AEE: It's Not What You Say, It's How You Say It

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Ears English Podcast – “It’s Not What You Say, It’s How You Say It”

Hosts: Lindsay McMahon & Michelle Kaplan
Date: October 7, 2025
Episode Focus: Intonation in American English—especially for ESL learners in professional and business contexts.

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Overview

This episode dives into the crucial role of intonation—the melody and rise-and-fall pattern of speech—in effective English communication. Lindsay and Michelle guide listeners through practical examples, demonstrating how even correct grammar and vocabulary may fall flat if the delivery is off. The episode centers on how intonation impacts meaning and connection, especially in business settings, and offers actionable tips for mastering upward and downward inflection when asking questions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Intonation Matters (00:00–02:26)

• Intonation shapes connection: Even perfect grammar can leave listeners confused or disengaged if your intonation doesn't convey interest and clarity.
• Practical business impact: Flat or unnatural intonation can hinder relationships and cause misunderstandings in professional settings.
• “It’s not just the words we say, it’s how we deliver them that’s huge.” — Lindsay (02:15)

2. Course Announcement (02:26–04:43)

• Launch of a new course: “Professional English Level 2,” focused on high-stakes business moments and building confidence through real corporate scenarios.
  • Developed with professionals from Morgan Stanley, Microsoft, KPMG, and more.
  • Early adopters gain extra support and access to live weekly speaking events.
  • Sign-up at allearsenglish.com/career (C-A-R-E-E-R).
• “The goal is to make it so that it’s not difficult for someone to understand you.” — Michelle (06:25)

3. Intonation: The Core Lesson (04:45–14:13)

• Common learner challenge: Many ESL students have solid vocabulary and grammar but struggle with delivery—making their speech sound unnatural.
  • “You don’t want to distract the person... We want to try and make it as easy as possible.” — Michelle (06:25)
• Yes/No Questions: Should have upward intonation at the end.
  • Examples: “Are you ready to record?” “Did you just start here today?” (09:02)
  • Wrong intonation (flat/downward) makes the speaker sound uninterested.
  • “It’s almost the equivalent of you’re facing me...and then you’re turning your back.” — Lindsay (10:15)
• WH- Questions (who, what, where, when, why, how): Should have downward intonation at the end.
  • Examples: “Where are you from?” “What time is the meeting today?” (11:01)
  • Upwards intonation on WH- questions sounds unsure or awkward.
  • “You don’t sound as confident.” — Michelle (11:15)

Notable Moment: Analogy on Intonation

• Physical analogy to illustrate engagement: Flat or downward intonation on yes/no questions is “like you don’t want an answer.” — Lindsay (10:15)

Real-life Example

• Lindsay shares a story about a tour guide whose pause patterns were distracting, illustrating how delivery affects communication beyond just intonation. (07:56)

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4. Nuances & Exceptions (12:09–14:13)

• There are exceptions: Occasionally, native speakers use non-standard intonation for effect (e.g., in loud settings or for emphasis).
• General rule for learners: Focus on mastering standard patterns first; with practice, intonation will become natural.

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5. Practice & Role Play (13:19–16:47)

• Lindsay and Michelle act out a first-day-at-work scenario, demonstrating natural question intonation.
  • “So great to meet you. Is today your first day?” (Upward intonation, yes/no, 13:32)
  • “How long have you been working here?” (Downward intonation, WH-question, 13:36)
• Analysis of sentence “melody”: Sometimes sentences rise in pitch before falling, not taking a “nosedive”—illustrating the complexity of intonation in natural dialogue.
  • “You still have to have variety in the rest of the sentence.” — Michelle (16:40)

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6. Application and Mindset for Learners (14:42–15:00)

• Encourage learners to actively listen and sort real-life examples into “up” and “down” boxes.
• With exposure, intonation will stop feeling forced or mechanical.

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7. Intonation in Business**: Final Thoughts (17:58–18:53)

• Powerful business example: Presenting data to executives requires more than accuracy; intonation draws in the listener and builds trust.
  • “...if you don’t have the intonation that makes them actually listen to you, you’re going to fail.” — Lindsay (18:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s not just the words we say, it’s how we deliver them that’s huge.” — Lindsay (02:15)
• “The goal is to make it so that it’s not difficult for someone to understand you... We want them to be relaxed when they’re listening.” — Michelle (06:25)
• “It’s almost the equivalent of, you’re facing me, you’re asking a question, and then you’re turning your back to me.” — Lindsay (10:15)
• “With WH- questions, those ones go down at the end... Instead of 'Where are you from?' it would be 'Where are you from?'” — Michelle (11:15)

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Important Timestamps

• Intonation role-play introduction & awkward intonation example: 01:10–01:45
• Course announcement and what makes it unique: 02:42–04:43
• Explaining yes/no vs. WH- question intonation: 05:19–12:09
• Role-play illustrating intonation in action: 13:19–14:13, 15:52–16:47
• Final business presentation analogy: 17:58–18:44

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Tone and Style

• Warm, supportive, and learner-centered.
• Frequent encouragement to participate and build confidence; “Connection, not perfection” is a guiding theme.
• Clear, practical advice balanced with humor and relatable stories.

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Summary

This episode provides ESL learners with a toolkit to refine intonation—crucial for sounding natural and confident in English, especially in professional settings. By distinguishing between upward and downward patterns in questions, learners can avoid misunderstandings, reduce listener distraction, and forge real connections. Lindsay and Michelle give both rules and exceptions, emphasizing practice and awareness until intonation becomes intuitive. The episode concludes with encouragement to join their new course and keep striving for effective, connection-focused communication.

Transcript

[A]

This is the All Ears English podcast. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Welcome to the All Ears English podcast. Downloaded more than 200 million times. Are you feeling stuck with your English? We'll show you how to become fearless and fluent by focusing on connection, not perfection. With your American hosts, Lindsay McMahon, the English adventurer, and Michelle Kaplan, the New York radio girl, coming to you from Colorado and New York City, usa. Sometimes you can have all of the grammar and vocabulary, right? But people still ask you to repeat. And in the business world, this can have major consequences. So today we show you how to implement an intonation trick in business. Listen in. Hello, Michelle. How's it going today?

[B]

I'm good, Lindsay. Are you ready to record?

[A]

Yeah, Michelle, I'm ready to record.

[B]

Okay, good, good. And did you have a good weekend?

[A]

What's going on, Michelle?

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

You sound kind of different.

[B]

Oh, you mean because of my intonation?

[A]

Yeah, I guess that's what it is. Intonation really matters a lot, doesn't it? You sounded strange. You didn't sound like yourself.

[B]

Yeah, it sounded uncomfortable, almost. Was it almost hard for you to understand me, to get my meaning? It's just kind of.

[A]

Kind of felt like, yeah, I wasn't.

[B]

Speaking to you, you know, it didn't feel natural, right?

[A]

No, exactly, exactly.

[B]

So, guys, we are going to talk to you today all about how we ask questions and how our intonation should be at the ends of questions. Okay? So because this is very important, especially in business, when meeting people, you're building connections. And if you go up to someone and say, are you ready to record? Did you have a good weekend? It's just there's. It's not gonna sound right.

[A]

Yeah, it doesn't work, right, Michelle?

[B]

It doesn't work.

[A]

It's not just the words we say, it's how we deliver them that's huge. I mean, we know that English is a stress timed language and intonation therefore really matters. Right? Love that.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So we are going to dive into this today. This is going to be really fun. Before we get into it, I. I can't tell you how excited I am for this. Lindsay, we have a very special announcement. Do you want to.

[A]

We do, we do. We are so excited to announce that our brand new course, professional English Level 2, is open and available for new students this week. We've been working on this for the last few months now. Michelle, what is the focus of this course? How is this different from an average business English course?

[B]

Right. So this is about Those high stakes moments in business. Right. So maybe it's when your anxiety peaks, you're just at the, at the moment where you're so nervous and your career is on the line. Right. So we're really focusing on these moments in this course, on how to get you comfortable and more confident in them.

[A]

Exactly. And the reason we know exactly what those moments are is that our development team for this course has worked in the corporate world for 20 years as a consultant at companies like Morgan Stanley, Microsoft, KPMG and, and others. So this course and the scenarios that we work on come directly from the corporate world. Michelle.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That is so cool. I, I really love that. So guys, you gotta get in now, right? And be one of the first. Get in, you know, make that jump and really start to see the difference and how confident you feel, especially in those moments where it really, really matters. Yeah.

[A]

And the cool thing about getting in early, being an early adopter of a course, is that you usually get special attention. We're gonna ask you how going, we're going to want to know how the course is going for you. And so there's a special level of connection when you're an early adopter of a course. So we recommend getting in now, of course, you'll be connected to the community. You'll be invited to all of the live weekly speaking events. So go to allearsenglish.com career. That is the way to get in today.

[B]

And how do we spell career?

[A]

Good question, Michelle. So, so again, allearsenglish.com C-A R E E R. Yes.

[B]

Make sure we get those two E's.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So we are going to give you just, excuse me, a sneak peek of something that is in the court. So again, talking about those question types, talking about the beginning when I was asking Lindsay these questions and yes, all the words were correct. Right. But something felt off.

[A]

Oh my gosh. And that is one of the pain points. Later in the year we're going to be talking more about pronunciation. But a lot of our students, our listeners are, might feel like they've got all the grammar down, they've got all the vocabulary, but then it's about delivery, Right. And we do address delivery, intonation, et cetera in this course. Michelle.

[B]

Absolutely. So one of the first things actually very early on in the course we do is talk about question types. So we talk about question types like the yes or no question and the WH question. So who, what, where, when, why?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which is the one that, the one that fits it. It's always Clumped into the WH question. I know there's a W and an H in that word.

[A]

So it seems to fit. It seems to fit.

[B]

It fits, yeah. So let's start with yes or no questions. So, Lindsay, these are the ones I was asking you in. In the beginning. How was your. Oh, no, what did I say? Did you have a good weekend? Yeah, it just. And I was. Yeah, yeah. What did I. How did I sound? What was I doing with my intonation?

[A]

I guess it was a little flat. Was it flat? Is that what you were doing? Or were you going.

[B]

It was flat, but I was going down.

[A]

Okay, you were going down. Yeah. And it just didn't seem to me the way it felt was you were asking the question, but you weren't necessarily that interested in the answer.

[B]

Right, right. Yeah, exactly. So it just sounded a little odd. And actually, you know, if somebody. That's the thing is the. The goal is to make it so that it's not difficult for someone to understand you. We want them to be relaxed when they're listening, focus on what you're saying and not be like, what did they say? Because that's the person putting in extra work. So we want to try and make it as easy as possible. So one of the ways that we can do this, because you don't want to distract the person, and then they're thinking, wait, what they. What is this? Why are they sounding like that? Right.

[A]

Yeah, good.

[B]

And that's distracting. So we want to take that out of the way. So with the yes or no questions, your intonation should go up or down, Lindsay. At the end.

[A]

It should go up at the end. It should go up at the end. And, you know, it's also the fact that who's. Listen. Whoever's listening to us has a frame, has an expectation of how you'll use intonation depending on what kind of question you're asking. A yes or no question or a WH question. Right. They have a frame, and so we need to fit into that frame so there's no confusion.

[B]

Right. And the thing is, they might not even realize that they have this frame.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That they have this preconception of what the question should sound like. Sure. But they're. So they're not going to think, oh, they're. They went there. They went the wrong way at the end of the question. They're not going to think about it like that. They're just going to think something sounds. Yes. Weird. And they're not going to be able to know what it is.

[A]

Exactly. This happened actually on my trip to Norway. We went to. We did a lot of museums because it rained so much. And we went to. And we did a tour. The tour guide, I think, was Brazilian. And we noticed that he was pausing a lot. And at first I thought, wow, he's using pauses. That's. That's great. You know, that's. A lot of people don't pause enough. Then I started listening to where he was pausing, and it was. It made it very disjointed. And today we're talking more about intonation rather than pausing. But it really distracted me from what he was. The information he was giving. It was almost pausing in the middle of chunks. It was strange. Yeah.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. And I think that word distracting is the key here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. We don't. We want to speak in a way that we're, you know, able to. Of course, there are always times when there's going to be exceptions, but we generally want to speak in that way where it's not distracting. They're able to focus on what you're actually saying rather than thinking, wait, what? Right. Things different.

[A]

Yes. Do we have some examples, Michelle, of how. How this should sound? What we mean by upward intonation for a. Yes. No question.

[B]

Okay. Well, just, first of all, I realized maybe. So what I should have said in the beginning was, are you ready to record? And did you have a good weekend? Right. That's how you should have Much. That sounds much better. Much more natural. So a couple other examples here are. Did you just start here today?

[A]

Yeah. So you're really coming up and I know. So my frame as a native speaker, as a listener is. I know you're expecting a yes, no answer. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Or just, Are you enjoying working here? Right.

[A]

Or did you always want to be a doctor? Right. So clearly there's an upward intonation at the end.

[B]

Yes. Yes. This sounds much more natural. This is really good for building relationships. You know, we always talk about asking questions, having the other person talk, listening, things like that. So this is just a really key piece. Yeah.

[A]

And I love to make analogies to physical movement. So I feel like at the top of the episode, Michelle, when you ask those questions but you went down or you stayed flat, it's almost the equivalent of you're facing me, you're asking a question, and then you're turning your back to me because you're acting like you don't want an answer, you know?

[B]

Right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. But after the break, we will talk about when you would use the downward. Because we don't use upward for every question, which is interesting. So we're gonna talk about that. Yep.

[A]

So hang around, guys. We'll be right back. All right, Michelle, we are back from break. So we've just talked about the importance of the upward intonation when we're asking a yes, no question. But that's not the whole story, is it?

[B]

No, it's not the whole story. Yeah. So these WH questions are what we're moving on to. So again, who, what, where, when, why, how? So, Lindsay, how does this sound to you? Where are you from? What time is the meaning today?

[A]

A little peculiar. I like that word, peculiar. It's a fun one, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sounds awkward, Michelle. Almost like you're questioning yourself. You're questioning your question.

[B]

Yes, exactly Right. And that's the thing, is you don't sound as confident. So. So with the WH questions, those ones go down at the end. So instead of where are you from? It would be where are you from? What time is the meeting today?

[A]

When should I call you to discuss our plans for the meeting?

[B]

Right, exactly. Y. Yeah. So. Or, yeah, another example. Which company did you move here from?

[A]

Or how was your first day? And it's interesting, when we, as a native speaker, when I sit down and I look at this and I look at differentiating between the two, sometimes they get confused because they feel similar, but they're really not. It's where are you going up and where are you going down? So with these at the end, we are slightly falling downward at the end, right?

[B]

Yes, exactly. And it is true. And are there exceptions? Yes, there are times when you might hear a native speaker do something different. Right. And, you know, just depending on what they're talking about or how they're talking.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Whatever it may be, it does happen. So, you know. But I would say for the majority of the time. And what you want to be focusing on at this level would be, you know, just sticking with this and getting really confident with that before kind of breaking some of the rules.

[A]

There are some exceptions, you're right, Michelle. Like, for example, if I'm in a loud hockey game and I ask someone that question, and then they say, what? What? You might use an upward intonation the second time or the third time you repeat because you're repeating. You're kind of saying, like, are you hearing me right? But, yeah, those are, you know, those are edge cases, as we say in technology. Right, Edge cases.

[B]

Exactly. So, again, you know, focus on these. Focus on the up. So again, the upward for the yes or no. And the downward intonation for the WH question. So should we put it all together?

[A]

Let's put it all together. Let's do it. All right, so here we go. Michelle. So here we are meeting for the first time, and it is your first day of work, and I am your colleague. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Here we go.

[A]

So great to meet you. Is today your first day?

[B]

Yes. How long have you been working here?

[A]

Three years. Welcome.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

So what brings you to the company?

[B]

Well, this is actually a bit of a career switch for me. I was in marketing before, but.

[A]

Oh, well, there's tons of overlapping skills.

[B]

Yeah. Have you always worked in this industry?

[A]

Yeah, for years.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Nice. Sounds very natural. Sometimes I overthink this and then I question if I'm doing it right.

[B]

I know. Well, that. I know. It's funny. That's why I actually wrote in.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

But.

[A]

But.

[B]

Right. Because I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna forget. Because again, it's not so much like native speakers aren't thinking. We don't have to go up, I have to go down. Right. So what. So it just kind of flows and again, we do break the rules. And it is so interchangeable just based on your personality, how you speak. Yes, but. So it's funny as a native speaker to put this into these boxes. Yeah. It's really important. But to. Right. Did you have the. You have the same feeling, same express.

[A]

Same experience, but for our listeners, guys, what you can do is you can start to just. If it's. If it's confusing or anything to you right now, you can start to listen and notice and put examples in boxes yourself. And we. You're going to get to the point eventually where you're not thinking about it anymore. Right. That's the goal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And you know what? You can always contact us. Like, let's say you are listening and you hear an example that doesn't fit this mold. Yeah. And we could even answer a question about that and discuss like, okay, why maybe would that person have, you know, had a different intonation and really get into it? So that. Those are other kinds of questions which would be really interesting to answer on the shows. Right. Lindsay? For sure. If somebody put in, you know, try, try. And you could even do like a voicemail to us, and then we could. Yeah. You know, so we're going to be.

[A]

Talking a lot more about pronunciation as we move deeper into the fall. So. Absolutely. Pronunciat association, intonation. And we have it here in this course. And we also have it in more things coming up soon. So. But today we want to remind our listeners, Michelle, about what is available right now as we finish up today's episode. One more time.

[B]

Do we want to go through the role play?

[A]

Sure, we can go through it. Yeah. I'm rushing through this episode.

[B]

Okay, so, well, you said, so great to meet you. Is today your first day? Because yes or no question, today our first day.

[A]

So you clearly cleanly went up at the end there. Right. And then for the next one, you said, how long have you been working here? So it's almost like you, you go up on working. How long have you been working here? But the very end goes down here. I'm coming down.

[B]

Right, right. It's interesting. It's almost like you have to go a little bit up to get to that downward part. Right, right, right. It's almost like. Because otherwise it's like a nose dive. It's just like there still has to be. You can't just be like, how long have you been working here?

[A]

No, yeah, no, you're right. So there is an up in there. It's just not happening at the very end.

[B]

Yeah, that's the key. You still have to have variety in. In the rest of the sentence.

[A]

Yes. Then.

[B]

And then you said, what brings you to the company? And again. Company, yeah.

[A]

And it's interesting with this one, I feel like part of that word, you are going up and then at the end of it, you're going down. So again, we're going to get more into pronunciation later this fall. But this is fascinating. And then the very last thing that was said was that you said, I asked you. Oh, well, there's tons of overlapping skills.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm saying that. That you're bringing in skills. And you said, yeah. Have you always worked in this industry? Now, that's a yes or no question. So I'm going up. Right?

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, a lot of good examples here. But yeah, guys, this is going to be so valuable in the course. And this is, you know, very early on in the course. So you'll be able to, you know, learn more about this. And again, these are about these pain points, these moments. Yeah, you're kind of like, oh, you know, I feel anxious. I feel that my career is on the line and how am I, how am I going to make a good impression? Make sure that I'm building these relationships. True. Yeah. I mean, really important. And these are. This is, you know, our goal with this course. Course. To get you to feel comfortable in these moments. Exactly.

[A]

And an example of one of the moments is let's say you have been analyzing risk for a project and so you've been running numbers. And you all, you know all your numbers, you know your data very well, you've got that covered. But now you have to present that to the executive board. And the executive board doesn't want to hear all the numbers. They don't want to hear about your methodology. They want a story. They actually want recommendations. And so what this course does is it gives you that final skill of how do we put together a story and recommendations. And intonation and pronunciation is a huge part of that because you could have all the vocabulary, all the grammar, all the structure, but if you don't have the intonation that makes them actually listen to you, you're going to fail. Right?

[B]

True. Yeah. Well said, Lindsay. Guys, we're so excited for this course. Again, go to allearsenglish.com career.

[A]

You got it.

[B]

Again, that's C A R E E R. Yes.

[A]

Perfect. All right, Michelle, looking forward to this course. Can't wait to hear what students think about it. Guys, we'll see you in the course very soon. All right. Thanks for being here today, Michelle.

[B]

All right. Bye, Lindsay. You too. Bye. Bye.

[A]

Thanks for listening. To all ears. English. Would you like to know your English level? Take our two minute quiz. Go to allearsenglish.com forward SLF fluency score. And if you believe in connection, not perfection, then hit subscribe now to make sure you don't miss anything. See you next time.

[C]

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[A]

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