Podcast Summary

All Of It (WNYC)

Episode: A Graphic Novel About Getting Through Divorce Grief
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Susie Hopkins (author), Hallie Bateman (illustrator, daughter)
Air Date: August 19, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the creation and impact of the graphic novel What To Do When You Get Dumped: A Guide to Unbreaking Your Heart, authored by Susie Hopkins and illustrated by her daughter, Hallie Bateman. The book uses humor and personal storytelling—accompanied by poignant illustrations—to navigate the grief of a painful divorce, offering support for anyone facing heartbreak. The conversation sheds light on the unique mother-daughter collaboration, personal growth through vulnerability, and the creative process that transformed private suffering into public art and support.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Mother-Daughter Creative Dynamic

• Zach (Producer) on Discovery of the Duo
  Zach admits he only recently discovered that the author and illustrator are mother and daughter, underscoring how family intimacy translates into creative authenticity.

  "You get to see how that kind of pre-existing intimacy can transform the creative process... I never would have imagined that a story about divorce and all this grief and loss and pain would would be able to be so effective coming from a mother daughter duo." — Zach (00:42)

• Hallie on Joining the Project
  Hallie describes joining her mother on the book as a cathartic opportunity to process their family’s trauma together, blending personal healing with artistic pursuit.

  "Getting to explore and dissect and look at the whole thing with my mom was so appealing to me... It felt like guaranteed catharsis of some sort." — Hallie Bateman (04:38)

The Shock and Early Stages of Grief

• Susie on Initial Impact
  The painful, destabilizing onset of her 30-year marriage ending prompted Susie to create a work for others feeling as lost as she did.

  "The shock of that took honestly months just to accept that that was the reality. And all along the path I said, am I the slowest person ever to learn to accept something that is clearly... just happened? And it was that disconnect that I found really the hard first." — Susie Hopkins (03:54)

Vulnerability and Healing: A Family Perspective

• Susie on Parental Vulnerability
  Susie reflects on the challenge of letting her daughter witness her grief, a reversal of the typical parent-child dynamic.

  "As a parent, you want to just set the strong example of soldiering through. And I really had a tough time. So to be vulnerable enough to let her see that..." — Susie Hopkins (05:41)

• Hallie on the Power of Vulnerability

  "I've seen how much strength it requires to be so vulnerable and how healing it is to be open... To me, that's such a powerful example. And it makes me think, all right, I'm going to face hard things in my life. And I have a powerful example of how to go through that." — Hallie Bateman (06:33)

The Book’s Creative Structure and Approach

• Graphic Novel as a Metaphor
  Zach and Alison discuss how the format mirrors the stuck feeling of grief—each comic panel a box to move through, inviting active reader participation.

  "One of the themes of the book is the only way out right, is through. And as the reader, you are turning the pages, you are pacing that journey..." — Zach (02:00)

• The Countdown Framing Device
  Susie explains the book’s countdown of days marking her healing process—a concrete, visual representation of time and progress.

  "The framing device was a countdown to really, when I actually felt that my heart was unbroken. And I hope that readers... will have a much, much shorter time of it." — Susie Hopkins (08:19)

Embracing the Messiness of Heartbreak

• Hallie on Illustrating Grief
  Hallie recounts the decision to open the book with raw, honest depictions of panic and chaos rather than sanitized positivity.

  "The idea here... is like embracing how much it sucks. Like, I think that there's so much of a tendency to say, I shouldn't be in this much pain... And so I think that our book is... [about] helping the reader just trust their own instincts on how to get through this." — Hallie Bateman (12:17)

• Permission to Grieve Your Way Susie stresses the need to accept—and protect—the timeline and style of grief that feels authentic to each person.

  "Grief is unique. And you have to give yourself permission to grieve in a timeline that matches what you need... If they judge you for it, you have to ignore that and just say, I need to get through this the best way that I can." — Susie Hopkins (15:21)

• Evolution of Healing Tasks
  The book moves from to-do lists of “sob uncontrollably” to “invite a new acquaintance for dinner,” showing stages of recovery through small, concrete steps.

  (See above quote; discussed 14:59–15:21)

Community Voices: Listeners Call In

Tips and Experiences

• Mavis (LA): Avoid following an ex on social media, and reclaim your own space and habits. (09:53)

• Tony (Fort Lee, NJ): Allow yourself to grieve, seek support through therapy and community, separate your relationship from your personal identity.

  "Don't act like it didn't happen... Embrace the suck." — Tony (10:56)

• Holly (Coney Island): Used art—writing on cocktail napkins—as a healing project, echoing Susie’s journey to turning personal stories into art. (18:13)

The Hard-Won Wisdom of Divorce

• Hallie on Relationship Realism
  Hallie finds learning from her parent’s divorce (while engaged herself) instructive for her own marriage, emphasizing communication and therapy.

  "I learned the truth about it, which... I got to really gain a lot of wisdom from my parents experience that I could carry into my own marriage..." — Hallie Bateman (13:58)

• Susie on Self-Forgiveness and "Messy" Survival
  Emphasizes that surviving heartbreak isn't a clean process, but messiness and embarrassment are part of honest recovery.

  "What I did wasn't pretty. It was messy, it was embarrassing, it was somewhat humiliating. And here it is in a book..." — Susie Hopkins (17:06)

Collaboration and Going Deep

• Co-editing Painful Truths
  Hallie pushed Susie to go deeper in confronting the realities of her marriage and past, even when it was difficult to illustrate or face.

  "Hallie then said, well, that doesn't go deep enough. So we really... That was part of our collaborative, is Hallie, who wasn't in. It was difficult to write in parts because it's facing the truth..." — Susie Hopkins (21:19)

A Visual and Emotional Resolution

• The Book’s End: A Visual Statement of Healing
  Hallie designs the concluding pages with lush images and white space, mirroring emotional openness and renewal.

  "The ending of the book is about this moment that, you know, my mom really chose to unbreak her heart... The illustration is so important... to give the reader a way for that feeling... to wash over them." — Hallie Bateman (22:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The only way out... is through." — Zach (02:00)
• "If you hadn't shared what you were going through, I would be left in the dark... It makes me think, all right, I'm going to face hard things in my life. And I have a powerful example of how to go through that." — Hallie Bateman (06:33)
• "You don't owe anyone anything anymore." — Hallie Bateman (12:17)
• "It's all about being nicer to myself and finding permission to go on in the way that I need to grieve..." — Susie Hopkins (15:21)
• "There's not a lot of examples of: 'this is what I did to get through.' And it wasn't pretty... It was messy, it was embarrassing, it was somewhat humiliating. And here it is in a book." — Susie Hopkins (17:06)
• "At least for my mom, [healing] was a decision she made herself... The illustration is so important... to give the reader a way for that feeling that can't really be encapsulated in words to wash over them." — Hallie Bateman (22:52)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:08 — Alison introduces the episode/theme and book.
• 00:38 — Discovery of the mother-daughter duo's impact on the book’s style and depth.
• 03:54 — Susie discusses the trauma and shock of her breakup.
• 05:32 — Susie's discomfort yet necessity in allowing Hallie to witness her healing.
• 06:33 — Hallie reflects on healing through shared vulnerability.
• 08:19 — On the book’s countdown as a structural and emotional device.
• 09:53 — Listeners call in with breakup strategies.
• 12:17 — Hallie discusses the authenticity and messiness of her illustrations.
• 14:59 — Transition from sorrowful to-do lists to proactive ones.
• 15:21 — Susie describes the necessity of personal, judgement-free grieving.
• 17:06 — A listener’s (and Susie’s) recognition of the book as a needed, honest resource.
• 18:13 — Holly from Coney Island shares her art-driven journey through heartbreak.
• 21:19 — Susie and Hallie’s editorial push for deeper honesty.
• 22:52 — Hallie describes the visual and emotional resolution at the end of the book.

Conclusion

What To Do When You Get Dumped stands out as a blend of personal narrative, wit, and raw visual emotion. This episode’s conversation shows how vulnerability, honesty, and creative collaboration—especially within families—can lead to works that provide both catharsis for the creator and meaningful companionship for readers in pain. The mother-daughter team’s willingness to depict the messiness, humor, and gradual hope found in heartbreak makes their book, and this episode, a compassionate resource for anyone navigating a broken heart.