← Alive with Steve Burns
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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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Hey there. Before we dive in, just a quick heads up. This episode explores America's deep rooted relationship with guns and how they have become just so intertwined with our national identity and culture. And when we recorded this one, I guess it was late last summer, it was already fairly complex for me because I'm very pro gun control and I've always been fairly wary of firearms. But given recent tragic events in Minnesota, this episode might hit a little differently for some. So if an objective conversation about guns and gun culture feels a little too much or overwhelming, believe me, understood. I get it. So I just wanted to acknowledge that and give you a heads up before we jump in. You look fantastic, by the way. Hey, there you are. Great to see you. Come on in. Welcome to Alive. Okay, here's a question for you today. You ready? How do you feel about guns? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I think it's. I think it's nearly impossible not to have a strong reaction to that question. There's tea if you want tea. I'm making tea. So here's something that might surprise you. I am a gun owner. Yeah. Believe me, no one is as surprised that Steve owns a gun as Steve, believe me. But here's how that happened. So two summers ago, I was standing right out here and I heard a little cry coming from the woods. And an itty bitty, teeny weeny, adorable little fawn with its spots still on. The thing was like this big. Comes zipping out of the woods, pursued by a whole ass bear, a black bear. Now, I live up here on this mountain and I've seen bears before. You know, I've seen them in the woods from a safe distance, and honestly, they look kind of cute. They're like, oh, hey, Steve, nice weather we're having today, or whatever. They look gentle almost. I had no idea that they wanted to murder and kill itty bitty, beautiful, little tiny fonts. But apparently they do. And this thing was like 20ft away from me, max, and it was looking at me and I clapped at it and I said, hey, bear. Get out of here, bear. Nothing. It just stared at me. I had one of those, like, air horns. I emptied the whole thing on this bear. Nothing just stared at me. What became abundantly clear was that this bear was not afraid of me at all. Here you go. What was also clear is that I was very afraid of it. And I asked my, my neighbors about this and they all said the same thing. They all said, hey, Steve, cool story. You want a shotgun, right? So the next day I went out and bought a shotgun. And just like that, I was a very unlikely gun owner, which made sense because Bear right here's where it gets wild. Last year, I went out and bought another gun. I bought a little small.22 Pew Pew rifle. Not because I needed it, simply because I. I thought it would be fun. What the hell is that about? Like, who am I? I never for a moment considered myself a gun guy. I mean, I grew up kind of around guns, but I spent most of my life in New York City, and I basically believed that guns were mostly unnecessary and even reckless, even, you know? And yet here I am now, a dude with two guns in a safe upstairs. And I can't help but feel that that says something about me, something totally new. I can't help but feel that owning guns has changed at least a part of my identity, because guns are identity markers. Right. They're kind of bumper stickers almost. In a way, they're identity markers for us individually, but also culturally, also nationally, if you think about it. And today I'm wondering, how did that happen? How did guns become so central to our culture? What do you think? Interesting. Interesting. You know what? Let's go. Okay. Today's guest is Stephen Gutowski. He is the founder of the Reload, an independent publication dedicated to clear fact driven reporting on firearms in America. A veteran journalist and firearms instructor, he's a frequent CNN guest. His work has been cited across the political spectrum for its rigor, its fairness. He approaches one of the most polarizing issues in American life. Without slogans, without talking points, insisting on sober, impartial exam of how guns shaped our culture and shape our laws and our lives. I am fully aware that this is a conversation that often generates more heat than light, but he is committed to bringing clarity and context, which is exactly why I wanted to talk to. Oh, he's here. Here we go.
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A
Hey.
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B
Hey, Stephen. How you doing?
- [07:12]
A
I'm doing all right. How are you?
- [07:14]
B
I'm doing great. It is. It's great to. To be with you today. Thank you so much for stopping by the porch here.
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A
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
Why is owning a gun so such a defining aspect of personality, of identity? And why does it make me feel like I have a foot in a culture that I don't belong in? And I'm wondering, how did that happen in America? Like, how did firearms become so deeply woven into our national identity and our personal identities? I'm looking for, like, a historical.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Context of the gun in the United States.
- [07:56]
A
There's a lot of different reasons why people might own guns. And the, the. So it gets fairly complex. Right. There's additionally a whole historical context in America, especially around firearms ownership because it's not just about hunting or just about personal self defense. There's also a political aspect to it or political philosophy behind it that is, is fairly unique in America because as a country we were founded on an armed revolution. And a lot of people hold that those core values very closely. And one of the ways to express that for a lot of people is to buy firearms, to own firearms and to. They buy into this concept of that an armed populace is harder to oppress. Right. That's that resistant towards tyranny. And that's a huge part of our entire founding ethos, our founding mythos is about resisting the tyranny of King George. Right. And so that, that's one thing I think that really sets apart America as a culture from a lot of other countries where you don't have that same history. And I think it also gets to another part of sort of American culture which is this idea of rugged individualism that even if you're not particularly into firearms, that's still, that's, it's an even more pervasive, I think, idea that Americans have about themselves, that they want to be self reliant, that they want to be prepared. And that is a big part of gun culture as well.
- [09:30]
B
I'm just trying to drill down on what exactly that, that, that impetus at that stage in American history was that we carried through. I think it is as much to do with the rugged idea as it is with the individual idea. There's a sense of I want to be perceived as rugged, I want to be rugged because that ruggedness meets my level of threat perception. Does that make sense?
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A
Yeah. And look, America is unique in another sense here as well. You had the revolution on the east coast of the country and you know, guns were associated with the militia and throwing off the tyranny of England and, and you know, all these positive attributes for why people wanted to have firearms. But then there was also, you know, the, the move west and the frontier life that Americans really idolized that as well. Going out into the wilderness and carving out a plot of land for yourself and your family to live off of and that, you know, required you to self reliant. And firearms are a big part of that as a, more as a, a tool of survival than a tool of, you know, liberty or what have you. But those two things are connected and they developed in our, over our history as America as we've expanded westward. And people really idealize that aspect of American culture, of the frontiersmen, of the, the settlers, you know, and that also plays into why, you know, what, especially people who own guns, how they view them, right? It's not, as you mentioned, just a tool, even though it is a tool, even though it is a practical implement, you know, it also carries a lot of cultural weight here in America that it doesn't necessarily carry in other parts of the world.
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Herobred is offering 10 off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code Steve at checkout that's steve@h e r o.com CEO every year I tell myself that I'm going to be a dude who plans his meals. And every year I fail at becoming a dude who plans his meals. That's why Marley Spoon is so important to me. Some nights I feel like cooking. Some nights I. I just want something easy. And some nights I want something immediately. Marley Spoon adapts with me, right? And I love that. I get like over a hundred recipes every week. Some of it's comfort food, some of it's light and, and some of it's classic and it's all very well balanced and the ingredients are awesome. And when I really don't feel like cooking, which is sometimes they have these amazing prepared meals which are clutch. You just heat, eat and done. Ooh. And they even started doing these tray bake dinners. You know, you just kind of slide them in there. It's all in one tray and then poof, it is done and it's really, really good. Marley Spoon makes eating well doable. So this year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley spoon. Head to marley spoon.com offer/alive for up to 25 free meals. That's right. Up to 25 free meals with Marley Spoon. That's Marley Spoon Offer alive for up to 25 free meals. Hello and welcome to another installment of Just a Thought with Steve Burns, brought to you by BetterHelp. This is the part of the show where I just kind of sit down in a chair and share with you some of the thoughts that have been rattling around in my mind. No solutions, no 10 step plans or anything like that. Just a thought. So anyway, lately I've been thinking that the holidays, and in particular Valentine's Day seems almost specifically created to make me want to self immolate in the greeting cards aisle. Do you ever feel like that? Yeah, I mean, there's a ton of this background messaging, you know, people clinking champagne glasses, the heart shaped box thing, prefix menus, always for two. It all creates this low grade vibe that's everywhere that somehow being without a partner is a problem. Like it's an acute medical condition. Like something's very, very wrong. And in my mind, boy, that can really create some negative thought patterns, right? Like, am I doing something wrong? Am I somehow behind? Am I out of sync with the rhythm of the natural world? And then that creates like some shame, you know, and also makes me wonder if all of the solitude I have is really just sort of loneliness and I don't know, that can get really heavy and when it does, for me, I find it extremely useful to talk to someone, a professional, I mean, because you and I talk all the time in this way and we listen in this way. But what we do here in this cold barn is not therapy. A therapist is a professional who you talk to live, who can help you untangle those negative thoughts and help you see those patterns that you might not be able to see yourself. Right. This space is about asking questions. Therapy is about doing the work. Anyway, so here's what I'm thinking. Maybe being unpartnered is not necessarily a problem that needs to be solved. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's just a thought. Anyway, thanks for listening. Let's get back to that interview. But I've always wondered, and you can tell me what the stats are on this, is that even applicable anymore? Because the British had guns and then we also had guns. So that was guns versus guns. Don't governments now have robot drones and all sorts of spaceships and all sorts of things that make conventional firearms sort of not something that you could even really retaliate with?
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A
Yeah, no, I mean that's, that's one of the debates I think we still see a lot in modern America over the efficacy of an armed populace. Like, does it, is it really still possible to, you know, prevent tyranny when the government has so much more advanced weaponry than the weapons that we have available to civilians? And you even see it with. Former President Joe Biden has made remarks to the along those lines even at the Supreme Court. We had conservative Justice Antonin Scalia during the US V Heller decision, the one that was a landmark decision that said the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own guns and it struck down DC's handgun band. But in there you had Scalia writing about how the, the preparatory clause of the Second Amendment is separate from the opera operatory clause. And because the second Amendment says a well regulated militia being necessary, the freedom of a, or to the security of a free state, the right and the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. And so it talks about that one of the purposes of people being armed is to keep the state free to secure a free state. And he said, well, he was talking about in America we have a ban on new sales of automatic weapons. And you know, he's talking about how that's not necessarily implicated. And he's kind of rejecting the idea that, he's kind of questioning the idea that you could still have armed Civilians resist tyranny today with the disparity between the government's arms and, and civilians. But, and so it is something that, that's questioned. It's something, you know, people, yeah, have a lot of debate about whether this is true. I would say the only thing, I guess I would say there is like you can look at the most advanced military in the world, the United States military, and just look at how we've performed in some, some of these roles of occupying other countries over the last 30, 40, 50 years, and see that just because you have the most advanced military weaponry doesn't necessarily mean that you're always going to prevail.
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B
It's another issue that I've always had with this, where I've always not understood it is, okay, so if you're saying the government, any government might want to tyranny me, so I need these guns to protect myself from the government. But eventually they could have ways of creating tyranny that don't even involve guns, that don't even really involve conventional weapons at all, that could just involve information, that could involve lasers or brown notes or all sorts of technologies. So then you need another technology and then they have another technology and then you need another technology. That's just a logical fallacy that's infinite regress. Right, right. That, that ends with everyone with a laser cannon mounted on a space tiger or something weird. You know, it's just not practical. At least it seems to me that, that, that way of thinking seems illogical to me.
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A
So there, there certainly is a level of sort of a preparedness spiral where you can kind of go down a rabbit hole. And you definitely see this, I think in the gun carry world, like, you know, I carry a firearm and, and it's easy to think yourself into, well, what if my, what if I get into this unlikely situation where I need to use my firearm for self defense? Right. It's not likely to happen. I've never had it happen personally and I've been caring for years. Okay, well, what if my gun, my main gun malfunctions? Well, maybe I should carry a backup gun. And you can, you know, you can, and you can look at real world examples. I don't. Do you? But some people do.
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B
Wow. I see. Now this is, this is fascinating to me, Stephen. The idea of, okay, I'm going to open, carry or conceal carry this weapon and then to say, actually if that one fails, I need a backup parachute on my ankle. Right, right. I gotta wonder if that person takes care of their health, for example, because There could be other threats to their life that they are not so careful about, so cautious about it, do not have safeguards in place for their daily life. As they're walking around, I gotta wonder what is special about the threat that you can solve with a gun? Like, again, I think this goes back to why is it such a potent symbol? Why do people place that at the, at the core of their identity? Because it is different than other threats. Right. I wonder if it's about the simplicity of it. It's about. There is, there's no arguing, there's no nuance anymore. There's no discussion. It's, it's a black and white solution to the perceived threat. Yeah, it's on, it's an on off button.
- [24:18]
A
I think that that's, there's some truth to that. Right. If you're prone to that kind of preparedness thinking it can lead certainly to, to a rabbit hole. And I think you have to. You see that as well. On going back to your original point about kind of, well, if the idea is to resist tyranny and the government has more and more advanced weapons, are we all just going to get to a point where we're all just armed to the teeth all the time?
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B
Why do you carry. What, what's, what's the threat you perceive?
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A
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. It's, it's not so much about. I think, and look, it's going to be different for everyone. But I think people who approach carrying a firearm responsibly do it again just out of concern for what could happen. Not that something is likely to happen, but that it has happened before to other people. And if you were in that situation, you would want to be able to do something about it, to pretend to protect yourself or those you care about around you. Right. That's, that's the main concept of why, why I carry and why I think most people carry a firearm.
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B
How did the firearm, how did the gun become like, how did it go from a tool to almost a sacred object? That, that, that symbolizes so powerfully our identity that we cannot infringe it at all when it, in, in my perception, in talking to you, doesn't always match its utility, it doesn't always match the threat level. It's not always the answer, but yet it's always protected as such. Makes me, I'm not casting a judgment on that. I'm just saying there's something about this as it relates to who we think we are as people as a country, that this has There's a sacredness to the way we treat this tool that I've never fully understood, you know, and it's real. I'm really curious about that, and it's really fascinating to me. What do you. Do you think America is unique in. In this regard?
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A
I do think it is unique. We do own a lot more firearms as civilians in the United States than anywhere else in the world. You know, we own more firearms as American civilians than the rest of the world's militaries combined. Wait, say that people. Don't say that again. People don't understand the scale of American gun ownership. We as civilians own more firearms, small arms, than the entire world's military is combined. According to the Small Arms Survey, the scale of American gun ownership is much beyond what people think it is. It is. We buy more firearms in a month as civilians than. Than the entire Marine Corps has. For instance, I, I've stockpile.
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B
I heard you say recently that it's a million a month.
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A
Yes, it's. It's a million month. It's actually down significantly. But yes, according to the National Shooting Sports foundation, which is the industry trade group, they do a analysis of the FBI's background check system. And yes, it's been. It was a million a month for, for like five years straight. We've actually been on a bit of a downturn in, as far as the gun industry is concerned and the number of sales. But even at the level we're at today, it's, it's. It's beyond what people think it is. There's a lot more firearms in the United States than people understand.
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B
What you said that blew my mind. That civilians in the United States own more guns than the militaries of the world collectively. That's wild, man. Do we. What's. Do we have a number? How many. Do we. What's our estimate for how many guns there are in the United States?
- [28:13]
A
Yeah, the most recent estimate from Small Arms Survey is a little old at this point, but it was over 400 million, which is, you know, this where you hear people will say there's more firearms than people in the United States. And that's true.
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B
Okay, wow. So there are more guns than human people, and there are 400 million guns. How does that. That's wild. How does that break down? How many of those are pistols? How many of those are automatic weapons? How many of those are just for hunting? How many of those do cops own? Like what. What's the breakdown of those?
- [28:49]
A
Yeah, so if you look at that small arm survey, which Is there's a, it's a nonprofit that tries to put together estimates of all the guns in the world, right, from and who owns them, whether civilians or law enforcement or military. And civilian number is 400 million in the U.S. the number of all military small arms that doesn't include jets and, and tanks and aircraft carriers. Right, Just, just the guns to, to, to be clear, but they put that number at 122 million. So American civilians own almost four times the number of, I guess it's a little over three times the number of guns that all of the world's militaries have. And then if you look at law enforcement, global law enforcement, they put that estimate at 22.7 million. So it's really not close. That's for all the law enforcement in all the world compared to just American civilians at 400 million. And you could even go down, drill down on that and say that the National Shooting Sports foundation is the gun industries trade group. They do an estimate every so often of how many AR15s and AK47s civilians own. Now these are semi automatic versions of these guns. Be clear, the National Firearms act makes it much more difficult to own the fully automatic versions of the machine guns. But you can own the semi automatic where each trigger pull fires one round. You can get around that, they estimate. Well, you can, there's techniques for like pulling the trigger faster, the things like bump stocks which were, you know, controversial after the Las Vegas shooting. But for the most part, most people own just the semi automatic version of these, these firearms. But even still, and that's just one kind of rifle. Now AR15 is the most popular rifle in the United States, which is also one of the most controversial. It's shown up in a lot of high profile mass shootings. Right. And so it's become a very hotly debated firearm in the United States. Some states ban them their sale, but most states allow them. And there was a federal ban from 1994 to 2004, but that sunsetted and is no longer in effect, though some people want to bring it back, of course. But if we just look at how many, how many of those guns are there? Well, the National Shooting Sports Foundation's most recent estimate says there's 25 million.
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B
Wow.
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A
So that's more AR15s and AK47s in the United States and similar firearms then the entire world's police force has in their off of all firearms that they own. So wow, pretty big disparity.
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B
Okay, so imagine you're on a first date and you think it's going well. You don't want to just ask questions about the weather or just make small talk. You want to get to the real questions, right? The important stuff that, that, that, that will reveal whether or not this could go somewhere. Well, the same goes if you're hiring. You want to get the most important questions early to see if someone's actually right for the role. That's why you need ZipRecruiter. When you post a job, ZipRecruiter suggests screening questions that help you zero in on the best candidates faster. And when I say faster, I mean that that's the best thing about ZipRecruiter. They have that matching technology that right away put you in contact with the candidates who already check the boxes you need. So ask key questions and hire faster. With ZipRecruiter, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free@ziprecruiter.com alive. That's ZipRecruiter.com alive. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Look, I know you're wildly busy, and I know that because literally everyone is. And that's why I appreciate anything that can quietly make my life easier. And that's where MyDEA comes in. They make genuinely wow worthy appliances. They take the work off your plate. Like they've got that one touch Autofill French door fridge. You press a button, boop. Fills your cup perfectly. Like the Jetsons and their dishwashers have a three stage total drying system and they even pop open when you're done. The future is here. And the mydea range, well, it's five burners, three racks and endless possibilities. So whether you're actually cooking or just really want to look like you're actually cooking, the point is, when the everyday stuff takes care of itself, you get time back for you and for your people and for doing absolutely nothing. And that is a win. So go to mydea.com to see how you can bring home a little wow today. That's mydea.com Hiya, Julia.
- [33:45]
C
Louis Dreyfus here from the Wiser Than Me podcast, among other things. And I've got a bit of a hot take. Our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. We don't always know how or where our food is grown. And if we throw food scraps in the garbage, we don't think about where it's going. Or at least we try not to. One way that I get back a little of that Connection is by using my mill food recycler. Sure. Mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never ever smells. But this is also really important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens if I wanted backyard chickens. And I don't know, maybe I do now, maybe I don't. Anyway, maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, just try mill's risk free trial and just live with it for a while. Go to mil.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [35:22]
B
I'm not, I'm not good at math, but I'm just crunching the numbers in my brain. That's got to mean that most people who own, a lot of people who own guns own a shitload of guns, right? Like a lot of guns. Let's say I'm someone who, as you said before, My, my threat perception, the reason that I have a gun, specifically an automatic weapon, semi automatic weapon, like an AR15 is, is related to this threat of tyranny or related to. I'm going to have to fight with it, right? Why would I want five of them? You know, so it's a good question. The, the sheer towering quantity of guns feels more like an obsession than a rational reaction. I mean, we have four times the, the world's military combined. This feels wildly unnecessary to me. Well, just, I've never heard that stat before. That's just my gut reaction to it.
- [36:33]
A
Yeah. No, and look, I think people don't have a very good grasp of exactly how many guns Americans own. And so that's why I bring up the stats like that, because this is. This. I'm sure this will sound weird for somebody who doesn't own guns, but the hobby aspect of it reminds me most of working on my car, on my jeep and building my computer. Very similar interesting sort of, you know, experience to it. And when I built my computer, I built it from parts that I went out and got because I'm a little bit nerdy on that front. You know, I like the tech stuff. I like building it with my hands. And when I work on my Jeep, it's the same thing I want to be able to. To. You know, you have that mechanical side of. Of the hobby of. Then guns are just like that. You. There's a mechanical side to it where you are physically building the firearms, and there's sort of the parts picking out the parts to go together in the way that you want them. There's. There's a lot of that aspect to it that I think if you're not a gun owner, or even if you're not a hobbyist gun owner, that you might not perceive right away. And so that can explain why people have these collections.
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B
Yeah, I get that.
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A
That and why a lot of people might have them. Not just a few people who are, like, really, really obsessively into it or are doomsday preppers or whatever. You know, there's. Normal people will also have these. There's reasons that they get into it.
- [38:01]
B
I fully understand that. I mean, as. As an object, they're really interesting. You know, my favorite part so far of owning these guns is cleaning them. Like, I'm like, oh, this is cool. Like, it comes apart and you can do this and.
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A
Which sounds strange to a lot of people that it would be fun, probably your gun.
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B
It probably sounds strange a lot of people to hear it. Steve from Blue's Clues talking about cleaning his shotgun. It sounds strange to me to say it, to be honest. So we've identified the gun as a huge cultural marker for the United States. And our relationship to guns does indeed make us unique on this earth in many ways that I didn't even realize before we started this conversation. But it's also an identity marker, and it does kind of bifurcate things. Right. People do tend to fall passionately on either side of gun ownership, really, and gun regulation. What do you think are a few things that both sides get wrong about each other?
- [39:11]
A
That's a good question. You know, I think there's a lot of skepticism of motivations that you'll see, especially in the political realm and the political debates over this stuff where, you know, on one side you have, like, gun rights activists who just think that those on the other side are trying to strip them of their rights, you know, that they're coming after their rights, that they. That they, you know, don't understand them and that they despise them and they. That they're coming for them, essentially. You know, they're trying to take away something that they view as. As, you know, a human right, that this right to own firearms and that they've, as you've. We've gone over here, view as part of their. Their identity of who they are. And then on the other side, I think you have a lot of gun control activists who think that gun owners are callous. Right. They don't care about the harm being inflicted with firearms, that they aren't interested in trying to solve that issue at all, that they're uncaring as well. So, you know, I think that's where you. You see a lot of breakdown, and that's not, of course, contained to the gun debate in the United States. Right. This is something that we see in a lot of different issues and. And just talking past each other and not having any empathy for the other person's point of view as well. Not that. Not that having empathy for someone's point of view means you need to change your own, but. But I definitely think that's lacking oftentimes in these sorts of fights.
- [40:58]
B
Amen, man. I couldn't agree more, Stephen. This was awesome, man. This was really interesting. This was a very, very rational conversation and very, very informative, and it went way longer than I thought it would. I apologize. I hope we didn't take up too much of your afternoon, but I. But I was learning a lot.
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A
I enjoyed it.
- [41:23]
B
And anyway, man, thank you so much for coming by and thank you so much for. For sharing all of your knowledge with us. Really appreciate it.
- [41:32]
A
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
- [41:34]
B
Bye. Okay, that was very rational, very reasonable, highly informative. I learned a lot of stuff. I wrote down. The gun is more than a tool. It is a symbol of cultural identity. Yeah, clearly, right? The plunger is a tool. We do not bequeath it to our grandchildren, for example. Oh, Another thing is we're. We're so drawn. One of the reasons we're so drawn to guns is because of how they make us feel, not just because of what they do. They elicit feelings. They make us feel safe. They make us feel powerful. For example, the last thing I wrote down is there are 400 million firearms in the United States, and that is nearly four times the number of guns that all the world's militaries have combined. And that. I mean, that's. I. Yeah, let's go outside. Okay. So guns clearly mean a lot of things to a lot of people there. Their sport, recreation, their protection, their survival. But culturally, they're a symbol, A symbol of power. Power over King George, power over the west. Power over each other, power over bears. And so yeah, I mean, I get that. That makes a form of sense to me. I can see why someone would shape their identity around such a potent symbol of power. It's not for me though. How about you? What do you shape your identity around? Yeah, I can see that. Well, listen, thanks for coming by. Thanks for doing this with me. It really means a lot. And you look great. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonade Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemon on a Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple Podcasts, head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.
- [45:15]
C
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