← All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
OpenAI's Identity Crisis, Datacenter Wars, Market Up on Iran News, Mamdani's First Tax, Swalwell Out
01:30:57
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- [00:00]
Jason Calacanis
All right, everybody, welcome back to the number one podcast in the world. We've got the Core four here and
- [00:08]
Chamath Palihapitiya
dare I say, the king of atoms.
- [00:10]
Jason Calacanis
The king of atoms. Yes, Captain Travis Kalanick is here. How are you doing, brother?
- [00:17]
Travis Kalanick
I'm pretty good, Pretty good. I'm sitting here doing the podcast just next door to David.
- [00:23]
Jason Calacanis
Ah, yes, there you go.
- [00:24]
David Sacks
Don't reveal our locations.
- [00:26]
Jason Calacanis
Please don't.
- [00:26]
Travis Kalanick
Doc, I didn't put my address out there, dude.
- [00:29]
David Sacks
No, that's true.
- [00:29]
Jason Calacanis
Don't worry, Mandami did. He's outside your houses right now asking them to foreclose.
- [00:35]
David Sacks
3.9% or something.
- [00:37]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, they decided there's rich people left in New York.
- [00:40]
Chamath Palihapitiya
So he's looking for, is it 3.9% a year, is it per year or is it.
- [00:46]
David Sacks
I don't know if the percentage has been released yet, but the speculation I've seen is 3.9%, but I don't think that's final. But yeah, it's a piata tax. So if you have a second home. Yeah, every year.
- [00:56]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Wow.
- [00:57]
Jason Calacanis
And by the way, it's for any home over 5 million. There's no homes under 5 million in Manhattan. This is not a rich person tax. This is within 15 miles of Midtown Manhattan. You're paying an extra tax, but only.
- [01:13]
David Sacks
But jcal. Only if it's a piata terrorist. So what it means is that the most second homes. Well, yeah, but the most elastic part of the market is what they're targeting for this tax. So in other words, people who don't live in New York who just have it as a second or third home, who could buy that property anywhere, are now being taxed the most. So what do you think that's gonna do? It's gonna have a massive impact on demand for second homes in New York, which will crash the whole market.
- [01:39]
Jason Calacanis
Yes, congratulations, mon. Dummy.
- [01:41]
Chamath Palihapitiya
But in a weird way, that'll be good for housing affordability in New York.
- [01:45]
David Sacks
Well, that. That's sort of the claim, but I don't think it'll be good for it because there'll be no incentive to build more.
- [01:51]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, all units matter. Every time you add units, people upgrade. And it's not like these are going to be low income housing like penthouse on 57th street or, you know, in Gramercy. That's not low income housing. You'd have to break it into seven units. Makes no sense. But by the way, I don't know if you guys saw the video, not to get too serious, but he's doxxing a certain billionaire who owns A certain place. And he's literally pointing at his home.
- [02:16]
Chamath Palihapitiya
No, I said that to you, Jason. He's not doxxing. Because everybody's known for years that Ken Griffin bought that place. Everybody knows that address. Everybody knows that unit. We all knew it. It was marketed widely. I don't think that's really doxxing. He doesn't live there and everybody knew he owned it. It would be very different if it was a place where somebody was keeping their primary residence and you didn't know and they stood in front of the house. That I would agree with you. I think this one is a little bit more tenuous.
- [02:40]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, fair enough. But what I will tell you is it's a dog whistle. Crazy people. And this thing's been seen by 30, 40, 50 million people now. It's a dog whistle to say, that's true. That's the next UnitedHealthcare CEO. And in the week that a fire, a Molotov cocktail and a bullet gets shot into Sam Altman's house, it's deadly serious. And if you reversed it? I always reverse it. What if a Republican sat outside of Bernie Sanders second or third home and said, we should. This is his piano, Terre. This is his summer home. We should add taxes to it. And I'm sure you could look up Bernie Sanders home pretty easily. So just before you point at people's homes and say, this is the villain, be careful, folks, because then if something does happen to that person, like what happened to Sam Waltman this week, you can feel however you want about him, but nobody deserves to have their house fire bombed or shot at, period, full stop.
- [03:35]
David Sacks
I just think that it's going to kill the demand for maybe people who already have a home in New York, like Ken Griffin. They probably are just going to suck it up and pay the tax and keep whatever they have. But if you were a person who was thinking about buying a piada terre in New York, there's no way you would do it now, because you don't know what the tax rate's going to be. And it's going to keep going up.
- [03:58]
Chamath Palihapitiya
After a decade with interest and inflation, you've effectively almost doubled the price of your unit. So if you're going to buy a $10 million unit, you're probably then looking at a $20 million purchase price just to break even after about 10 or 11 years. That's crazy. The math doesn't work anymore.
- [04:15]
Jason Calacanis
What is the downstream effect of these individuals? Not coming to New York, going to a Knicks game, nothing. Going to a restaurant no, they spend money. They spend money in New York.
- [04:24]
Chamath Palihapitiya
They have their birthday party, they do
- [04:26]
Jason Calacanis
all kinds of things.
- [04:27]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I'm not a big fan of the pied a terre culture. I own one house. I don' this whole multiple houses, you flitter flattering everywhere. It ruined London. Because when you look at London, where do you vacation?
- [04:37]
Travis Kalanick
Chamath, where do you vacation?
- [04:39]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I go to a hotel.
- [04:40]
Travis Kalanick
Okay. So my point is this, that I think the way that it works is it's not just pied a terre. If you own a home that you fully rent out, but that is not the primary residence of the person who is renting it, it's also a problem. So this is any even like a, like a, you know, you had a two week rental or a one week rental or a 30 day rental or even a five year rental and it was somebody else's second home. The owner still gets, gets hit. So the rental, the sort of rentals of like folks who want to come to that city or who don't want to own in that city. But it's a second place. The second place thing goes away. So maybe this is just good for hotels.
- [05:27]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I think it's good for hotels. But if you look at London, it's probably the best example where there was a lot of people who used London as a place to store assets. Real estate became the primary way in which they would do that. It hollowed out parts of London where it's not as if it was unlivable, it's just that it was unlived. Nobody was there. You drive around Chelsea, you drive around certain parts of London and it was like a ghost town on like a Thursday night or a Friday night.
- [05:55]
Jason Calacanis
That is an issue is the land banking. It's like your bitcoin is hollowing out a neighborhood and there is something there. But you know what? The whole housing thing is complete cap and utter bullshit. Because if you move to a place like Austin, where you are in Nevada or Florida, you see what happens when you allow people to build units in Austin three years in a row, rents and housing prices have gone down while net migration has gone up.
- [06:23]
Chamath Palihapitiya
But that's been good, right, for Austin, you guys would say, and that's incredible.
- [06:27]
David Sacks
Yeah, amazing. Austin has like roughly doubled as a city over the past decade and yet the rent for, you know, whatever, a one or two bedroom apartment's gone down.
- [06:36]
Chamath Palihapitiya
That's incredible.
- [06:37]
David Sacks
So in other words, if you let people build to satisfy the demand, you won't have this problem.
- [06:43]
Jason Calacanis
And then who's stopping the building? It's Democratic cities, it's NIMBY people. And then in a Republican town they're actually building units for an affordability. So you have one group saying they care about affordability and they're doing nothing about it and they're stopping it. And in another place they're like, we're just going to let you build because it's your right to build because it's your land. That's the approach in Texas. It's your land, you have the right to develop it. Go.
- [07:09]
Chamath Palihapitiya
By the way, the high end of the market in London has basically turned over and collapsed Sachs to your point, like they introduced the stamp tax, which I think is equivalent to this tax that the New York City mayor is proposing. And if you look at London as a guide, the real estate market just bid it at the high end and
- [07:26]
David Sacks
that's probably that's going to be good for that city or even the UK as a whole. There's a handful of cities where people do what you say, which is kind of park money there. The reason why they do that is because they believe that, that that city A has the rule of law and B is unique world class city that's going to keep appreciating. And if you have new management that doesn't really believe in the rule of law, that basically keeps imposing all these arbitrary taxes, that money is going to flee and find other kinds of investments. People aren't going to park their money there. That has to be a bad thing for the city. It's like who cares if the top floor of that building where Ken Griffin lives is owned by one guy who isn't there that much? It's not going to affect the city that much. But having all these billionaires from all over the world decide to park money in that American city has to be good for the US just like it's good for the uk. And if you give that up, then again the money will just go somewhere else.
- [08:19]
Travis Kalanick
Well, to your point is they're already paying taxes on the property and because they're not there very often, they're not using city services. So they're paying taxes on the property, they're not using city services, they're profitable to the city.
- [08:35]
David Sacks
Yeah. Think about a developer who's underwriting some new project. You know, the fact that a whale like Ken Griffin is willing to overpay in the sense of price per foot for that top floor might make that whole project pencil. And this is what contributes to the vitality of New York is there's constantly development going on there's constantly cranes. And so you take out that part of the market that in effect was price insensitive and was subsidizing all these projects. And I think development's going to dry up to a large degree.
- [09:09]
Jason Calacanis
He must be paying 3 or 4 million in taxes every year and getting no services. To your point Travis, Good point. All profit for the same.
- [09:16]
Chamath Palihapitiya
London also did something else which is that they essentially crippled what's called non dom status, which is the big tax arb if you moving or parking assets in London. And to your point Sachs, what did all the rich people do? They just redirected themselves to Zurich, to Lugano, to Milan and they took advantage of more hospitable tax policy in other places. Now what the people in Britain would tell you, I actually met with the UK government yesterday. They don't see a meaningfully enough measurable impact yet where they think it's a five alarm fire. So the real question is, is it more of a slow bleed and a slow melt and at some point it's just hollowed out and it's very hard to reverse because there's not going to be a cataclysmic acute moment where people say oh my God, we need to reverse these policies. It doesn't seem like that's in the offing.
- [10:02]
David Sacks
You know, Louisiana did something a little different but similar as they introduced that 5% mansion tax is on like all the areas except for like Beverly Hills
- [10:11]
David Friedberg
and San Francisco has that too.
- [10:13]
David Sacks
Yeah, San Francisco got that too. I think it's actually like 6% in San Francisco.
- [10:16]
David Friedberg
San Francisco, it's 6% over 25 million and it starts at 5 million. So there's a transfer tax, an excess transfer tax above $5 million, properties that scales up above 25 million to an extra 6% on top of your brokerage commission. So when you sell a house in San Francisco, you're paying 13% now, which
- [10:37]
David Sacks
is why you look at the transaction volume in the LA real estate market and it's just completely dried up. You know, people aren't doing the house flipping anymore like that kind of stuff because the transaction costs are too high. But it just shows. I mean again, this tax was imposed retroactively. For example, I had my house in SF and then they just take a couple of rooms of it. And we talked about this on the show when it happened. But my point is just your property is not safe in blue states. And wealthy people who have a choice of where to park their money are going to increasingly realize that and they're not going to buy. I think real estate in blue states is dangerous because the political class thinks that they can take a chunk of it and wealthy people are going to react to that and they're going to move their money elsewhere.
- [11:24]
Jason Calacanis
All right, let's go to topic number one. OpenAI is apparently suffering from a bit of an identity Crisis. On Sunday, OpenAI's chief revenue officer Denise Dresser sent a four page memo to employees. Obviously it leaked immediately, probably the point of it. And she called out Entropic. She said their $30 billion run rate is cap inflated by 8 billion due to a revenue share in some accounting with AI model providers. Chamath, you pointed that out in the last couple of weeks. Also she said anthropic stories built on, quote, fear restriction and the idea that a small group of elites should control AI. Obviously she's a fan of the pod. She also laid out OpenAI's pivoting and she said they are going hard after business customers and they want to win the agent platform layer. If you remember, they hired the architect of the open source project, OpenClaw. They didn't acquire OpenClaw. So Peter Steinberger is working at OpenAI. Cynical people said, hey, maybe they want his next set of innovations to go inside of OpenAI's products as opposed to the open source one. I kind of agree with that directionally. There's obviously Perplexity Computer is doing really well. They quadrupled their revenue. And I was over at XAI earlier this week with Elon and I can tell you he's got some very cool stuff coming. And this new model Spud is coming from OpenAI. Here's your polymarket. 75% chance spud is released next week. Additionally, and we'll go to the panel in just a second on Tuesday, two days after this memo came out. Obviously people write these memos to go directly to the press. So they're obviously trying to undercut Anthropic's valuation and they feel that's a threat. That's my take. The FT cited anonymous OpenAI investors who are frustrated with the company's lack of focus. Here's the anonymous quote, quote, you have ChatGPT, a 1 billion user business growing 50 to 100% a year. What are you doing talking about enterprise and code? It's a deeply unfocused company and we Talked about this. ChatGPT's market share is going down as the number of users is going up because Gemini and Claude gaining significantly. And Meta just last week released their first proprietary model and Apple doesn't have a product in market yet, but they do have a lot of users. So here's your Gen AI website traffic. Let's start chamath with you. Your thoughts on OpenAI. Should they be pivoting straight into business developers and getting focused on that or should they stay focused on the consumer where they are?
- [14:02]
Chamath Palihapitiya
The verb as it relates to complex long horizon coding tasks. What I can tell you from my team at 8090 is Codex is better generally than anthropic. And so what happens is for the more day to day work I think it's more reliable to use the Claude ensemble of models. But when you're dealing with something that's very tricky and very complicated and a little bit more long horizon, Codex is really functional and really good. So I think if you're looking at it through the lens of OpenAI, what they're probably saying is hey, hold on a second, if we allocate our resources and just double down and crush consumer, that's probably 3 or 4 trillion of enterprise value and then if we slowly refocus the company with the rest of the resources and double down on Codex and do something meaningful in enterprise, we can probably capture 2 or 3 trillion there. And now all of a sudden you can paint a picture for a $7,89 trillion market cap in the fullness of time. Not tomorrow obviously, but Codex is really good and there is a business to be had in both. You have to separate the two businesses. You can't have a lot of overlap because there's too much context switching. You got to let the consumer team run and then you got to isolate the enterprise team and let them do what they think is right.
- [15:23]
Jason Calacanis
Travis, there's a big debate going on amongst the investors. The FT piece also questioned the $850 billion valuation of OpenAI. Secondary markets have now priced Anthropic higher than OpenAI for the first time. This is the flippening that people predicted. One investor said OpenAI would need to IPO at a valuation of 1.2 trillion for the last round to make any sense. But there's no buyers currently at the $850 billion valuation that OpenAI just closed, according to Bloomberg. Travis, how do you handicap this race between these two leading frontier models?
- [16:02]
Travis Kalanick
Growth is king right now in this world. In this segment, growth is the whole damn thing. And if anthropic is growing faster than OpenAI by a significant clip, the investors right now are going to play it forward and you start to get network effects around, compute network effects around the number of tokens you're pushing out for various customers, enterprise or consumer. And ultimately it's not great today, but how that plays into reinforcement learning and the things getting smarter over time. There's so much upside to volume and scale that if they are growing faster at the same size, even if OpenAI is still growing, but if they are half the growth rate, a third the growth rate, a fifth the growth rate, I would be, I'd be worried.
- [16:58]
Jason Calacanis
And you saw this at Uber specifically when you accelerated away from the competitors like Lyft and DoorDash. Yeah, yeah.
- [17:05]
Travis Kalanick
You had to. Network effects was the whole thing at the end of the day. And network effects was based on scale. So yes, I'm sort of like coming from my very specific experience. But if you believe there's network effects with the scale of data that you have and the scale of customers and the revenue, that's this cache that's coming in that you redeploy into compute and so say there's network effects of large compute. I'd be very worried if I'm OpenAI and seeing somebody growing faster at the same size.
- [17:37]
Jason Calacanis
So Freeberg, when you look at this race between these two giants, maybe your thoughts on the flywheel as it relates, as Travis is pointing out, to advantages in computer reinforcement learning and then also the ability to fundraise. One of the great things that Travis and the team did was as they were pulling away, they just sucked all the oxygen out of the room by using capital as a weapon. So your thoughts, Dave, on this high stakes game. There's also a point at which, and I'll just end on this, There's a point at which you could run off the cliff. You raise so much money and you deploy it so fast and the revenue doesn't catch up to it and then you go public and the markets don't believe the story. So your thoughts? Rebirth.
- [18:18]
David Friedberg
I don't know the financials of the two companies well enough. Obviously Sam has no problem raising money. The guy. Didn't he just close like $150 billion round or something?
- [18:26]
Chamath Palihapitiya
20122 billion.
- [18:28]
David Friedberg
122 billion.
- [18:29]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Largest round ever raised in any market. I think private or public.
- [18:32]
Travis Kalanick
Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean that's crazy.
- [18:35]
David Friedberg
That doesn't seem to be an issue. What I've noticed is just the pace of innovation at Anthropic is from my experience, unprecedented. I mean there are release cadence is extraordinary. They've basically supplanted openclaw already with this release they did a few days ago. And then today the New opus model got dropped. So there's something about the momentum, not necessarily just in user growth, but in how they're operating this business that just seems to be head and shoulders above everyone else in the cadence of upgrades. If I look back six months ago, I think we were pretty heavy on Cursor and Gemini and now I think we're probably 90% anthropic in just the last six months at my organization. There's something very powerful about the flywheel they have going on.
- [19:23]
Travis Kalanick
Yeah, but here's where I go just real quick, Dave is mad respect on 120 or $130 billion raise. I mean this is obviously next level, but you can use capital and investment to acquire scale and network effects associated with it. But if somebody is getting that scale with revenue and let's call it contribution margin, contribution profit efficiency will outstrip subsidy and you can't just keep raising $100 billion things forever. That's where the train will stop. And if Anthropic is funding theirs through revenue and other folks are funding it through investment, there's like a short term, that's a short term solve. But the long run is whoever is scaling their actual usage and system and ultimately with contribution profit, that then soaks up the need for investment. That's a very scary machine if you're
- [20:29]
Jason Calacanis
competing against it, which is exactly Sachs, what the legacy Max 7 are doing, you have massive profits from Meta's core business, Google's core business that are being redeployed into infrastructure and even Tesla which has a lot of profits in SpaceX, which has a lot of cash on hand and they're building out Colossus and other assets, including Elon is working on building a fab as folks have been talking about. So Sachs, is there a chance for the legacy companies, the Mag 7s to compete in this? Or are we looking at OpenAI and Anthropic are 1 and 2 and then everybody else can fight for third place and the bronze as it were.
- [21:14]
David Sacks
Well, I think Google's clearly in the mix. I mean DeepMind has an outstanding team and I think Elon's still in the mix with Xai. And then you've got Meta also has the resources and they're seem to be further behind, but they're going to compete. Look, let me just go back to the central premise here. I agree that there's some valid criticism that OpenAI has been unfocused and should be moving forward more focused in what they do. I have no idea, for example, what they're doing buying a podcast. That's not us. So I don't know what that was about. If you were going to buy a tech podcast for a few hundred million dollars, I mean, we were here, we're
- [21:58]
Jason Calacanis
here, we're here for it. Dario, reach out.
- [22:01]
Travis Kalanick
Small potatoes for you guys, though. Small potatoes. They couldn't afford you. They can't afford you guys.
- [22:06]
David Sacks
Yeah, they thought we were too expensive. Little do they know we would have sold out, but.
- [22:12]
Jason Calacanis
Punch the ticket, Dario.
- [22:15]
David Sacks
But look, this other part of the criticism of OpenAI that they shouldn't do enterprise is totally misguided. One of the reasons why they should have been more focused is to do more enterprise and get enterprise more correct. Now, why do I say that? To Travis's point about growth rates, it's true that OpenAI and Anthropic, as of the beginning of Q2, so let's say two weeks ago, they were both around 30 billion of revenue. And that memo from that OpenAI employee was right that if you compare them on apples to apples basis, that anthropic is about 20% less because they are including revenue made by their channel partners. But that doesn't matter. What matters is the growth rate. Again, to Travis's point, and let me just put some numbers around this. The OpenAI growth rate's been around 3 to 4x a year. The anthropic growth rate has been around 10x a year. So they went from let's call it 1 to 10 billion of ARR last year, and by the end of Q1 this year, they were already at 30 billion of again, that's called their revenue. And they're on their way. Like Brad Gerstner was saying on our podcast, I think in the last couple of weeks, they're going to end this year at 80 to 100 billion, at least on the current trajectory. And so you can plot their revenue on a logarithmic graph. I mean, again, no one's ever seen anything like before, where every unit on the y axis is 10x and it's a straight line. Now, it's crazy, right? So if it's taking anthropic, let's say 1 year to 10x and it's taking OpenAI 2 years to achieve a 10x, then it's obvious which one's gonna win. Now, what is the reason for this? It's because Anthropic was very focused on enterprise, specifically coding. And what you're seeing is that businesses are willing to pay for coding code tokens on a metered basis. Let's Call it like electricity. The more they use, the more they're willing to pay and their usage just continues to scale and scale. Consumer is completely different. I mean, consumer is a thing that OpenAI prioritized. Consumers have a lower willingness to pay. Maybe only 3 or 4% of them are willing to convert to premium in the first place. And what they want is A$20 a month all you can eat subscription. So the revenue simply doesn't scale the same way that enterprise does. And so if you want to tap into the scalable revenue source in the market right now, you have to go after enterprise. So, you know, again, where I would agree with the criticism of OpenAI is maybe they should have been more focused, but they need to be more focused specifically to pursue coding and enterprise. And if they don't catch up soon, to Travis's point, then you could see Anthropic taking a lead here that, let's say over the next one or two years could be insurmountable. Just by the way, let me just say, say one thing is even though Anthropic's revenue has followed this graph, this exponential graph, very predictably, it can't do that forever, right? Let's say it does get to 80 to 100 billion this year. Can it really get to a trillion dollars in revenue the year after? That seems hard to believe, right? And the reason is because as you hit new levels of scale, you encounter new problems. I mean, you're simply going to run out of compute or electricity, data centers, infrastructure. There are physical limits or there's limits in the physical world that you're going to hit. And there's already some evidence that Anthropic is hitting some of those limits. Users were complaining, for example, that Claude was thinking less. Did you guys see this? That, you know, a typical CLAUDE prompt, they seem to have cut down on the thinking time by about two thirds now. I saw someone tweeting today that they just released Opus 4.7 replacing Opus 4.6, and the thinking is back. But maybe they're charging more for that. Hard to say, but they're going to hit some sort of physical limits. And I do wonder if over the next year Anthropic will reconsider whether its support for all this Doomer nimbyism was the right call because it kind of made sense for them from a business standpoint when their competitors were building data centers and they were just getting compute from the hyperscalers. But now that they're computers, I think going to have to move into the game of Building their own data centers. They might regret salting the earth for data centers all over the country. And I wonder if that'll be the natural limit of their growth is they'll be hoisted on their own petard of doom or NIMBYism.
- [26:42]
Jason Calacanis
And they're also using the coding platform to build Anthropic itself better. So that in and of itself is a reason to. Now coding, you get the double whammy. You can make a better product and you can get paid for it.
- [26:55]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yes and no. Hold on. Because if you look on Twitter, people are panning Claude desktop and what they said is, this is all a bunch of vibe coded slop. I think we have to remember, if you keep these agents on task and they're guardrailed properly, this stuff is a force multiplier. The problem is nobody knows how to do this really well yet. Nobody has built real products of scale, largely using agents, yet nobody knows how to give an example of how an org structure should be redefined. Nobody knows how to budget properly. We had the CTO of Uber say, I give up, I've hit my token budget. The problems I see it are twofold. The first is just to build on Sax's point. All of these Frontier Labs have a very serious issue, which is both OpenAI and Anthropic are growing so fast that they're at a point now where they need their own infrastructure. It's kind of like when you first start building any kind of company, you're just much easier renting capacity from the hyperscalers.
- [27:53]
Travis Kalanick
And it's a dependency.
- [27:55]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yeah, but then it becomes a dependency. Exactly. And now when you're so big, it's actually strategically a huge mistake to not have your own compute supply. Why? Because if you look at who's leading, the Frontier Labs are leading. And Sachs, to your point, you mentioned this on X. You're like, there was all this doomerism, but maybe it was tied to compute capacity because when Bedrock opened up more capacity for Anthropic, all the doomerism went away. You're left wondering, like, is it really tied to just the fact that they were just trying to throttle usage? So if you're a Frontier Lab, you don't want to have to go through Amazon and GCP and Azure and Tin cup for access and capacity. What you'd much rather have is go straight to your customer. On the other side, if you're Gemini or Microsoft or Meta and you have all this compute. Because I saw a stat this week. The hyperscalers control 60% of all the compute. So the game theory there is, if you kneecap the Frontier Labs, it'll give you some chance to catch up. And it gives you time to catch up. Because no matter what the demand is, on the upside. You guys remember, like in social networking when Friendster was the cat's meow?
- [29:01]
Travis Kalanick
Yeah, cat's meow.
- [29:03]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Remember what the biggest problem with Friendster was? Friendster was slow as a dog.
- [29:08]
Travis Kalanick
Yes, yes.
- [29:09]
Chamath Palihapitiya
And what happened then? MySpace came in and took all the share. Then we came in Facebook and we took all their share. So there is a way where you can handicap and kneecap these companies by throttling compute access to them. So A, they are forced to now go and get in the game. Which is weird because, look, OpenAI has tried to displace some of the Stargate spend. I don't see any path, except they're going to have to do it themselves and Anthropic will have to do it themselves. But then separately, the other problem is when you change the subscription model in enterprise and you say, hey, we're not going to subsidize any more tokens, what's going to happen is all these token budgets are going to go crazy. And what Friedberg said is going to happen where he's like, hey, guys, why are you spending all this money? What are you making? And you inspect the code and you're like, what is this slop? And you're not going to add 30, 40, 50% opex to produce nothing. So I think that that's an open question. And that question will become more amplified over the next year as they push the costs off of them. So as Travis said, no more subsidy from the capital. You have to grow into it, but you're not going to support negative gross margins, so you're going to pass through the token costs. So I think it's a very dynamic moment right now for these.
- [30:21]
Jason Calacanis
And if you look at the ranking of these clusters and who has the most? Right now, people have forgotten about Colossus, which Elon's been building. He's expanding to 555,000 GPUs across three buildings. 18 billion in investment. And then if you look at Prometheus Meta's planned 2026, that's 150,000 GPUs. So this is.
- [30:45]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Well, Elon just announced a deal. He announced a deal this morning with Cursor. So Elon's renting a bunch of capacity. So he's now getting effectively into the data center business. He's going to be a hyperscaler so he's going to use as much as he can for Xai, and whatever's left over, he'll give to. Well, in this case, he's giving to Cursor to train their model. He could give us.
- [31:04]
David Sacks
What you're saying is you might as well over build capacity because that way your own models will be in a privileged position and you can sell the rest to your competitors a hundred percent. But chamath, to your point about the thing I was saying on X, I actually, I think I was retweeting Marc Andreessen, who pointed out that one of the reasons why Anthropic might have wanted to hold back Mythos is they simply didn't have the compute to serve it. The model was huge and very expensive to serve. Something like maybe even 10 or 20 times the token cost of, say, Opus. They knew Opus 4.7 was coming out, right? So they hold it back, knowing that they don't have the compute to serve it anyway, and they save their compute for the next iteration of Opus. And then by holding it back, they create this impression of scarcity and altruism, and it turns into this gigantic marketing event for their product because everyone in the government's like, oh, wow. They're holding it back because it's so amazing. Now, look, I think it may have been genuinely altruistic as well, in the sense that Mythos does reveal coding vulnerabilities that people didn't know about before. And it does make sense to give time to companies with large code bases to patch these dormant bugs and vulnerabilities. But it's looking more and more like Anthropic could not have offered that model commercially anyway because it was just too big and expensive and they needed to create space for Opus 4.7. So it's an interesting theory on what actually happened there.
- [32:33]
Jason Calacanis
All right, guys, before we go to our next story, some breaking news here. Here's your Poly Market, gentlemen. I don't know if you're placing some insider bets here, Friedberg, but looks like the all in podcast anthropic now 37% chance of buying the all in podcast.
- [32:48]
Travis Kalanick
This is live by what time?
- [32:50]
Jason Calacanis
From Poly Market. Yeah, this is by the end of the year.
- [32:53]
Travis Kalanick
By end of the year. Okay, got it.
- [32:54]
Jason Calacanis
By end of the year. So it's.
- [32:55]
David Friedberg
This isn't real, is it?
- [32:56]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, absolutely. They've been. People have been trading on this. This is heavily traded.
- [33:00]
Chamath Palihapitiya
It can't be. This is not $92 million of volume.
- [33:03]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, it's just the number three largest poly market.
- [33:06]
Travis Kalanick
There's no way this is real, dude.
- [33:08]
Jason Calacanis
There's no way.
- [33:09]
David Friedberg
It's breaking news, guys.
- [33:10]
Jason Calacanis
I. I don't control the news flow.
- [33:12]
David Friedberg
This is J. Cal slump.
- [33:13]
Travis Kalanick
This is no way this is real.
- [33:15]
David Sacks
Anybody can create a prediction market, I guess. Hey, what's the volume of that thing?
- [33:20]
David Friedberg
92 million.
- [33:21]
Travis Kalanick
It's not real.
- [33:22]
David Sacks
Is there only $2 behind it.
- [33:24]
Travis Kalanick
There's no way that's real. Guys.
- [33:26]
Jason Calacanis
Come on, guys. It's all good, guys. Time to upgrade the planes. I just. Hey guys, just. I don't need the PC 24. I'll take somebody's G650. Whoever's got a G650, go up to the 800. It's going to be trickle down to JCal. Let's do it. I'm giving up my platinum status.
- [33:43]
Travis Kalanick
Trickle down economics.
- [33:44]
Jason Calacanis
Trickle down avionics. All right, listen. Story number two. Trickle down. This is pretty good. Okay? Number two. All birds. Speaking of data centers, all birds just pivoted from ugly sneakers disgraciad to AI and the stock has ripped. Talking about peak bubble behavior, podcasts getting bought by frontier models and sneaker companies pivoting to data centers. Allbirds, as you know, is the ugliest sneakers on the planet. And this became a massive delusion in our industry that this company was worth billions of dollars. They went public in 2021. This might be one of the peak zerk moments. Raised $350 million in their IPO.
- [34:32]
David Friedberg
Sachs, were you an investor in this thing?
- [34:34]
David Sacks
Allbirds.
- [34:35]
David Friedberg
Allbirds back in. No, no.
- [34:38]
David Sacks
You're thinking about the scooter company.
- [34:40]
David Friedberg
That's right.
- [34:41]
David Sacks
Don't remind me of the investments that didn't work.
- [34:45]
Jason Calacanis
But no bird was crazy.
- [34:48]
David Sacks
This reminds me of the late 90s where all you had to do was change your name to whatever.com.
- [34:54]
David Friedberg
yeah.
- [34:55]
Jason Calacanis
Yes.
- [34:55]
David Sacks
And you get a huge pop in
- [34:57]
Jason Calacanis
your valuation and you could spit it out. Barnes and nobles.com became then Barnes and Nobles. And so the stock crashed and never looked back. There's your stock chart. They sold off all their brand assets for 39 million. About 10% of what they raised in the IPO. Congratulations to ever owns. Those ugly ass sneakers.
- [35:16]
David Friedberg
Why were they worth 4 billion?
- [35:17]
Jason Calacanis
They sold collectors. Collective delusion. Collective delusion. People in Silicon Valley like them and they just thought it was the next Nike tulips. It was too lift.
- [35:25]
David Sacks
Well, I think that was an era in Silicon Valley where people rewarded rapid growth without really looking at gross margins or cost of goods sold. People didn't really make the distinction between software and everything. Else, Right, right. Software. You never really had to worry about cogs or gross margin because the incremental cost of serving a customer with software is like, almost zero. So people in Silicon Valley weren't really trained to look at gross margin. And there was this rash of physical world companies that all of a sudden started getting crazy valuations. Travis, quite frankly, you might have. The success of Uber, yeah, this is your fault. Might have ushered in this era of these physical world companies that started getting valued like software companies, even though obviously they didn't deserve it.
- [36:10]
Travis Kalanick
David, thank you so much for that shout.
- [36:12]
David Friedberg
I really appreciate it.
- [36:13]
Jason Calacanis
You and Airbnb. It's your fault. Anyway, let's get back to.
- [36:17]
David Sacks
No, no, no, no, no.
- [36:17]
Travis Kalanick
Hold on, hold on. 21 is super interesting though, guys. I don't believe it was a physical versus digital thing. I believe it was a moment in time in the COVID zirp. Massive money going in. We hadn't seen inflation yet. It was all of that happening and the investor class was basically deciding, we are going to look two and three years forward on your current growth. And it wasn't one year forward, it was two or three years forward. And that's where these crazy valuations got weird. So if you went from zero to. If you went from 100 to $300 million in the last year, they'll play that two, three years forward and go, oh, yeah, you're totally 20 times bigger. We'll pay you for that now. That's where it got weird.
- [37:04]
Jason Calacanis
It got weird. Hey, Bird scooters was valued at 2 or 3 billion. They were doing micro mobility.
- [37:09]
Travis Kalanick
You're just trolling them, Jay.
- [37:11]
Jason Calacanis
No, we're giving everybody their flowers for incredible investments and even the mighty Sacks could trip up.
- [37:18]
David Sacks
Did you sell Free Idea?
- [37:20]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah.
- [37:21]
David Sacks
No, no, we don't do that. It was a Series A. We did. I mean, look, we got it right in the sense that it was a total phenomenon, but then the cities just cracked down on it and killed it. Look, if the cities had leaned into it. Yeah, look, if the cities had reacted differently, if they had leaned into it, if they had created, let's say, a scooter or like a small EV lane, it could have transformed cities. I mean, it would have been a lot easier to get around. But instead they banned it, they limited it. They didn't create designated areas for it. And then the coup de grace was basically when they would take a city where Bird already had, like, 80% dominant market share, and then they would say that, well, we're going to choose four operators and give them each 25% of say 1,000 scooter allocation. That just killed the economics for everybody.
- [38:06]
David Friedberg
Yeah, there's no market anymore.
- [38:08]
David Sacks
There's no market. Yeah. There was no marketplace network effect. Right. When they're basically just picking the winners and deciding the market's going to be.
- [38:14]
David Friedberg
Yeah, you can't compete and splitting it even so then, yeah, there's no competition. You can't drive value.
- [38:21]
Jason Calacanis
Regulatory capture at its worst.
- [38:22]
Travis Kalanick
Guys like we should watch for this in the autonomous car space too. Cities make it cute and start doing things like that. And what they did on scooters, they could do on cars.
- [38:33]
David Sacks
Ooh, yes, that's a really good point. Yeah, you're right. Instead of just letting the market play out, they say, well, we're only going to have X number 1000 autonomous cars.
- [38:42]
Travis Kalanick
New York is literally doing this right now.
- [38:45]
Jason Calacanis
They're doing medallions, New York and Boston.
- [38:47]
David Friedberg
And then the prices, prices go up. The innovation doesn't get realized. Consumers don't benefit. No one benefits. Basically, you've deleted the market.
- [38:55]
Jason Calacanis
Yes. And anyway, just to wrap up this story on the shoe company, they're now Newbird AI. They bought eight H1 hundreds, I think, with $50 million in a convertible note. And the stock has gone up 8.
- [39:11]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Stop. 8. Really? No, it's not 8.
- [39:12]
Jason Calacanis
No, it's a joke. Obviously. The stock's now at $14 a share. It's up 450% in the last week. Shout out to Wallstreetbets for staying.
- [39:21]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Can I say something serious?
- [39:22]
Jason Calacanis
More than the shorts can stay solvent.
- [39:26]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Can I say something serious?
- [39:27]
Jason Calacanis
Yes, please.
- [39:28]
Chamath Palihapitiya
There are a handful of transactions that have happened in the last few days that if you look far away, are head scratchers. So this is one I don't know if you guys saw recently, but Jane street did a, a billion dollar investment in essentially a NEO scaler and then also did a $6 billion compute deal with them. That was a little interesting. So what would I like to say about this? I think the thing that the capital markets are getting right is that we are massively compute constrained massively. And those are two problems. One is the power. So if you look at companies like Bloom Energy, it has gone absolutely straight up vertical nuclear. And the reason is because Bloom has a solution that allows you to use NAT gas, that allows you to do something on site and critically allows you to get your clean air permits very quickly because it has very, very little emissions. And it's been proven as such. And so instead of waiting for years to get on the Grid. If you wanted to build a data center, you can now use their services. The other part that's going absolutely nuclear is the actual land and the shell because it's turning out it's impossible to get these approvals. Now why is that? And I sent Nick an image. The reason is because underneath, at the core of it all is there's a tide that is shifting on AI. The American population is incrementally getting more and more negative on the whole subject matter writ large. And it's not clear exactly why they're doing that. Maybe it's the doomerism which we talked about last week, maybe it's the fear of the job loss that Jason has been talking about. Maybe it's just this idea of yet another wave of innovation that's only going to benefit a few in an extreme way, minting trillionaires all over the place while everybody else stands still. I don't exactly know what's causing it, but the sentiment is shifting. And as the sentiment shifts, the most scaled action that they can take they're taking, which is then they are going and voting down data centers. Here's an example which was insane. A town approves a $6 billion data center build and then half the board gets ousted just voted out overnight so that they can put in new people to undo the decision. So if you look at this all around the country, the answer is not oh, we're only going to build in Texas. That doesn't work. There's not enough power, there's not enough grid capacity, there's not enough nat gas that allows that to happen. Maine just passed a bill that bans all data center buildings. So I think the reason why allbirds went crazy is a very, very small canary in a very important coal mine which, which is we are absolutely compute constrained. I think if you play this out, the real problem again goes back to anthropic and OpenAI. If I were them, it is a five alarm fire for them. They more than anybody else needs to get their hands on compute. They need to have land powershell but otherwise that revenue could either slow down or hit a wall. And it will not be because of product quality and adoption. It will entirely be because of the friendster effect. You just couldn't keep the site up and I think that would be a huge, huge problem for everybody.
- [42:51]
Jason Calacanis
Sax, final thoughts on data centers and the Bell Lab?
- [42:54]
David Sacks
Well, I think Chamath is right that the data centers become very unpopular probably in 30 states they're just going to ban them outright and then it's very hard to get projects approved. Look, I think there's a few reasons for this. One is that there are a lot of, let's call them, real estate developers who are kind of wildcatters who are out there trying to get entitlements. And they did bring a lot of projects up for local permits where they didn't have a power solution. And there's no question that local communities do not want the data centers drawing off the grid, thereby increasing residential prices, if that data center is not bringing its own power generation. And the administration agrees with this. This is why the president did the ratepayer protection pledge, where we got all the major users of the data centers, you know, all the hyperscalers, to agree that they would not build new data centers without bringing their own power. So again, it was designed to be power neutral to the grid, or in fact, it would increase the amount of energy available to the grid because these data centers would give back when they're not at peak usage. So that's sort of like category number one is there's this fear of electrical rates going up. But there's a couple other categories, I think, of groups. So the second one was future of life. And a lot of these, like doomer groups saw that data centers were a way to stop AI progress. And there are interviews with some of these doomer folks who say things like, we have to meet people where they are, meaning that they've been unable to convince people that AI is going to lead to the terminator, but they can convince them that AI data centers are going to use up their water, for example, which isn't true. And so a lot of the nimbyism has been kind of astroturfed by a lot of the doomer groups, which have a lot of money thanks to contributions from a few tech billionaires like we've talked about in the past. So that's category number two. Category number three, ironically, again, is anthropic itself. It has allied itself politically with a lot of the doomer groups, a lot of the NIMBY groups. It didn't seem to matter in the first couple of years because anthropic had made the strategic decision to not to build its own data centers. So they probably thought that they were just throwing sand in the gears of OpenAI or XAI, their competitors, and they would just rely on hyperscalers to get their compute. And I think that that strategy has now backfired in the sense that they apparently have reached the limits of the compute that's available to them. By buying it from a third party. And they need to build their own data centers. It's going to be very interesting to see how they adapt to that and how the message around data centers changes over the next year, as let's call it. The effective altruists decide that all of a sudden data centers or certain kinds of data centers might be a good thing because they serve their mission. So I think that's going to be a very interesting thing to watch.
- [45:44]
David Friedberg
I'll tell you the one thing I think you're missing, which is that most people in America really are starting to really hate rich people. And there's no physical space that better represents the wealth in America, the wealth creation that's happened that a lot of people feel left behind from than the data center. What other physical space is there to go to? It is the temple of the wealthy. It is the mechanism, the tool, the machinery of the wealthy. It is the way that the rich, elite, tech, kind of political connected billionaires that we're obviously all attached to are taking from the poor, getting themselves ahead, shooting themselves to space, leaving everyone else behind. And the data center, I think is the representation of their progress and it is a representation of the progress that others don't feel. So that's why I think it is physically like the manifestation that people want to attack and destroy. There's very little rationale about, oh, let's stop AI robots from killing us. I think people, people just don't see the value in AI. The average person doesn't see the value in AI today. Yet, like we just talked about, so much of the value of AI is showing up in the enterprise and in the rebuilding of enterprises. But for a consumer's life to actually be altered in a meaningfully positive way, most people don't feel that yet. The best thing they see is some medical advice they're getting on ChatGPT or something, and that's kind of the end of it for them. So I think there's a lot of this populism that's swollen and that's taken over not just the US but probably a good chunk of the West. And the data center is the target.
- [47:20]
Jason Calacanis
It is the pied terre of this space. In a way, this is their attack vector.
- [47:25]
David Friedberg
To David's point, they'll probably ban Data centers in 30 states. Data centers can output an input at the speed of light, so they can be anywhere. I mean, you know, the reason you put data centers in different states is cheap power, low latency. So maybe you get a couple of milliseconds of latency. So the data centers can go anywhere. So as soon as all the states start banning the data centers, the data centers will just go to space, to Iceland, to Texas and Florida, and then. And then the data set. And then everyone will be forced to move on. Travis. They'll basically find the next target for populism, which will be something else. The pier to terre, the data center. What's next? You know, this is. This is part of what's going on right now, Private jets, where we've got this kind of level of debt from the. I always bring it back to this because I do think this is at the root cause of populism is the fact that the government promised so much, it's so inefficient, and as a result, it's destroyed the value of the dollar. Not given anyone anything that they thought they were getting.
- [48:18]
Jason Calacanis
And we do have the ratepayer pledge, Sachs, to address the energy issue. That was a big win, I think. And you worked on that, I believe.
- [48:26]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yeah, but hold on. Can I just say something? I think that ratepayer pledge is important. It doesn't change the business model of the utility. Meaning what the utility is allowed to do is every year build a budget. And the way that they decide how to charge you is that they are allowed to make investments. Right. And then they're allowed to earn 10% roughly on the amount of investment that they make. What do you think their incentive is? Their incentive is to find ways to keep investing and upgrading the infrastructure. So I suspect what you'll see is independent of what the data centers do on site, which I think is smart and good, and I'm glad you guys did that. It doesn't slow down the actual fundamental business model of the utility because those are local monopoly licenses that are granted at the state and county level. And so when you go inside and you look at those utilities, what they're allowed to do is say, well, I'm going to bury the lines underground because there's a wildfire threat that's going to cost 10 billion. And they present that the PUC has to say yes, and they're allowed to make 10% on 10 billion. So the business model of the utility has to be looked at because it is independent of all of these other things. And they have an incentive, like insurance companies, to just walk prices up over time.
- [49:44]
Jason Calacanis
It's true.
- [49:45]
David Sacks
That's why I think behind the meter, so, so important there, for sure. But look, I mean, this idea that data centers don't create jobs is wrong. I mean it's been a huge boon for blue collar jobs and the construction
- [49:56]
Jason Calacanis
industry while they're building the data center.
- [49:58]
David Sacks
Yeah, but that construction could be a wave that goes on for a decade or two decades. I mean the capex is not going down, it's increasing. Listen to for example what Jensen says about his projections. I mean it's not like the capex is a one year thing. We're seeing tens of thousands of new construction jobs being created and 25 to 30% higher wages for electricians, carpenters, the guys who hang drywall or pour concrete, create roads, install equipment. I mean these are blue collar jobs and it's creating again not just new jobs but also wage increases. It's a good thing, it's not a bad thing. I think the issue is a bad
- [50:35]
Jason Calacanis
thing, but it's not the same as a fab where the jobs are permanent and they're there. We can debate it all we want.
- [50:41]
Chamath Palihapitiya
There's about 100 data centers right now that are being contested. The data is for every hundred that are contested, about 40 get canceled. That number is increasing for this year. It's more than doubled already from what the number was last year. And the total economic value of those hundred data centers right now is about $162 billion.
- [50:59]
Travis Kalanick
Jason, the thing is that there are permanent jobs because where's the energy that's powering that? Where's the semiconductors that's powering that? There's a lot of.
- [51:12]
Jason Calacanis
We actually had Chase from Crusoe and Michael from Core Weave on the all in interview show and they said they're bringing energy with them. That's their big thing by oe. Bring your own energy to the space. They're bringing in nat gas, they're bringing in diesel fuel, they're bringing in solar. BYOE is the model.
- [51:31]
David Sacks
Well can I also say, listen, if you were of the opinion that you didn't want more data centers in America because it was using up say scarce energy resources or something like that, but you weren't just anti progress altogether then what you would want to do is at least see more data center construction among US allies. Right? Energy rich US allies. Well, a year ago that's one of the things I worked on was allowing the Gulf states to build data centers with American technology for American companies. And remember the controversy that caused. Everyone accused us that somehow this was like serving China. Well, those data centers are getting bombed and I don't think they'd be getting bombed right now by Iran if they were serving China.
- [52:13]
Jason Calacanis
These were they're very strategic. Yeah.
- [52:15]
David Sacks
The IRGC has put these data centers on a list of assets that they've threatened to destroy because they're American assets or they're assets of our Gulf State partners in partnership with America and American companies. This whole idea that somehow this was a threat to American national security was a total hoax. Just like the data center uses too much water. And what I'm saying is that a lot of the same forces were behind this hoax as are behind these data center hoax. Now, Friedberg is right about the resentments, but those resentments get whipped up and marshaled by people who have an agenda. And that agenda is well funded and strategic. And I can tell you that in the case of the GCC data centers, Anthropic was adamantly opposed to that and they were lobbying against it and they were against salting the earth against those projects. And I think the whole issue is kind of moot now anyway because I think the data centers have been blown up but. Or they've been threatened to. But it just shows how ridiculous and what a psyop some of the opposition to these ideas are.
- [53:19]
Jason Calacanis
And it's a cell phone in many ways. If you think about who are the top two spokespersons for our industry and what they're communicating to Americans versus say how the Chinese view AI, which is incredibly positive. We've got Dario who says it's the end of days, everything's going to be hacked, all your files are going to be hacked, all your accounts are going to be hacked. And then on the other and everybody's losing their job. That's our top spokesperson in Dario ID anthropic, the other top spokesperson just had a 70,000 word piece written about him where Ronan Farrow said, I had a dozen people tell me unprompted, Sam Altman's a sociopath. Those are the top two spokespeople. Those people cannot be the spokespeople for this industry. And this industry's gotta get focused on fixing the big three. Healthcare is gonna be dramatically improved by AI. Housing could be dramatically improved. I'm not sure who's working on that. And obviously education, the cost of education. We need somebody out there, a Michael Dell Jensen Elon just explaining how world positive this could be because right now AI is as popular as is less popular than ice, the Democrats and the government of Iran.
- [54:33]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Joe Lima at Alpha School on the education side. I think you just have to look at Alpha School. It's working.
- [54:38]
Jason Calacanis
All right, so that's your story, Chamath. That's the Story of all birds, the most overvalued startup. But we're going to play a little. Cue the music here. We're going to play a little game show for everybody. This is the price. David Sacks is wrong. Yes, this is the price is wrong. The price of the startup, Travis is wrong. And this is the game show where we guess which overvalued disaster are we talking about. First up, hailing from Austin, Texas, an enforcer of the PayPal mafia, it's Mr. David Sacks. Welcome to the program, David Sachs. Are you ready to play the price of the play?
- [55:15]
David Sacks
Let's do it.
- [55:16]
Jason Calacanis
You're ready to play? Okay.
- [55:17]
David Friedberg
All right, here we go.
- [55:18]
Jason Calacanis
The price is wrong. This startup was once valued at over $13 billion. Their main business model, selling JPEGs for fake Internet money. People lost their minds and started spending millions of dollars on monkey images. Play the thinking music, please. David Sacks, can you name that startup once billion?
- [55:39]
David Sacks
13 billion for. Is that like the bored apes thing?
- [55:43]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, you're closing in. Remember, form it in the name of a question.
- [55:47]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I know, I know, I know.
- [55:48]
Jason Calacanis
Selling JPEGs for fake Internet money. Me, me, me.
- [55:51]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Pick me, pick me.
- [55:53]
Jason Calacanis
Get your chance, Chamaf.
- [55:55]
David Sacks
Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. All right, let your moth do it.
- [55:58]
Jason Calacanis
I can't remember, they're spending millions of dollars.
- [56:01]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Okay, can I say it? Can I say it exactly.
- [56:03]
Jason Calacanis
It's your turn to steal.
- [56:04]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Open sea.
- [56:06]
Jason Calacanis
Correct. 100 points for Chamath Polyhapitiya. Okay, an amazing steal. An amazing steal. And next.
- [56:14]
David Sacks
But.
- [56:15]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, here we go. He puts the dick and dictator. Hailing from Palo Alto, California, it's your favorite doordasher, Chamath Palihapiti. How long you been door dashing there, Chamath?
- [56:25]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Nine years.
- [56:26]
Jason Calacanis
Nine years. You like that? What do you like about that? Is it the interaction with the people? Is it the tips? Is it stealing a couple of french fries? What do you like about being a doordasher there?
- [56:33]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I typically take four fries. I lick the burrito. Okay, licking burritos.
- [56:38]
Jason Calacanis
Did he just say licking burritos?
- [56:39]
David Sacks
This is why we need robot delivery. Robot delivery drivers. I mean, this is coming.
- [56:45]
Jason Calacanis
It's coming. Okay?
- [56:46]
David Sacks
We don't want our french fries being licked.
- [56:48]
Jason Calacanis
Let's get the music going here. This startup, once valued at 4 billion, allowed you to talk to other people on your mobile device during COVID and you could listen to mid vc.
- [56:59]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yes, yes, yes.
- [57:00]
David Friedberg
I got it, I got it.
- [57:00]
Chamath Palihapitiya
It's called Generic Stories.
- [57:02]
Jason Calacanis
Can you name that overvalued startup?
- [57:04]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Oh, my God, it's called Clubhouse.
- [57:05]
Jason Calacanis
Oh, my God. He's on a heater. That's 200 points for Chamath Ali Hapatilla. Hey, that's a lot of door dashes. He's gonna do very well here in the final round.
- [57:14]
David Sacks
That's an amazing memory. How soon we forget? I couldn't replace any of these names.
- [57:18]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, finally streaming in from a potato field at an undisclosed location In Idaho, it's Dr. David Friedberg. You're in the potato sciences, correct, Mr. Freeburg? That's right. Potatoes. You like the potatoes? You have a favorite potato dish? Is it the scallops? What do you like to do with your potatoes?
- [57:36]
David Friedberg
What is your name, mister? What is the host's name?
- [57:38]
Jason Calacanis
What is your name?
- [57:39]
David Friedberg
Host?
- [57:39]
Jason Calacanis
It is me. A jocular jcal. Let's go. Here we go. Jocular jcal here at the helm. You like a certain type of potatoes there? It's calacanis. And what do you like there on the potatoes? What's your favorite there? You like a creamy mash. Little. Little cheesy. You're liking. You like the cheese? Okay, very good. Okay, David, this startup was once valued at $270 million. This is your favorite. I understand you're a vegan. They sold juice. These juice packages went to a juice machine.
- [58:09]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.
- [58:12]
Jason Calacanis
Branded as the next iPhone, the iPhone of juice. Can you name?
- [58:15]
David Sacks
Oh, I know it.
- [58:16]
Jason Calacanis
Undervalued star David Fried.
- [58:18]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I know it. I know it. Pick me.
- [58:19]
Jason Calacanis
You'll have a chance. That's 100 points.
- [58:23]
David Sacks
He's on the right. Wait, are you searching? It looks like he's searching.
- [58:26]
David Friedberg
Did he search?
- [58:26]
Jason Calacanis
Oh, my God. Are you on your device?
- [58:28]
David Sacks
He looked like he was on his device.
- [58:30]
David Friedberg
Internet free. Internet free Here.
- [58:32]
David Sacks
He's on his device.
- [58:33]
Chamath Palihapitiya
All right, folks, there you have it.
- [58:34]
Jason Calacanis
Clear winner, Chamath Palihapitiya. Tell him what he's won. He's won a trip to Temptations 2 in Cabo. You're going directly to Temptations 2, an adult resort that's for you and two of your friends. Okay? Enjoy temptations too. Chamath Palihapitiya.
- [58:50]
David Friedberg
Two of your friends.
- [58:52]
David Sacks
What a fun game this is.
- [58:53]
Jason Calacanis
You can bring your throuple.
- [58:54]
David Sacks
I think this is going to need to become a regular feature of the pod. Everyone forgets the unicorns that don't work. They just disappear into the ether.
- [59:05]
Jason Calacanis
All right, all right. There you go. You won a pied a terre on
- [59:11]
Travis Kalanick
a fishing truck bill in New York.
- [59:14]
Jason Calacanis
You got a pied A terre available to you as your first place winner. Chamath Palihapitiya, doordasher from Palo, Alta. Pied terre. All right, listen. There's been a lot of shenanigans going down in D.C. the most boring city in the world, where apparently everybody's getting a little frisky after hours. TMZ launched a news bureau. Eric Slalwell is out of the governor's race. There's a lot of dark stuff that's been released. He is innocent until proven guilty, but it's not looking good.
- [59:47]
David Friedberg
He also resigned from Congress.
- [59:48]
Jason Calacanis
Jcal and he resigned from Congress as well. And Friedberg, our investigative journalist, now working as a stringer for tmz. Friedberg, what have you learned? What's in Friedberg's view?
- [60:02]
David Friedberg
I haven't learned anything.
- [60:04]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, you have an analysis then maybe.
- [60:07]
David Friedberg
My anecdote on this is back in December, when it was first rumored that Swalwell was going to run for governor, I started making some calls to various folks to be like, hey, what do we think of this guy? Is he going to be a good candidate? Obviously, I and a lot of other people before they evacuate the state, care a lot about the future of California. So I started checking around. I spoke to several people who independently told me that there's knowledge about this guy sending pics to employees, and that this guy has a bunch of stuff that's going to come out about him. So I heard all of this not from one person, but from several different sources. This was back in December, going into January, and I largely kind of dismissed it because I was like, if this is true, this would have all come out already. I'm like, there's no way this is true. If it was true, people would have talked about it. They would have made a thing about it. If multiple people are telling me about this, then I've got to assume that it's a rumor that's being used to block him from running for governor versus it being a real thing, because multiple people had this knowledge and this information. So this was December, January, where I had these conversations, and at that point, nothing had come out. So I was like, okay, it doesn't seem like this is real. And then everything that I had been told started to come out in the last week. So the striking aspect of all of this for me was how much knowledge there was about these various incidents with the guy, how so many people had this knowledge, and how no one had actually brought the knowledge to bear. Which begs the question, why did they not do what was right by the victims or why did the victims sit on the sidelines waiting for the right moment to all come out together? Because this was broad knowledge within a community of people. And they made the choice not to bring it forward with that knowledge. And that's what was so striking to me about this whole thing. I had honestly dismissed the whole thing as just being rumor mongering to try and besmirch the guy. And it turned out that these were all being held back purposefully and deliberately for a very particular moment in time when they were all brought forward to be used.
- [62:26]
Jason Calacanis
And let me just be clear. These are all allegations. Nothing's been proven in court. He does get his day in court.
- [62:32]
David Friedberg
Absolutely.
- [62:32]
Jason Calacanis
Whether it looks bad, et cetera, we just wanna make sure there's a bunch of alleged here. Yeah. No matter how bad it is.
- [62:39]
David Friedberg
And all that I'm saying is that people had told me about these supposed claims five months ago, four months ago, multiple people, and had chosen not to bring it forward. And that the victims had not come forward publicly with these claims. And then there was this coordinated effort to bring everything forward at the same moment. And that's what was so striking to me is just how coordinated all of this was.
- [62:59]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Who's controlling it? Who do you think? Like, is there like a meeting? Is there like a council?
- [63:04]
David Sacks
Nancy Pelosi?
- [63:06]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Jesus Christ. It's so.
- [63:08]
David Friedberg
I don't know if that's true.
- [63:09]
David Sacks
Well, not just her.
- [63:11]
David Friedberg
I'll tell you my sense of it. My sense of it is that there are certain insiders and he's not an insider. And those insiders are like the Katie Porters of the world. Katie Porter, I think, is who the Democratic establishment wants to be governor. She's an insider to national Democrat. She's an insider to California Democrats. And I think that she's the preferred candidate. Tom Steyer.
- [63:34]
Chamath Palihapitiya
She's a spousal abuser.
- [63:35]
David Sacks
I don't know that Katie Porter is like this ultimate insider, but I think there are. Look, there are clearly insiders. The Democratic Party is a machine that exists to siphon off as much money as possible from the public tilt to the interests that support the party. And it's their gravy train. And, and they're not gonna let anyone stop that gravy train.
- [63:53]
David Friedberg
I don't know, Sachs. I don't know if it's just the Democrats.
- [63:55]
David Sacks
Hold on a second. They're not gonna let that gravy train stop for one second. Now, the Democratic Party had a huge problem in this California governor's race, which is that the Democratic field was very fragmented, and so the two Republican candidates actually were polling the highest. And so, just so the viewers have context, California has this weird jungle primary system where the top two go to a runoff. They don't have a Democrat lane and a Republican lane. They just take the top two jungle primary, and then they go to the runoff. Even today, still Hilton and was it Bianca or whatever. They are polling at both around like 14 or 15%. And if the election were held today, you'd have two Republicans in the runoff. So the Democrats needed to winnow the field down and have fewer candidates. In addition to that, they must have been concerned that all of this oppo on Swallow will come out once it was him versus, say, Steve Hilton. And they didn't want it to come out later when they could lose the election. So the powers that be made the decision to lance the boil. Probably there was a conversation with him to tell him to get out of the race. He didn't listen. And by the way, remember, this feels a lot like what happened with Joe Biden when he had to drop out of the presidential race.
- [65:07]
Jason Calacanis
Remember that sounds surprisingly like that.
- [65:09]
David Sacks
The whole Democratic establishment and all the mainstream media were saying that Biden was sharp as a tack. Okay. And then he had that disaster debate performance with Trump, and it became clear, hot swap. Yeah. And you could just see the text messages were flying during the debate between the Democratic Party insiders. And by the time that debate was over, they had congealed on a new position, which is that Biden had to step aside. And then Nancy Pelosi was reported as having gone to the President and said, we can do things the hard way or the easy way. Imagine that. Like telling the President of the United States, we can do things the hard way or the easy way. And then Biden disappeared for a week, and magically he stepped aside by tweets. Remember that? He published a statement that appeared to be done by an auto pen. People were speculating whether he was even behind this or whether the staff pushed him to do it. The whole thing was extremely weird. But he was clearly muscled out of it. Just a few days before, he, he had said, I'm not leaving the race, no matter what. I mean, it was like straight out of that Wolf of Wall street meme, they're not getting me out of here. And then a few days later, he's resigning by tweet. And again, Nancy Pelosi appears to be the figure at the center of both these things. She was.
- [66:24]
David Friedberg
Hold on, Pelosi.
- [66:25]
David Sacks
Hold on a second. Pelosi is reported as having been Swalwell's mentor. I guess she found him roughly 20 years ago to run for Congress in the first place. When the Republicans wanted to kick Swalwell off of the Intelligence Committee, the House Intelligence Committee, for allegedly being involved with that Chinese spy, Fang Fang. It was Pelosi who protected him. So she's sort of been a central figure in his career. I'm not saying she approved of anything he did, but listen, politics is there, but there's no way that that button gets pushed without going to Pelosi for the sign off. Right. I mean, she's like the boss of this operation. And I think that the same thing happened to Swallow, that happened to Biden is they went to him and said, we can do things the hard way, the easy way. He was too dumb to listen. And they did things the hard way.
- [67:17]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah. Shout out Nancy Pelosi, incredible day trader. And shout out to a friend of the Pod Roe who's now beaten Nancy Pelosi. I think his trades this year, he's. He's actually even beaten Nancy Pelosi. That was the.
- [67:32]
David Friedberg
Ro Khanna has traded $100 million of stock.
- [67:35]
Chamath Palihapitiya
He trades more frequently than Citadel Securities.
- [67:38]
David Friedberg
What?
- [67:38]
Jason Calacanis
I mean, it's incredible. Yeah. Where's his P editor? I want to get in on it.
- [67:43]
David Friedberg
The congressman you've been supporting for years, Sachs is a great stock trader.
- [67:47]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, apparently. We should have been talking to him. Not about taxes. We should have been talking to him about trades.
- [67:52]
David Sacks
There were things I liked about Ro Khanna. I mean, he did support freedom of speech with the whole Twitter thing.
- [67:57]
Jason Calacanis
No, he just.
- [67:58]
David Sacks
You know what it was is that the Overton window shifted so much.
- [68:01]
Jason Calacanis
You supported him.
- [68:02]
David Sacks
Yeah. When I supported Ro Khanna, freedom of speech was a big issue and he was one of the only Democrats to support that. He was also, I think, the only member of the Progressive Caucus to support a diplomatic track for Ukraine, which I supported. And I gave him credit for that. And yeah, I knew that he was in favor of a wealth tax, but I thought that was just a very unserious proposal, that it wasn't in play in any way. Well, the Overton window shifted so much that now the wealth tax really is a possibility. So, you know, things have changed.
- [68:31]
Jason Calacanis
Here it is. Shout out to our boy Ro Khanna. Look at this. Right about now, Chamat's thinking about making a managing director offer here. Ro if it doesn't, if you get booted out of office, you could become a managing director at Alt Capital.
- [68:45]
David Friedberg
Statistically, like, even if you had insider information. Making that much money is like, very hard.
- [68:50]
Jason Calacanis
Holy cow. Nancy Pelosi is going to shiver. O' Connor next for not giving her the. Giving her the inside track on whatever he's betting on.
- [69:00]
David Sacks
What did he bet? Well, look, any, any. As we all know, any investor can have a good quarter or a year. But to put up the kind of returns that Nancy Pelosi has done over decades is nothing short of miraculous.
- [69:11]
Jason Calacanis
It's generational. It's a generational run. Give her her flowers.
- [69:14]
Travis Kalanick
She's substantially better than Warren Buffett.
- [69:19]
David Sacks
I mean, the Buffett. By the way, Stan Druckenmiller and Nancy Pelosi are three of the most accomplished investors of all time.
- [69:27]
Jason Calacanis
Whatever you did to the poor Buffett fans, Chamath, they are incredibly angry at you for desecrating his legacy.
- [69:37]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I didn't desecrate his legacy. I pointed out one unavoidable fact, which is his returns are bimodally distributed pre and post reg fd. When you have to follow the rules of disclosure. Everybody's returns got kneecapped when there was no disclosure rules. His returns were off the charts. That's just the mathematical truism. Now, what's interesting to note is the reason why Nancy Pelosi's returns are so consistently good is reg FD does not apply to people in Congress. That should be the takeaway. They can learn things.
- [70:09]
Jason Calacanis
We gotta stop them.
- [70:11]
Chamath Palihapitiya
They can learn things in their committee meetings. In fact, there are situations where things are disclosed and then they are trading in real time.
- [70:19]
Jason Calacanis
Shout out to the skiff. Yeah, get out of the skiff quick and get that trade in.
- [70:22]
Chamath Palihapitiya
So I have enormous respect for Warren Buffett and what he's done. He's the goat of goats. But the returns post reg fd, they are just materially worse than they were pre reg fd. And that's just true.
- [70:32]
Jason Calacanis
What's he going to do with that cash position, Chamath? Speaking of Buffett, the market, 300 billion sitting there.
- [70:39]
Chamath Palihapitiya
The market is in a very complicated moment right now. If you look at historical indicators of value. So if you look at Shiller as an indication of value, it's peaking. If you look at the Buffett index, it's peaking. So there are things that when you look at it look like all time highs. And the problem with that is you would say, oh man. But there's this weird disparity, dispersion happening in the market. Dispersion means literally a few companies are hitting all time highs. I think it's like eight or nine and everybody else is not. So it's a really complicated moment. It's hard to understand what's going on. But he's got a lot of cash if he's sticking to his knitting. He's looking at the Shiller index and he's looking at his own indicator which shows all time highs and he's waiting for a correction.
- [71:28]
Travis Kalanick
He's not really in charge anymore. Berkshire Hathaway is not Warren Buffett anymore even though he's a big owner. He's not not really doing it.
- [71:35]
Jason Calacanis
But I mean the fact that they're sitting on that massive pile of cash says something that they're not putting it to work in the market says they don't see an opportunity yet. Sachs Travis, I'm curious your takes either one of you can go in whichever order you want. On how is the market crushing it while we're in week seven of a war and we put $100 billion or something into this military activity in Iran and the market is pricing it in shrugging it off and we're hitting all time highs. Sachs I don't know if you feel
- [72:06]
David Sacks
comfortable first look, I think it's pretty straightforward which is that in the wake of the meeting in Islamabad that the market is feeling confident and pricing in that the war is going to get resolved. The president also recently said that it's very close to being wrapped up, the military objectives are close to being achieved and he's made it sound like it's going to be resolved. Yes, a deal was not signed in Islamabad. I always thought that was an unrealistic expectation that these two countries which are at war with each other and in fact have had hostile relations for almost 50 years are going to resolve all their differences in 24 hours. It's not realistic. But the impression that the market I think has and clearly is trading on this is that that war is going to be what Donald Trump said, which is an excursion and something that is on its way to being resolved that they've made progress. And Jake Al, you're right. The whole week has just been incredibly strong. I think by Tuesday the market had recovered all of its losses since the start of the war. I think it made a new high yesterday on Wednesday and it's making new highs, fresh highs today on Thursday. So you just have to say that at the present time the market thinks and I would consider the stock market to be the ultimate prediction market that this war is on its way to being resolved just to qualify. I'm not speaking as a member of the administration of course not. I'm not saying that I know something. Okay, you don't know anything.
- [73:39]
Jason Calacanis
I'm just interpreting what the market is. No clipping.
- [73:43]
David Sacks
I'm not representing anyone and I don't know anything different than. Than what any of you know. I'm just saying that I think this is what the market is clearly pricing in. And I'm paying attention to what the statements are of the president and Vice president and this.
- [73:59]
Jason Calacanis
Travis, you and I were talking the other day while you were slaughtering me in backgammon when you won our eight point match. You're almost caught up about the taco trade, not Trump always chickens out. You have a theory about Trump always cares about optics. Unpack it for us, Travis.
- [74:17]
Travis Kalanick
Yeah, so while I was beating you back Ammon, I sort of had a. There's like the. Because Jake Hal asked me and the insight is. And I think this maybe is just the more simple view of things, which is Trump's weather vane is a stock market. We see Vol is up, we see the VIX is really high. But you know what, the S and P is trading in this band that's actually fairly tight given the crazy shit that's going down and everybody's nervous. But actually he moves in the policy space. He does not let the S and P go down too low. People also get the sort of the panic in thing now which is like he gets people nervous. He makes moves and then he comes back to sort of reality and gets things done. Is it practical? And probably the better parts of what he might be what he does well and people are pricing that in. So there's all the things Sachs is saying about the nuances and the details, but the sort of super high level like I'm in low earth orbit view is like the stock market is Trump's weather vane and he will go to the place that makes the stock market come up and if he's go and if it's up and it's too high, he almost feels like it's too easy. So he makes it hard on himself again and then he brings it back up and the traders are getting used to it.
- [75:43]
David Friedberg
I think.
- [75:44]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah, it's like playing poker Chamath with Alan Keating. It's just like, how is this guy solvent? He's literally playing every hand of poker. He's losing tons of money. And then all of a sudden by the end of the night he hits two big pots and he's got the nuts both times and he pulls out of the stall. What's your take on the market today, Chama.
- [76:04]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yeah, I mean, I'll just do it again, but I think the, the Shiller PE Nick, I sent it to you shows near all time highs. Then the second is the Buffett index which is the sum of all US equities divided by GDP is also at all time highs. So this would generally mean that you need to be increasingly a little bit more risk off. But then the opposite side of that, and I sent you a third one and this is why it's so confounding is you have signals showing everything which is, which typically doesn't happen. And this is this dispersion point where when you see this performance and it's up 5% in the first half of April, typically the market is up almost 32% on average for the rest of the year. And we were already up, as Sack said, you know, 7.5% already.
- [76:50]
Travis Kalanick
And trying to read this graph. This is crazy. I don't even know what's going on here.
- [76:54]
Chamath Palihapitiya
This is just a, this is just a dispersion. But the, the, the idea of all of this is I think we're in a moment where you can find a piece of data to underwrite your bias. And I think that's where there's a lot of danger. I don't know for me personally, I'm generally more risk off right now and more importantly, I'm waiting for these IPOs so that I can, to be very honest with you, delever and get some chips off the table. I think that it is crucial that this SpaceX IPO get done ASAP. And then I think it's even more crucial that one of anthropic and OpenAI front run the other one and get out first. And the first two charts are the reasons why.
- [77:38]
Jason Calacanis
It's fairly obvious to me what's going on here. You have these multiple trends going on at the same time. The reason people and traders are valuing this, and I think there is some smart money in the market right now is what you're seeing in terms of the earnings potential of these companies as they deploy AI, as they have unlimited intelligence, and the top employees at the top companies become 10 or 20 or 30 times more productive. That's never been seen before. Microsoft Office may have made you 30% more efficient, the Internet may have made you 50% more efficient, but none of these things made you 10 times. And you had a really interesting point that you slipped in earlier Chamath, which was nobody knows how to harness these things yet. Right. And it's producing slop the truth is 10% of people do know how to harness it. 20% maybe. And I watch this in my own organizations and I watch it in 600 portfolio companies. The ones that do deploy it correctly, they are running the table on the ones that are not. So the efficiency boom that we're going to see at these companies, whether it's Meta or Uber or Airbnb, maybe I'm just. Whoever executes it properly is going to be phenomenal. The earnings will be insane.
- [78:44]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Maybe I'm an idiot, but it has not translated into a tsunami of more revenue and more profit for me yet. Maybe I'm the only one and maybe it's everybody else but me, but I haven't seen it.
- [78:57]
Jason Calacanis
I see it in a lot of companies. So I think in private companies we have two companies as just two examples, Micro one, which is doing data, you know, dark pools of data for these language models. And they have built technology that allows them to build data and allows them to collect data to help the large language models companies grow. And they are on a tear by using this to identify and find great people who can then contribute to these corpuses. And then we have one tax GPT that is making the accountants. I think they have 6 or 7% of all accountants using their.
- [79:27]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Jason, you agree?
- [79:28]
Jason Calacanis
They're just ripping.
- [79:29]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I hope you can agree with accountants. I hope you can agree with me with the following statement. Small companies nibbling at the edges is not where these guys will build a multi trillion dollar market cap.
- [79:41]
Jason Calacanis
I think we're both in alignment. Big companies, dumb companies, slow to implement the technology. Startups, no, they aren't implementing new technology. They're always the laggards when it comes to implementing new technology.
- [79:52]
Chamath Palihapitiya
The reason that they are slow is not because they are dumb. The reason that they're slow is their business is much more sophisticated and much more complicated than many other businesses. And what I'm saying is if you can't prove that this works in the big time, prime time, big league use cases, it's a toy.
- [80:11]
Jason Calacanis
All right, Sacks, where do you stand? Are you in the JCAL position? The startups are showing the way. They're being massively efficient. They're growing revenues like we've never seen in the startup community before with less people or you're in the chamath camp. Hey, big companies are not having it drop to the bottom line and they're smart or both things are true. Where do you stand Sackspedia, adjudicator of this case?
- [80:30]
David Sacks
I mean, honestly, I'm probably closer to you, jcal, I hate to say that. Listen, because look, I think people are still figuring out how to drive business value out of AI and change management is hard and the bigger the company, the harder it is. So what's happening right now is there are a lot of transformation projects at large enterprises that are failing. There's like a big McKinsey study on that. But if you look at activity from the bottom up, I think it's very interesting. It's becoming more interesting. And over the last several months, obviously with coding reaching a new level, we're starting to see very interesting things happening there. And obviously the revenue that's now being generated from these coding models is again, it's exponential, like we've never seen before. So the ROI is finally there at the model layer, meaning before people were saying that it's a bubble because you had all this massive capex at the data center level and there was no ROI coming at the model layer. Now we have the ROI at the model layer and I guess we're sort of questioning whether the ROI will be there at the application level. But in any event, I think things are progressing. I mean, look, I'm fundamentally, I'm bullish on this whole thing.
- [81:44]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Okay, no, no, let me be clear. Hold on, hold on.
- [81:46]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, great.
- [81:47]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Obviously I'm bullish. I'm in the space, I'm doing it.
- [81:49]
Jason Calacanis
You're in the arena.
- [81:52]
Chamath Palihapitiya
We have seen in every single wave, in the mobile wave, we needed consumers to show up at scale, so we needed consumer experiences. And it was very obvious that there were these consumer businesses that were going to be, if not already incredibly, incredibly profitable. Google and Facebook were profitable within the first few years. They never looked back. And all I'm trying to point out to you guys is there is not one great example yet. If we believe enterprise is where all the money is, and if we believe that's what's going to underpin these trillion dollar valuations, just please somebody show me a couple of good examples of scaled profits.
- [82:29]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, fair enough. Travis, final word here on.
- [82:33]
David Sacks
But by the way, can I say one other thing? I think Chamath has a good point about being risk off right now because if you just look at valuation metrics, they do seem to be quite high and I've seen other versions of those metrics as well. So look, it's very, very hard to time the market. I don't try, but I think you could make an argument just based purely on valuation levels, not events that you want to adopt a more conservative posture right now.
- [82:58]
Jason Calacanis
I Think the bet you're making then, Travis, is are these valuations so high right now on the standards that the efficiency that AI could bring to these companies is not real enough to continue the growth from here? It's not a catalytic enough technology. And you know, when you look at.
- [83:22]
Chamath Palihapitiya
No, it's the opposite. All these traditional companies have horrible valuations. They've been crushed. So my point is if AI is real, the upside is also real. All I'm saying is the details guys matter. It's very hard to take a very complicated business and all of a sudden transform it. It's not as easy as it sounds. That word is easy to say for sure.
- [83:45]
Jason Calacanis
Travis, go ahead. Final word, final word from Travis.
- [83:47]
Travis Kalanick
A couple things. First is when it comes to big companies, I think the big thing about, let's call it the autonomous enterprise is change management is the big boy. And change management actually is about all the people that already work there. The middle managers, the technocrats, the bureaucrats, the whatever, the Kratz, the Krat and getting the change management going, the change management going there. It's a human thing and it's very tricky with very complex processes, many of which are not even documented. And in theory it's just all going to happen real fast, but in practice that's hard. So that's possible. Part one, part two what I'm seeing with true tech companies, real companies, public, I would say public, like hardcore public companies, I mean like, you know, founder led, you know, folks that are really cranking public companies and tech companies that are sort of up and comers. I talk to CEOs across the board and they're like, they're fired up about the development, the sort of the productivity and deployment schedule and the new features that you're able to roll out much, much, much faster because they've pivoted their culture sort of very pro AI development. And I'm getting like almost at this point a consistent feedback from real founder CEOs that like this stuff's real and it's, it's not just hype now. There are folks pushing, you know, selling their book that are like, oh, we're at AGI and all this. Anybody who's worked with these agents and done the AI dev stuff, there's a lot of good stuff, but they're not, they're not that smart yet. They're just not that smart. Anybody who's done like, I've had a side quest where I'm just investing. I have agents investing and betting on Kalshi and Poly and These other places. And it's silly how dumb the agents are. Even their best agents, to be honest.
- [85:54]
Jason Calacanis
Yeah. The agents are what you. You have to be human in the loop with the agent. The agent has no taste. The agent can do repetitive tasks. The agent is not going to do something novel, and they quickly can get lost in the forest.
- [86:06]
Travis Kalanick
We had to spend a lot of time we had to spend a lot of time with our investing agents, getting them on board with the idea that if you want to make money investing, you can't be on both sides of the same bet.
- [86:20]
David Friedberg
Yeah.
- [86:22]
Travis Kalanick
You know what I mean?
- [86:22]
Jason Calacanis
There it is.
- [86:23]
Travis Kalanick
Just like that. That's where we're at. It's. The AGI is not here. And it's kind of silly for folks, I think, to sort of suggest it is.
- [86:30]
Jason Calacanis
Absolutely. Hey, guys, we got a wrap. Travis, you didn't get to play the Price is Wrong. I have two more. You guys want to do a bonus round of the Price is Wrong?
- [86:40]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yeah, do it, do it, do it. See if Travis gets it.
- [86:43]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, but you guys can steal. You guys can steal here, let me get my background music. I gotta. Give me the music. Travis, you're gonna get to do the bonus round here. Let's go, everybody. We got Travis Kalanick. He's here. He is a professional motorsports player from Tallahassee, Florida. How is it down there in Tallahassee, Florida? I understand you do a little handiwork to pay the bills, but you spend most of your time out there on the lakes and the oceans doing water sports. Yeah. You like the water sports?
- [87:10]
Travis Kalanick
I love the water sports. Doing water ski lessons on the weekends. Anybody's interested?
- [87:16]
Jason Calacanis
All right, I'll be out there at Tallahassee, Florida. Okay, now here we go. It's your job to figure out the price is wrong. The price is wrong. Here we go.
- [87:27]
Travis Kalanick
It's so funny.
- [87:29]
Jason Calacanis
The price is wrong here. Here we go. This is your bonus round.
- [87:33]
Travis Kalanick
Yeah.
- [87:34]
Jason Calacanis
All right. This startup raised 900 million at a $9 billion valuation.
- [87:40]
Chamath Palihapitiya
This is a big one.
- [87:41]
Jason Calacanis
This is a big one. Before dissolving in 2018. And their famously deep voiced founder CEO is currently serving an 11 year sentence in a federal prison.
- [87:53]
Travis Kalanick
Yes.
- [87:54]
Jason Calacanis
Can you name that mispriced startup? Can you name the mispriced startup?
- [87:59]
Travis Kalanick
It rhymes with Smyranos.
- [88:02]
Jason Calacanis
Smyranos. Okay, you're closing in here. Be careful. You have to formulate a question. You could lose.
- [88:08]
Travis Kalanick
Twist the lranos.
- [88:10]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Theranos.
- [88:10]
Jason Calacanis
Okay, very good. A hundred points. You're on the board. And here is your next one. This is Your next one. Okay, this is the overtime. All three players get to play this one. Whoever zooms in first and says it. This is your first final. That's the mispriced startup here. The price is wrong on this startup here.
- [88:29]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Come on, ch. You can do this. Come on, ch.
- [88:31]
Jason Calacanis
You got this now. Here we go.
- [88:32]
Chamath Palihapitiya
You can do this.
- [88:33]
Jason Calacanis
This short form mobile first streaming platform raised 1.7 billion from top investors.
- [88:41]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Jeffrey, Cat. The.
- [88:42]
Jason Calacanis
The. The.
- [88:43]
Chamath Palihapitiya
What is it?
- [88:43]
Jason Calacanis
You got to yell it out. Top investors across Silicon Valley and shut down rookie Quickie.
- [88:50]
David Sacks
Quickie.
- [88:50]
Travis Kalanick
Wrong.
- [88:51]
David Sacks
David Sack's wrong. No, no, I know.
- [88:54]
Jason Calacanis
Jeffrey Katzenberg's company. Jeffrey Katzenberg squibbies.
- [89:02]
Chamath Palihapitiya
Yes.
- [89:02]
Jason Calacanis
There's your champion, everybody. Let's tell him what he won. He apparently he's won a Pierre d' terre in downtown East Austin. A pied a terre in East Austin by the airport. God knows what shenanigans are going down there. I think if you need methamphetamine or a date, you're going to have an easy time there, Chamath. Okay. Oh, hey, Chamath. I'm getting hammered with people who want to come to the sold out liquidity. 500 was the cap you put on it. You've been dicking around as dictator. Can we add 50 seats?
- [89:31]
Chamath Palihapitiya
I think we can add 50 or 100. I don't know. Lisa, can we add 100?
- [89:34]
Jason Calacanis
Get a simulcast room going. All right, we'll see you all. Oh, and the all in Summit tickets are on sale. Go to all in dot com. And yeah, don't get shut out of the Summit, folks, because this happens every time. You guys, email me two months out. The tickets have been sold out for four months. So get your tickets now@allin.com. another amazing episode.
- [89:54]
Chamath Palihapitiya
And love you, boys.
- [89:55]
Jason Calacanis
See you next time. Bye bye, bye bye. We'll let your winners ride Rain Man David Sachs.
- [90:06]
David Sacks
And instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it.
- [90:10]
Jason Calacanis
Love you, queen of kin. Besties are gone.
- [90:20]
Travis Kalanick
13.
- [90:21]
Jason Calacanis
That is my dog taking a notice in your driveway.
- [90:26]
Travis Kalanick
Oh, man, my habit will meet me at.
- [90:29]
Chamath Palihapitiya
We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're all this huge. Just. It's like this, like sexual tension that they just need to release somehow.
- [90:42]
Jason Calacanis
We need to get merch.