Host/Interviewer (3:13)

When we originally had this discussion, we invited listeners to call in with their stories about, well, being dumped. But since this is an encore presentation, we won't be able to take your calls today again. The book is called what to do when youn Get A Guide to Unbreaking youg Heart. Here's my conversation with author Susie Hopkins and her daughter, illustrator Hallie Bateman.

Alison Stewart (3:40)

Susie, you wrote this book inspired by your story, but you really aimed it to be helpful to anyone who's been broken up with. What did you see as your the really first hump to get over after being dumped?

Susie Hopkins (3:54)

The first hump to get over was just the sheer shock of it. It was after a 30 year marriage and in one day I learned that my husband was go. He had settled into developing a relationship with someone else and it was done. And unbeknownst to me, so the shock of that took honestly months just to accept that that was the reality. And all along the path I said, am I the slowest person ever to learn to accept something that is clearly intellectually I know has just happened? And it was that disconnect that I found really the hard first.

Host/Interviewer (4:32)

Humphrey, Halle, what were some of your first thoughts when you decided to join this project with your mom?

Alison Stewart (4:38)

I was so happy that my mom was deciding to embark on the book. It was about three years after the breakup that she made that decision. And we just knew we were gonna do it together. And you know, this was my parents divorce. And so it really rocked our entire family. And getting to explore and dissect and look at the whole thing with my mom was so appealing to me. I mean it sounds like depressing or something, but it wasn't. It was this thing that I. We both were like, yeah, let's do this book. And it felt like guaranteed catharsis of some sort because, you know, as artists and writers, that's what it is. And so I was excited.

Alison Stewart (5:26)

What questions did you have, Susie, about Hallie being involved?

Susie Hopkins (5:32)

Well, we had done a book, so we had already worked together on a book and what to do when you're.

Alison Stewart (5:40)

What to do when I'm gone.

Susie Hopkins (5:41)

I can't though. I can't remember what to do when I'm gone. So we had. And that, to me, was an accidental book about the loss of your mother and dealing with the grief from that. So I hadn't expected to write a book. And I guess the. The challenge was having Hallie witness my healing process. Very difficult. As a parent, you want to just set the strong example of soldiering through. And I really had a tough time. So to be vulnerable enough to let her see that and understand that that was my grief and really to at some point just say, listen, I'm having a hard time, which I think is very hard for a lot of us to. To admit and to take steps to try to deal with it in a constructive way.

Alison Stewart (6:31)

How is that for you?

Alison Stewart (6:33)

Well, to your credit, I think that if you had soldiered through, if you hadn't shared what you were going through, I would be left in the dark. And being by my mom's side through this journey through which she's been very open about the pain and exploring that in a book together, I've seen how much strength it requires to be so vulnerable and how healing it is to be open and to just to say. I think it's a very hard thing to say. I had my heart stomped on, and I'm sad. And to say that to people you love, you don't want to bring bad news, but it's not. It's something that we got to be there for her. I got to support her as a family member and as a co writer in this book. And I think that's such a gift. And my mom really cringes when anyone calls me. Calls her brave. But I really. I can say it. I think it's so brave. And I think it's a powerful example as her daughter, to see someone go through something so difficult and unexpected and to really face it and sort through it and express it. To me, that's such a powerful example. And it makes me think, all right, I'm going to face hard things in my life. And I have a powerful example of how to go through that.

Host/Interviewer (7:54)

You go, mom.

Susie Hopkins (7:56)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (7:57)

We're talking to Susie Hopkins and Hallie.

Host/Interviewer (7:59)

Bateman, the mother, daughter, author and illustrator.

Alison Stewart (8:01)

Behind the book what to do when.

Host/Interviewer (8:03)

Youn Get A Guide to Unbreaking your Heart. One of the book's framing devices is on the pages. It says it's got a countdown, 1582 days, and it goes down to 1,571 and on the way. Why was this a framing device?

Susie Hopkins (8:19)

Well, because when I started the book, I wrote the first draft, it took me about a year. And it was a framing device because I was somewhere in the middle, which. The book is in three parts. It starts at the end when you get dumped and you're in panic mode. It goes into the muddle, which is this very. For me, two year period was the muddle, and then the beginning, which is sort of the start of your new life. And the framing device was. I mean, the whole book was, in a way, a pep talk and note of encouragement to myself that I find out in the world of either grief literature or online, you know, sad chat rooms I tried to visit because I. I'm a very private person, and I wanted to read something in the privacy of my home that made me feel like I could get through it. I just needed some encouragement from a vantage point of never having felt as alone in my life. And I was 58 years old, and I thought, you know, you think, well, you got this stuff figured out. By the time you're. You're getting that old, and I'm starting back and knowing nothing and feeling directionless where I land with this breakup. So the framing device was a countdown to really, when I actually felt that my heart was unbroken. And I hope that readers that read the book will have a much, much shorter time of it.

Alison Stewart (9:44)

Let's take a couple of calls. Let's talk to Mavis from la. Hi, Mavis. Thank you for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

Caller (9:53)

Hi.

Caller (9:53)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

Alison Stewart (9:56)

Great.

Caller (9:59)

Well, I have. I have two things that I think are really important about going through a breakup, whether you've been dumped or not. Number one is I think you have to be super strict with social media, like, do not follow the person who. Who you broke up with. It's just going to make you feel bad. So I feel like that's just a rule you cannot break. And number two is I just try to focus on, you know, when you're in a relationship. I think this is especially true for women. But you compromise so much, and that's great and it's important, but when you go through a breakup, you don't have to do that anymore. So I kind of focus on falling in love with myself and indulging on all my crazy habits and reclaiming my space and having my world exactly the way I want it.

Alison Stewart (10:50)

Mavis, thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Tony from Fort Lee, New Jersey. Hi, Tony.

Caller (10:56)

Hey, guys. Great topic. And, yeah, unfortunately, I'm the king of being Dumped. So I have a lot of experience, not only multiple relationships, but divorce too. And I would say, you know what? Number one, I would say, give yourself that time to cry. Get it out. Don't act like it didn't happen. You know, you have to give yourself time to what they call embrace the suck. Don't act like it didn't happen. You know, cry it out. Good week of that. And then for me, after that, you get yourself a therapist, get into the gym, proper nutrition, proper sleep, proper connection with the people that you love. And lastly, I would say there's an old saying, there's only one God. Don't make your relationship your God. Don't make, you know, don't worship. It's not that it's not important, but I found when I was making that person my significant other, my God or the relationship, my God, that was not good. Because like I said, there's only one God and it's not my relationship. Those things will end one way or another. So putting things in perspective made me a lot stronger and be able to get through those. Those hard times.

Host/Interviewer (12:00)

We appreciate it. Tony.

Alison Stewart (12:01)

I was gonna ask you, Haley, you have a picture in here of somebody.

Host/Interviewer (12:04)

Just on the ground, just crying.

Alison Stewart (12:07)

Just crying. Here, she's in the toilet. It's a mess, but it's good. But she's a mess, basically.

Alison Stewart (12:13)

Oh, absolutely.

Alison Stewart (12:14)

What was your first drawing that you.

Host/Interviewer (12:16)

Made for the book?

Alison Stewart (12:17)

I. Maybe it was that one. I mean, I remember it kind of looks like it would be in the beginning. I mean, so for listeners, Allison is pointing to the. Really the first direction in the book, and the direction says panic. And then you turn the page and it says, keep panicking. And. Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea here, which I love that the listener pointed this out, is like embracing how much it sucks. Like, I think that there's so much of a tendency to say, I shouldn't be in this much pain. I shouldn't be struggling this much. And a lot of self help literature, I think, can be kind of alienating because it has a bit of a, like. And now take a deep breath. And then you're gonna meditate. And it's like, no, you're gonna be screaming, crying, and throwing up because you're so heartbroken. And so I think that our book is. It's my mom's story. And I think it also, hopefully, in telling my mom's story, helps the reader just trust their own instincts on how to get through this. Because there's just so many directions in the book that Are, you know, really real to my mom. And they might not be exactly what you would do, but by seeing that, like my mom allowed herself to take a sledgehammer to the kitty litter box that she and my dad own together, like, you know, you really have to like own it to go through that. And I think that that's like, that's kind of what the first caller pointed out too, was like, living your truth. You don't owe anyone anything anymore.

Host/Interviewer (13:52)

What did you find out that you didn't know before about the relationship?

Alison Stewart (13:58)

Oof. Oh, yeah. Well, I think in a lot of ways I found out how flawed it.

Caller (14:05)

Was.

Alison Stewart (14:07)

That, you know, through, through really this kind of a postmortem on the relationship, I, I think I learned the truth about it, which, you know, when you're a kid and you're growing up, like, I think I was like, yeah, this is what a marriage is, right? Like, you don't really know. And actually I was engaged as my parents were going through the divorce. And in many ways that was really painful, but I was actually so thankful for it because I felt that I got to learn just the truth and I got to really gain a lot of wisdom from my parents experience that I could carry into my own marriage about, you know, just like the importance of communication and couples therapy and all these things that, you know. Yeah, maybe, maybe we all need to learn about Susie.

Host/Interviewer (14:59)

As the book progresses, you encourage people to repeat certain strategies at different points in the process. First you say make a to do list with examples like sob uncontrollably, stare out the window, fair. But the second to do list has invite a new acquaintance for dinner, take a road trip, sign up for a ceramics class. Why are these both important for the healing process?

Susie Hopkins (15:21)

I think all, I think the gist of it is that you have to give yourself grief is unique. And you have to give yourself permission to grieve in a timeline that matches what you need. And I think I can tell you I can see the people in my mind who got really tired of watching me cry in public when I saw them and would I have liked not to cry in public? Yes. I had professional meetings where I just dissolved. I just had a frailty about it, Liked to say, well, that's not me, but I learned that I was carrying it and it had to get out and that was okay. And giving myself permission and finding really through the writing of this, in which I'm really talking to the reader, but the book is really me talking to myself as I'm healing and acknowledging what works and what didn't. And it's all about being nicer to myself and finding permission to go on in the way that I need to grieve, whether that's in complete isolation or finding people. And it's your path that nobody else. And if they judge you for it, you have to ignore that and just say, I need to get through this the best way that I can with the resources that I need.

Alison Stewart (16:40)

This is a great text. Thank you for doing this segment. I will have to read the book. My husband recently ended our marriage after 33 years and three kids. It was a total shock, and I felt so stupid and naive. My heart is permanently broken. But that also opened up my heart, and I feel so much more empathetic towards others. My daughter has saved me during this time, and I don't know what I would have done without her.

Alison Stewart (17:02)

Wow. Well, I just want to say we wrote this book for you. Really?

Susie Hopkins (17:06)

Yeah. I needed something I couldn't find, which was a bit of encouragement that I would be pulled out of the dark woods by my own effort and time and things that. And people who I could find that were willing to listen and support me along the way. And it's a. It's a tough road, especially after a long relationship. And there's not a lot of examples of. This is what I did to get through. And it wasn't pretty. What I did wasn't pretty. It was messy, it was embarrassing, it was somewhat humiliating. And here it is in a book, and it's like.

Alison Stewart (17:46)

And there's so many, you know, funny moments and unexpected closeness. Like, you talk about your daughter getting you through it. Like, I think about how close my mom and I have become throughout the process of making this book. And there's so much to grieve. But then there's like, these weird silver linings to it that, you know, you start to be able to see.

Host/Interviewer (18:08)

Let's talk about to Holly, who is calling in from Coney Island. Hi, Holly.

Caller (18:13)

Hey.

Caller (18:13)

Great to hear from you.

Host/Interviewer (18:15)

Love having you call in. What do you have to say?

Caller (18:18)

Thanks so much. Love this segment. I want to say that in the year 2000, I got out of a really toxic wonder wheel of a situation in Los Angeles. And for me, I drove cross country to get to Brooklyn, where I always wanted to live. And I pulled over in my first stop and started writing on cocktail napkins to a fictional Dear Love. And the first letter was Dear Love. This is my last letter. And the cocktail napkins went on and on, drawings, letters to the love and in the end, I had about 250 napkins that got turned into a book. This year, an indie publisher picked me up over Covid. And it's an art object, but it really is addressing so much of what your guests are talking about. Self forgiveness, I feel like it is. My book is progenzy. They love it because they can open to any page, and a chapter might be, you know, three sentences. They're like, I'm reading. I love this. But I'm getting a lot of feedback, a lot of opportunities to read from it. And it really is a manual for the future, because in the end, I celebrate myself as like the phoenix rising. Looking at all your mistakes. I really feel the author is, like, saying, I feel like such an idiot. I think self forgiveness is the hardest part, but I'm so proud. My cocktail napkins. I didn't believe anyone that said it was a book. I had a.

Alison Stewart (19:45)

But you believed in it. When you believed in it, it went to life. When you thought about it, when you thought about her taking her experience and turning it into something creative. Susie, did you find that for yourself, or did the book come after.

Alison Stewart (20:06)

The book?

Susie Hopkins (20:06)

The. The book came. See if I can address it. The book came during.

Alison Stewart (20:10)

While you were doing it.

Susie Hopkins (20:11)

The book came when I was in the middle of healing and the book came. I resonated with her story because I also wrote notes to myself and stuffed them in a box. And that was how. I'm a journalist. I've never stuffed notes in a box before. And when the box was full, I went on a retreat and started to put the first draft together.

Alison Stewart (20:31)

Interesting.

Susie Hopkins (20:31)

But I. A real. A real impetus was talking to strangers who'd been badly dumped before I decided to really write the book. And those people, in hearing their stories of how they made it through, and in some cases, they'd been five or 10 years, some cases 20 years earlier, had been dumped. But talking to those strangers really made this book emerge because I understood that talking to them made me feel much less alone. Sure. And helped me get out of that space. Space. And so piecing it together was, in fact, how I also did this book.

Host/Interviewer (21:09)

You have a page here that says, blame if you must, my reality versus your ex's reality. What was the impetus for this page?

Susie Hopkins (21:19)

That was one in which Hallie and I really went over. And it was very painful to write because it was acknowledging parts of my childhood past and what I brought into marriage, which was I came from a very dysfunctional family with a lot of unspoken grief and from the Abuse that we witnessed. And my husband, who I don't think it's fair to talk about, but it's lightly represented in this book, had whatever issues he brought in. And it's acknowledging that everybody does bring it in. And when you get together and you're really in love with somebody, you can't see that stuff. It comes out over time. And hopefully with communication, you bridge those gaps and you build your life together in a way that grows together and sometimes that doesn't happen. And that was the. So she and I, I wrote an initial version that wasn't. Didn't go deep enough. And Hallie then said, well, that doesn't go deep enough. So we really. That was part of our collaborative, is Hallie, who wasn't in. It was difficult to write in parts because it's facing the truth of what. What my life was. And hallelujah would call me on it and say, a, I can't illustrate that. You gotta rewrite it. And B, it's not quite deep enough.

Host/Interviewer (22:37)

I wanted to ask about the end of the book. It's full, gorgeous pages where there were a lot of illustrations and a lot of white around it. Tell me a little bit about the gorgeous. The images going right off the pages at the end.

Alison Stewart (22:52)

So, yeah, the ending of the book is about this moment that, you know, my mom really chose to unbreak her heart. And I think that's kind of an interesting twist of the narrative, is that it's not something that's done to you. It's something that, at least for my mom, it was a decision she made herself. And I think that the illustration is so important to be so. So lush and big, to give the reader a way for that feeling that can't really be encapsulated in words to wash over them. The feeling of self discovery. And it's an illustration of the main character, who's based on my mom walking up a hill toward a sunset. And what I just love so much about combining words and illustration is the power of the art and the words combined to, you know, you're. You can rest on that page as long as you want and you can, you know the words. It's not a ton of words. And a heartbroken person doesn't have to work that hard to absorb the message. Even if you just looked at the picture, it could be, hopefully, a gift and a relief to you. So, yeah, these paintings are trying to do justice to my mom's conclusion of this book.

Host/Interviewer (24:15)

That was my conversation with author Susie Hopkins and her daughter, illustrator Hallie Bateman. The book is called what to do when youn Get A Guide to Unbreaking your Heart.

Alison Stewart (24:26)

Coming up next hour, we'll get into a new comedy special from Jonathan Van Ness. And we'll also hear some music from the late tablas player Zakir Hussain. I'm Alison Stewart. We'll have more all of it after the news.

MultiCare Announcer (24:41)

Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because MultiCare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier that comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org.

Ira Flato (25:11)

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship wnyc. Org.