A Faith Ringgold Painting Travels From Rikers to the Brooklyn Museum in New Documentary

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "A Faith Ringgold Painting Travels From Rikers to the Brooklyn Museum in New Documentary"

Introduction In the February 6, 2025 episode of All Of It, hosted by Alison Stewart on WNYC, the spotlight is on a poignant intersection of art, justice, and activism through the lens of a new documentary titled "Paint Me A Road out of Here." This episode delves deep into the journey of Faith Ringgold’s influential painting, its significance within the incarcerated women's community at Rikers Island, and the ongoing efforts to restore and relocate the artwork to the Brooklyn Museum.

Faith Ringgold and the Painting Faith Ringgold, a celebrated Harlem-born artist and a staunch advocate for Black artists, left an indelible mark not only in the art world but also in the fight for justice within the prison system. According to Alison Stewart, Ringgold was dedicated to uplifting incarcerated women at Rikers Island during the 1970s. She created a painting intended to inspire and bring hope to these women. However, the painting was later painted over, prompting Ringgold to embark on a decades-long mission to restore it.

The Documentary: "Paint Me A Road out of Here" The documentary "Paint Me A Road out of Here" serves as both a tribute and a catalyst for change. Directed by Kathryn Gund, the film not only chronicles the restoration of Ringgold's painting but also features contemporary artists like Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter, who continue Ringgold’s legacy by engaging with incarcerated women through art.

Interviews with Kathryn Gund and Mary Baxter

• Kathryn Gund brings her expertise as the documentary’s director, providing insights into the motivations behind the film and the collaborative process with Mary Baxter.
• Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter, an artist featured in the documentary, shares her transformative experiences both as a former inmate and as an artist working to instill hope through creative expression.

Art and Incarceration: Themes Explored The painting, known as "For the Women's House," symbolizes the resilience and aspirations of incarcerated women. As Mary Baxter explains, Faith Ringgold initially struggled to have her work respected and ultimately dedicated this piece specifically for the women at Rikers Island. When asked about the painting's significance, Baxter states:

“...for me, this painting really became a symbol of change. And the only way we could have any change is through art. Otherwise, we're sort of wallowing in this nightmare.” [02:42]

The documentary highlights how art serves as a vital outlet for those confined, offering a means to envision a different future and cope with the harsh realities of incarceration.

Contemporary Relevance The episode contextualizes the artwork within today's socio-political climate. Alison Stewart references the significant growth in the incarcerated female population:

“The Sentencing Project said the number of incarcerated women in America grew by 585% from 1980 to 2022.” [05:19]

Mary Baxter reflects on this escalation, noting:

“...women aren't treated with dignity no more than they were then, you know, as they are now. When we think about the overturning of Roe vs. Wade... I see that, you know, it's just so timely and just so present.” [05:45]

These discussions underscore the enduring struggle for women's rights and autonomy, emphasizing the painting's relevance in advocating for justice and equality.

The Restoration Effort A central narrative of the documentary is the restoration and relocation of Ringgold’s painting. Initially displayed at Rikers Island, the painting was whitewashed and neglected, leading to Kathryn Gund and Mary Baxter's concerted efforts to restore it. Their work highlights the systemic challenges in acknowledging and preserving art that holds significant cultural and emotional value for marginalized communities.

Mary Baxter shares a personal account of her time incarcerated and the pivotal role art played in her survival:

“...leaning into poetry, leaning into visual art, and just trying to reimagine myself outside of those circumstances. It was a very critical part in my ultimate survival.” [08:22]

Her dedication to bringing art back into the lives of incarcerated women is a testament to the healing power of creativity.

Community and Systemic Challenges The documentary also addresses the resistance from the city's correctional system in relinquishing the painting. Despite public support and the painting’s symbolic importance, authorities remained hesitant to transfer ownership to the Brooklyn Museum. Mary Baxter explains:

“...the painting remains on parole. The painting is on a 10-year loan to the Brook...is still owned by Rikers and determined by the design commission.” [21:13]

This reluctance highlights ongoing systemic barriers in recognizing and supporting the intersection of art and rehabilitation within the prison system.

Conclusion The episode of All Of It masterfully intertwines the legacy of Faith Ringgold with contemporary efforts to restore and honor her work. Through engaging interviews with Kathryn Gund and Mary Baxter, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the transformative power of art in advocating for justice and fostering hope within oppressive systems. The documentary "Paint Me A Road out of Here" not only preserves Ringgold’s vision but also empowers a new generation of artists and activists to continue the struggle for meaningful change.

As Alison Stewart aptly summarizes:

“...our guests are Mary Baxter, she's an artist. And Kathryn Gunn, she's a director. We're talking about their new documentary, Paint Me A Road out of Here...” [16:08]

This episode is a compelling exploration of how art can transcend barriers, challenge injustices, and illuminate paths toward liberation.

Transcript

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[Listener]

Listener supported.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc, I'm Alison Stewart. For Black History Month, we're focusing on the past and present of Harlem. And we continue now with one of the most celebrated Harlem born artists. When Faith Ringgold passed away last year at the age of 93, the New York Times described her as a champion of black artists. And in the 1970s, Ringgold was also a champion of incarcerated women on Rikers Island. A new documentary tells the story of a painting Faith Ringgold made to lift the spirits of women at Rikers. But after it was painted over, Faith began a decades long journey to restore it. Now the film also features a current day artist who hopes to bring arc to incarcerated women, an experience she knows well. It's called Paint Me A Road out of Here. The film presents some of the last on camera interviews Ringgold ever gave. Listen to a clip when Faith and her daughter Michelle speak about why she wanted the painting back.

[Faith Ringgold]

If you give a donation of a work of art that you made to a public institution and they cannot keep it or do harm to it, which these people did, do they have a right to continue to have it? You're not gonna say, oh, would you.

[Listener]

Please kindly restore the painting and put it someplace where the prisoners can see it. Give me my painting. That's what you say. That's what an activist says.

[Faith Ringgold]

So that's what she said.

[Kathryn Gund]

Paint Me a Road out of Here.

[Alison Stewart]

Premieres tomorrow at Film Forum.

[Kathryn Gund]

Director Kathryn Gund is with me now. Hi, Kathryn.

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

Hi. It's great to be here.

[Kathryn Gund]

And also artist Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter, whose story is featured in the documentary, is here as well. Hey, Mary.

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

Hey.

[Kathryn Gund]

So let's I want to start with this painting called for the Women's House. For anybody interested in seeing it, we put our painting, the painting on our Instagram stories of it. Wnyc. Katherine, what was Faith's original inspiration and her intention for this piece?

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

Well, it's a wonderful story because Faith was the recipient of a small public arts grant in 1970 and she went at the time to try to give her painting away to cuny other places and people did not respect her work and actually refused it and she decided to go to the jail at Rikers island and make a new piece and dedicate it for the women there. And when she asked one of them, what would you like me to paint you, that will be uplifting and affirmative, one of them said, paint me a road out of here. And when we read and knew that story, we knew that was going to be the title. It's so profound and so immediate, and I think people really get it. And it, to me, really links art and justice and shows us that despite the urgency of so many issues and so many problems right now and challenges and listening to your show at any time, we turn on the news that there also is something about a place for art during catastrophe. A place for art. In fact, we can't even survive with a catastrophe without it. And so for me, this painting really became a symbol of change. And the only way we could have any change is through art. Otherwise, we're sort of wallowing in this nightmare. So we. She then made the painting and put it. They put it up in the jail, and it remained there on and off for 50 years. And that's the story of the film.

[Kathryn Gund]

Mary, when you first saw this painting for the Women's House, what was your reaction? What was your impression?

[Listener]

I would say my first response was, how prophetic, how profound to, you know, in 1971, when there's planing what, you know, first, you know, originated on Rikers island and, you know, woman that's featured inside of the painting. Each archetype, they fulfilled a role that wasn't allowed, not only for women that were incarcerated, also women on the outside. So seeing those gender roles count so early, it. And then fold in the present. I mean, all of those archetypes have passed except for a female president, but we had a vice president, so I think it's just a. To just how prolific Faith was and how timely she still remains.

[Alison Stewart]

For the Women's House was painted at the beginning of Americans prison population increasing significantly. The Sentencing Project said the number of incarcerated women in America grew by 585% from 1980 to 2022. Mary, how do you think this changes our understanding of the piece?

[Listener]

I think in a lot of ways, it shows us that women aren't treated with dignity no more than they were then, you know, as they are now. When we think about the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. Right. And, you know, those women's autonomy, I mean, even now with this new administration and, you know, this outright refusal to, you know, deem women equal. Right. I see that, you know, it's just. It's just so timely and just so present.

[Alison Stewart]

Katherine, in your telling of the story.

[Kathryn Gund]

Of for the Women's House, why did you want to feature Mary? Why did you want Mary in your story?

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

Yeah, well, it actually goes right from what she was saying, which is that this painting didn't show people incarcerated what they could do when they got outside. It really looked at how incarceration, whether of the mind or systemically, it affects us all. And so it was even things people on the outside who think of themselves as free couldn't do, Couldn't be bus drivers, couldn't be professional basketball players, president, et cetera. And when we. We wanted to honor the idea of really painting the women erode out of there and not just painting the painting erode out. And that is where the genesis of Mary's participation in the effort to get the painting out came in. Because we said, okay, well, the painting should be moved. It's done. What it can do now, there's been 50 years of the drug war, of the war on gangs and all these things they call it, that just skyrocketed, as you said, into mass incarceration. And so people have had generations of their family put inside and spend time, and things are very different than they were now 54 or five years ago. And so what we wanted to do was say, here we know the power of art in this movement, in this effort inside a facility like this. And we wanted to say, here's somebody who can do a new, more updated, and keep that movement going so that Mary would work with the women inside, make new artwork that would continue the effort to paint the women erode out of there.

[Kathryn Gund]

Mary, you tell your story in the film. I'm just going to give a brief version of it. You were incarcerated in 2007. You were seven months pregnant, nine months pregnant. Excuse me. You had to give birth while handcuffed to your hospital bed. By the way, you since been granted clemency. What did art mean to you at that time that you were incarcerated?

[Listener]

I mean, it meant. I mean, it was everything. It was literally, when I think about those moments, being tortured, right, for over a week. You know, it started with the 43 hours in labor, but I remained handcuffed to the bed. My stay in the hospital after the emergency C section, and then placed in segregation, which is a place that incarcerated people are when. Not that you're a danger, but you or more vulnerable, right to harm. So people that are raped, people that surgeries, people that are abused are taken from one traumatic event to the next. So for me, I just remember just leaning into poetry, leaning into visual art, and just trying to reimagine myself outside of those circumstances. It was very critical part in my ultimate survival.

[Alison Stewart]

Early in the film, we see your return to the Philly prison where you were held, and you're organizing art classes for the women there. What did you notice about these women's reactions to art?

[Listener]

I noticed that they were all in. They were rejuvenated, they were energized, they were inspired. Right. And, you know, when I originally went in to Riverside Corrections, the prison where I was incarcerated at, you know, I didn't have any restrictions. You know, they weren't bound to, you know, knowing how to paint or knowing how to draw. I opened it up for creative writing, for poetry, for so. So. And it felt like real, tangible for them. And I think the first project that came out of that was an exhibition at the African American Museum, where they actually got an opportunity to publish their own creative writing, which was a joy. And it was in collaboration with another Philadelphia poet, sister friend of mine, Lara Speck, Nina Ball. And, yeah, it was an incredible opportunity to be of service and to present women with, you know, I wish I would have had while I was in there. Right. People need hope. They need to know that tomorrow gets better.

[Alison Stewart]

We're speaking about their new documentary, Paint Me a Road out of Here, about an effort to move a Faith Ringgold.

[Kathryn Gund]

Painting out of Rikers Islands.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are artists Mary Baxter and Katherine Gund. Katherine, you interview former Rikers island guards.

[Kathryn Gund]

And women, women who were formerly incarcerated, I should say, and you do so.

[Alison Stewart]

At the Brooklyn Museum, like, right in.

[Kathryn Gund]

Front of the painting.

[Alison Stewart]

Why did you want them to see.

[Kathryn Gund]

That painting in that setting?

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

It's a wonderful question to put both the correction officers, people who are working in the system and often also traumatized by the system, and people who were formerly incarcerated there. And they're in different scenes. So I'll start with the correction officer. She was the one responsible for this painting still existing. She went in every day, loved this painting, and one day after it being there for25.5 years, noticed it wasn't on the wall and started asking around. Nobody knew. And it turned out it had been whitewashed. And that becomes a big part of the story. But she's the one who contacted Faith Ringgold and got that painting out. And you realize that she actually is also being painted a road out of there, out of a system that's so oppressive for everyone involved. It became important to us to include. There are a couple of the previous commissioners of the Department of Corrections and Barbara Drummond, the correction officer who saved the paint, so that we could show that it is a community effort to make the changes that are necessary to transform that system. The three women that come in and meet with Mary in front of the painting, it was vital that they actually see the painting because the context made such a difference for them. And they had been next to this painting in and out. Some of them had been in and out 18, 19 times. One of them literally walks up to the painting at the beginning of the scene and says, oh, this is what it looks like. Because there was not the elements there that were necessary for her to be able to see it and engage with it and understand it and let it wash over her and let it help her heal and transform and be inspired and carry on with the hope that Mary's alluding to. And so they say they have this incredibly frank and I think, instructive conversation about what does it mean to see this painting. And one of them says, it doesn't mean mean anything to me if I'd seen it in there. And the other one says, but if I'd been able to engage with it, if I'd been able to actually look at it. And you think those are incompatible, the ability to be in these jail facilities as they are now and be able to do what we would know is necessary to engage, which is to return many times to the painting, to be able to sit quietly in front of it for extended periods of time, to be able to talk with other people who've had the same experience. None of those things were possible inside and then suddenly there. They could do that on the outside. And actually what they came up with reinforced our belief in Mary's participation in the project, which was that they said, you know, this painting is 50 years old. It needs to be updated. It needs to reflect what's happened in the last 50 years. It's a wonderful painting, but it's not serving the original purpose anymore.

[Alison Stewart]

We'll have more with a documentary.

[Kathryn Gund]

Paint Me a Road out of here.

[Alison Stewart]

After a quick break, this is all of it.

[Listener]

If it's time for you to say goodbye to your car, truck, boat, motorcycle or rv, consider donating it to wnyc. We'll turn the proceeds from the sale of your vehicle or watercraft into the in depth news and programming that keeps our community informed. Donating is easy, the pickup is free and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn more at wnyc.org/car@radiolab.

[Alison Stewart]

We love Nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

[Listener]

But.

[Alison Stewart]

But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers and hopefully make you see the world anew. Radiolab Adventures on the Edge of what We Think, Think we know. Wherever you get your podcasts, you are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are Mary Baxter, she's an artist. And Kathryn Gunn, she's a director. We're talking about their new documentary, Paint Me A Road out of Here, about an effort to move a Faith Ringgold painting out of Rikers and into a museum. The film premieres at Film Forum tomorrow. We got this text that says, I saw this movie at the Monclair Film Festival and liked it very much. The connection between the two women was also fascinating and wonderful to see two very strong women artists with a similar mission, ultimately. And I learned so much experience, so much from their experiences of both women. Wanted to share it with friends after seeing it at the film festival, but couldn't find it. Well, they can go to the film festival, Mary. You got to meet Faith Ringgold. Tell me about that.

[Listener]

Oh, my God. Totally fangirling. You know, I had first come in contact with Faith's work as the student at Community College of Philadelphia and later got an opportunity to see her work die at the Barnes, and, you know, just fell in love with the radical nature, the upfront, just in your face. And really the importance of telling your own story. Right. How important it is to sidestep whatever society has projected on you, stereotypes or whatever have you, and be authentic and unapologetic in telling your truth. And then I would say the other thing that Faith just inspired me with was just her humor, you know, her care, and just her relentlessness to show up as her full self. And that really just gave me the momentum and the affirmation to know that my work was going in the right direction.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, let's listen to a moment from.

[Kathryn Gund]

The film Paint Me a Road out of Here, where you and Faith Ringgold are at a house in New Jersey. Let's listen.

[Faith Ringgold]

Well, thank you for coming here and spreading yourself out and keeping everything going. There's a lot that still needs to be done, and there's nobody to do it but us. Everybody has to make that contribution. Cause you're probably the only one that sees the need for it.

[Listener]

Yeah, there was a Button it said, I was gonna fight for liberation, but I didn't get the grant.

[Faith Ringgold]

I didn't get the grant. Oh, my goodness. That's funny.

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

Wow.

[Faith Ringgold]

And you're not gonna get it either, by the way. You're not gonna get it.

[Kathryn Gund]

Those interviews are so great. Katherine, when you approached Faith Ringgold about this project, what was her reaction? What questions did she.

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

It was wonderful because the painting had gone out to the Brooklyn Museum for. We wanted a revolution. Black women artists. 68 to 88 and had. Or 69 to 89, sorry, had. They knew how to get it in and out, and she had always wanted it to stay out after it had been whitewashed, and they got it restored, and then the jail took it back. So we knew she wanted it out. But I didn't even know about the painting till I got to Rikers and saw it one day. And I thought, what is this doing here? And it was in a back hall. And, you know, so it was all motivated. The getting the painting out and making the film sort of fell in together at the same time. But it was all motivated by Faith's desire for that painting to move to a different environment so that it could keep doing its work. And she, you know, she was really excited about it, but she just said, get it out. And then when I finally tracked down with private investigator, the commission, the correction officer, the first thing the correction officer said was, how is Faith doing? And it, you know, it became very clear that she has that kind of an impact on people, that Mary is in that scene so beautifully and that she's very collaborative and that she's in an ongoing conversation, and Mary and I are in. In conversation. And you're right. It is our film. We. We worked on it together. Mary has an executive producer credit on it, as well as being a participant was integral to making decisions and choices. And filmmaking is always collaborative, but not always this collaborative and not always something that honors the participant's point of view. I think it was a real opportunity to work with Faith, to continue that conversation. And then the scene you played, I love, because it ends with Mary saying, what was it like when you had to travel? I have a kid, and I have to travel, and I miss the kid, and I miss the painting, and I miss my work. And. And Faith just looks at her and says, you remember, I didn't have that. I went to my studio, and then I went back to my family, and no one was asking me to come speak or teach or show my work or, you know, nobody was inviting me anywhere. Or even recognizing my work. And I am so eternally grateful to Faith for her faith in this project and for making the painting in the first place. And I do like to let people know that she did get to see the finished film before she passed.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, that's lovely, Katherine. As you're looking back, now that you've finished and you're touring with it on the circuit, what was the reluctance of the city of the Rikers to just, you know what, take the painting? Go ahead. Why were they so reluctant?

[Mary Enoch Elizabeth Baxter]

Well, it's a great question and there's not totally an answer because the painting remains on parole. The painting is on a 10 year loan to the Brook. It is still owned by Rikers and determined. Its fate is determined by the design commission. And we'll see what happens. I think people in the system are seeing the power of art maybe in ways that they hadn't before. And now they're making these small borough based jails. And I know they're interested in having artwork in those places. I don't understand always the reasons or the meaning behind that. But there's a beautiful moment when Mary goes back to the Philly detention center that she was in and we find out that women had been painting now and writing affirmations in their cells. And they bring us into one. And the man, Mary says, really? They're doing what I was doing with them. And he says, yeah, one person was having some trouble one time. We said, what can we do? And she said, just give me some colors. And I think it's just there was this moment when I think the painting was seen as more valuable than it had been seen earlier. And I think that's when the city was like, well, we're never going to give this up because this is ours. I mean, I don't know accountability. They're all like, we don't get to decide. That's not true. You know, who, who gets to decide? What is the urgency to keep it out and to get women out? And I really can't answer the question because they still haven't agreed to give it either to Faith now to her daughters or. Or to the Brooklyn Museum, which is a museum that's a pay as you wish museum. It's in an important zip code that has many people and family members who have gone to Rikers. It's a place that is accessible and they know how to take care of it. And I believe Faith really wanted it out. That was what she said. So we will keep using the film to help educate people about the real story behind what happened here and why it should not go back.

[Kathryn Gund]

The film is called Paint Me a Road out of Here. It premieres at Film Forum tomorrow. Thanks so much to Kathryn Gund and to Mary Baxter. Thanks for being with us. We really appreciate it.

[Listener]

Thanks for having us.

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