A Film Set in Natchez, MS Shows a Town Living Its Past

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: A Film Set in Natchez, MS Shows a Town Living Its Past
Date: January 20, 2026
Guest: Susanna Herbert, director of the documentary "Natchez"
Theme: Exploring how the town of Natchez, Mississippi, confronts its history of slavery, the perpetuation of myth through tourism, and how individuals—both black and white—navigate and narrate this contested past.

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the award-winning documentary "Natchez," directed by Susanna Herbert, who grew up in Memphis, Tennessee. The film examines how the picturesque southern town of Natchez presents its antebellum legacy to tourists through events like the "Pilgrimage" while often glossing over or romanticizing the realities of slavery. The conversation explores the complicated interplay of race, memory, identity, commerce, and personal reckoning as residents confront the true history behind their beautiful surroundings.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Focus on Natchez?

Personal Motivation: Susanna Herbert was unsettled by attending a wedding on a plantation, which inspired her to investigate how plantation sites are used for entertainment and profit today, often by white people (03:20).
Myth and Reality: Upon visiting Natchez, Herbert was struck by its beauty and by how much pain and horror linger just beneath the surface (03:32).

"I was just so struck by the beauty of Natchez... but also this, like, pain and horror that was so right under the surface." — Susanna Herbert [03:32]

The Pilgrimage and the Tourism Industry

Pilgrimage: Natchez's "Pilgrimage" is an annual tradition where homeowners open antebellum mansions for tours, offering a highly curated and romanticized version of history (04:48).
“One-Sided” Narratives: Tours rarely address the realities of slavery, often using words like "servant" or "help," and perpetuating myths about the "happy slave" (05:15).

"They use a lot of language that dehumanizes people and the experiences of the enslaved." — Susanna Herbert [05:15]
Tour Demographics: The audience is largely white, older, and seeking the romance of "Old South" grandeur, influenced heavily by popular culture such as "Gone with the Wind" (05:41).

Character Studies: Complex Intersections of Identity

David Garner:
- A gay white man, proud mansion owner, and garden club member, David embodies the complexities of being both marginalized and an oppressor. Through him, the film explores how insidious racism underlies southern hospitality (07:06, 08:49).
- "Just because you can be oppressed doesn't mean you're not an oppressor." — Susanna Herbert [08:49]
Rev, the Black Tour Guide:
- Rev offers tours centered on the contributions and suffering of enslaved people, a perspective largely missing from mainstream tours (09:09).
- He educates visitors at the "Forks of the Road"—the second-largest slave market in the US—aiming to foreground forgotten history (09:53).
- Community reactions are mixed: while some residents support his work, local business owners often oppose it out of resentment and fear of confronting the past (10:28–10:54).
- "Why do we need to remember that? Because people don't want to acknowledge that it affects us today." — Susanna Herbert [11:16]
Tracy:
- Once aspiring to the Southern Belle ideal, Tracy's transformation over the film, especially after taking Rev’s tour, highlights the power of learning a more complete history and the emotional cost of facing uncomfortable truths (13:17).
Garden Club and Membership:
- Originated during the Great Depression, the white-led Garden Club leveraged the mythic "old South" to create a tourist industry, thus gaining cultural power (14:07).
- The inclusion of the first Black woman in the Garden Club, who owns and restored former slave quarters, represents an attempt to broaden the narrative. However, her efforts come with emotional burdens and conflicts over historical representation (15:29, 16:19).
- "When she's feeling like she can't do it anymore... she goes out on the porch and she remembers and says the names of the enslaved who lived in her house... That gives her strength." — Susanna Herbert [16:19]

Filmmaking Choices and Visual Language

Cinematographic Approach:
- The film mimics the lush, romantic look of "Gone with the Wind," using vintage lenses to highlight the seductiveness of Natchez's beauty before peeling back the facade to reveal harder truths (11:51, 12:24).
- "We wanted it to feel like a fiction film... But then... slowly peel away the layers and show you the unvarnished version of it." — Susanna Herbert [12:24]

Struggles with Historical Memory and National Politics

Local Conflict Over Memory:
- The film captures ongoing disputes over how to present the slave quarters and recount Natchez’s past, reflecting the broader national struggle for control over historical narratives (16:46, 17:00).
- "This is the crystallization of the film... how in America, we are constantly fighting over how the story of this country is told." — Susanna Herbert [17:00]
Current Political Climate:
- Despite renewed focus on “American pride” and resistance to examining darker histories, the National Park Service in Natchez is actively working to commemorate sites like Forks of the Road (17:44–18:25).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Rev on Historical Tours:

"So when you looking at these houses, you going through Natchez, understand that they were built by slaves. And that's the piece of the history that you don't get in the antebellum houses. They use the word servant or help, you know, but these are slaves." — Rev [01:36]
David Garner’s Perspective:

"This was Dr. Duncan's servant. That was their favorite servant. He became the overseer of this house. They taught him to read and write. Those are his actual writings right here. And back then, it was against the law... Dr. Duncan, he was good to his people." — David Garner [01:53]
Herbert on Film’s Visual Style:

"We wanted it to feel like a fiction film. We took a lot of cues from Gone with the Wind... we shot the film on a tripod and with vintage prime lenses from the 60s." — Susanna Herbert [12:24]
On Living with History:

"She goes out on the porch and she remembers and says the names of the enslaved who lived in her house and remembers everything that they worked against and fought for, and that gives her strength to keep going on." — Susanna Herbert [16:19]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:30] Introduction of Natchez’s divided history.
[01:36] Rev contrasts his tours with the garden club approach.
[02:27] Introduction of Susanna Herbert and her background.
[03:20] Motivation for making the film—plantation wedding experience.
[04:48] What is the Pilgrimage?
[05:15] How tours misrepresent history.
[07:06] Exploring David Garner’s character.
[09:09] Rev’s unique approach to tours.
[09:53] The significance of Forks of the Road.
[11:51] The film’s visual style and intention.
[13:17] Tracy’s transformation narrative.
[14:07] Origin and role of the Garden Club.
[15:29] First Black garden club member and her mission.
[16:46] Conflicts within the garden club over history.
[17:44] Impact of current politics on Natchez’s historical reckoning.
[18:25] National Park Service’s ongoing commemoration efforts.

Conclusion

This episode offers a profound and nuanced look at how Natchez, Mississippi, wrestles with its past and the enduring legacies of slavery. Through Herbert’s personal journey, compelling characters, and thoughtful filmmaking choices, listeners are invited to reflect on whose stories are told, who tells them, and how the struggle over history is never merely academic—it shapes communities, identities, and futures.

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Focus on Natchez?

Personal Motivation: Susanna Herbert was unsettled by attending a wedding on a plantation, which inspired her to investigate how plantation sites are used for entertainment and profit today, often by white people (03:20).
Myth and Reality: Upon visiting Natchez, Herbert was struck by its beauty and by how much pain and horror linger just beneath the surface (03:32).

"I was just so struck by the beauty of Natchez... but also this, like, pain and horror that was so right under the surface." — Susanna Herbert [03:32]

The Pilgrimage and the Tourism Industry

Pilgrimage: Natchez's "Pilgrimage" is an annual tradition where homeowners open antebellum mansions for tours, offering a highly curated and romanticized version of history (04:48).
“One-Sided” Narratives: Tours rarely address the realities of slavery, often using words like "servant" or "help," and perpetuating myths about the "happy slave" (05:15).

"They use a lot of language that dehumanizes people and the experiences of the enslaved." — Susanna Herbert [05:15]
Tour Demographics: The audience is largely white, older, and seeking the romance of "Old South" grandeur, influenced heavily by popular culture such as "Gone with the Wind" (05:41).

Character Studies: Complex Intersections of Identity

David Garner:
- A gay white man, proud mansion owner, and garden club member, David embodies the complexities of being both marginalized and an oppressor. Through him, the film explores how insidious racism underlies southern hospitality (07:06, 08:49).
- "Just because you can be oppressed doesn't mean you're not an oppressor." — Susanna Herbert [08:49]
Rev, the Black Tour Guide:
- Rev offers tours centered on the contributions and suffering of enslaved people, a perspective largely missing from mainstream tours (09:09).
- He educates visitors at the "Forks of the Road"—the second-largest slave market in the US—aiming to foreground forgotten history (09:53).
- Community reactions are mixed: while some residents support his work, local business owners often oppose it out of resentment and fear of confronting the past (10:28–10:54).
- "Why do we need to remember that? Because people don't want to acknowledge that it affects us today." — Susanna Herbert [11:16]
Tracy:
- Once aspiring to the Southern Belle ideal, Tracy's transformation over the film, especially after taking Rev’s tour, highlights the power of learning a more complete history and the emotional cost of facing uncomfortable truths (13:17).
Garden Club and Membership:
- Originated during the Great Depression, the white-led Garden Club leveraged the mythic "old South" to create a tourist industry, thus gaining cultural power (14:07).
- The inclusion of the first Black woman in the Garden Club, who owns and restored former slave quarters, represents an attempt to broaden the narrative. However, her efforts come with emotional burdens and conflicts over historical representation (15:29, 16:19).
- "When she's feeling like she can't do it anymore... she goes out on the porch and she remembers and says the names of the enslaved who lived in her house... That gives her strength." — Susanna Herbert [16:19]

Filmmaking Choices and Visual Language

Cinematographic Approach:
- The film mimics the lush, romantic look of "Gone with the Wind," using vintage lenses to highlight the seductiveness of Natchez's beauty before peeling back the facade to reveal harder truths (11:51, 12:24).
- "We wanted it to feel like a fiction film... But then... slowly peel away the layers and show you the unvarnished version of it." — Susanna Herbert [12:24]

Struggles with Historical Memory and National Politics

Local Conflict Over Memory:
- The film captures ongoing disputes over how to present the slave quarters and recount Natchez’s past, reflecting the broader national struggle for control over historical narratives (16:46, 17:00).
- "This is the crystallization of the film... how in America, we are constantly fighting over how the story of this country is told." — Susanna Herbert [17:00]
Current Political Climate:
- Despite renewed focus on “American pride” and resistance to examining darker histories, the National Park Service in Natchez is actively working to commemorate sites like Forks of the Road (17:44–18:25).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Rev on Historical Tours:

"So when you looking at these houses, you going through Natchez, understand that they were built by slaves. And that's the piece of the history that you don't get in the antebellum houses. They use the word servant or help, you know, but these are slaves." — Rev [01:36]
David Garner’s Perspective:

"This was Dr. Duncan's servant. That was their favorite servant. He became the overseer of this house. They taught him to read and write. Those are his actual writings right here. And back then, it was against the law... Dr. Duncan, he was good to his people." — David Garner [01:53]
Herbert on Film’s Visual Style:

"We wanted it to feel like a fiction film. We took a lot of cues from Gone with the Wind... we shot the film on a tripod and with vintage prime lenses from the 60s." — Susanna Herbert [12:24]
On Living with History:

"She goes out on the porch and she remembers and says the names of the enslaved who lived in her house and remembers everything that they worked against and fought for, and that gives her strength to keep going on." — Susanna Herbert [16:19]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:30] Introduction of Natchez’s divided history.
[01:36] Rev contrasts his tours with the garden club approach.
[02:27] Introduction of Susanna Herbert and her background.
[03:20] Motivation for making the film—plantation wedding experience.
[04:48] What is the Pilgrimage?
[05:15] How tours misrepresent history.
[07:06] Exploring David Garner’s character.
[09:09] Rev’s unique approach to tours.
[09:53] The significance of Forks of the Road.
[11:51] The film’s visual style and intention.
[13:17] Tracy’s transformation narrative.
[14:07] Origin and role of the Garden Club.
[15:29] First Black garden club member and her mission.
[16:46] Conflicts within the garden club over history.
[17:44] Impact of current politics on Natchez’s historical reckoning.
[18:25] National Park Service’s ongoing commemoration efforts.

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Summary

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Focus on Natchez?

The Pilgrimage and the Tourism Industry

Character Studies: Complex Intersections of Identity

Filmmaking Choices and Visual Language

Struggles with Historical Memory and National Politics

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Conclusion

Transcript

Summary

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Focus on Natchez?

The Pilgrimage and the Tourism Industry

Character Studies: Complex Intersections of Identity

Filmmaking Choices and Visual Language

Struggles with Historical Memory and National Politics

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Conclusion