You Grew Up With Me, But We Never Met

Summary

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Alive with Steve Burns

Episode: "You Grew Up With Me, But We Never Met"

Date: April 8, 2026
Host: Steve Burns
Guest: Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster, media psychologist and professor at Chapman University

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the concept of "parasocial relationships" — the emotional bonds formed between audiences and media personalities, like Steve Burns himself. The conversation asks: Are these relationships good for us? Are they real? Can they be harmful? Steve and Dr. Tukachinski Forster dissect the psychological mechanisms, the benefits and dangers, and the reality of these odd, one-sided connections that so many of us carry from childhood into adulthood — especially those who grew up with television “friends” like Steve.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is a Parasocial Relationship?

• Definition and Mechanisms:
  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster explains:

    “Parasocial relationship is an imaginary relationship. It’s a feeling of intimacy and closeness with a media personality or someone we don’t actually know in real life, but we feel like we know them, usually through the media.” (04:38)

  • Parasocial interaction is the illusion of give-and-take between viewer and persona, a technique Steve habitually uses:

    “Every time when you look directly into the camera to maintain eye contact with the viewers, when you ask them questions and pause and wait…those create this feeling that he sees me back.” (05:14)

• Breaking the Fourth Wall: Essential in children’s television, and now in new media, to foster emotional bonds.

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The Realness and Benefits of Parasocial Relationships

• Intimacy in Make-Believe:
  • Steve’s framing: “It’s feeling something is real in a shared space that is not. That’s the way I’ve always made it make sense to me…this is not real, but the feeling is real.” (06:25)
• Social and Emotional Role:
  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster notes:

    “There are numerous studies about the benefits of parasocial relationships…You were able to bring that caring adult figure into the living rooms of those children … and create a relationship with them through which they can learn.” (08:35)

  • Parasocial relationships help children learn, model good behavior, find comfort, and can even promote positive social attitudes in adults through identification with diverse characters/celebrities.
  • Media provides a “magic window” — allowing viewers to feel connection across social, cultural divides.

    “Media is that magic window that allows you to be friends with someone who is different from you.” (12:46)

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Are There Dangers or Downsides?

• The Uneasy Illusion:
  • Steve’s concern: “I feel like I am perhaps inviting people to invest in an illusion, in something that is false in a way that is real. So that’s where I think there might be danger.” (19:11)
• Appropriate Suspension of Disbelief:
  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster: “Most adults can responsibly engage in suspension of disbelief. It’s not much different from going to a horror movie and experiencing genuine fear from something they know is not real.” (20:00)
  • Benefits include emotional support — even for adults.
  • Research shows writing or thinking about a favorite celebrity can boost mood or self-esteem, especially during rough patches.

    “That adults experience that too. There is research that shows how thinking about your favorite celebrity or writing a letter … has psychological boosts for you.” (21:01)

• When It Turns Unhealthy:
  • Famous outlier examples: celebrity stalkers, but these are rare and associated with underlying mental illness.
  • “It’s not that a normal parasocial relationship just becomes too intense…some people have mental health issues, and one way they manifest is in this way.” (22:49)
• Idealization & Unrealistic Expectations:
  • Steve reflects anxiously on fan comments like “You raised me” or “You are my safe space”:

    “None of those things are true…am I not doing harm by perpetuating that relationship?” (24:09)

  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster acknowledges “parasocial attachment” can be intense, even mimicking secure/insecure childhood attachment.
  • People blur fiction/reality boundaries even with obvious fictional characters—suggesting the brain’s tendency to emotionally connect is powerful.

    “Even when people look at fictional characters and actors, ... the characters that the actor plays influences how people perceive the actor's own personality ... it’s hard to maintain that distinction.” (25:03)

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Do Parasocial Relationships Replace Real Ones?

• Not a Replacement, But a Supplement:
  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster: “People who form stronger, healthier relationships in real life are also more prone to developing parasocial relationships…It’s not a replacement for them. It’s a supplement.” (29:18)
  • They're most helpful to those without access to social connection (e.g., during lockdowns), but don’t generally make people less social.

    “If you are wired for social connection, you connect for real, and in the media. It’s not media instead of social; it’s in addition to it.” (31:00)

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Romantic Parasocial Relationships & Role in Identity

• Origin and Function:
  • Parasocial crushes are common: “About 80% of Americans have had at least one parasocial romantic relationship in their life.” (33:53)
  • Stronger parasocial romantic attachment → more idealized beliefs about romance, which can impact satisfaction in real relationships (though causality is unclear).
  • These fantasies, while unrealistic, offer a safe ‘sandbox’ for self-discovery, especially in adolescence or after major life changes.

    “It is better for people to have this imaginary playground and kind of through imaginary play start figuring out who they are…” (37:46)

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The Blurred Line: Fandom and Parasociality

• Difference between Fandom and Parasocial Relationship:
  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster: “Fandom is not necessarily about a persona…Not all fandom is parasocial relationship and not all parasocial relationship involve fandom.” (45:46)
  • Even within real personal relationships, there’s an imaginary component.

    “All of our relationships … have an imaginary component to them.” (42:16)

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The “Other Side”: The Parasocial Object’s Experience

• Steve’s Confession:
  • Realizes he too is investing emotionally: “I am in a parasocial relationship with you every bit as much as you are in a parasocial relationship with me.” (47:00)
  • The act of disclosure (sharing personal stories, being vulnerable) fulfills his own needs for connection:

    “I don’t really have that kind of intimacy in my real life, you know. I mean, I’m doing it right now…” (50:27)

  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster notes this is understudied, but the experience of being the focus of so many imaginary relationships is psychologically complex.

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Are We Friends? The Nature of the Connection

• The Big Question:
  • Dr. Tukachinski Forster: “It’s not real, but it feels real…it presses all the real buttons in your psychic. And it can have real effects, real effects on your attitudes, on your beliefs, on your mood, on your perception of self in very real ways.” (53:07)
• Endings Are Difficult:
  • When parasocial relationships end, it can feel like real grief, especially for children.

    “It comes with a sense of loss. It comes with profound sadness. It follows a lot of the same trajectories of grief that we experience in real life.” (54:15)

  • Steve reflects on people traumatized by his exit from “Blue’s Clues,” and his own loss when public rumor “killed off” his persona online.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Are you really my friend?” — Steve Burns opens the show, laying bare the central question. (00:00)
• “This connection has gotten much bigger and we're still doing it…don’t you ever wonder what it is we’re doing and how much of it is real?” — Steve Burns (02:44)
• “The health of the illusion depends on remembering that there is one.” — Steve Burns (57:45)
• “It’s not real, but it feels real.” — Dr. Tukachinski Forster (53:07)
• “We’re people who don’t know each other, choosing to treat each other as friends. And that’s good.” — Steve Burns’ closing reflection (58:30)
• “What if we treated the stranger simply as a friend we’ve not yet met? How might that change, like, everything?” — Steve’s optimistic final thought (59:15)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00-04:20 — Steve’s introduction and opening existential questions
• 04:20-08:35 — Defining parasocial relationships: mechanisms and origins
• 08:35-13:46 — Benefits for children and society at large
• 19:20-24:08 — Discussing the dangers and limitations, illusion vs. reality
• 29:18-32:05 — Do parasocial relationships replace real ones?
• 33:53-39:43 — Role of parasocial romantic relationships in adolescent and adult development
• 42:16-47:00 — Parasociality outside media, imaginary aspects in all relationships, and difference from fandom
• 47:00-53:07 — The "other side": Steve’s own emotional investment and experience as the object
• 53:07-55:03 — Are we friends? The answer: not really, but it is real in some ways
• 55:03-57:41 — Loss, grief, and the end of parasocial bonds

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Tone & Style

• Reflective, vulnerable, and occasionally self-deprecating (Steve’s trademark gentle delivery)
• Intellectually rigorous, but accessible (Dr. Tukachinski Forster explaining research clearly)
• Empathetic and inviting — audience addressed warmly and treated as co-conspirators in wondering about life’s complications

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Closing Reflection

Steve closes with a gentle but profound insight: these relationships, while not real friendships in the technical, mutual sense, are nonetheless meaningful. In a world rife with loneliness, perhaps treating strangers as friends we've just not met is a radical, empathetic act — the very spirit of what it means to be “Alive.”

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For listeners: This episode offers deep insight into why a TV host from your childhood could feel like a real friend, and how, in many ways, that feeling is both healthier and more complicated than you might have guessed — for you, and for Steve.

Transcript

[Steve Burns]

Let me ask you again in the way that I've always spoken to you, right through the camera. What do you think? Are we friends? Hey. Hi. There you are. Come on in. Why don't you. You know, why don't you. Why don't you have a seat? I made hot chocolate this time. Here you go. Yeah. So there's just something I think we should talk about. What are we. I mean, this relationship. What. What is this? What. What are we doing? Because, I mean, we've been doing this for a long time, right? I mean, we. When I first met you, it was what, like 20 years ago? More than that. And I was just some dude pretending that he could hear you through a camera, and you were just this little kid sitting on the carpet believing that I could, Except I couldn't. Not really. But somehow we were pretending and. And it felt real, didn't it? I mean, it did to me. Except it wasn't. Not exactly. And. And now everything's different, right, because we're grown up and. And the screen has gotten much smaller, but somehow this connection has gotten much bigger and we're still doing it. Right? And I'm not trying to overcomplicate a podcast, but don't you ever think about that? Don't you ever wonder what it is we're doing and how much of it is real? I guess what I'm really asking is, Are you really my friend? Okay, let's go. Okay. So Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster is a media psychologist, researcher and professor at Chapman University, where she studies how we form emotional bonds with people who aren't really, really there. From beloved TV show hosts to social media personalities, she's one of the world's leading experts on parasocial relationships. They are the one sided connections that develop with performers and characters and public figures. Now her research explores how media shapes our sense of intimacy, morality, and empathy, and what happens when that line between the real and the performed and the mediated starts to blur. She's written extensively about the psychological consequences of these connections, including how they can both comfort and confuse us and also what it is they reveal about us and our deep sort of social instincts to connect. And she's. She's here. Hello. How are you?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

I'm great. Thank you for having me. How are you?

[Steve Burns]

Oh, I'm doing. I'm doing great. It's. I'm really excited to talk to you today. So thank you so much for being here. So when we talk about a parasocial relationship, what are we actually describing?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

So parasocial relationship is an imaginary relationship. It's a feeling of intimacy and closeness and bonding with a media personality or someone that we don't actually know in real life, but we feel like we know them, usually through the media. And it's something that can evolve over time. It's something that can be evolved through parasocial interaction, which is another term. So parasocial interaction is this illusion of a give and take between the media personality and the media consumer. And that's actually something that you are the master of. So you do that a lot. Right. Every time when you look directly into the camera to maintain eye contact with the viewers, when you ask them questions and pause and wait for them to contemplate. Every time when you're like, cheers, and I'm making tea, do you want some? You do that all the time. So those create this feeling that he sees me back. This is the interaction part. And like those repeated interactions, you don't have to have them. You can develop a relationship without that. But this breaking the fourth wall is one of the devices to foster that experience.

[Steve Burns]

Yes, that's the primary device that I have been using over and over again for 30 years. The way I've always described it to myself, a parasocial relationship, is that it's feeling something is real in a shared space. That is not right. That's the way that I've always made it make sense to me because. Because it recognizes both sides. It says, this is not real, but the feeling is. Is real. Right. And I really wanted to.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

I like that.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. And I really wanted to talk about this. We really wanted to talk to you about this because it made sense to me. When you were five, right. And you were sitting on your grandma's carpet and you were pointing out clues to me, it was an illusion then. It was a trick then. But it was in service of curriculum. And it. And it all made sense because it was educational children's television. But now we're doing it still 20 some years later, and we're adults and we understand that I can't really hear what's on the other side of the screen. We understand that this is, as you say, a highly mediated relationship. And yet we're investing in it in ways that are emotional, in ways that feel very real for me too. And I've just always wondered, what the hell are we doing? You know, is this a net positive thing, or is this just a really highly dysfunctional use of media? That's. That's where my brain goes, you know, that's my concern. And I'M less interested in like dismantling some kind of bond that is there than I am in carefully examining it with you today, you know, so I don't know. That was, that was a long statement. I don't know what the question is. I guess my question is, are there benefits to this or are we doing something bad?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Of course there are benefits to it. And the first one that you mentioned, that you did it in service of serving educational content for children like we learned best through relationships. And there are numerous studies about the benefits of parasocial relationships or modeling and promoting good causes. And, you know, I have to confess, I'm too old to, you know, grow up and watching you and my kids are too young for that. So I. So I'm kind of the lost generation that I didn't have to experience your firsthand. But I know so much about your show because I use it in my class as an example. You know, it's, you know, Mr. Rogers neighborhood and Sesame street and all of those and Dora the Explorer. They're all great examples of very well created media. This was very thoughtful about engaging children. And in an ideal world there would be an adult in their room doing that with them or talking to them like that or. But it's not a realistic expectation for everyone. You were able to bring that caring adult figure into the living rooms of those children and create a relationship with them through which they can learn. They can learn their letters and numbers, but also build their character and soothe themselves and all of those positive effects that real relationship could deliver but realistically couldn't. And you were there as a surrogate. So that was a very important role. And it continues into adulthood because as you pointed out now your original viewers are adults. They no longer think that you live inside the TV set as they might have at the age of three. I think that today's children grow in a different media environment and maybe they don't have that experience, but young studies from the 80s and 90s would show that preschool children would really think that the TV is a box and that contains inside of a Sesame street that continues to leave. All the characters continue doing what they're doing when the TV is off. So the TV set is just like a magic window into, you know, those real personalities that continue living in physically inside the box or some magical place that you can pick through the tv. So you grow up and you don't longer believe that, but you can still engage in that game, you know, so it's more, maybe takes more suspension of disbelief to do that, but you can still reap some of those benefits. So you can still use parasocial relationships to promote good causes. For example, Angelina Jolie, with her experience, right, when she was promoting genetic testing for breast cancer gene susceptibility, right, she made this op ed and it made a big splash. And research has shown that parasocial relationships with her was the biggest and most important factor in people actually going and searching for information about that person. Relationships with media personalities promoted various positive effects with questions of health, tolerance towards other social groups. It's an important tool in promoting positive, more harmonious intergroup relationships by developing a relationship with, you know, for example, let me restart one of the ways that we know in psychology to promote positive intergroup relationships is by developing a positive relationship with a member of that other group. Because sometimes it's the lack of knowledge, but also the anxiety that comes with this lack of knowledge and the negative stereotypes that you are familiar with that prevent developing those positive intergroup relationships. So sometimes it just takes having a good experience with one group member that is different from you and having it in a positive setting, a collaborative setting. The truth is that a lot of people live in very segregated communities. They don't have a lot of first hand experiences with members of the groups they don't like. All the information they get is negative or the experiences they have firsthand are negative. Media is that magic window that allows you to be friends with someone who is different from you. And we know that under certain conditions, this positive parasocial relationship with a member of a different group can generalize to the group at large.

[Steve Burns]

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[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

How they invest in the television and in Santa Claus and in all of these things. I understand that.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yes.

[Steve Burns]

But as an adult, to be investing in something illusory as if it is real.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Over and over again doesn't sound like a great idea to me. So for me, it's the whole point of this, what we're doing right now, and as I'm staring at this camera right now as though I can actually see you, is to level set this and make it more of an honest frame.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

I understand where your concern is coming from, and I would say maybe it is justified for a very tiny percent of people who have other challenges. And for them, this. Drawing those distinctions is difficult. But I think most adults can responsibly engage in suspension of disbelief. It's not much different from going to a horror movie and experiencing genuine fear from something that is, they know is not real. So I think this is within reasonable levels of suspension of disbelief when you do it with adults. And some, again, some of the benefits can be real. Like one of the benefits of parasocial relationships is that it's emotion has benefits from like a social, emotional, well, being perspective. So for individuals, starting with Mr. Reuters as an example with children, there is this research on how children that are. Are put in a situation that is hostile. They would seek Mr. Rogers for regulating their mood and feeling better. Like they have this person that looks at them and says, want to be my neighbor. And I want, you know, things that I want to be friends with you. And you are very special and you are my friend. And that's very reassuring. And that adults experience that too. Adults have that feeling too. So there is research that shows how thinking about your favorite celebrity or writing a letter, like not sending it, but just like kind of mentally doing, going through this process of thinking about your. Your celebrity has psychological boosts for you, especially if you are like, experiencing some social difficulties in that moment, or you feel worse about yourself in that moment. So you're kind of cheering up someone as if you were their friend. Maybe not at the same extent, but has same characteristics to it.

[Steve Burns]

I still wonder if, if all of that good is possible because someone is in a healthy way investing in the parasocial relationship with a suspension of disbelief. That is appropriate. Isn't it also possible to overdo that? You know, aren't there examples of when a parasocial relationship becomes very unhealthy?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Well, I mean, there are plenty of famous examples of stalkers and celebrity stalkers and, and people who would hurt, you know, like from Mark Chapman murdering John Lennon to. To John Hickley who wanted to impress Jodie Foster and draw her attention to him by trying to assassinate President Reagan. So there are famous examples of that. But it's not true that, you know, a regular, normal parasocial relationship just becomes too intense and anyone will become a dangerous stalker and assassin. It's. Some people have mental illness. Some people have real mental health issues, and they can be manifested in different ways. And one way in which they can be manifested is in this way. If it wasn't in this way, it probably would be in something else.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. But it seems there's got to be some room between, okay, this is just. This is regular fandom. This is parasocial. And, and. And a stalker. I, I'm interested in between the parasocial and stalker phase, I think, you know.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

For example, people say things to me all the time. They say, hey, Steve, you raised me. Which of course I did not. Now I always assume, well, that's just hyperbole. You know, they're just saying that, you know, of course I didn't. But then I wonder, you know, and then people say, steve, I watch you on the Internet and I've seen you do short form TikToks and you are the most wholesome person in the world. And I think, well, that's certainly not true. And then they say, you know, you are my safe space. And I'm thinking, what kind of relationship am I cultivating here? Because none of those things are true. None of them are. And if this person is centering any part of their life around that, am I not doing harm by perpetuating that relationship?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

I see what you mean. And I just have to quickly give a shout out to Dr. Gail Steaver, who is researching parasocial attachment, which is kind of a higher level of connecting to media personalities, where you like seeing them as your safe harbor, like that safe space when it comes with stronger separation and anxiety as well. Like think about attachment, like attachment to your caregiving figure growing up. And. And again, there are a lot of healing components to that. Like if that's what helps the person to get through their chemotherapy. That's. I'm giving examples from her, from her research on that, where parasocial attachment has a very strong positive effect on the psychic of the individuals. At the same time, yes, it is fictional and you feel like people completely lost the distinction between the fiction and reality. And I hear you. I'll give you even more extreme example of that if you wish. I. Even when people look at fictional characters and actors, most like I would say every adult will clearly know the distinction between the two and know that an actor is performing. It's just their job to deliver those lines in a compelling way. But nonetheless, the characters that the actor plays influences how people perceive the actor's own personality. So there have been a number of studies showing it again and again. People just blur those lines. They don't maintain a clear distinction between them. So of course it will be. And that's about when you know it's fiction. So of course, when you are supposedly representing yourself on the podcast or on. On the short right on TikTok, you is harder for people to remember that this is a certain personality that you're playing. That's not the Steve that you see. When you see, when you watch Tick Tock is not really the. The personality Steve that you would know if you were Steve's friend. But it's hard to maintain that distinction because again, even. Even if you were playing a completely fictional character with a different name and, you know, false beard, people will still have trouble separating them. So are you doing something unhealthy to people by fostering those Relationships, again, I think for most people it's not. It's, you know, part of it is entertainment and part of it, it has a real positive effect on people, be their well being or be, if you choose to promote positive causes, you have that power. You can leverage it to do good. Yeah. Can it also have some undesirable negative consequences like everything in life? Probably, yes.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

But again, probably it will be for people who are already, you know, have other issues. You weren't their issue. You might have been there, you know, the manifestation of that issue that they have.

[Steve Burns]

I get to a point though where I think, okay, this technology that we were talking about, which is almost entirely narrative driven, right. Which really relies on influence and stories and things. If we're relying more and more and more on that, does it become the baseline? Is it going to become, is it going to become what we expect from a human relationship? And if we're relying on a parasocial relationship, a quasi real relationship to be a safe space, are we less likely to look for an actually safe space in each other in reality?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

That's an excellent question. And I have two things I have a positive thing to say about it and more of a cautionary tale to tell on the upside. Since the 1980s, maybe even 70s, researchers, the genesis of empirical research and parasocial relationship came from this concern that do people develop parasocial relationships instead of social relationships? Does it replace social relationships? And they wanted to. So researchers were looking for an association between parasocial relationship and loneliness, or parasocial relationship and personality types that are more likely to have unsatisfying relationships with people who are more like, it's called avoidant attachment style. People who don't relate to others and trust others and create intimacy in relationships, people who are shy. And time and time again this has been debunked. They couldn't find that effect. What they did find is that people who form stronger, healthier relationships in real life are also more prone to developing parasocial relationships. So that avoidant types that can't relate in real life also don't relate to media personalities. Who does? People who have secure attachment, who have good and joy intimacy in relationships. And also the anxious people, the people who are like clinging relationships and don't let go and are like overly attached to, so to speak. They're also the ones that develop the stronger parasocial attachments. So really the social and the parasocial relationships kind of mimic the part the social. It's an extension of your social connection. It's not a replacement for them. It's a supplement on top of your regular relationship. And it does come in handy, however, when people don't have access to social relationships. So there is research on youth during COVID shutdowns, right? And lockdowns. And during the. You LGBTQ youth that don't have access to other LGBTQ youth. Again, especially during COVID And how, but not just during COVID just individuals who don't have social relationships that can fulfill those needs and how parasocial relationships come to address some of those needs. But again, it's not that people are satisfied with them. Instead said it's just people who are social or seek social connection also seek parasocial connection, probably again, because it uses the same infrastructure in our brain. So if you are wired for social connection, you connect for real. And in the media. It's not media instead of social, it's in addition to it.

[Steve Burns]

Okay, so I might just be.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

So that's the positive thing.

[Steve Burns]

I might just be worrying too much, right? Because I mean, this, this all comes from like the pandemic, really. Because during the pandemic I did a little shout out video and I said, hey, how you guys doing? I didn't say much, right. I just kind of said, hey, still thinking about you, never forgot you. And it was very simple message and it, and it blew up. And that what that kind of said to me was, wow, there is a, there's a, there's a very intense emotional need out there. And that's when I started paying attention to loneliness as it relates to technology. And I started to develop all these opinions without really knowing what I'm talking about, that it's technology that's making us lonely. And then I thought, well, if I'm cultivating this relationship, and I have been for 30 years through the very technology that makes us lonelier. Am I putting the cure for cancer in a cigarette or something? Am I, am I using the wrong device to try to do the right thing and therefore making everything worse? And maybe I'm just totally overthinking all of that, you know?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

So I have to add to that the nostalgic parasocial relationship, which is what you're describing, like you tapped into that, like you're representing to, to that audience this connection to some nostalgic moment. That form of parasocial relationship is unique in how it really can bring some gratification and enhance positive emotions. And you're not exploiting it. It's a good thing. But with that, I also have the negative side So I can speak to some of the things that maybe will keep you a little more concerned.

[Steve Burns]

Please do.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Is I studied a lot of romantic parasocial relationships. That was one of my interests. I like celebrity crushes and things like that. And I found that. And one of the questions that I was looking into is a little bit like what you. You were asking, like, is it healthy to develop your idea of what a relationship is based on your parasocial relationship? Because most Americans, based on my studies, about 80% of Americans have had at least one parasocial romantic relationship in their life. And about half the people have multiples. And most people report their first one to happen in their twins or early teen years, usually around the same time they start having sexual fantasies, but before they actually have their first romantic relationship. So that's a very important first experience. And it's true for both boys and girls. Even though when you say celebrity crushes, most people think it's a teenage girl thing, it's not. It's exactly the same for both sexes. I look just at teens ages 13 and up, and you can see that the more. The more potent their parasocial relationship is with the character, the personality that they have crush on, the more they endorse idealized romantic beliefs, like those unrealistic romantic expectations of, like, love at first sight. And everyone has, you know, love. Love wins under all circumstances. And everyone has their perfect romantic partner. You just have to find that one person. And I was wondering if that kind of translates to less positive experiences in actual romantic relationships. So I was looking at college students recalling their parasocial relationships growing up, and you can say, yes, again, the more potent their parasocial relationship is, the more unrealistic romantic expectations they have, and in turn, the less satisfied they are in their current romantic relationship. And their perception of their current romantic partner is not as high. So essentially, their current romantic partner doesn't live up to the same ideal that they could paint in their head when they had the parasocial romantic relationship with that celebrity or that character. Now, it's correlational studies, not causal. I cannot argue causality. It's entirely possible that just the romantic people are more likely to also develop crushes. It doesn't necessarily mean that the crash led to development of those romantic beliefs. But I also did some interviews with people trying to understand more, like, the contents of the parasocial relationship. Like, if it's all a fantasy, like, what do you fantasize about? What is the content of that experience? And people fantasize about mostly good Things. So they fantasize about, you know, being picked out of the crowd. Like they are like all those fans and he saw me and picked me meet cutes and all sorts of, you know, celebrating Christmas together with grandma. Nobody's thinking about fantasizing about having a fight or you know, about dishes like, or like those mundane things that happen in everyday life. Those who do fantasize about challenges, they, they dream about unrealistic resolutions for it. It's like Justin Bieber will be running down the street after me, begging for me to take him back. You know, so very un maladaptive strategies for conflict resolution. So you could say that yes, like fantasizing those kind of fantasies are not healthy preparations for engaging in a real relationship. But at the same time it does serve a particular purpose for the individuals who engage in them. In the big scheme of things, it is helpful. It is better for people to have this imaginary playground and kind of through imaginary play start figuring out who they are. Like what is their romantic self is, what is their sexual self is. It's better for them to do it fancifully this way than 12 year old starting dating someone to figure that out, right? That you learn about yourself through this process and you develop yourself and prepare yourself for actual relationships later and later in life you'll figure out that that was not a good conflict resolution strategy, but it still gave you something you couldn't have otherwise. Right. People engage in those relationships in other points in life. For example, I found that women who become moms for the first time and they want to go back to reconnect to their identity as something other than being a mother. Like they want to reconnect to their sexuality. They want to reconnect to their romantic self. Oftentimes a parasocial relationship is like that first bridge. I interviewed women who underwent divorce or lost their husband and they couldn't fathom the idea of dating again and again. The parasocial relationship was like their first step to kind of even imagine themselves being romantic or sexual before they were able to move on and embark in a real relationship.

[Steve Burns]

I see.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

So again, for. It's not to say that they can't be examples of like pathological ways of doing that, but for most people it is a healthy step.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking

[Chelsea Clinton]

that can't be true?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, I certainly do. 2025 brought us some ridiculous far fetched health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2020? I'm Chelsea Clinton. And we're back with season two of my podcast, that Can't Be True. Follow along and catch up on season one. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Steve Burns]

I see that. I see that what I'm hearing over and over again is that this is about moderation and contextualization, you know, and that this is about. This can be part of a healthy, balanced breakfast, you know, as long as everyone is contextualizing it accurately and understands what's going on. Because I can easily see, you know, just to use myself as an example again, I get so nervous when people say all these superlatives, oh, you're this wholesome Mr. Others or whatever that I'm clearly not. I just worry that, you know, that's a bar in my personal life that I do not meet. And if I did have a real relationship with these people, they would only be disappointed because they've idealized this thing to a degree that would lead to an unrealistic expectation. And I guess that's it for me is, you know, I just question all the idealization leading to unrealistic expectation in the world that is not para or quasi, you know, but what I'm hearing is that this can be okay if it is contextualized in a healthy, realistic way. I get that now. And just to make this less about me for a minute, and then we'll get back to me. But you can have parasocial relationships with things that aren't celebrities, right? You can have parasocial relationships with religious concepts even, right? Or didn't I hear you talk about people have parasocial relationships with works of art and statues and. And things like that. So people can use this projection outside of media, right?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yes. I. You know, one of the things that I think. Think people think about par. When they. When lay people think about parasocial relationship, like lay. I mean, like when non scholars think about parasocial relationships, they oftentimes think, oh, social media. And that's not an example of par. Social relationship. On social media, you can actually really have a real interaction with people. But. And parasocial relationships come dates back to antiquity, so you could have parasocial relationships not just through media. When I did historical research on parasocial relationship, the first example of parasocial relationships I could find goes back to Ancient Rome to 55 A.D. so juvenile satire about women being unfaithful. And as an example, he has a whole poem about women having crushes and parasocial relationships with rhetoricians and singers of that time. It's not a Modern phenomenon, it's not necessarily media based. You could, you could develop parasocial relationship with other entities for sure, with fictional characters. And to some extent you can say that par. Social relationships is a continuum because you know, you can have a personal relationship with a real person like yourself. Now obviously your media Persona is not identical to your actual Persona, but it's a certain facet of that personality as opposed to say, a fictional character or a cartoon that doesn't have an actual reference in the real world. And on the other end of it, it's not too far fetched to say that you know, a teenage girl that has a crash on the quarterback, senior quarterback in her schools that she never spoke to and only saw him, you know, on the field, she also has some sort of parasocial relationship with her. And as a matter of fact, all of our relationships, even with our close others, even in our real relationships and our actual social relationships, have an imaginary component to them, right? When you are in a relationship with someone and you are in some, to some extent, you imagine who they are, you have an idea of who they are when you are talking to them in your head, when you are rehearsing the speech that you're going to deliver to them, you are engaging a little bit in parasocial relationship. So there is a very, very small imaginary component even in relationships with our close others, with our significant others, with our parents or peers. And there is a lot more of it in our relationships with media personalities. But it is a continuum and it kind of goes back to when we talked about narratives and facts. Like there is no clear fact. Everything is some representation of a fact. Even our actual relationships have a imaginary component to them.

[Steve Burns]

Right. So walk me through real quick the difference between a parasocial relationship and just simple fandom, Right? Because there is a difference there. Right? What, what is that?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yeah, it's a little tricky because. So first of all, fandom is not necessarily about a person Persona. Like you can be a fan of a show, you can be a Star Trek fan and not have an attachment to any particular character, for example. So, so that's an important distinction. Now within fandom of a particular character or celebrity, there is a very significant overlap between the two. I would say that not all parasocial relationships are fandom because parasocial relationship is also a continuum in terms of like the intensity of the relationship and how much intimacy you have with, like, are you more of an acquaintance with them or a friend or more like a best friend, Right? So you have degrees of intensity of your parasocial friendship. And we're only talking now about positive parasocial relationship. Parasocial relationships can be also negative, like your relate social relationships. So I would say fans of a particular media personality can usually would have some degree of parasocial relationship attached to that. But not all fandom is parasocial relationship and not all parasocial relationship involve fandom.

[Steve Burns]

I'm realizing through this conversation, Rebecca, that I am in a parasocial relationship with you every bit as much as you are in a parasocial relationship with me. And we talked a little bit about psychological needs and a desire for connection through story that people bring to these parasocial relationships. Well, hell, I'm doing that too, big time. You know, I always say that I've always been kind of an alone y sandwich. I've always been a loner. Like I've always been kind of a solitary person. And I think this is my way of connecting to something that does feel real because of a. Of a need that I have. And you were speaking earlier about, you know, people having a parasocial relationship with a media Persona that does not act accurately, symmetrically reflect who that person is in real life. Right. But I think doing this podcast has been very much about presenting something closer to the real me for you to relate to so that I feel like this is more real. You know, I started this whole podcast talking about your relationship to me, but I think I'm seeing it the other way around now. I think I'm doing that. I'm investing in this parasocial relationship in a pretty big way. Right. What's that about? What's it about for the ostensible object of the parasocial relationship? What's happening in my brain psychologically, you know, and is it different from what might be happening?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

It's terribly understudied question. I'm dying to answer it. I would love to study that. But the problem is access. I need, you know, if I would love to interview you and.

[Steve Burns]

Let's do it.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Yes, okay, we will. I would love to because it's really understudied. There is a lot to unpack there. But that's exactly what myself and other colleagues of mine were always interested in understanding. Like, how does it, how does it feel for you to know that there are so many people who feel like they know you, but they don't actually know you? And how does it feel for you to perform for them and make self disclosures about yourself? Because you were talking about how breaking the fourth wall always the device you're using, but the biggest device you are using to create parasocial relationship is when you're telling about, you know, a death in your family that you went through or, you know, how did you feel when there were rumors about your death? And like, when you are sharing those personal experiences about yourself or how you live in the mountains or things like that, those personal bits of information is what really builds the relationship.

[Steve Burns]

Exactly.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

And what does it mean for you to disclose them?

[Steve Burns]

Exactly. I mean, I was always thinking, and

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

it's like a little pieces of you.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. And why am I sharing those with strangers? What am I doing? What is, what is that impulse to do that? You know, I did a one man show last year and I told stories on that stage that my best friends didn't know, you know, and it felt hard and vulnerable and raw and why am I doing that? And why am I doing this? And I. I read the comments on the Tick Tock page that I have, and some of it makes me cry and some of it is so. Just profoundly, like vulnerable that I just can't believe that anyone would share that. And I'm so moved by that, probably because I don't really have that kind of intimacy in my real life, you know, I mean, I'm doing it right now. You know, I'm confessing these things right now. So has to be for me about a need for connection. And I think perhaps all of this concern, or much of this concern that I have about your side of this power of social relationship might just be projection. This has been a really great therapy session actually, so far for me, but

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

it's not intended as a therapy.

[Steve Burns]

I know, I know, I know. I. I know, I know. That's another thing people say to me all the time that, that does, you know, concern me, Rebecca, is people say, oh, Steve, you're our therapist. And I'm like, well, I got to correct that, because that is certainly not true. And that sounds unhealthy as an expectation, you know, to cultivate. So, yeah, interesting, interesting stuff. So I won't keep you here all day. Although I could. I guess what I was trying to get at at the beginning of this episode of this podcast was the reality of what we're doing. Is this real? How much of it is real? Is this relationship a friendship. Or not? What do you think?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Well, I think the way you presented it at the beginning really captured it. It's not real, but it feels real. It's a. Facts are real. It's not friendship. It's not Two sided, it goes in one direction or it's experienced. Even if you are experienced that as a relationship and your audience experiences it as a relationship, it's not a real give and take. So in that way, of course, it's not real. It's a pretend play for adults or for children. It's a make believe, it's a suspension of disbelief. But in some ways, on some level, it has real impact. It feels real, it engages you in a real way. It presses all the real buttons in your psychic. And it can have real effects, real effects on your attitudes, on your beliefs, on your mood, on your perception of self in very real ways.

[Steve Burns]

But what about when they end? What about when a parasocial relationship is over?

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

It hurts. It hurts a lot. If you had a very strong parasocial relationship, they were invested in this relationship. It felt real, it felt meaningful. And now they lose that person and it hurts very much. So it comes with a sense of loss. It comes with profound sadness. You can see communities of bands coming together to support each other through those times as well. It follows a lot of the same trajectories of grief that we experience experience in real life. Obviously for most people, not to the same extent as experiencing loss in a real life relationship. But again, it echoes those experiences.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, you know, it's. It's actually really, really interesting for me to hear all of that because the thing I actually hear most from people who used to watch Blues Clues was when you left, you traumatized me. And I always try to laugh that off, but. But I can see now that for. Especially for a child, that was the end of a meaningful parasocial relationship. And. And after I left Blue's Clues, that I was dealing. I talk a lot about, you know, there was a. There was a rumor in the Internet that I died. And I felt like that was the end of my parasocial relationship with you. If. I don't know if that makes sense. But it felt to me like, oh, I guess it's over. You all think I'm dead. And I guess that, you know, that felt like an unhealthy end to something valuable, something meaningful. Not quite a friendship maybe, but something that. That was a connection and that was real in a way that matters, you know, Listen, this has been wonderful and revelatory to me. And it's really great, honestly, to talk about this stuff with someone who understands it and has studied it. Because sometimes I really do feel like no one gets this weird thing. No one's doing this weird thing that I'm trying to do. And it does feel complicated, and it does feel meaningful in ways that are real, even though I know that it is not. And so this has been really, really great for me, and I really appreciate talking to you. And if you ever want to talk, if you ever need someone to study about the other side of things, I'm totally here for that. I'd love to talk about that.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

So, yeah, I was absolutely gonna take you off on that.

[Steve Burns]

Fantastic.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Okay, well, thank you so much for having me. It was such a joy to talk to you. I really enjoy meeting you. And, yes, me too. Sharing with you and your enthusiasm for it. And again, you are the master of doing parasocial relationships. So I guess when I got the first email inviting me to the show, I was like this. I'm going to talk to the pro.

[Steve Burns]

Well, fantastic. Rebecca, thank you so much for stopping by. We really appreciate it.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Thank you.

[Steve Burns]

Bye.

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

Thank you. Bye.

[Steve Burns]

Okay, well, this is getting awfully meta. I wrote some stuff down. Our brains interpret people on screens the same way they interpret people in real life, at least initially, right? The same structures in our brain that manage intimacy and connection are at play when we connect through a screen, when we pretend that we're listening on this podcast. Parasocial relationships aren't necessarily bad. There are benefits. They can be part of a healthy, balanced breakfast, but it isn't harmless when we forget that we're pretending. The health of the illusion depends on remembering that there is one. Right? And parasocial relationships are, in fact, pretend. But the feelings they evoke and the impact that they have, Those are real. Let's go. Oh, hey. I was just talking about you. All right. That's a big interview for us, really, for specifically us in the way we relate. So after seeing that, let me ask you again in the way that I've always spoken to you, right through the camera, what do you think? Are we friends? Yeah. I mean, it's complicated, to say the least. I mean, it's a question that I have taken really seriously. It's a question that I've been taking even more, more seriously in recent years, like, since the first time a millennial approached me on the street and said, hey, are you Steve? And immediately began to cry. And then tell me that when I left the show, they were traumatized. I used to laugh all that off, but now, not so much. So I asked myself that question all the time. Are we friends? And I want to say, no, We're not. Not really. I mean, we don't really know each other. You. You know, Me from Blue's Clues and from this podcast. But you don't know the me that is, like, freaking out in traffic and who isolates and who has always struggled to form romantic relationships and who is enormously frustrating and very easily frustrated. You don't. You don't know that guy. And that's most of it, really. And, you know, I've never helped you carry a mattress up the stairs or picked you up from the airport. And we don't show up for each other in three dimensions when our parents are sick like friends do. So I want to say no, but I can't. I can't, because that doesn't feel honest either. I mean, this isn't nothing. It's. It's like what Rebecca said. It's not real, but it presses real buttons and has real effects. And the effects of that do create a form of a relationship. And that relationship, whatever it is, has value. It's valuable to me. In fact, this. This relationship is one of the most valuable things in my life. So, no, we're not technically friends, but. But I think the most accurate description I can think of for us is that we're people who don't know each other, choosing to treat each other as friends. And that's good. I'm sorry, but. But that is. I mean, think about it. Think about it. I don't think this is naive. What if everybody did that? What if we treated the person who got on the elevator whose face looks nothing like our face, whose politics confuse and nauseate us? What if we treated the stranger simply as a friend we've not yet met? How might that change, like, everything? Yeah. This is what I'm saying. And this is why I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for you. Right. I get on this strange technology, and I try to show up and. And speak honestly about things that are sometimes funny and sometimes really uncomfortable. And you listen. So thank you for the gift of your attention. I'm super glad that we're still friends who've not yet met. You look great. You do. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me. We'll see you next week and you look great. By the

[Chelsea Clinton]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and

[Dr. Rebecca Tukachinski Forster]

hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.