2025 Gotham Book Prize Finalist Yasmin Zaher

Summary

All Of It Podcast Summary: Yasmin Zaheer Discusses Her Debut Novel "The Coin"

Episode Title: 2025 Gotham Book Prize Finalist Yasmin Zaheer
Host: Alison Stewart
Release Date: February 10, 2025
Podcast: All Of It by WNYC

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Introduction to Yasmin Zaheer and "The Coin"

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart welcomes Yasmin Zaheer, the author of her debut novel "The Coin", which has been shortlisted for the 2025 Gotham Book Prize. The conversation delves deep into the novel's themes, Yasmin's unique background, and the intricate character development that defines her work.

From Biomedical Engineering to Fiction Writing

Alison Stewart opens the discussion by highlighting Yasmin's transition from a background in biomedical engineering to becoming a novelist.

Alison Stewart [00:38]: "Yasmin Zaire's debut novel, The Coin, is a finalist for the 2025 Gotham Book Prize..."

Yasmin Zaheer explains the pivotal moment that led her to embrace writing:

Yasmin Zaheer [01:39]: "I think the engineering was the pivot point, actually. I've always wanted to be a writer..."

She recounts her early passion for writing, copying children's books into her notebooks during childhood, and eventually overcoming her fears to pursue writing seriously in her twenties.

The Influence of Journalism on Fiction

Alison inquires about Yasmin’s experience in journalism before she became a novelist.

Alison Stewart [02:06]: "I guess you also worked as a journalist before? Novelist before becoming a novelist, what did journalism teach you about writing fiction?"

Yasmin Zaheer contrasts journalism with fiction, emphasizing the shift from objective truth to subjective storytelling:

Yasmin Zaheer [02:16]: "In journalism, you tell the facts... But in fiction you really say your own truth."

She highlights her preference for exploring personal and subjective truths in her narratives.

Crafting a Nameless Protagonist

A significant creative choice in "The Coin" is the decision to leave the protagonist unnamed. Alison probes into this artistic decision.

Alison Stewart [02:47]: "The narrator whose name we don't know why did you decide to have a nameless protagonist?"

Yasmin Zaheer shares her struggle with finding a fitting name and the subsequent decision to leave the character unnamed to preserve her raw and undefined nature:

Yasmin Zaheer [02:54]: "I couldn’t find anything that sounded right... I was able to keep her more raw, in a way."

Exploring Obsession with Cleanliness

Yasmin reads a poignant passage from "The Coin" that encapsulates the protagonist’s obsession with cleanliness, providing listeners with deep insight into her character's psyche.

Yasmin Zaheer [04:12]: "Canals, inside my nose, around my ankles. Do I disgust you? I don't look dirty, do I?"

This passage illustrates the protagonist’s relentless battle against perceived dirtiness, symbolizing her broader struggle for control.

Cleanliness as a Metaphor for Control

The discussion shifts to the thematic significance of cleanliness in the novel. Alison asks Yasmin to elaborate on what this fixation represents.

Alison Stewart [07:13]: "What does this fixation do for her? This fixation on cleanliness?"

Yasmin Zaheer interprets cleanliness as a futile attempt to gain control over various aspects of life:

Yasmin Zaheer [07:19]: "Cleanliness is one of those things that you could fight your whole life and you will never win."

She explains that the protagonist uses cleanliness to assert control, a battle against the inherent chaos of the world.

The Character of Trenchcoat and Class Commentary

Alison introduces another character, Trenchcoat, prompting a discussion on class and societal perceptions.

Alison Stewart [07:57]: "Another character in the book is Trenchcoat... What does the character see in Trenchcoat, and what does he see in her?"

Yasmin Zaheer describes Trenchcoat as the antithesis of the protagonist, highlighting themes of class performance and societal expectations:

Yasmin Zaheer [08:23]: "He believes that class is a performance, that if you can pretend to be rich, you will eventually become rich..."

This dynamic underscores the novel’s critique of fashion elitism and classism.

Research and Critique of the Fashion Elite

Yasmin delves into her research process, including her experiences visiting Hermes stores to authentically portray the world of high fashion.

Yasmin Zaheer [10:44]: "I joined these schemes in a way."

She critiques the superficiality and absurdity of how status is perceived and manipulated through luxury brands.

Unorthodox Teaching Methods and Impact on Students

The protagonist’s role as a teacher introduces another layer to her complex character. Alison asks Yasmin about her unconventional teaching approaches.

Alison Stewart [11:14]: "Her lessons are unorthodox. Does she care about her job? Is she motivated about the job of being a teacher?"

Yasmin Zaheer explains that while the protagonist deeply cares for her students, her unhinged methods sometimes inadvertently harm them:

Yasmin Zaheer [11:36]: "She teaches them some more revolutionary material... she cares a lot about them, but she cares in a way so much and she's so unhinged that she does end up hurting them."

The Complexity of the Protagonist

In the concluding part of the interview, Alison probes into the moral ambiguity of the protagonist.

Alison Stewart [12:08]: "At the end, it becomes clear she's having some sort of mental crisis. How did you want us to take on feeling about her?"

Yasmin Zaheer acknowledges the protagonist's complexity, intentionally crafting a character who operates in moral gray areas:

Yasmin Zaheer [12:39]: "She's a complex character... I painted someone who is very in the gray zone, who is not exactly black and white."

She aims to challenge readers' perceptions and engage them with a multifaceted character.

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Conclusion

This episode of All Of It offers a deep dive into Yasmin Zaheer's "The Coin", exploring themes of control, class, and personal obsession through a richly developed protagonist. Yasmin's insights into her creative process, character development, and thematic intentions provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of her work and its place within contemporary cultural discussions.

Notable Quotes:

• Yasmin Zaheer [02:16]: "In fiction you really say your own truth."
• Yasmin Zaheer [07:19]: "Cleanliness is one of those things that you could fight your whole life and you will never win."
• Yasmin Zaheer [12:39]: "She's a complex character... I painted someone who is very in the gray zone, who is not exactly black and white."

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

Yasmine Zaire's debut novel, The Coin is a finalist for the 2025 Gotham Book Prize. In the novel, we don't know the narrator's name, but we do know that she's obsessed over hygiene and cleanliness. She wears gloves when riding the subway. She hems her pants so they don't brush against the pavement. When she returns home, she's meticulous about scrubbing her body with soap over and over again. She wears exclusively designer clothing using her inheritance. She does work as a teacher at an all boys middle school, serving mostly underprivileged students and offering them strange versions of lessons. One day the protagonist befriends a man that lures her into a scheme to sell luxury bags using false identities. As the story progresses, we witness her try her best to gain control of her body, her mind, her relationships, and failing beautifully. Yasmin joined me on pub day of her book last year and I started by asking her her background in biomedical engineering and what was the pivot point that made her turn to writing.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I think the engineering was the pivot point, actually. I've always wanted to be a writer. As soon as I learned how to read, I also started to write. I was copying children's books into my notebooks. I think in my 20s I was kind of a closeted fiction writer. I was a little bit too afraid to take it to the next level, but eventually I did and this is my big day.

[Alison Stewart]

I guess you also worked as a journalist before? Novelist before becoming a novelist, what did journalism teach you about writing fiction?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

They're very, very different. Journalism. It's a different version of the truth that you tell. In journalism, you tell the facts. You stay true to what is true for everyone. But in fiction you really say your own truth. And to me that is a much more interesting and attractive endeavor. And yeah, I'm more interested in subjective truths, I suppose, than factual ones.

[Alison Stewart]

The narrator whose name we don't know why did you decide to have a nameless protagonist?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Honestly, no name sounded right to me. I tried so many names and I couldn't find anything that sounded natural. Although usually when I'm writing, coming up with a name is something that is very Easy for me. Like, trench coat came to me immediately. There's a character called Curls came to me immediately. Sasha. The name just rolled off my fingers. But for the narrator, I couldn't find anything that sounded right. So I decided to keep her unnamed. And I think it's okay.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. What were you able to do creatively.

[Interviewee]

By keeping her unnamed?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I guess she stayed more undefined and more borderless and boundaryless. And a name is such a defining thing. I know, because I have a very. Yasmin is a very strong and defining name that I love. But I think by not giving her a name, I was able to keep her more raw, in a way.

[Interviewee]

Your character is obsessed with cleanliness, with hygiene. We're going to actually ask you to read a passage so people can understand what her cleanliness looks like. This is a passage from the Coin. My guest is Yasmin Zaheer.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

It's strange where we start stories. I might as well have started from.

[Narrator]

My birth if I was going to be proper and methodical. But the dirt is not a metaphor.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I really saw it in my ear.

[Narrator]

Canals, inside my nose, around my ankles. Do I disgust you? I don't look dirty, do I? One day, I began to notice that my body was dirtier than usual. It was a pleasant day in late September, and I went for a long walk after Franklin, wandering down some streets that were neither numbered nor lettered. I wasn't afraid of being lost. There was always a cab around the corner, and when I felt that I'd had enough, the sun was setting, I raised my hand in the air, and.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

A taxi took me home.

[Narrator]

I entered my apartment and decided to take a shower. I did this naturally and with no intentions. I was only doing what felt good. Before I got in the water, I remembered that I had a Turkish hammam.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Loofah in my suitcase.

[Narrator]

I brought it out, stepped into the shower, slipped my hand inside the loofah, and began scrubbing. The bathroom was small, the bathtub short. First, my right hand scrubbed my left arm. It burned. The water was hot. My heart began to race, and it.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Gave me the energy to continue.

[Narrator]

As I said, it was a pleasant day. And perhaps in my boredom, I had found a way to make it exciting. I closed my eyes and rubbed as hard and as fast as I could until my muscles began to stiffen, which wasn't long. I'd be exaggerating if I said it took more than 30 seconds. As you can see, I'm a small woman. I wait for others to open doors for me, and when I opened my eyes, I saw the miniature gray snakes. They fell to my feet, three or four of them. I looked at them and immediately I knew. I mean, I had seen them before, but not like this. A hard faced woman had once scrubbed me in a Turkish hammam. And I saw them there too, wiggling in the splash on marble. But the snakes of New York were scary and ghoulish. Like my own voice in the mouth of a total stranger.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I took the dirt to heart.

[Narrator]

I knew that the snakes were not just a material fact, but that they were a sign of something very bad, something terrifying that was happening to my body. The loofah was a harmless looking thing that in reality was wicked and rough. I continued. I scrubbed my entire body. I peeled off the dead skin. I told myself that this was a death that I could manage if only.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I worked hard enough, if I stayed clean and organized.

[Narrator]

But I had no stamina. And when I switched left to right, I did not see any snakes. My left side is not as strong, and you will see as I proceed that this is a condition of asymmetry. The left is cleaner, but it is weak. The right is strong and covered in filth.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Yasmin Zaheer. She's reading from her debut novel, the Coin. What does this fixation do for her? This fixation on cleanliness?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Cleanliness. What I understood from writing this book is that cleanliness is one of those things that you could fight your whole.

[Narrator]

Life and you will never win.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

It's an endless battle, because dirt is a very, very natural thing. And when I finished the book and I was in the process of editing it, and I was trying to understand what I had written and what its true meaning was, I understood that she is fighting against. She is trying to find control.

[Narrator]

And cleanliness is a way to assert.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Control on our bodies, on our homes, on our families, on the streets, on the outside world. And that that is a losing battle in a way, because you cannot control the world and its events and its chaos.

[Alison Stewart]

Another character in the book is Trenchcoat. You said the name came to you quite easily. He wears an expensive trench coat, hence the name. What does the character see in Trenchcoat, and what does he see in her?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

In a way, they're opposites of each other. Trenchcoat. He is. He has no home, he is poor.

[Narrator]

But he wears these expensive clothes and.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

He hangs around the expensive neighborhoods believing that in a way, class is a performance, that if you can pretend to be rich, you will eventually become rich, because he thinks that that's how wealth works. The narrator is born wealthy and is spending her time with these boys who are. Who come from underprivileged backgrounds. And they have just very different understandings to class and performance and what clothing can get you in the world.

[Interviewee]

They come together and they get. I'm not giving anything away. They get in this reselling of Birkin bags.

[Alison Stewart]

She's already.

[Interviewee]

She already has a Birkin.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Right. She inherited from her mother.

[Interviewee]

Right. So what does a Birkin mean to her before she gets into the swindling?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

So she says that before she had come to New York because the character has just moved to New York from Palestine. And she says that the Birkin had never meant a thing to her.

[Narrator]

It was just the bag that her mother carried.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

And suddenly she comes to New York and she understands that a bag can have power. A bag can open doors for you. A bag can make women turn their head and look at you in a way that she had never experienced before.

[Interviewee]

So they begin this swindling operation with Hermes in Paris. What motivates her to start swindling? She could have said no.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I think she's unsure of her. Of her life, of where she's going with it, of what she believes. So she's willing to suspend her own ideology for a while and try to go the trench coat way. And the trench coat way is to basically fake it till you make it. So I think she's interested in and going into the Hermes stores pretending to be this very old money, classy woman from the old world and testing her status in these stores.

[Interviewee]

Have you ever been in an Hermes store?

[Narrator]

I did.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I did the research, of course.

[Interviewee]

It's amazing. It's amazing the way they will treat you, depending on how they view you.

[Narrator]

Exactly.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

And that is the absurdity of it. And I think that is also the critique that is in the book, that there's a critique of fashion and of the elites and of classism. And I went to these Hermes stores. I joined these schemes in a way.

[Interviewee]

Oh, did you?

[Narrator]

I did.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

And I had tried many, many times and I never succeeded.

[Interviewee]

My guest is Yasmin Zahir. The name of the book is the Coin. It's her debut novel. She does teach.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Question mark.

[Interviewee]

Her lessons are unorthodox. We use that. Does she care about her job? Is she motivated about the job of being a teacher?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Yeah, she cares a lot about her students. So much so that instead of following the syllabus, she makes up her own unorthodox syllabus where she teaches them some more revolutionary material. She teaches them how to dress well as because that is one way to counter racism. She cares a lot about them, but she cares in a way so much and she's so unhinged that she does end up hurting them.

[Alison Stewart]

At the end, it becomes clear she's having some sort of mental crisis. How did you want us to take on feeling about her? Is it coming? Yeah. How would you want us to feel about her as she slowly, slowly descends towards the end?

[Yasmin Zaheer]

I think she's not a very likable character. That's what I get from a lot of people.

[Alison Stewart]

I don't know if I say likable, but she's complex.

[Yasmin Zaheer]

Yeah, I think she has redeeming parts. I think when we see her love for her students, her very obnoxious elitism and sometimes also racism becomes more palatable. But yeah, she's a complex character. And I think that's part of what I intended to do is to paint someone who is very in the gray zone, who is not exactly black and white. And to me, it was interesting to challenge myself on some of the moral boundaries of the character.

[Interviewee]

That was author Yasmin Zaheer speaking with.

[Alison Stewart]

Me about her debut novel, the Coin.

[Interviewee]

The novel is a finalist for the.

[Alison Stewart]

2025 Gotham Book Prize. On the show tomorrow, we have Noah Wylie.

[Interviewee]

He's back the er, but this time in Pittsburgh. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.

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