How to Save America: Mark Cuban and Tucker Carlson Debate | All-In Summit 2025

Summary

All-In Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: How to Save America: Mark Cuban and Tucker Carlson Debate | All-In Summit 2025
Date: September 9, 2025

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Overview

In this high-energy episode recorded at the All-In Summit 2025, the All-In Podcast crew hosts an incisive “debate” with entrepreneur Mark Cuban and commentator Tucker Carlson. The conversation delves into big issues threatening and potentially “saving” America—including health care reform, the dysfunction of political parties, economic populism, job displacement in the AI era, and American national identity. Both guests push for honesty, transparency, and new approaches in American public life, with plenty of sharp critiques and memorable moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Cuban on Health Care Disruption

[02:38 – 13:05]

• Genesis of Cost Plus Drugs:
  Cuban started the Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company to bring transparency and affordability to prescription medications after seeing egregious price hikes and opacity in pharma.

  “No one knew what the price of any medication was. And there was zero transparency…Trust equals transparency divided by self-interest.” – Mark Cuban [04:01]

• The Business Model:
  • Publishes all prices, actual costs, and a 15% markup.
  • First of its kind; no other US pharmacy chain offered such transparency.
  • Local pickup and mail order options with flat fees.
• Opaque Healthcare System:
  • Critiques pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs), their control over formularies, and their anti-competitive contracts with manufacturers.
  • Argues PBMs should be “deleted,” or at minimum forced to separate formulary management.
• Systemic Issues:
  • The “original sin” isn’t employer-tied insurance but massive vertical integration in healthcare firms that game the system for profit.
  • Consequences for ordinary Americans: High deductibles, care avoidance even among insured due to costs.

Notable Quote:

“I want to fuck up healthcare. Who here thinks the financial side of healthcare is great? Nobody. It's a fucking mess.” – Mark Cuban [13:18]

2. Mark Cuban on Politics and Party Dysfunction

[15:37 – 18:43]

• Political Independence:
  • Insists he’s “not a Democrat” despite rumors and says, “Both parties suck.”
  • Argues for moderate, common-sense, independent candidates evaluated per their policies.
• Failure to ‘Sell’:
  • Criticizes Democrats for being unable to sell their own policy successes (e.g., ACA subsidies), leading to missed messaging opportunities.
  • Republicans, too, are oblivious to how their inaction could damage constituents.
• Rising Economic Populism:
  • Warns against “ban the billionaires” rhetoric as an unserious distraction.

Notable Quote:

“If it were up to me, I'd kick both parties to the curb. I think both parties suck.” – Mark Cuban [15:58]

3. The Cuban and Carlson Debate: Democracy, Populism, Social Media

[20:00 – 25:08]

• Pandering vs. Democracy:
  • Cuban critiques “pandering” politicians. Carlson argues for a balance—defining America’s founders as seeking to avoid both mob rule and oligarchy.
  • Both agree the system has left basic needs unaddressed, prompting frustration.
• Rise of Economic Populism:
  • Carlson observes that figures on left and right now use algorithmic social media to inflame and organize, similar to Trump but with inverted rhetoric (e.g., Mamdani).
  • Predicts more “economic populism” as younger generations can’t afford homes, jobs, or a clear future.

Notable Quote:

“That’s the actual next chapter that’s going to scare the shit out of everyone in this room…when your kids can’t buy a house or even dream of buying a house…you’re ripe for some kind of revolution.” – Tucker Carlson [23:12]

4. Rebuilding the American Dream – Entrepreneurs & Housing

[25:08 – 28:22]

• Cuban: America has forgotten about entrepreneurs; small businesses are the true engine of job creation and should be the focus of policy, not just massive corporate investments.
• Carlson: Housing is core to national stability—not just shelter, but autonomy and property rights. Critiques both parties for failing to tackle affordability.

Notable Quote:

“There are 33 million companies, 30 million of them are solopreneurs…60% of new jobs are created by small companies. I think they're being ignored.” – Mark Cuban [25:18]

5. AI, Automation, and Job Displacement

[34:08 – 38:57]

• AI Will Reshape Labor:
  • Both Cuban and Carlson debate whether automation will cause massive, sudden job loss.
  • Upside: Carlson jokes about “removing lawyers and nonprofit sector employees” [35:04], but worries about revolution among newly unemployed elites.
• Cuban’s Optimism:
  • Advises college students to focus on AI-native skillsets for SMEs.
  • Predicts that AI-driven companies will be smaller, faster, and more efficient.
  • Robotics will be about integrating with physical reality and daily life, not just factories.

6. American Identity, Demographics, and Population Change

[42:39 – 47:47]

• Demographic Shifts:
  • Carlson sees massive population change as the “story of the West,” raising the stakes for social cohesion.
  • Discusses Canada's rapid population growth and “assisted death” policies as emblematic of Western decline.
• Declining Birthrates:
  • Across the industrialized world, especially secular nations, falling birthrates signal spiritual malaise.
  • For Carlson, “the secular places are killing themselves and the religious places…it’s not happening.”

Notable Quote:

“Society where people have to be encouraged to have sex is a society that has decided to extinguish itself.” – Tucker Carlson [47:52]

7. Mental Health, SSRIs, and America's “Soul”

[48:26 – 50:31]

• Carlson fiercely critiques pervasive use of SSRIs and other psychotropic drugs, arguing they dull emotional range and contribute to national malaise.
• Warns drugging a fifth of Americans and children is having unforeseen, deep effects.

Notable Quote:

“Emotional range is your soul…there are tens of thousands…probably hundreds of thousands…on SSRIs who feel nothing, who are permanently sexually disabled by these drugs.” – Tucker Carlson [49:04]

8. Geopolitics, Ukraine, Israel, and Antisemitism

[28:48 – 57:51]

• Aid to Ukraine:
  • Cuban is personally supportive but not deeply studied; Carlson challenges the morality of “we” aid vs. personal responsibility.
• On Rising Antisemitism:
  • Carlson acknowledges rising antisemitism on “left and right…for sure,” denounces it, and emphasizes his critique is always about governments not ethnic groups.
  • Urges that criticism of the Israeli government isn’t antisemitic any more than criticizing the US government is anti-American.
• On Punishing the Innocent:
  • Carlson repeatedly insists the “West” is defined by upholding justice—punishing the guilty, not the innocent.

Notable Quote:

“If you're like, I love Israel…and this is not good. Shut up. That's not helpful at all. You turn your allies into enemies by acting that way…conflating a nation state with an ethnic group is not a long term strategy. It's not wise because you are tied to the temporal politics, the politics of the moment.” – Tucker Carlson [53:16]

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• Mark Cuban on Health Care Transparency:

  “Trust equals transparency divided by self interest.” [04:01]

• Mark Cuban on Vertical Integration:

  “The original sin is allowing these companies to become vertically integrated and enormous.” [09:18]

• Mark Cuban on Political Parties:

  “Both parties suck. Right.” [15:58]

• Tucker Carlson on Populist Outrage:

  “That's the actual next chapter that's going to scare the shit out of everyone in this room…” [23:12]

• Mark Cuban on Small Businesses:

  “There are 33 million companies, 30 million of them are solopreneurs…60% of new jobs are created by small companies. I think they're being ignored.” [25:18]

• Tucker Carlson on AI Displacement:

  “If you do that to lawyers and nonprofit sector employees…you will get a revolution.” [35:04]

• Tucker Carlson on Population and Society:

  “Society where people have to be encouraged to have sex is a society that has decided to extinguish itself. Because that’s like…you’re at war with nature.” [47:52]

• Tucker Carlson on Antisemitism Claims:

  “Attacking my children over it? Yeah, I’m aware…You turn your allies into enemies by acting that way.” [52:52 / 53:16]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:38–13:05 | Mark Cuban on disrupting health care | | 15:37–18:43 | Cuban’s political independence & critiques on party system | | 20:00–25:08 | Democracy vs. populism debate w/ Tucker Carlson | | 25:08–28:22 | Entrepreneurs, housing, and jobs | | 34:08–38:57 | AI, automation, job displacement; Cuban & Carlson's takes | | 42:39–47:47 | Demographics, spiritual malaise, population decline | | 48:26–50:31 | Conversation on SSRIs, mental health, and “soul” | | 28:48–57:51 | Geopolitics—Ukraine, Israel, claims of antisemitism |

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Memorable Moments

• Mark Cuban’s mission: Disrupting healthcare “to fuck up healthcare” for good—not for profit, but for social impact. ([13:18])
• Carlson’s challenge: “Forcing other people to help is not charity.” ([29:23])
• Laughter and banter: Regular, irreverent one-liners, especially about pharmaceuticals, cats vs. dogs, and bestie “meet cute” stories.
• Honest admissions: Both guests admit complexity and uncertainty—Cuban about Ukraine; Carlson about “not being an expert” on all policies.

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Tone & Style

The episode is lively, direct, irreverent, and opinionated. Cuban is passionate and blunt. Carlson is sardonic, combative, and philosophical. The hosts deliver their characteristic mix of informed analysis and cheeky asides, pushing frank, sometimes uncomfortable debates on the issues that matter most.

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Conclusion

This All-In episode delivers a spirited “State of the Union” from two of America’s most visible independent voices, taking listeners on a brisk tour through the country’s thorniest problems and offering bold ideas for reform. Packed with personality, tough love for the American system, and urgent calls for transparency, innovation, and moral clarity, this discussion is must-listen content for anyone frustrated with American business as usual—left, right, or center.

Transcript

[Host]

Mark Cuban is here. Ever since he was a child, he wanted to be an entrepreneur.

[Mark Cuban]

I just love to compete for whatever reason I do. We want all our fellow Americans to succeed.

[Tucker Carlson]

The Dallas Mavericks are NBA champions, the.

[Mark Cuban]

First title in franchise history. One of America's most famous professional sports owners is selling his beloved team.

[Host]

You've done a reality show? Just retired from that. Cashed out of the Mavericks check. Kind of adds up to going to run for president and.

[Mark Cuban]

No. There's no way.

[Tucker Carlson]

No. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mark Cuban.

[Host]

All right.

[David Sachs]

Thanks for being here.

[Host]

God, Mark, it feels like we've been doing this for 30 years. And we have.

[Mark Cuban]

And we have. I know we have.

[Interviewer/Producer]

What GLP are you on?

[Host]

What off menu items?

[Mark Cuban]

None.

[David Sachs]

He's in retirement. Sells a team, takes a break. All the stress.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I mean, you really do look incredible. Like, are you doing something?

[Mark Cuban]

I'm working out.

[Host]

Yeah. We want to know about the off the menu items. We'll talk backstage.

[Mark Cuban]

There are no off the menu items.

[Tucker Carlson]

No off the menu items.

[Host]

Okay. Nothing.

[David Sachs]

Just exercise. Huh?

[Mark Cuban]

Exercise and watching what I eat. Yeah.

[Host]

What was more painful in the last year? Kamala losing or Luka getting traded?

[Mark Cuban]

Luka getting traded. It's not even close. And no, I had nothing to do with it.

[Host]

We know. And, you know, you sold the team. You explained it 50 different ways to Sunday. But there was this idea that you would still be involved to some extent.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, I fucked up. Yeah.

[Host]

Unpack it.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. I mean, when I did the deal, the presumption was that I would still be running basketball. And we tried to put it in the contract, but the NBA said the governor is the governor and they make all final decisions. And then, you know, I was involved. And then we went on this run where we went to the finals. And rather than trying to interject myself all the time. Right. I was like, I don't want to get in the way. We're rolling. And that was a mistake. Right. So it went. There were some, you know, some things that happened internally where, you know, the person who traded Luca didn't want me there. And so they won, I lost.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

That's in the past. I'm still hardcore Mavs and ffl. A rare L for Mark now. There's been plenty of them. I try to minimize them.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Mark, let's talk about health care. You started a business that has had a really profoundly disruptive impact, and it's compounding. Tell the people the business you started and tell them why you started it and why you just think health care is.

[Mark Cuban]

Sure. So I Got a cold email from Dr. Alex Oshmiansky, and he wanted to create what's called a compounding pharmacy, where pharmacies can make drugs per order. And it was right around the time the pharma bro was going to jail for jacking up the price of this generic drug called Daraprim. And I was like, how can he do this, Alex? And, you know, in investigating it, it became very clear very quickly that no one knew what the price of any medication was. And there was zero transparency. And so I was like, this is wrong. So we got the URL costplusdrugs.com and we set it up so that when you go to costplusdrugs.com, costplusdrugs.com and you put in the name of the medication, whatever it may be, we're going to show you our actual cost. And not only are we going to show you our actual cost, we're going to show you our markup, which is only 15% plus for mail order is $5 for shipping, $5 for the pharmacist to review. And then we also have the option of local pickup. Now, what really created the change is we were the first to ever do that. And even to this day, three and a half years later, nobody else publishes their price list for medications. And so when you think about healthcare, particularly the financial side, nobody trusts it at all. And in reality, trust is actually a formula in my mind. Trust equals transparency divided by self interest. We were completely transparent. And in terms of self interest, only a 15% markup on medications, it's fair and it's nothing. And so, you know, I get emails all the time like, you know, I was looking at having to pay 900 or 1,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 and your price is $21.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

But can you but just explain that it's not as if it's 21 versus 40 or 90, it's 21 versus 900. How does that happen?

[Mark Cuban]

Because it can. You know, if you have an entire industry of insurance companies and the pharmacy benefit managers that either own them or they own controlling the flow, the flow in an entire healthcare industry. And it's completely opaque. By design, they get to charge what they want. Because again, unless you know to go to costplusdrugs.com you have no idea what your Medicaid. Did I say that right? Costplusdrugs.com I never. I'm not a [e-mail].

[David Sachs]

But a segment brought to you by.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, right. Cosmosdrugs.com but unless you know to go check pricing with us, you're just walking in and just hoping you can afford it. And the way the system is set up now, you know, even at Medicare Advantage or Medicare Part D will be cheaper than your copay. And particularly if it's co insurance. One of the things that the pharmacy benefit managers did, that's just a complete rip off, they created tiers of medications. And so there's generic tiers, there's brand tiers, but even in Medicare and Medicare Advantage they created these things called specialty generics. They're just pills. It's like a drug called imatinib. All these multiple sclerosis drugs, there's a long list of them, but because they designated them as special, they either use a CO insurance or very high copay. We don't do any of that. So a big part of our business is people on Medicare Advantage, on Medicare Part D, with corporate drugs, you can't.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Get access to or you can't compound or you can't make.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, there's certain drugs, like the biggest brand drugs, the eliquis of the world, we can't get access to them. And the reason why we can't get access to them is because those big PBMs, they have these things called formularies which determine the drugs that you're allowed to have access to for 180 million plus people. And they've literally told the brand manufacturers, if you deal with costplusdrugs.com, we will diminish you on that formulary. So instead of reaching 180 million people and, and not just for the drugs they work with us on, but for their entire portfolio.

[David Sachs]

Sounds like an antitrust case.

[Mark Cuban]

Yes, it is.

[David Sachs]

But Mark, like if this gets changed, the PBMS gets wiped out. First of all, should the PBMs all get deleted? And if they do get deleted, what's going to happen in the marketplace? Is there suddenly going to be a big commoditization, more competitors for your business, et cetera?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't care about the competition because our markup's still going to be 15%. And we're so AI driven, we only have 70 people in the entire company and, and we manufacture drugs in the whole nine yards. So if they're all wiped out, or the easier approach is require that the formularies are segregated from the PBMs because all they really do is auction off access to those formularies. And when they do that.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So do you think the PBM should be deleted?

[Mark Cuban]

Well, there's pass through PBMs. I mean the shit that PBMs do are just insane. Like if you wanted to go, if your company, if you get your insurance from your employer and they wanted to go to Lilly or Novo Norse to do a wellness program to determine who's Most suited for GLP1s, they're not allowed to do that. And on top of that, all reason is because contractually they don't want, they get blocked out.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

They want you to go direct, they.

[Mark Cuban]

Don'T want you to go direct. And on top of that, like you would think it'd be valuable for the claims for all the people who use, you know, Zepbound or whatever, the GLP wants to go to the manufacturers so they can determine adherence, what's working, you know, issues not allowed. In fact, they'll charge them to get access to that.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Are there things that the government agencies or next round of legislation can do to take the advantages of what you've learned and apply it so that everybody can get the benefit of this? Well, and have you talked to the administration about that?

[Mark Cuban]

I mean, I've talked to some people, but then they say we're not going to tell anybody. We talk to you. But you know, the simplest approach really is just market driven. So where you guys get your insurance for yourselves, for the besties, for the companies that you guys work with out there, tell them, don't use one of the biggest, don't use any of the big PBMs. Use these things called pass through PBMs that allow you to own your own claims, own your own data, get the lowest price, et cetera. So there are market solutions to get there, right?

[Host]

Is the original sin in this country tying health care to employers and making them responsible for it? And is that what we have to solve for?

[Mark Cuban]

No. The original sin is allowing these companies to become vertically integrated and enormous. And so like there's one big insurance company just for intercompany transfers. Each year it's about $161 billion. That's 0.3% of our GDP. They have gotten so large and so vertically integrated that they can game the entire system. You want your medical loss ratio to be where it needs to be? Well then push the cost to, you know, to the pbm. You want to increase your profits here. You know, you want to make your Medicare Advantage programs work, game the system this way. The big insurance companies think about this, right? We all have insurance or we're on our parents insurance at some point. But the insurance company defines a plan Right. And they set a premium and they set a deductible and a max out of pocket. The less you make, the more likely you're going to take a lower premium, higher deductible. But excluding the people on Medicaid, 40% of people can't afford a $400 bill, right. Or expense. Yet they're the ones choosing the 2,500, the $5,000 deductibles and the 9,000 out of pockets, which means for the insurance companies that they know that they can't afford to get the first level of care anywhere. They can't afford to go to the hospital. So the insurance company is just keeping the premiums. And even if you work for a company, let's say you work for a company here in LA and your net take home, you know, is 35, $40,000 and you have a 2,500 or $3,000 deductible and you're playing basketball and you go to dunk like Jason always does and breaks his leg, you're fucked. Yeah, you know you're not going. That's why my fingers are like this, right? Because, you know, you just can't afford to go to use your deductible. That's the problem of the system. And as long as we have these, these companies that are so vertically integrated and continue to buy more and more companies so that they can game the system even more and they control the patient flow and they control the flow of drugs.

[Host]

So this is an interesting reaction happening in the markets, which is self directed health care people are opting to affluent people, in some cases higher premiums and saying, you know what, I'll just do my own blood work with superpower or function. I'm gonna go, you know, take care of my own peptides or I'm gonna go to a compounding pharmacy. I'm gonna go to roe.com and I'm gonna get, you know, my whatever, you spend it too.

[Mark Cuban]

If you go to roes.com, let me just tell you, for my friends of my age, right, 90 tadilafil costs less than a bag of M&Ms. Tadilafil is generic Cialis, so we charge less than a bag of M&Ms. If you go to Rose or Himsa, those guys, you're getting ripped off.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Mark, let me ask you.

[Mark Cuban]

But the self directed, but the self directed.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Jason's gonna change his prescription.

[Host]

I'll change my prescription. Right on the self directed, right?

[Mark Cuban]

So on that point, right, so we're creating a company called Cost Plus Wellness that hasn't launched yet. It'll hopefully launch at the end of this month. And what we're doing is we're going out there for my companies, we're eating our own dog food, and we're setting up direct contracts with 8,000 providers at this point. And so it's based off of cash pay because those insurance companies not only rip off patients and deny care, et cetera, et cetera, they also underpay providers and all these other things, and they have to respond. And they underpay doctors too. And so. So what we're doing is we're going out there negotiating these cash prices with terms that will pay on a cash basis. But what's different about it, when we launch, we're going to publish all those contracts because there's absolutely no transparency whatsoever on the insurance side. Companies don't know what they're doing. They're permitted from having discussions with each other to compare notes. So we'll publish the contract just to.

[Host]

Wrap that point on cost+drugs.com, you're not gonna. This isn't gonna impact your economics personally in any way. You're doing this because, hey, maybe as the third act, you see this as a way to give back to someone.

[Mark Cuban]

I wanna fuck up healthcare. Who here thinks the financial side of healthcare is great? Nobody. It's a fucking mess.

[Host]

Right, so you're doing this to prove a point, to help people.

[Mark Cuban]

Cause it's fixable. Yes, right, it's fixable. But politicians gotta do what politicians do, right? Even with the president.

[David Sachs]

Have you gone to D.C. since President Trump? I know you were campaigning for Kamala Harris. Have you been to D.C. since the election?

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, one time.

[David Sachs]

You have? And how did it go? And our experience, maybe we're a little bit influential or whatever because of various relationships, but like, everyone we speak to, like, it's an open door policy. The administration is listening to everyone on all of these important issues. And we're hearing this from industry leaders from both sides, trying to get them to move.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. Is different. Right? Because the President and actually his MFN EO was great. Right? No knock on that whatsoever. The problem is, like, we literally went to manufacturers and we said, take the PBMs out. And if you take the PBMs out and sell to us at a higher price than what you're selling to the big PBMs. And just let us mark it up only our 15%, our price will be close to all the European countries that the MFM wants to compare to. Because you know what the difference between our countries and theirs, they don't have PBMs, right? So I went to CMS and told them we would do these things, right? Then we started talking to the manufacturers. Then the manufacturers backed off. And CMS knew they backed off. You know why they backed off? They were more afraid of the PBMs being removed from formularies than they were of Donald Trump. I even wrote a letter for them to give to the president explaining all that. Now, whether or not they ever gave it to them, I don't know, but. But it's crazy that they would rather piss off Donald Trump and make the EO not happen, because it's been a lot longer than 90 days and we haven't seen a single drug that falls under the MFM percentage.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Mark, you've had a lot of chapters in your life, very successful. But if you are able to crack this, it will obviously not just be a great service for people, but you will build an immense amount of social and political capital. And, you know, we mentioned this backstage, but some folks have whispered and said, you know, when we ask who is the leader of the Democratic Party, you know, and they say, they say it's Mark Cuban.

[David Sachs]

Eric Smallwell said this on our show.

[Mark Cuban]

That was a long time ago.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Mark, can you just transition and just talk about that? Which is, where is the Democratic Party? If you're able to get this done, how can you sort of reinvigorate that side of the.

[Mark Cuban]

I don't care about the Democratic Party. People think I'm a Democrat. I'm not.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I think you're a Democrat.

[Mark Cuban]

I'm not. If it were up to me, I'd kick both parties to the curb. I think both parties suck. Right.

[Host]

I'm with that. Moderates and independence, common sense.

[Mark Cuban]

Independence.

[Host]

So does that mean you're pro America party? If you were advising Ellen, would you tell him, stay out of the Republican Party. Just try to win some seats for common sense? And would you back him with the American?

[Mark Cuban]

Depends on, you know, the policies and who the politicians were. But yeah, I said I tweeted or posted. Yes, I'm wide open to that. We need to look at each individual, individual situation for its own merits. Right. I just don't care about either party. You know, both. Like, the Republican Party isn't the Republican Party anymore. It's the Trump family business. And the Democratic Party doesn't even exist anymore because, you know, they don't even know what they're doing and there's nobody in charge. Right. They both suck.

[David Sachs]

Do you get calls from Democratic Leadership saying, what should we do? Give us that. And what do you say?

[Mark Cuban]

Well, basically what I tell them is you have to learn how to sell. They have no idea how to sell. I'll give you a perfect example. Right. Right now with the enhanced ACA credits, subsidy credits are set to expire at the end of this year. Right. That when they expire for 12 and a half million people, these are the.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Obamacare health care credits.

[Mark Cuban]

Right? Right. For the aca. Right. And so when they expire, let's just take a family of five from the state of Texas, the great state of Texas, $125,000 in income, three kids. By the time you look at all their adjustable gross income and all that kind of stuff, their net federal tax rate is 3.3%. Their effective tax rate, 3.3%. That same family. Right. If they lose their. The enhanced credits because they're eligible for them, they. Their monthly payments will go from $880, give or take per month to about $2,300 a month. So that Delta, $1,500 a month, that's $18,000 a year.

[Host]

That's everything.

[Mark Cuban]

That's, you know, 20%. That's a 20% tax increase. Now, that's right in front of the Democrats to jump all over when it comes to, you know, all the stuff that's coming up. Right. Yet not a single word that this is the biggest increase in the history of tax increases ever. And so they're not cognizant of just the obvious things. And then the Republicans aren't cognizant of it either, because they've got to realize that you are about to screw over 12 and a half million people in a way they've never been screwed over before. You know, it's just right there, right in front of them, and nobody's paying attention to like. And we wonder, what do they say.

[David Sachs]

When you point this out to Democratic leadership that calls you? What's the response?

[Mark Cuban]

That's a good point.

[Host]

And it seems like they're leaning into this ban the billionaires social.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

And that's so stupid. I had that conversation the other day. 942 or however many people look, it's like the Mandami thing, right. They haven't learned from 10 years of Trump. Mandami is just Trump progressive version. Right. You just say what people want to hear. You want rent control?

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

I'll give you rent control. Right. You want free transportation?

[Tucker Carlson]

Got it.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. You want grocery stores paid for by the government? Done. That's Trump. 101, you know, and so they. He has figured it out.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

The rest of them have not.

[Interviewer/Producer]

I think this might be a good time to bring out our. Stay here, Mark. But I think we want to bring out.

[Host]

We want to introduce you to a friend of ours.

[David Sachs]

Let's just add one more bestie.

[Tucker Carlson]

Let's add a bestie. Give us a Tucker, Come on out.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Surprise bestie coming up.

[Tucker Carlson]

Tucker, Carl. And it's in.

[Mark Cuban]

I'll give you a hug.

[Tucker Carlson]

Thank you, gentlemen.

[Mark Cuban]

Grab a seat.

[Interviewer/Producer]

All right. I think you guys are on the couch next to each other.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah.

[David Sachs]

Come on.

[Interviewer/Producer]

But actually, this.

[Mark Cuban]

What? What, Mark.

[David Sachs]

The right and the left.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Mark raised an interesting question there, which is certainly curious to get your. Your take, Tucker, which is, where's the line of democracy, Tucker, between giving the people what they want, which is democracy versus what Mark seems to be saying, which is pandering to them or something, or offering something that.

[Tucker Carlson]

Where is the line? I mean, I can identify it. It'[e-mail].

[Mark Cuban]

No, it's true. It's true.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's happening. I was thinking backstage, like, this is one smart. Where do I meet my SSRI needs? Like, let's. I don't know, a palate of benzos? Costplusdrugs.com I would say that falls on the kind of radical democracy end of the spectrum, which I oppose. No, I mean, it's a balance, obviously, defending documents reflect the balance that the founders, for all their sort of overhyped genius, they really were geniuses, actually, and they thought deeply about this. And how do you not devolve into this, the ugliest form of democracy, which inevitably leads to tyranny, where you're just, like, taking payoffs and seeking affirmation from the mob and the oligarchy that is at the other extreme. And clearly, we're on sort of like or were up until Trump's election, sort of at one end where there's no demonstrable effort by the government to meet, like, the basic desires of the population doing just the opposite. There was never, like, any effort to pull people, like, hey, would you like 40 million new Americans? No one's for that in any country ever. And they just sort of gave it to you and shouted you down whether you wanted it or not. Hey, maybe we should. The real problem is the Houthis, okay? Oh, the Houthis, all right. As my father said to me growing up, just beware of the Houthis. Ancient, ancient enemy of our people. Like, what? And they would just sort of present these things or Putin is bad. You gotta hate Putin. Really. I don't really have strong feelings. Shut up, Russian tool or whatever this is. Even before I loved Putin, I was like, what are you even talking about? So in place of sort of the actual organic desires of the people, which are never that different from society to society, peace, prosperity, hope of a better future for your children, the promise of grandchildren, not just sterility in place of those, they manufacture these things you're supposed to want. So that's obviously, like, way on the other side of what we think of as just basic responsive government. Are we going too far otherwise? I don't know. We're not even a year in. But that is the tension.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Tucker, I want to get your reaction to what Mark said. Mark characterized Mamdani as Trump on the left. Like he's taken the Trump playbook and inverted it and applied it in a more, you know, with leftist rhetoric. Do you agree with that characterization? What. What is working in Mamdani and what is the same and different versus Well.

[Tucker Carlson]

I mean, I'm not an expert on Mamdani. I don't know him. I've tried to interview him a bunch of times because I think it'd be interesting. There's clearly something there. Right? It's. And it's not just about hating Israel or the foreign policy stuff. I don't. I refuse to believe that's the core of it. I think it's part of it, but I think the core of it is just economic frustration. And I think this is a marker for what we're going to see a whole lot more of which is economic populism. That's the actual next chapter that's going to scare the shit out of everyone in this room. And I get it. I'm not even calling for it. I'm just saying when your kids can't buy a house or even dream of buying a house, when they're buying doordash on credit, you're ripe for some kind of revolution. And the question is, is it a violent one, God forbid, or is it a kind of sincere Bernie Sanders? But either way, you're going to get some kind of massive reaction to that, because that is a core human need.

[Mark Cuban]

What's the impact of social media in all this? Because I think one thing that. Another thing that Madame and Trump have in common is they know how to make the algorithms work in their favor.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

You know, when Trump talks about they're eating cats and dogs, which I think.

[Tucker Carlson]

They were, by the way.

[Mark Cuban]

Well, maybe one person was right, but.

[Tucker Carlson]

It was certainly, okay, maybe one person.

[Mark Cuban]

So that's not a thing.

[Tucker Carlson]

One dog is too many. If that's not American, means anything. Yeah. If you could boil down the national creed to one statement, is no dog eating here.

[Mark Cuban]

What about cats?

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm agnostic on cats, but like, no dog.

[Host]

Yeah, cats are pricks.

[Tucker Carlson]

That's like a foundational principle.

[Host]

Well, no, but if it is about wages, if it is about affording a home, let's put the political parties aside. What's the path forward, Mark Tucker, of maybe letting the bottom third believe in America again? Should we raise the minimum wage? Do we need to have a Manhattan Project to do something as Easy as build 5 million homes? I mean, we live in the great state of Texas. They build homes like you wouldn't believe. And rents have gone down in Texas three years in a row. I mean, there are solutions to these problems. What should we solve for as a country, politics aside, if we had a top two or three things, what do we need to solve, Mark? And then, Tucker, same for you.

[Mark Cuban]

I think we've forgotten about entrepreneurs.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

You know, I think that's one of the challenges of the tariffs that we hear about. $500 billion investment, $600 billion investment, $2 trillion or whatever in aggregate investment. But we don't talk about the 10% effective or 15 or 20% effective tariffs and the impact on small businesses. And not just from the actual tariffs per se, but from the friction that they create for the companies trying to run their companies. Right. Like for my Shark Tank companies, it's put several out of business. And when you hear the president talk about them, I understand he's trying to work on a macro basis. That's what he's trying to do. That's fine. But for, you know, there's 33 million companies, 30 million of them are solopreneurs. You know, there's only 22,000 companies that have 500 or more employees. 60% of new jobs are created by small companies. I think they're being ignored. And to your point, if he's able to reduce friction in terms of zoning, in terms of anything else that makes it more difficult to run, whether it's using AI or whatever it may be, then I start, I think the American spirit takes over. Right. You guys are entrepreneurs. You're an entrepreneur. You know that, you know, the ideas are there. The people who want to implement those ideas are what makes this. You can go around the world. And they don't talk about the French dream, the, you know, the houthi dream. They talk about the American dream.

[Host]

By the way, over lunch, the French government collapsed.

[Mark Cuban]

I understand. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, yeah. But they talk about the American dream. That's what makes this country great. That's what makes this country different. And I think for a long time now we've forgotten about those entrepreneurs.

[Host]

Absolutely, I agree. Tucker, what do you got on the short list?

[Tucker Carlson]

I mean, I think housing is like the core of kind of everything, you know, where you live is like one of the central questions of your life. I don't think it's actually about housing. It's about autonomy. Actually. Both sides want to subvert it. The left is always talking about housing. The unhoused is if the core problem with homelessness is we don't have enough, like, you know, section 8 high density buildings or something. It's nothing to do with that. And the right talks about it like even to address the question is to sort of buy into the Mamdani program. You're a socialist or something? Yeah. And no, I think the material condition of your people is like a really big deal and you should focus on it. It doesn't make you a socialist at all. I am not a socialist, obviously. And then they go too far. Like I don't think, you know, building condos in Yellowstone either is the answer. We have way too many people in the country. So like the big, like the top line numbers really matter how many people live here? Well, we don't actually know the answer.

[Host]

Right.

[Tucker Carlson]

Trump told me directly he thought it was 50 million. He's the President of the United States. He doesn't know how many people whose identities we don't really know live here. Which is a little weird in a time of facial recognition. Like I have to have my nose scanned to get on an airplane. But like, we don't know who's here. I call bullshit, but whatever. We don't know. But we do know that, and you know from traveling that how many people a country has determines the nature of the country almost more than anything. Right? I mean, this kind of why, like the places you go on vacation are not densely populated. So we need to articulate just like the obvious supply and demand principles out loud.

[Mark Cuban]

Don't we have more fundamental issues than that, though?

[Tucker Carlson]

There's no more fundamental issue than who lives in your country.

[Mark Cuban]

Dude, there is. Right? Because if you want, if you want.

[Tucker Carlson]

The cost of prescription drugs.

[Mark Cuban]

No, but if you want the birth rates to go up, I may have.

[Tucker Carlson]

An answer to that.

[Mark Cuban]

Mark. Thank you. What was the name of the place costplusdrugs.com smart man.

[Tucker Carlson]

For your drug needs, I'm Cal Worthington.

[Mark Cuban]

Sorry, but if you can't afford to live here, you can't afford kids. Right?

[Tucker Carlson]

I get it.

[Mark Cuban]

If you can't afford health care.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Mark, let me ask you a question. What's your take on whether we should be sending money to Ukraine or not? Were you in favor of that?

[Tucker Carlson]

Man, they need it.

[Mark Cuban]

I mean, honestly, don't automate. I don't have a good answer. You know, I can make an argument both ways, and half my family is Ukrainian on my. From my grandparents. And so, you know, personally, I think we should help, but I don't have a studied answer for you.

[Tucker Carlson]

Have you. How much money have you sent to Ukraine?

[Mark Cuban]

None.

[Tucker Carlson]

Oh, so what do you mean by we? You're the one whose family's from Ukraine. Like, why don't you send them a billion dollars?

[Mark Cuban]

Because I'm trying to fix health care.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why don't you fix their health care? If you're, like, so deep, if you think we need to help, why don't you start? How about you first? I noticed that's never, like, even an option for anybody. It's like, we need to help. That's not what charity is. Forcing other people to help is not charity.

[Host]

The good news is all the weapons were on loan lease. We're getting it back. And our dear President Trump has negotiated that we own half the minerals. So he turned this horrible, tragic war into a profit center, which is one of his unique gifts, I think we can all agree.

[David Sachs]

Can I just follow up on the. Another alternative root cause, and I've harped on this a lot. Federal spending. Ultimately, if the federal deficit remains as it is, 6.5% of GDP, we're printing money. The Federal Reserve has to buy all the treasuries to fund the government. That money printing and all of those inefficient programs for lending, for housing, lending for student loans, spending on stuff that has no roi, et cetera, et cetera, ultimately leads to inflation and leads to everything becoming unaffordable. Is it not an option? And how much do you both care about or think about reining in the federal spending and having those kind of pointed conversations about the importance of this and.

[Host]

Go ahead, Tucker. You look like you.

[Tucker Carlson]

I mean, I think about it a lot. I think about the devaluation of the dollar. I think about it's just not worth as much. And I know that in my own. I'm not an investor. I don't invest in anything. But in the things that I buy with an eye to retaining value, they're physical things. They just don't believe in any of this at all. And so I caught myself the other day, and I'm at such a low sort of level compared to everyone else here. I'm not especially rich, but, like, I had a little bit of extra money and I'm like. It really was like the Weimar impulse. Like, I gotta buy something soon before I lose.

[David Sachs]

Before the dollar is worth less.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, I mean, everyone. Everyone I know, and I live in a very rural area and I. Most of my friends are crazy, but people I know are thinking in terms of like, land, gold, ammo. Like, I don't think that water. I don't think that's. No, I mean, are you really laughing? Are you tittering nervously? Because, you know, that's not insane.

[Mark Cuban]

So I own a shit ton of Bitcoin, first and foremost. Right. It kind of. Kind of a hedge. Have probably five years now. But we do need to cut costs, and I'm hoping AI is a path there. You know, government as a service, AI as a service, reducing the number of people it takes to get things done. Understanding that laws that were written in the 60s. This is kind of the abundance thing, right? Laws that were written in the 60s that are still in place don't apply now. It's kind of like the government version of the innovator's dilemma. We have to modify things that are in place already so we can start to optimize. And I think we haven't done that in a long, long time. And I don't think it's. We're in the process of changing that right now.

[Tucker Carlson]

But may I ask. I'm not against anything you said. I mean, I'm for technocratic solutions to moral problems too. But I wonder. Just kidding. I'm wondering what the aim is. It seems like with any project, like, you begin by articulating your goal, right? Which is like, one thing America is super bad at. So if you want to get to the moon, say so. And then if you don't get there, just fake it or whatever, like we did. But. But it begins with. Again, kidding. But it begins with saying what the goal is, like, what kind of system you want. No, but you never. I'm not attacking you at all. I do think you sent money to Ukraine. But I think it's. We're all at fault. It's all like, well, how can we do this more efficiently? Well, do what? Like, in the end, I want to live in a society where People live in single family homes, little lawns that they own that are not going to be taken away from them. Like actual property rights, not theoretical property. It's like my house, okay? I want married people and I want them to have children and grandchildren with the rough assurance the future of course being fundamentally unknown, but rough assurance that like it'll kind of be the same. Radical change all the time. Drives people insane.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but it's not radical change to do.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's not radical change. Dude, I grew up in this city. I don't recognize it. I'm only 56. That's radical change.

[Mark Cuban]

What you talking about Los Angeles?

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, like what is this?

[Mark Cuban]

Look, you can go in any, any decade, any generation.

[Tucker Carlson]

Rick Cruz says no, there's never been, there's never been population. Okay then I dare you then, because I know you're a historian. Give me another example. Other than the mass rape by the Mongols of population change, like what we've seen in the west over the past 50 years, you can't because there isn't one in all recorded history. So you can be for it or against it, but you can't say you're.

[Mark Cuban]

Just answering their own questions.

[Tucker Carlson]

That way I get to the right answer. I just answer my own questions. Yeah. This is a monologue posing as a colloquy.

[Host]

Let me, let me bring us to AI job displacement. It's been a big debate we've been having on the pod. We all know that AI is going to replace a large number of jobs.

[Mark Cuban]

Do we know that?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know.

[Host]

Well, any self driving car replaces four or five drivers full time positions. That's.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

But there could be different jobs.

[Host]

Well, okay, we're going to get to that. But for our guests. Do you think we're going to have a job displacement that could be acute. And how should we handle that? Because we're seeing people make optimus robots. The idea that any human's going to be in a factory sorting things. And all the factories we're making today are designed explicitly to not have humans in it. We may be talking about bringing back and on shoring factory jobs. That's not happening. All the new factories are going to be run by robots. We all know that they're lights out facilities. So what's the best worst case scenario here in terms of management?

[Tucker Carlson]

Can I give you the upside?

[Host]

Please.

[Tucker Carlson]

And everyone knows this, but like you know, the IBEW is fine. Like your electrician will still exist. We've got 1 million lawyers and a little fewer than 1 million lawyers in the United States. And a lot of them are just sol. And I think it's just so great to think of unemployed. No, I'm serious. So it's going to, I do think to some extent it's going to affect the worst, most entitled, most annoying classes of people. Okay, so that's an upside. I don't want to see any other working class people. You can displace farm workers. What are they going to do about it? You can displace factory workers who'll just kill themselves with drugs and fast food, which they have done. And you'll feel sort of guilty, but then ignore it. If you do that to lawyers and nonprofit sector employees who I lived around in D.C. you will get a revolution. And I mean that. I'm dead serious. Where did Paul Pot come from? I mean, there's never been a revolution that wasn't fomented by frustrated members of the sort of insurgent class. It's totally true, sub aristocrat. But the striving class, the most repulsive people there are, I think it's fair to say, but also the most intent on getting what they want. And if you put them out of business, I mean, I'm not joking at all.

[David Sachs]

I think we're seeing this already. And one could argue that the Mamdani election surge may be the result of young people coming out of colleges that were in that exact same situation, driving elite.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And they don't have.

[David Sachs]

And they were told that if they take on $400,000 of debt, they'll end up making a good living and progressing in life, buying a home. And all of that turned out to not be fucking true.

[Mark Cuban]

So I got two kids in college and what I tell them is if you were looking for a job at a big company, you're not going to get it. Because the big companies can implement what they need to do with AI in the short term. The small to middle sized companies need all the help they can get from AI natives, right? Because walking in and understanding AI and being able to implement for that company is a huge step forward to them. So I think that's one way where we will adjust. Number two, right? The tools you have as someone in college, there's no better time to be in college or just graduating than right now. Because you have more resources available to you in your phone than anybody in the history of everything, right? Because if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to do whatever it is, you have every expert that's right there available to you. And it's not going to go as far as you think in the short term, but in the long term, it comes down to robotics, because the electrical workers, if robotics do what robotics need to do, they're fucked, right? Because here's the disconnect right now that I think people don't understand. And AI on one hand, we're so used to the large language models, right? But those are all text driven. They don't know anything that's happening here. They can't acquire all this video, they can't adapt. There's a huge latency. And it's all text and all their IP is being siloed. Right. They're going to have to pay for it. So they all have their own specialties. A lawyer, large language. There'll be millions of large language models. Robotics, on the other hand, it's not even so much about self driving cars or what I use in the factories, Economy cost plus drugs. It's about in your house. It's about walking down the streets. It's about doing those things. So if you tell. You have to get to a point. We have to get to a point for it to be impactful, where you can say to a robot, clean the house. And they'll know not to touch Jason's socks. Right? And they'll know, Right. The whole idea is robots use video and they capture and they have to be able to process that video, which means understanding the laws of physics, which means.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah. Would you let a robot with a video camera in your house? Honestly?

[Mark Cuban]

Yes. Right. And beyond that, right?

[Tucker Carlson]

You're a self confident man, aren't you?

[Mark Cuban]

Right? Houses are going to be redesigned. Because right now when we design houses and we design robots, we design them to work for us. And the optimal robots aren't going to look anything like us at all.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Mark, we're running.

[Host]

Hold on, we're running out of time. Tucker segment, lightning round. Was Epstein a spy?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

No, no, no.

[Host]

Is Putin.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

We're gonna stay with Tucker now.

[Host]

We're gonna stay with Tucker for a little bit.

[David Sachs]

Yeah, we're gonna stick with Tucker.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, you'll do that? Okay, so we just want to think.

[Tucker Carlson]

We gave it away, man. Now I'm gonna prepare my answer.

[Host]

Let's thank Mark Cuban, everybody. Mark Cuban and Mark Cuban.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Tucker's gonna stay.

[Host]

Tucker's gonna stay for a little bit. Okay?

[Tucker Carlson]

Sorry.

[Host]

Great job, brother. Move over on Tucker. Okay? Tucker, now you get your own segment here, all right? So I need to get these answers, okay?

[Tucker Carlson]

Costplusdrugs.com yes.

[Host]

Was Epstein a spy? Is Putin a war criminal? And what Was Sachs, like, in college?

[Tucker Carlson]

Go. Was Epstein a spy? No. I mean, I don't think. I mean, I don't know. I do know a lot about the story. I don't think he was a conventional. He wasn't like an asset or something. He did a ton of work on behalf of intel agencies.

[Host]

He did work on behalf of intel, yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, no question. He was involved in Iran Contra. American, French, Israeli, probably British. I mean, you know, but. But there are a lot of. I know a million people, and so do you in that category. Yeah, there's most people who travel a lot.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tucker Carlson]

Now, a lot of people are doing that.

[Host]

War criminal.

[Tucker Carlson]

Let me define war criminal. A war criminal is anybody who kills the innocent. And that's what terrorism is. That's what a war crime is. That's the basis of Western justice, is that we punish the guilty. We punish people as individuals, not as groups, because we don't believe in, you know, in blood guilt. We don't believe in collective punishment. And so by that standard, you know, there are. Very few are innocent. I'm not being a relativist here. I'm just. But I think it's really important to define the term and just to say it again. A war crime and terrorism have this. Have the same root crime, which is punishing the innocent. Period. And if there's one thing that Western civilization exists to uphold, it's his sense of fairness and justice. And it's rooted in that. We punish the guilty. We do not punish the guilty's relatives. We don't punish people who look like the guilty from the same place as the guilty. We punish the individual because we believe that all people are fundamentally equal, not in their aptitude, but in their value, because they're all created by God. That is the West. The west, the West. We're fighting to uphold the Western value. No. What is it, then? That's what it is. And so to the extent you fall short of that, yes, you were a criminal, period.

[Host]

Now, most importantly, what was sax like in college?

[Tucker Carlson]

Take us back to totally fucking out of control. You know, I never. It's funny. People are always like, if you mix cocaine and ayahuasca, it's really hard to stand on the roof of a moving car. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Until you see someone do it. Absolutely.

[Host]

But more importantly, if you bang one.

[Tucker Carlson]

Of these, you don't want to hear more.

[Host]

Where are we at? Are you. No, we're going to get there. But I want to be on the same level as you. Are you Banging nines or threes right now.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't want to say on the grounds it'll make me seem impossibly cool, but nines.

[Host]

Here you go. You get a chilled. What do you got? What are you packing? I know you got some.

[Tucker Carlson]

I pack and I. I'm not allowed to make any medical claims though. These two are illness.

[Host]

I could just tell you these make you a God. But what do you got? Come on, Toss, you got to share.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's my version of cost plus drugs dot com.

[Host]

Oh, wow. Nectar.

[Tucker Carlson]

Nectar. Nines. Yes, I have one that puts me at 12.

[Host]

Let's go.

[Tucker Carlson]

I've used nicotine for 41 years.

[Host]

Come on, Sax, get on the level.

[David Sachs]

Is going to become so difficult this afternoon.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh man.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, it's crazy what they do, you know, the health benefits are insane. I never go to the doctor. I eat a lot of pizza, I never intentionally exercise. I'm 56 even open this and I feel great. And I mean that. And I mean you look great in the second.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Okay, I need to get this back on the rails. I need to get this back on the.

[Tucker Carlson]

Sorry. Okay.

[Host]

Back on the rails.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I would like to go around the world in the 11 minutes that we have and just get your reaction to a bunch of different things. Okay, let's start in Europe, UK and then just continental Europe. What has happened, I feel like all.

[Tucker Carlson]

Of those nations, the Anglosphere specifically, but Western Europe in general is poised for massive change. And I just hope it ends peacefully. But the story in the west is population change, period. That's the story. And following from that comes culture and political change. And it's always painful. I don't think it's always bad, personally, but at the scale it's happening, it's happened way too fast. And there will either be a true reaction of the kind that none of us want to see, or there will be full totalitarian clampdown.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

What was at the root of. For example, there was a post on X that said that Canada's population increased by 30% in like the last seven years.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, 35. 35, 35%.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

10 years in the UK when you.

[Tucker Carlson]

Know, you look simultaneous with government sponsored suicide where native Canadians are encouraged to kill themselves at government expense for non terminal illnesses up to and including economic distress. And that's sponsored by the government called the Maids program. It's the darkest thing that's happened since Europe in the 30s. We're instructed to ignore it. The government advertises it in conjunction with private businesses in Canada. And it's like it's one of those things where your grandkids, assuming you have them, are gonna ask you, like, what was that? And why didn't anybody say anything about it? I gave a speech in Canada recently and mentioned it. I started with it. Cause it's, like, so mesmerizingly horrifying. And people just, like, stared at me. Like, I don't think we're supposed to talk about that. It's like the brainwashing is so generational and crazy that they can't even notice when people are dying at the behest of the government. The behest, by the way.

[Host]

And to be clear, what we're talking about. Assisted suicide, end of life suicide. You can go in, you can set a date.

[Tucker Carlson]

Not for the terminally ill, for, like, the bummed out or veterans who don't have adequate housing. We'll kill you for free. And they are pushing that program. And thousands of people have died. And they. Of course, they don't release most of the numbers, but they did release numbers this summer that showed it's like 100% native Canadian. Yeah. Because people show up there from Gujarat. Why would I kill myself? This is awesome. Like, they have the spirit of life in them. And what is that? It's not just the government. I mean, there's something going on with Western populations that is suicidal, and they're participating in it.

[David Sachs]

You think that's related to fertility and birth rates?

[Tucker Carlson]

It's a. Fertility and birth rates. Their decline reflect the change that I'm describing, which is very obvious. I spent a lot of time in Europe for a bunch of reasons, and I have family there. And it's like, I was just there, and it's like, I can't even not believe this is happening. Why doesn't anybody say?

[David Sachs]

There was a survey that was just published today. I got to pull it up. But it surveyed 12 things, ranked them in order of importance. Men that voted for Trump. Number one was having children. Women that voted for Kamala, number 12 out of 12.

[Tucker Carlson]

And do you remember the percentage? This is women who voted for Kamaland. American women asked your priorities. What percentage said having children was an interest of theirs?

[David Sachs]

What was it?

[Tucker Carlson]

6%. Why? So that's suicide. That's. You're watching the end of something.

[David Sachs]

Why?

[Tucker Carlson]

That's people volunteering.

[David Sachs]

Is it a deep pessimism about society? Is it a deep depression that I can't progress in life? Where is it going on?

[Mark Cuban]

I think.

[Tucker Carlson]

I mean, yes, yes, yes, of course that's what it is, but I mean, that's without precedent, really. Even in the final years of the Soviet Union, there was no indication that it was that bad. But it is reflective of what a defeated empire does, like a defeated peoples. But I personally think there's something bigger going. Why is it happening in New Zealand? Why is it happening in Ireland? These are not colonial power. Ireland was never a colonial power. They were colonized. South Korea, Korea, which if you spend time in, by the way, a Korean friend of mine said to me, in 50 years there will be only North Korea.

[David Sachs]

Are these all just post industrial? Is that what they are? Versus rising industrial? I think it's happening in Africa. It's not happening in parts of South Asia. The opposite.

[Tucker Carlson]

You feel the life force when you.

[David Sachs]

Go to the fertility rates or birth rates in Africa, I think are like 6 to 7.

[Tucker Carlson]

But the global south more broadly, that is true. And Middle East. Yeah. I mean, there are lots of causes, but there's a spiritual root. I mean, the secular places are killing themselves and the religious places. It's not happening with Orthodox Jews in Borough Park.

[David Sachs]

Does the industrialization kill religion?

[Tucker Carlson]

The atom bomb kills religion. Hiroshima killed religion, killed the West. Because of course, you're God now. And every, every assumption we've made since August of 1945, 80 years ago, has been based on the core, often unstated belief that we're in full control of nature. There is.

[David Sachs]

It's also why we became so deeply techno pessimistic, I think.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, well, I think there's some evidence to support that pessimism.

[Host]

This is something that the Japanese people can kind of teach us from, because the last two times I was there, two different people said they weren't having kids. I asked why and they said it's immoral to bring children into a world of global climate change and that it would just be totally immoral because the temperatures are rising. And I was just like, are these people been hallucinating?

[Tucker Carlson]

Like, well, they don't even go through the steps required to have children in the first place.

[Host]

Right.

[Tucker Carlson]

So like any society where people have to be encouraged to have sex is a society that has decided to extinguish itself. Because that's like the most. That's like that. Honestly, that's like being Bobby Sands and starving yourself. Death. That's like you're at war with nature. You've decided my most basic impulses must be overridden in the service of what? Death. And so I, I've never been a super religious person. I'm certainly becoming one, that's for sure. At high speed. Just in reaction to watching what's happening. And I think it's the darkest thing that's happened in a thousand years. At least.

[Host]

We were talking about SSRIs earlier. What's your take on this medication of.

[Tucker Carlson]

Everybody with these antidepressants immediately SSRIs. I mean, don't get me going, but let me just say, and I say this I should say as a sober person who doesn't use deodorant and doesn't believe in any of that stuff. I don't take any pills ever. You don't have to be as crazy as I am to wonder, like, what does an SSRI do? Well, we've been taught falsely, that they correct acceptance. Chemical imbalance. Okay, if it's an imbalance, what's the baseline? There's no answer to that. What's the actual diagnosis of, say, bipolar disorder? Unknown. There is none.

[Host]

No.

[Tucker Carlson]

So on the basis of. That's not science at all. That's witchcraft.

[Host]

It's a questionnaire.

[Tucker Carlson]

But on the basis of it, they prescribe drugs which do not correct a chemical imbalance. They limit emotional range. And limiting emotional range is taking someone's soul. Emotional range is your soul. Like, that's what it is. You feel sad when someone dies. You feel joyful when something great happens. That's what it is to be alive. That's called the human experience. So, by the way, the effects of this unintended but very common effects include genital amnesia. You know what that is? That's when you feel nothing between your knees and your navel permanently. And there are tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, because one fifth of the entire American population is on SSRIs who feel nothing, who are permanently sexually disabled by these drugs? Now, are there people you know, or I know personally who were going to kill themselves and they got on an SRI and they didn't? That's a massive success. Thank God for that. There is no indication ever for prescribing an SSRI for 5 years, 10 years. Same with benzos, which are also prescribed. Same with amphetamines that we give to our children. The whole country is addled on drugs, and it's changing the nature of people and making them into something that is less than people. And it should be banned immediately.

[Host]

100% agree.

[Tucker Carlson]

I think it's crazy that it's happening.

[Host]

I mean, we're giving kids speed, we're.

[Tucker Carlson]

Giving them meth, and good people are doing it. People I know that I'm related to, who love their. Who would die for their children. Are told by doctors, air quotes, doctors who know nothing about the long term effects because they've never been studied to put their kids on meth. And they do because they love their children.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I want to, I want to make sure we, we get to a couple of other things. Tucker, just react to what happened this weekend in Charlotte on the train with the woman who was stabbed by.

[Tucker Carlson]

I think it's got to be a turning point. I mean, I, I think that the number one thing you don't want.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

How can there be just a coordinated suppression? How does that happen?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, that's, you know, this is how people wind up with really dark theories about what's happening. Because why would you suppress that if a young woman, by the way, Ukrainian. I Wish, I wish costplusdrugs.com was here so I could ask him. But like, if you really. Costplusdrugs.com I wish I could ask if you care about the Ukrainian people. One was just stabbed to death on a train for being white. Why doesn't anybody say it? Where all the, Where's Bill Kristol on this? Like, we love the Ukrainians. One just got stabbed in the neck on public transportation and no one cares. Like what? I don't, I don't have an answer to your question. I will say that the one thing you have to worry about in a multi ethnic society is ethnic conflict because it's enduring. It doesn't go away. It's generational and we are moving toward that. She was stabbed because she was white. And everyone knows that, actually. And knowing that and not being able to say anything about it because you fear you're going to be called names doesn't make the problem go away. It makes you move to Bozeman and it makes the problem worse. And that's what you're seeing. Everyone I know who can afford it is moving to Bozeman or Jackson or Sun Valley or whatever. But they all have one thing in common. Okay, let's just stop lying. And I don't like that. Okay. Because that suggests a future of ethnic conflict, which is like, ask anybody from a country that has, ask a Belgian, Belgium, has ethnic conflict. So this is inherent to the human condition and you want to be very thoughtful in trying to avoid it. And things like that exacerbate it like to a crazy, crazy animal level that.

[David Sachs]

Tucker, let me just ask, do you. Three parts to this, but short. Do you believe that there is rising antisemitism in the west? And why do people say that you are contributing to it? Why has that become.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I think there's rising anti Semitism on the left and right. There's definitely rising anti Semitism, for sure. And I hate it. You don't have to believe me.

[David Sachs]

You hate it on the record, right?

[Tucker Carlson]

Of course I hate it.

[David Sachs]

Yeah. Because there's a lot of social media, a lot of this coordinated effort from large industry groups saying Tucker Carlson is an anti Semite. Why is that the case?

[Tucker Carlson]

Attacking my children over it? Yeah, I'm aware.

[David Sachs]

Yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

And I actually called an Israeli official who I know, I know a bunch of them, including the prime Minister, and said, why are you doing this to me? If you think I'm your enemy, man, you're. You're really out to lunch. And they're totally out to lunch. And they. I've never seen anybody mismanage anything. The way the government of Israel is mismanaging the response to what's happening in Gaza and the west bank and the way to. The way to. And it's not my country, but I'm just noticing that this is really bad for everybody. Two things. One, you have to be willing. If I stand up and say, you know, I'm an American, my family's been here for 300 years, 400 years, and I love this country, but my government's done a lot of horrible things. No one's like, you hate America. If you're like, I love Israel and I like Israel, I'm a frequent visitor to Israel, but this is not good. Shut up. That's not helpful at all. Like, you turn your allies into enemies by acting that way. A, B, conflating a nation state with an ethnic group is not a long term strategy. It's not wise because you are tied to the temporal politics, the politics of the moment. Like Bibi's political. I don't hate Bibi, but his political fortunes, individual political fortunes, play a role in his calculation, in everything that he does. True, with all politicians, you want to tie an entire group to that. I don't think that's very smart. You can say, I really like Israel, I love Israel, I have family in Israel, whatever you think about Israel. But like, I don't think this is a good idea or I'm offended by it or whatever. If you eliminate the distinction between a political organization, which is a synonym for government, and an ethnic group, boy, you're going to hurt that ethnic group. And that's exactly what's happened. It's. It's so bad and it freaks me out. And I will say once again that my views on Israel apply to the United States, they apply to Senegal, they apply to Malaysia.

[David Sachs]

They apply to people, but not to the Jewish people.

[Tucker Carlson]

Come on, dude. No, Right? And I'm not even. I don't even fight back against it because I'm like, that's so low. I'm not playing your fucking game, okay? What? My view is really simple. I don't think that it is allowable. It is the most immoral thing to punish the innocent. The United States government has punished the innocent a lot. They did during COVID I yelled about it every night on Fox News. All governments do this because all leaders get carried away with hubris and they treat people like numbers or enemies or non human beings and they kill them. I'm opposed to that. You should be. We're all opposed to that, by the way. I'm opposed. When it happens in Gaza, I'm opposed. When it happens in Texas, I'm opposed. I'm just opposed. And all of a sudden we've reached this place where people are so overwrought and defensive. I came out and said something about, you know, I don't know, I'm glad we beat Imperial Japan. I'm kind of sad that we incinerated all those people with the atom bomb. Ben Shapiro did a whole segment about how I was like a quisling or something. You hate America. No, I love America. That's why I don't ever want anybody to kill people who didn't do anything wrong. That is the basis of justice. We punish the guilty. We can argue about to what degree they should be punished. Should it be Norway where they get high speed Internet and massages? Or should it be. You know what I mean, Malawi, where they rot in a cave.

[Host]

But why are we not allowed.

[Tucker Carlson]

We don't punish the innocent, and that includes children.

[Host]

All children, Tucker. Why are we not allowed to say. We are absolutely saddened at the tragedy that happened on October 7th, and we're absolutely appalled at watching people starve and innocents being killed in Gaza and not being able to get them aid. Why can't you say both things to not be criticized?

[Tucker Carlson]

You should be. And I've decided that I'm old enough and I know God now. I sound like such a fraud. I know my heart. But like, I. You can feel the hate coming off people or whatever. I would hear Obama talks, and I always really liked Obama before he became a senator, but I would hear him talk and be like, wow, that's animated by hate. And it would be in this. This is your captain speaking voice. But it didn't matter. I was like my dogs. Like, I could feel what was in him. And I feel very confident in my views. I like people and I just feel that way. And I'm not going to play the game where I have to be like, oh, actually my wife is part Jewish or whatever. I don't play. I'm not going to do that. I think we should stand on principle. Don't punish the innocent. I don't care who you are. No one has a special dispensation that allows him or his country to punish the innocent. And if you do, I'm gonna call you on it.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Producer]

And let me just back up, in lieu of a final question, I just wanna back up Tucker on this, that the basis of conservatism is not believing that any government is sacred.

[Tucker Carlson]

Thank you, David Sachs.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Every government should be subject to criticism because we know that they will always abuse their authority. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. All governments must be subject to criticism. And government shouldn't seek to make themselves immune by essentially calling people names. And, you know, I've known Tucker for 30 years. He doesn't have an anti Semic bone in his body. And it really pisses me off the way that he gets attacked for criticizing the conduct of a government.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm not even that critical, by the way. That's the hilarious thing. I'm not even that critical. Like, I have been around as we wrap here. People do shitty things and I'm not like, I think.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I think, for what it's worth, you're an American treasure and I appreciate that.

[Tucker Carlson]

You.

[Host]

Yeah. And Sax, as we wrap here, tell us about the meet cute moment when you met Tucker and you fell in love with Tucker.

[Tucker Carlson]

You love Tucker. Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Meet cute.

[Host]

Give us the meet cute. You come around a cubicle. What happens? You see he's got the bow tie.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You guys lock eyes. How did it.

[Host]

Yeah. What happened?

[Tucker Carlson]

It was at lunch in Union Station in Washington dc. I'll never forget.

[Host]

Tell us, Sachs, your earliest memory of Tucker.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Camaraderie born of some common views.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So, yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

And can I say one thing about David? David was saying, I don't even get into it, but he was saying things that now would be considered. Well, of course, but at the time were like, pretty brave. I thought he had written a book and I was. And we had a mutual childhood friend. And I was like, super impressed because he was saying things that the people around him would be like, you don't need to say that. Why are you doing that? And he was just totally principled, completely principled. And you just don't meet that many people like that.

[Host]

You have a straight shot to the presidency. Are you going to take it.

[Tucker Carlson]

You, Tucker Carlson, to being president?

[Host]

You have your fans want it. They want you to run. You have the audience, you have the skill, you have the intellect. Would you consider public service?

[Tucker Carlson]

Not even for a second. But if I did, I would be like, John F. Kennedy was very moderate, actually, on almost everything. They killed him anyway. So, like, I'd make it about 10 minutes.

[Host]

Self preservation is a strong driver.

[Tucker Carlson]

I get the Jack Ruby kind of cancer. Who knows where he got it, you know?

[Host]

Ladies and gentlemen, Tucker Carlson.

[David Sachs]

Tucker Carlson, Woo.

[Tucker Carlson]

Thank you, David.

[Host]

You're crushing it, brother.

[Mark Cuban]

Thank you.