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All Ears English Podcast
AEE 2503: Language Expert Ingrid Piller Shares 3 Tips for Life in a New Language
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This is an Allers English podcast, episode 2503. Language expert Ingrid Pillar shares three tips for life in a new language.
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Welcome to the All Ears English Podcast. Downloaded more than 200 million times. We believe in connection, not perfection with your American host Aubrey Carter and today's featured guest coming to you from Arizona, usa. To get real time transcripts right on your phone and create your personalized vocabulary list, try the Allears English app for iOS and Android. Start your seven day free trial at allearsenglish.com app.
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If you have immigrated to a new country or might in the future, you do not want to miss today's tips. Ingrid Piller, co author of Life in a New Language, shares three tips for becoming your best self in your new country.
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Hello everyone. I'm very excited to introduce you to today's very special guest, Ingrid Pillar. How are you Ingrid? Thank you for joining me.
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Hi Audrey, Lovely to be with you.
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Yes, so excited for this conversation and for all that you will be able to share with our listeners here. But first I would like to introduce you so everyone knows a little bit about you. Ingrid is Alexander von Humboldt professor for Linguistic Diversity and Social Participation across the Lifespan at Hamburg University in Germany and Distinguished professor of Applied Linguistics at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia. She is an internationally recognized Expert in intercultural communication, language learning, multilingualism, and bilingual education. And she's the author of several books including Life in a New Language, Linguistic Diversity and Social justice and Intercultural Communication. This quite a resume. Ingrid, we're very excited to have you.
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Here and I'm looking forward to talking with you about life in a new language in particular.
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Yes, exactly. I found this book and I couldn't wait to have Ingred on the show because so many of our listeners are doing just that. They're creating life in a new language, whether you have already immigrated or plan to in the future, and even if you're not immigrating. Ingred has a wealth of knowledge here, especially about long term research that was put into this book. Can you share that with us? First, Ingrid, I found this fascinating, what went into the research for this book?
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Sure. So we were a team of six co authors and we brought together research we'd done over many years to create a new data set. And that data set was based on longitudinal, ethnographic, very detailed observation with 130 migrants to Australia from 34 different countries who had arrived in Australia between 1970 and 2013. And we followed them essentially over a period of 20 years. And our key research interest was to find out how does it actually work to get comfortable in a new language at the same time that you need to settle and integrate in a new society. And so our key research question is how do you actually do that, taking on this task of learning the new language, but doing already things through that language like, you know, finding a new job, finding an apartment, just everything that you need to do. And that's the big challenge of language learning as a migrant, as an adult, that it's not just about language. It's not just about learning, you know, new words and new grammar and new pronunciation. I mean, that's all hard enough, right? Right. But in addition to these things, if you do them in the classroom, it's kind of safe, right? I mean, it's, you know, you may get it wrong. Fine. Nothing much happens other than maybe your grade goes down, but the stakes are lower, right? Yeah, so definitely. But if you do that in real life, you know, you may not get the job. You, you may have difficulty establishing your professional identity, you may not get the job you want. You may want to sign up for a mobile phone plan. Big problem for many of our participants. Like in just, you know, you, you arrive in a new country, you have to sign up for a new phone plan, and it turns out to be really linguistically complex.
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Yes. And so I know a lot of you listening are in that boat where you're going through a lot of this or might be very soon. So this is amazing. We're going to have Ingrid share three tips for doing just that, for building life in a new language and setting yourself up for success. But I also was wondering if you could share. Ingrid, when we chatted before, I was very interested to hear that all of your participants had experienced discrimination at some point, had gone through these experiences. And I know a lot of our listeners definitely have been through that as well or might worry about that. I had shared that with my partner. I was very interested to hear this. Can you share a little bit about that?
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Yeah, for sure. So we looked at kind of various aspects of life in a new language, including just the language learning experience. Then interactions like, how do you make new friends in a new language? How do you actually get into those practice conversations that everyone thinks you'll be having, lots of them in a new country. Turns out it's not so easy, actually. How to find work in a new language, how to do family in a new situation where maybe extended family is no longer there, or where you're facing new parenting challenges. Because oftentimes I can tell you, children learn the new language a lot quicker or seem to be learning it a lot quicker, so they become like the language experts, and that creates new challenges. And then we were looking at experiences of discrimination and finally experiences of building a new home, building a new sense of belonging. And so you were specifically asking about the experiences of discrimination. And really, all our participants at one point or another experienced different levels of exclusion. Now, there were sort of broad differences in terms of was that exclusion or that discrimination based purely on language, like on accent, or was it also based on visible characteristics? And so they were really different experiences for the white people, for European migrants, then for African migrants, migrants from Asia. And the white migrants kind of, if they didn't say anything, they really, you know, they were seen like members of the majority population. So really their experiences were related to once they opened their mouth and kind of stood out. And many of them said, you know, like, I wish I could get rid of my accent. And some of them had these very sort of slight, if you will, experiences of othering, like being always asked, where are you from? And, you know, like, if you'd lived in the country for 20 years, that can become feel very exclusive too. But the white migrants really saw themselves on a trajectory to belonging. So even if they would never, even if they felt I personally will never get rid of my accent and so will always stand out a bit. They kind of envision their children to be migrants, not to be no longer migrants, to be like, you know, members of the majority population. Whereas that was different for the non white migrants who really had a much harsher experiences of discrimination, like overt racism, the kind of street racism where sometimes where someone you know yells a slur at you. And while that didn't necessarily mean didn't happen often, but it happened to pretty much everyone or they knew everyone who had happened to once or twice. And so that really gave them this feeling of being under siege or just always having to justify their sense of belonging and their very existence. And so that could become very exhausting. And many of them talked about how it just felt like such a waste of time that, you know, you have to, you have. There's so many things going on and you continuously have to prove like your, your existence or, or your right to just be in that space.
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Yeah.
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However, I don't want to be too negative either. Right.
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We don't want to be negative. We know this does happen. I, I feel like knowing that that happened to everyone in your research gives a sense of solidarity to all of, to anyone who's learning a language, who hasn't, who might be experiencing that. To know they're not alone, they're not isolated. Unfortunately this is a common experience. I think it helps to know, to expect it potentially to help to know that unfortunately this is the world we live in. I do think it's getting better, but this does still happen and it's one thing to be prepared for.
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Yeah. Some of them had like really good strategies too and sort of made a joke of it. Or like in Australia, of course, where everyone except for Indigenous Australians are migrants, many of them really kind of took on this historical aspect and so, you know, you haven't been here longer than I have and you know, the only people who sort of have a right to claim this land as theirs are indigenous people. And that's a good point. Yeah.
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Yeah, interesting. Well, let's dive in with the three tips you are going to share with us today. Very excited. We'll share a little more detail about the book later. I know this will be fascinating for everyone, but if you can share your first tip on setting yourself up for success when you're creating life in a new language.
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Yeah, well, so the first tip I want to share is like just really be prepared that it's not just about language, it's about getting a new identity. And I think you have to expect that. You don't just think like, I'm going to get a particular IELTS level or I'm going to get a particular TOEFL level. That can be very far from the reality. The reality is that you're becoming a new person, you're living a new life and you have to embrace that new identity and expect really that language learning migration will affect your whole person.
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Know I love this point. I can imagine if someone immigrates and is trying to keep everything the same, keep their same identity, that would be a struggle. You would feel a lot of setbacks. Whereas if you're able to recognize this will be different. I'm in a new culture with a new language and there are things about identity that will need to be adjusted as well. All right, I love that. Thank you. And can you share with us the, the second tip?
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Well, the second point was really that you have to put yourself out there. You have to embrace the growing pains. As one of our participants, a doctor from China said, you know, it's about the growing pains and it's like the growing pains, they, they are part of becoming a new person growing. And that's. You kind of have to embrace that. Right. And you're not alone. You have to find strategies to find allies, to build solidarity, to.
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Be with.
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Other people who have the same experiences, but also just low stakes allies who have what a cooler conversations with you. And so you really can't just sit back and nowadays particularly hope that the device will everything do everything for you and, and all the interaction can work through.
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That's such a good point. You have to do a lot in order to create these in person conversations. And you have to be willing to experience a little rejection. I've talked to students about this lately. If you're trying to speak to strangers in a country in a new language, there every now and then will be someone who just sort of looks at you like, why are you talking to me? This happens to me as well. I try to strike up a conversation in line, waiting for a coffee and every now and then you get that cold shoulder. It can happen. We have to be willing to put ourselves out there, potentially be rejected. Because most of the opportunities, most of those experiences will be positive and will give you those opportunities to practice speaking.
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Absolutely.
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All right, let's hear your third tip. Ingrid.
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Yeah, and that's really you're playing a long term game. You, you know, fluency in the new language, the sense of belonging. They might not come as quickly as you hope they won't come on the first day. Even if you arrive in a new country like, I don't know, with an IELTS level 9, you may still find that there is so much you have to learn and that there is a road ahead of you. But once you sort of, you know, realize that and accept that, then there is also belonging is achievable. Pretty much all our participants, you know, found a space where they really felt comfortable and a sense of belonging.
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Oh, I love to hear that. That's the good news, right? In spite of challenges you might face, there is a place for you wherever you are immigrating where you will feel like you belong, where you have friends and can connect with others in English. For those of you who are listening to our podcast. But it is interesting to think about what a long term journey it is. That's a really good point. Even if you get a 9 on the IELTS exam, that's just the beginning of your journey. If you're working in English, making friends in English, that's just the first step to get the score you need on an exam to immigrate to the country. And then you have this long term goals, these goals, this journey ahead of you in order to reach that true goal of belonging in a new country.
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And you know that doesn't happen for anyone because like building friends Building community, being part of something that takes time wherever you are and wherever you go. And so really focusing on community, focusing on relationships, focusing on making friends and building connections and that's what matters.
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That's so true. And even those of you who aren't planning to immigrate, if you are trying to have those in person conversations in English, you also will need to build that community wherever you live. Finding other English language learners may be expats in order to create, you know, an English learning and English speaking community where you live. So this really applies to everyone out there listening whether you are immigrating or not. But these tips I think will really set people up for success to immigrate and really embrace life in a new language. So thank you so much. Ingrid, can you share with us a little bit about the book where it can be found? I know it was co authored by some of your colleagues, but I really am excited for listeners to read it.
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Yeah. So sure. Just look up Life in a New Language. You'll find it. It's come out from Oxford University Press in 2024. You can get it wherever you get your books from. And it's available as a E publication or in hard copy, whatever you prefer.
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Amazing. Did you happen to record the audiobook? I feel like that would be such a bonus. I love your slight accent. You did? That's amazing.
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No, no, no, we didn't. It. We haven't got around to it yet. Hopefully it's going to be out sometime soon.
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Okay, nice. Amazing. And until then, we can read the book. Thank you so much for joining us today, Ingrid, and for sharing this wealth of knowledge, years of research. We really appreciate you being here.
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Thank you, Audrey.
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Thanks. Have a good day.
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You too.
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Thanks for listening. To all ears. English. Would you like to know your English English level? Take our two minute quiz. Go to allearsenglish.com forward/fluency score. And if you believe in connection, not perfection, then hit subscribe now to make sure you don't miss anything. See you next time. And Doug, here we have the limu.
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