Michelle Kaplan (2:54)

Right.

Lindsay McMahon (2:54)

Because I wish someone could just do it for me, but that's just not where I'm at in life. So I go to the grocery store. Yeah.

Michelle Kaplan (3:01)

Yep, exactly. Well, recently with groceries, I've been doing just like the pickup, which has been really nice. I mean, it's, it's $5, which is

Lindsay McMahon (3:11)

a, that's such a deal.

Michelle Kaplan (3:13)

Yeah. So I pay $5. I save all this time, but sometimes if I can't get a. A pickup slot, then I have to go in with my kids and my daughter goes around with a teeny tiny card, and it's very cute. But then we end up buying things I don't want.

Lindsay McMahon (3:27)

So anyway, like fancy cheeses in the card and putting all kinds of things in her little cart.

Michelle Kaplan (3:31)

Yeah, she, like, picked up like a giant salami the other day that I didn't. And like, so I end up a bit like, okay, sure. And then I put. And then I put everything back. Anyway. Yeah. So this expression unnecessary evil did come up in a recent business English episode, and it's. It's so useful. And we said we better do a whole episode on this. So that's what we're gonna do today. We'll give you that business English episode towards the end and so that you can listen to that as well. But before we get started, guys, we want to make sure that you hit follow wherever you're listening to the all your English podcast. And while you're at it, because I mentioned business English, if you haven't listened to business English, definitely go on over there, search for it wherever you're listening to your podcast, and hit follow there as well. Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (4:19)

100 guys, you want to be following both shows so you don't miss a single thing from all ears English. So, Michelle, what exactly does it mean to say that something is a necessary evil? I mean, this is a common term in our daily street language, right?

Michelle Kaplan (4:34)

Yes, this is. I. I love this expression. So it's something that you don't want to do. You don't enjoy it, but you have to. And there's no way you can avoid it. Like, because it will make things better or run in a way that they need to, but. But they're not. It's not fun. So, yeah, laundry is a great example. Others, you know, it has to be done, otherwise your clothes are dirty. You need to wear clothes. But I don't know anybody who enjoys it.

Lindsay McMahon (5:02)

Yeah, yeah. Any kind of cleaning or it's. It's like things that maintain your life but don't necessarily add value to your life. But if you don't do them, you lose a lot of value in your life, Right?

Michelle Kaplan (5:13)

Exactly, Exactly. I mean, can you. Other examples of necessary evils?

Lindsay McMahon (5:19)

Oh, there's so many, Michelle. I mean, paying your credit card bill, obviously, right? I mean, we got to pay our credit card bill every month. If we don't, we get Hit with those crazy high interest rates, which no one wants that, but. So we don't enjoy it, but it maintains our life.

Michelle Kaplan (5:33)

Right.

Lindsay McMahon (5:34)

Paying for insurance, shoveling snow in. In the New York area, New Jersey area. You probably do a lot of snow shoveling, right?

Michelle Kaplan (5:42)

Yes, it's, it's. And we had a whopper of a storm recently.

Lindsay McMahon (5:46)

Oh, you guys have had a lot of snow out there in the East Coast.

Michelle Kaplan (5:49)

Yeah, there's still snow everywhere. It just is not melting because it's so cold. So. Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (5:56)

Michelle, anything else that would be a necessary evil.

Michelle Kaplan (5:58)

Spending money for travel, like commuting, right?

Lindsay McMahon (6:01)

Oh, yeah.

Michelle Kaplan (6:02)

Or sometimes, unfortunately for certain companies, like a budget cut or a layoff, that might be a necessary evil.

Lindsay McMahon (6:10)

Yeah. I mean, right now, I think a lot of tech companies are going through this. Right. Because we're not sure about what's happening with AI. So companies are kind of thinning out a little bit on purpose. And so that is. That's a necessary evil for the companies or for the managers, right?

Michelle Kaplan (6:23)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So let's show how necessary evil might be used in a sentence.

Lindsay McMahon (6:29)

Okay. So you could say, I know you don't want to leave at 5am but it will help us avoid a huge traffic jam. It's a necessary evil. But we can't risk being late. So you might throw this into a comment about something you're asking someone to do.

Michelle Kaplan (6:43)

Right, Right. And it's almost in. In this way. It's almost just showing I'm with you. Right. I. I agree. Like, this stinks. Which is a good. I mean, which is a great connection. Skull as well. So to identify that for everyone can be, you know, can actually make somebody feel closer to you.

Lindsay McMahon (7:04)

No, that's so true. We have to acknowledge that. Especially if you're asking someone to do something right with you or for you, maybe. Another example, I had to plan all my checkups in the. So I have to take time off. Oh, well, it's a necessary evil. Gotta stay on top of your health. Yes.

Michelle Kaplan (7:22)

Yep.

Lindsay McMahon (7:22)

No, no one really loves going to the doctor. I mean, sometimes I like, like leaving the doctor because, like. Okay. I took care of myself. Oh, you feel like such a big, clean or something.

Michelle Kaplan (7:30)

Big person, right? Yeah. Adult.

Lindsay McMahon (7:32)

Yeah. You're on top of it. You're on top of life. But scheduling those things and going and taking time off, like, not fun, right?

Michelle Kaplan (7:40)

Exactly. Or here's one. My taxes are so high, I hate it. I guess it's just unnecessary.

Lindsay McMahon (7:47)

That is one we can all relate to. What's the thing that they say, like the only thing guaranteed in life are taxes and death.

Michelle Kaplan (7:55)

Yes.

Lindsay McMahon (7:56)

Yeah, grotesque idea, right? But it's true. Like, no one likes taxes. Okay?

Michelle Kaplan (8:01)

No, of course not. So, yeah, but necessary evil.

Lindsay McMahon (8:05)

Exactly.

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Lindsay McMahon (9:25)

All right, perfect. So let's see, Michelle, for you, is this expression natural? I mean, do you feel like you drop this all the time?

Michelle Kaplan (9:31)

Not all the time, but it, it certainly comes out, you know, freak frequently enough where it's a part of my vocabulary. I mean, it's not something that's just like, oh, once a year, I say. And no, I think, yeah, I like it. I think it's very expressive. Sometimes it's, it's, it feels like the absolute perfect way to describe a certain situation. Right. It's like, oh, this is like, I can't think of a better way to put this. It's so good. It's a necessary evil. What about you?

Lindsay McMahon (10:02)

Yeah, I agree sometimes it's a spot on expression and I know a lot of our listeners are really looking for those spot on expressions. I mean, we have a few that we can give our listeners now, Michelle, that are, you know, they're close seconds.

Michelle Kaplan (10:14)

Right.

Lindsay McMahon (10:14)

But they're not quite as exact.

Michelle Kaplan (10:16)

Right, right, right, exactly. So, yeah, the first one is a fact of life, so that's a good one too. But yeah, not, not quite as expressive, but you could use this as well. So, for example, when you're an adult, you have to decide what to eat for every dinner. It's exhausting, but a fact of life.

Lindsay McMahon (10:35)

Honestly, I think I was a little coddled when I was in high school because when I went to or Even I rem. Find. Maybe I shared this before when we talked about this, but I remember realizing that people work full time jobs for the first time. Like, my friend worked at a candy shop, and she worked Saturdays and Sundays, 9 to 5. And I was blown. This is in high school. And I was blown away by this. I was like, you're gonna work full time in high school. You know, and that was a necessary evil. Right. She needed to work, which most people do. But I feel like I was a little bit, like, I don't know, I didn't realize that a lot of people were gonna hit hard in adult life, you know?

Michelle Kaplan (11:13)

Y. Yeah, I know. Well, it's like whenever my son wishes he was an adult, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, but he can't. He can't appreciate it, you know, he's just funny. I mean, here's another one. Unavoidable.

Lindsay McMahon (11:29)

Yeah, go ahead. So dealing with insurance companies for prescriptions is unavoidable if you want to get your medications. This is a unique necessary evil in the US I think more so than other countries. Other countries have this more figured out than we do. We do have a bit of a problem for a healthcare in the U.S. michelle. Right.

Michelle Kaplan (11:49)

Yes. Something. You get surprise bills. I just got one the other day for like $500. Yeah. For a doctor visit, which was about five minutes long.

Lindsay McMahon (12:00)

Ouch.

Michelle Kaplan (12:01)

Ouch. Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (12:02)

These things happen here. It's crazy stuff.

Michelle Kaplan (12:05)

Yes. It's very upsetting. But it's just one of those things. Which is our next expression. One of those things. So here is funny. Packing extra underwear for a trip is just one of those things. Everyone does.

Lindsay McMahon (12:19)

That's right.

Michelle Kaplan (12:20)

Do you do that, Lindsay? Do you pack like. Like they say, have you seen those memes where it's like, why do I pack? Like, for a trip? Like, I'm gonna be like making in my pants every day.

Lindsay McMahon (12:29)

I always overpack, Michelle. No matter where I'm going, what I'm doing, I over. I'm staying in an Airbnb right now, and I overpacked to stay three days in an Airbnb. Like, I don't know what I'm thinking.

Michelle Kaplan (12:39)

You never know. And then. And then, and then, you know what that perpetuates. More laundry at the end.

Lindsay McMahon (12:46)

It's like in my head, I'm going to the North Pole where I could never buy a sweater. I could never, you know, but it. But I'm going to an Airbnb in my own neighborhood and I overpack. It's like, what Is what is happening.

Michelle Kaplan (12:56)

I don't know. I get it. I get it though. It's. Yeah, just one of those things. Lindsay, do you have a favorite or any other examples that you can think of?

Lindsay McMahon (13:09)

You mean of a necessary evil? Yeah, I feel like we've covered a lot of them honestly. The drudgery of paying your credit card

Michelle Kaplan (13:14)

bill,

Lindsay McMahon (13:17)

you know, vacuuming, cleaning, laundry. All these chores that maintain your life but don't make it better. But again if you don't do them, it makes it worse.

Michelle Kaplan (13:26)

Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (13:27)

Sitting in traffic. I guess if you commute to work. Right? Yeah, yeah, yep.

Michelle Kaplan (13:32)

So definitely there, there are tons of examples of these. If you think about your daily life, just go through mentally in your day all the things that you mean. A lot of chores, I would say I mean all chores.

Lindsay McMahon (13:44)

I don't know exactly.

Michelle Kaplan (13:45)

Unless you like really love to vacuum. You know, some people do some. I mean some people I think my sister in law, like, I think she really loves like enjoy mopping the floor. Yeah, she. I don't know, some, some people like it. So. Okay, let's do a role play here. Here we are friends and we're at the gym.

Lindsay McMahon (14:05)

All right, here we go.

Michelle Kaplan (14:06)

Okay. I don't love lifting weights, but I know it's important, especially as I get older.

Lindsay McMahon (14:11)

Yeah, it's just one of those things.

Michelle Kaplan (14:13)

Yeah. Do you wash your hair every time you work out?

Lindsay McMahon (14:16)

Yeah, it's annoying, but it's a necessary evil. I have to be fresh for work. It's unavoidable.

Michelle Kaplan (14:21)

I feel like I always bring my entire bathroom to the gym so I can be ready for work.

Lindsay McMahon (14:26)

It's a fact of life. We're just commenting on the day to day. So. Yeah, a lot of people don't necessarily like lifting weights, but especially as a woman, you know, in our 30s, 40s, we need to do that. They say that now. A lot of research is coming out on that, Michelle. Have you seen that?

Michelle Kaplan (14:42)

Yeah. They say, you know, how, how important weightlifting is even more than cardio in some ways.

Lindsay McMahon (14:49)

Oh, I know. I was surprised when I saw that cuz I always thought I just need to run, you know, I just need to run and, and you know, stay fit. But now they're saying in some ways lifting weights does double the work for you cuz you burn calories faster. Just it makes your bone structure better. All these good things. So.

Michelle Kaplan (15:06)

Yeah, yeah, I got any. Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (15:09)

So. All right, so what did we use here, Michelle?

Michelle Kaplan (15:12)

Okay, so you said. I said it's important especially as I get older and you said, yeah, it's just one of those things. So what do you mean by that?

Lindsay McMahon (15:19)

It's just one of those things. I could continue this sentence, but I stopped it.

Michelle Kaplan (15:23)

Right.

Lindsay McMahon (15:23)

It's just one of those things that we have to do.

Michelle Kaplan (15:25)

Yeah, basically. Yeah. So. But I know what you mean by just saying it's just one of those things, right?

Lindsay McMahon (15:30)

Yeah.

Michelle Kaplan (15:30)

Yes. And then. And then I said, you. I said, do you wash your hair every time you work out? And you said, yeah, it's annoying, but it's a necessary evil.

Lindsay McMahon (15:41)

And then I said, I have to be fresh for work. It's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. I cannot avoid the fact that I need to look good when I walk into work. Right.

Michelle Kaplan (15:52)

And then I said, I feel like I always bring my entire bathroom to the gym so I can be ready for work. So it sounds like we go in the morning, right?

Lindsay McMahon (15:58)

Sounds like. Yeah.

Michelle Kaplan (16:00)

And then you said, it's a fact of life.

Lindsay McMahon (16:03)

I could not be a morning gym person. It just feels like, oh, a whole task to get together everything and plan ahead so much I don't know that

Michelle Kaplan (16:10)

I'm not a morning anything person. So it's a Certainly can't. Yeah. No.

Lindsay McMahon (16:16)

All right, guys, another great episode that we mentioned earlier. This is where we started talking about this term necessary evil. So you can go back and check it out. It's on business. English it's episode 538. Should you say essential, necessary, or important? That was a good one, Michelle.

Michelle Kaplan (16:31)

Yes, exactly. So check that out. All right. Takeaways for today. Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (16:37)

Michelle, what does it all mean for connection? What do you think? I mean, there's something very human about the fact that you have to clean your house.

Michelle Kaplan (16:44)

Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (16:44)

You know, you have to do the laundry. You have to pay your credit card bill.

Michelle Kaplan (16:48)

Yeah.

Lindsay McMahon (16:48)

What do you think?

Michelle Kaplan (16:49)

For connection? Yeah, I think this is great because in some ways there. I mean, there's so many things that are just universal necessary evil. So it really can bring about a lot of connection just by the. Everybody has to have clean clothes. Right. You have to, you know, do certain things in your life that you don't want to do, but you have to. And so everybody can relate. There is definitely some universal ones, and then there are some individual ones that, you know, you can share for yourself and. And show who you are. So I just think it's a really fun and useful expression. Great way to connect with people.

Lindsay McMahon (17:23)

Yeah. It's also a cool way to talk about emerging necessary evils. Like we talked about lifting weights right now. It's protein is a huge. Is very hot on Instagra family. Yeah. Yeah. If you go to any like, you know, everyone's talking about protein. I'm not sure how. I don't know like what they'll say.

Michelle Kaplan (17:42)

Oh yeah, right.

Lindsay McMahon (17:43)

I, I don't know.

Michelle Kaplan (17:44)

I don't know. But then, then I saw something the other day that said the new protein is gonna be fiber. So it's like.

Lindsay McMahon (17:50)

That's hilarious. Yeah. So we don't know. But you know, this gives you a way you could potentially start talking about trending necessary evils. Like we said, like. Yeah. Once. If you feel like you've accepted that new research and the person in front of you has, then it's a necessary evil that you can complain about or talk about with your friend. Right.

Michelle Kaplan (18:09)

Yes. So there you go. So many opportunities to connect and yeah, definitely give this a try and you will hear it out and about. So now you know what to do with it.

Lindsay McMahon (18:20)

All right, good stuff, Michelle. Talk to you very soon. Have a good day.

Michelle Kaplan (18:23)

Do you too. Bye bye.

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