AEE 2510: NYT Author Maya Rossignac-Milon Shares How Riffing Builds Connection in English

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Ears English AEE 2510

Episode Title: NYT Author Maya Rossignac-Milon Shares How Riffing Builds Connection in English
Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Aubrey Carter
Guest: Maya Rossignac-Milon (New York Times guest essayist, Assistant Professor at IESE Business School)
Episode Focus: Moving beyond small talk—how "riffing" builds real connection in English conversations

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into strategies to transform small talk from dull exchanges into genuine connection, focusing on the concept of "riffing"—or playfully building on each other's ideas in conversation. Special guest Maya Rossignac-Milon, who co-authored the New York Times essay “You’re Probably Doing Small Talk Wrong,” shares actionable tips from her research and her own experiences, aiming to help English learners (and everyone!) move beyond formulaic chit-chat and spark real bonds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is "Riffing" and Why Does It Matter?

[04:46 – 05:50]

• Definition: Riffing is building on what someone else says, inspired by jazz improvisation, where musicians pick up and elaborate on each other's ideas to create something new on the spot.
  • Quote (Maya, 05:07):
    “So riffing is really building off of what someone else is saying. So it comes from music, right? From jazz and improvisation, where artists would riff off of each other… you’re creating something new together.”
• Why it matters:
  • Riffing transforms superficial conversations into memorable exchanges that create a unique “shared reality,” increasing the chance of forming genuine connections.
  • It’s a key skill in both friendship-building and language practice.

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2. Three Practical Tips to Improve Small Talk & Build Connection

Tip 1: Co-Create, Don’t Just Exchange Facts

[06:25 – 08:21]

• Avoid surface-level, back-and-forth information swaps like “Where are you from?” or “What do you do?”
• Try to build collaboratively on what the other person says, creating a mini “world” together even in the span of minutes.
  • Example scenario:
    “Oh, I spent way too much time watching people on TikTok make tiny food.”—which the other can playfully expand on (“I can cook a lasagna in a bottle cap” / “Maybe we should do a tiny food potluck!”).
• Quote (Maya, 07:55):
  “You’re just creating this shared reality, this little world that belongs to you now. You have this little universe that you can explore and you can push into more absurd territory.”

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Tip 2: Let the Real You Show Up Early

[11:55 – 14:52]

• Step away from “safe” topics and scripts; let your personality and quirks shine, even if it feels a bit vulnerable.
• This authenticity can filter connections, ensuring you find people who truly click with you.
  • Quote (Maya, 12:22):
    “…deviating a little bit from that, saying something that's maybe a little more unexpected, even if it feels really vulnerable…it will make you come across as more authentic because you're being more authentic.”
  • Example: Sharing a “hot take”—“I think rom coms peaked in 2004”—or admitting, “I cried at a movie this weekend,” opens up space for playful or meaningful follow-up and riffing.
• Host reflection (Aubrey, 14:00):
  “The quicker you show your real personality, it’s actually a really great filter to sort of weed out anyone that was never going to be a good connection anyway…”

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Tip 3: Create and Reuse Inside Jokes

[15:02 – 16:54]

• Once you’ve riffed and created a shared experience—circle back to it, creating an “inside joke” or point of reference that strengthens the bond and sets up the next interaction.
  • Quote (Maya, 15:15):
    “Inside jokes are something you can build with a little more intention just by calling back to something earlier in the conversation… that can be a nice way… to really reinforce the sense that you've created this shared reality together.”
• Example: If you joked about rom coms, refer back to it at the end:
  (Aubrey, 16:02): “If you watch a ROM com tonight, make sure it’s one from the 90s.”

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3. The Power of Playfulness and Fast-Forwarding Friendship

[09:10 – 09:41]

• Children quickly move into play, bypassing formality—adults can reclaim some of that spirit to deepen rapport, even in brief new encounters.
  • Quote (Maya, 09:10):
    “…like that sense of playfulness that you have with close friends… you’re fast forwarding to that and treating the person as if they're already a good friend that you're comfortable being playful with.”

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4. Real-Life Example: How Riffing Launched a Friendship

[04:15 – 04:46]

• Maya describes meeting co-author Erica Boothby at a conference; their bond emerged when they playfully riffed on stereotypes about coffee drinkers vs. tea drinkers and pet preferences—turning a mundane intro into memorable connection.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the risk (and reward) of authenticity [12:45]:
  “It doesn’t have to be something funny. It could just be something quirky… or even be something more vulnerable… you can be a little more vulnerable than you might be otherwise.” – Maya Rossignac-Milon

• Filtering connections [14:00]:
  “…it’s actually a really great filter to sort of weed out anyone that was never going to be a good connection anyway…” – Aubrey Carter

• Embracing adult playfulness [09:41]:
  “We could do this as adults in sort of an adjusted way that would fit the situation and create more friendships, more connection.” – Aubrey Carter

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Important Segments with Timestamps

• Introduction of Maya & episode theme: [03:02 – 04:46]
• Defining “riffing” and why it matters: [04:46 – 05:50]
• Tip 1: Co-create through riffing (with example): [06:25 – 08:21]
• Why authenticity matters (filtering/finding connections): [11:55 – 14:52]
• Tip 3: Establishing inside jokes/callbacks: [15:02 – 16:54]
• Where to find Maya’s NYT article & follow her: [17:26 – 18:01]

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Where to Find the Article and More About Maya

• Article: “You’re Probably Doing Small Talk Wrong” – New York Times Guest Essay
• Find Maya:
  • Website
  • LinkedIn
  • Twitter (@mayarmilon)

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Takeaways for English Learners

• Don’t be afraid to go off-script and let your personality show.
• Build on the other person’s comments to create “shared realities.”
• Playfulness, authenticity, and referencing your joint creations (“inside jokes”) can fast-track and deepen connections—even across language barriers.

Host closing (Aubrey, 18:01):
“These tips are so amazing…try to show your personality, build on that to create a real connection.”

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For full transcripts and more episodes, visit allearsenglish.com.

Transcript

[Aubrey Carter]

This is an All Ears English podcast. Episode 2510 New York Times author Maya Rocin Milon shares how riffing builds connection in English.

[Lindsey McMahon]

Welcome to the All Ears English podcast, downloaded more than 200 million times. Are you feeling stuck with your English? We'll show you how to become fearless and fluent by focusing on connection, not perfection, with your American host, Aubrey Carter, the IELTS whiz and Lindsey McMahon, the English adventurer coming to you from Arizona and Colorado, usa. And to get your transcripts delivered by email every week, go to allearsenglish.com subscribe.

[Aubrey Carter]

Do you have difficulty knowing what to say when you meet someone new? Today, our guest Maya Rocinhac Milon provides tips from her research about moving past small talk to build real connections in English.

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[Aubrey Carter]

Hello everyone. I am very excited to welcome our very special guest today, Maya Rossignac Milon. Welcome to the podcast.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Aubrey Carter]

Yes, I will first introduce you, but I'm very excited for listeners to find out about an article that Maya and a friend of hers wrote for the New York Times recently. Recently about small talk. Improving your small talk. What the real keys are to building relationships and connections. So you are going to learn so much today from this article. But first, Maya is an assistant professor in the Managing People in Organizations department at IESE Business School. Before joining iesc, she was a postdoctoral researcher at Columbia business school. Her PhD is in psychology from Columbia University. Her research investigates the experience of shared reality in conversation and interpersonal relationships, all of which we talk about a lot here on Allers English. So I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Thank you so much.

[Aubrey Carter]

So tell us a little bit first about the article. Most listeners won't have read it yet. We'll definitely share it. We'll give you details, how to find it. But yes.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

What.

[Aubrey Carter]

What was the process in writing this? You wrote. Co wrote it with a friend, correct?

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah, that's right. I wrote it with my friend Erica Boothby. She's a close collaborator of mine. And we had our own experience of riffing that really started our friendship. And so it was really nice to write about that experience. We basically met at a conference, and our small talk quickly gave way to playful theories. We started riffing off of each other about what coffee people, coffee drinkers are like and tea drinkers, and if that maps onto pet preferences.

[Aubrey Carter]

And it was one of those magic moments where you were able to start a fun conversation and quickly feel like kindred spirits. Like, we're going, exactly, friends. But you're using this verb riff, riffing, which might be unfamiliar to some listeners, but I agree is so key in small talk. What does that mean, Maya? Riffing?

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah. So riffing is really building off of what someone else is saying. So it comes from music, right? From jazz and improvisation, where artists would riff off of each other. So a jazz riff is right. Like a series of musical notes, and instead of just sort of playing something that's scripted, when jazz artists are performing together, they're really improvising and they're riffing off of each other. So they'll take something that one person played and add to it and create something totally new together. And that's really the idea of riffing in conversation, is you're creating something new together, the same way that improv artists create a new scene together when they're doing improv.

[Aubrey Carter]

Yeah. I love this metaphor of this beautiful piece of jazz music, especially live jazz, where it becomes something amazing and it's mostly improvised. So that is an amazing metaphor for really what happens with this small talk when you first meet someone. So I'm very excited to get your three tips today that could help our listeners improve their small talk and have more often have it lead to a real connection, a real friendship.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Awesome. Yeah.

[Aubrey Carter]

Right? Do you want to dive in with.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Your first tip, Definitely. So my first tip is really, really this idea of riffing at its core. So we often think about small talk as exchanging information about each other. So what do you do? Where are you from? Or if you already know the person, how was your weekend? And just kind of exchanging facts back and forth. And that can often get in the way of riffing because we're not trying to create something new together like we were just discussing, we're just kind of reciting something back and forth. And so instead of I invite your listeners to try to build on what the other person is saying to try to co create something new. And so instead of searching for surface level commonalities, try to create something that's unique to the two of you. So if someone asks you how your weekend was, you might share something like, oh, I spent way too much time watching people on TikTok make tiny food. And the other person might say something like, okay, tiny food. Like what do you mean? And you might say, okay, well I can actually, I'm pretty sure I can build, I can cook a lasagna in like a tiny bottle cap. And they might say, wow, well, maybe we should try to do that together. We could organize a whole potluck with a bunch of tiny food. And of course you're right, I'm good.

[Aubrey Carter]

At making tiny noodles. So that can be what I add.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Y. Yeah. So it doesn't have to be something you're actually going to do, but you're just kind of riffing off of each other. You're just creating this shared reality, this little world that belongs to you now. You have this little universe that you can explore and you can push into more absurd territory. It doesn't have to be funny. It could be any kind of idea that you're just really building on the other person. So that would be my first tip.

[Aubrey Carter]

Okay. I love this so much because it's really true that when we often have those first interactions, we sometimes out of nervousness or you know, worry, being worried about that initial first impression, we kind of go to what we are comfortable with, just asking those regular questions and sticking in safe territory. But you are so right that often that doesn't really go anywhere. It might even be a little awkward and you're not able to really build the connection and suddenly you're out of time and that's an opportunity lost. Whereas if you can quickly see, skip a lot of that and riff about something fun, find something in common, be playful, be funny and really allow your real personality to show that Actually might lead to a real connection.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah, totally. Like that sense of playfulness that you have with close friends. Often you already have that and you're kind of like you're saying you're fast forwarding to that and treating the person as if they're already a good friend that you're comfortable being playful with. The way that we kind of do as children. Right. Like, making friends was a lot easier, lot easier when you were, you know, seven years old because you just jump right into that play together. And so it's kind of embracing that spirit of playfulness with people that you've just met.

[Aubrey Carter]

That's a really good point. I have young kids and I observe them do this. They skip all of those niceties, all of that kind of friendly, polite small talk we feel like we are obligated to do. And they go right into being fun and funny together and our immediate friends. And you're not wrong. We could do this as adults in sort of a adjusted way that would fit the situation and create more friendships, more connection. I love that. Okay, let's move on to your second tip. I'm excited for this. Can you believe it? The holiday shopping season is officially here. Uncommon Goods takes the stress out of gifting with thousands of unique, high quality finds you won't see anywhere else. The best gifts disappear quickly, so start crossing names off your list now. Uncommon Goods has something for everyone. From moms and dads to kids and teens. From book lovers, history buffs and die hard football fans, to foodies, mixologists and avid gardeners. You'll find thousands of new gift ideas that you won't find anywhere else. We've all been running out the door with no time to brew coffee or stop somewhere to grab one. I found the perfect solution on Uncommon Goods. An insulated to go coffee press. You pour in grounds and water, put in the dual filter press and then the leak proof lid allows you to throw it in your car or bag and go. Instant delicious coffee that stays hot or cold for hours. I had never seen a to go coffee press like this and am loving the convenience. It would be a perfect gift for any coffee lover, especially if you're constantly on the go like me. So don't wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15 off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com AEE that's U N C O M O N G o O D S.com AEE for 15% off Uncommon Goods. We're all out of the ordinary.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah. So my second tip is really what you just said about letting your real self shine through. So being real is tip number two. So, so often we're so focused on trying to make a good impression that we're not going to share something that would be good riffing material to begin with. Right. We're going to stick to things that we feel follow the general script of, like what you're supposed to say in that context. And what my research has found is that actually deviating a little bit from that, saying something that's maybe a little more unexpected, even if it feels really vulnerable, it feels risky in the moment, that will make you come across as more authentic because you're being more authentic. Like you're letting a little bit of the real you that might not conform exactly to what is expected in that situation come through. And so that can allow you to then uncover territory with the other person that is much better fodder for riffing. Right. And it doesn't have to be something funny. It could just be something quirky. Like you might share a hot take, like, I think rom coms peaked in 2004, whatever it might be, and then the other person can riff off of that. Or it could even be something, you know, more vulnerable. Like if someone asks you about your weekend and you watched a movie that made you cry, you could say, I watched a movie and it really moved me, I actually started crying. And you could tell them a little bit about that. It's not super vulnerable. You're not telling them about when you cried because of like a life event that happened. You're just telling them about this, you know, lightly vulnerable. It's a little bit less scary than diving into, like the super deep stuff that you probably don't feel ready yet if you just met this person. But you can be a little more vulnerable than you might be otherwise.

[Aubrey Carter]

Yeah. So first of all, I think that's not a hot take. I think that's just facts that rom coms. The hot take is that rom coms are good now, which is very debatable.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Good point.

[Aubrey Carter]

But yes, this is so true. And it's interesting that the quicker you show your real personality, it's actually a really great filter to sort of weed out anyone. That was never going to be a good connection anyway because either you're too different, you're not going to be able to find common ground. And that's fine. You could sort of move into the small talk and just have the quick conversation and recognize this isn't going to be a solid connection, which is okay. But Then you're able to find out which people you are potentially able to have that connection with and waste a little. It's sort of like dating when you're trying to say what the other person wants to say or just be really amiable for a while, and you end up wasting so much time with people that it was never going to work out with. The sooner you can be yourself and filter that down to someone it actually would work with, the better.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah, totally. You can get a sense of, like, can we jump on the same wavelength?

[Aubrey Carter]

Right. Exactly. Okay, so interesting. All right. Do you have a third tip to share with us?

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yes. So my third tip is something to do later in the conversation. Once you've already started riffing a little bit and you've created something that's unique to the two of you, then call back to it after. So a lot of the time we think that inside jokes, we kind of wait for them to just emerge naturally, and that can take a while, or we think it's something that's really reserved for close friends. But inside jokes are something you can build with a little more intention just by calling back to something earlier in the conversation. And so if we riffed earlier about ROM coms at the end of our conversation or maybe after, I might follow up with something about ROM coms that would make both of us laugh and remember, oh, yeah, we had this great moment. We had this shared reality about this during our conversation. So that can be a nice way to then give you some kind of thread that you can carry through to the next conversation, to the next interaction that you have to really reinforce the sense that you've created this shared reality together.

[Aubrey Carter]

Absolutely. As a closing, I could say, all right, if you watch a ROM com tonight, make sure it's one from the 90s. There's so many fun ways to call back if you show a little of your personality, be a little out there, playful, whatever it is. Right. And then you have something to refer back to. I really love this thought because I think it's true that we often think we need a more solid foundation, more of a relationship before we can start being fun and funny and creating these inside jokes. But it's really not true. This can happen right away if you run into someone at a conference. Conference. If you start showing your personality quicker than even in a conversation of a few minutes like happened for you and your friend, you could get there and realize, like, this could be a great connection for life.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Totally.

[Aubrey Carter]

Yeah. Awesome. These tips are so amazing. I'm very excited for our listeners to use these tips the next time they meet someone for the first time. Skip some of that. So small talk. And yeah, try to show your personality, build on that to create a real connection. Maya, can you share some details about the article about how our listeners could find it, Remind me the name of it so that everyone listening can go and read this amazing article.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah, so it's a New York Times guest essay. It was published about a month ago and it's on. It's called you'd're probably doing small talk wrong and you can find it on the New York Times.

[Aubrey Carter]

Awesome. Amazing. And if our listeners want to follow you or find out more about you, are you on social media? Could they follow you?

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Yeah, definitely. I'm on LinkedIn, Twitter and they can also visit my website, Maya Rossignac Milan.com where they can read more about the research behind the scenes.

[Aubrey Carter]

Amazing. Okay, thank you so much for joining us, Maya and sharing this wisdom. I love that it sprouted from this amazing connection you had with a friend that is now a longtime friend and really proved that this works. So everyone out there listening, prove it to yourselves by creating one of those connections. So fun. Thank you for being here today, Maya.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

[Aubrey Carter]

Awesome.

[Maya Rossignac Milon]

Bye bye bye.

[Lindsey McMahon]

Thanks for listening. To all ears. English Would you like to know your English level? Take our 2 minute quiz, go to allearsenglish.com fluencyscore and if you believe in connection, not perfection, then hit subscribe now to make sure you don't miss anything. See you next time.

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