A Guide To Making Holiday Traditions Secular, And Sacred

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "A Guide To Making Holiday Traditions Secular, And Sacred"

Release Date: December 20, 2024
Host: Kate Hines (filling in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Sasha Sagan and David Lang

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Introduction

In this episode of WNYC's All Of It, host Kate Hines delves into the evolving landscape of holiday traditions, exploring how they can be both secular and sacred. With a focus on inclusivity and the diverse cultural fabric of New York City, the conversation navigates the intersection of modern practices and historical customs, aiming to provide listeners with meaningful ways to celebrate the winter season.

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Reframing Holiday Traditions with Sasha Sagan

Secular Celebrations and Modern Practices

Kate Hines opens the discussion by highlighting the shift in holiday celebrations from predominantly religious observances to more secular, culturally driven practices. Referencing recent polls, she notes a significant increase in religious unaffiliation and a generational shift in how holidays like Christmas are perceived.

Notable Quote:

"A 2021 Pew poll found that the share of religiously unaffiliated people had grown by 10 percentage points over the past decade."
— Kate Hines [00:18]

Sasha Sagan's Perspective on the Winter Solstice

Sasha Sagan, host of Strange Customs and author of For Small Creatures Such as We, shares her personal approach to celebrating the winter solstice. She emphasizes the natural science behind the solstice and its significance in marking the return of longer days.

Notable Quote:

"We have a dinner party and we light candles and we exchange gifts and we talk about to our kids the idea that the axial tilt of the Earth... makes for seasons."
— Sasha Sagan [01:41]

Connecting Science and Spirituality

Sagan discusses the harmony between scientific understanding and a sense of awe, illustrating how embracing the grandeur of the universe can foster a deeper connection with ourselves and each other without relying on traditional religious beliefs.

Notable Quote:

"Science is not just like a list of formulas to memorize, but it's a philosophy, it's a method for understanding our place in the universe."
— Sasha Sagan [03:09]

Historical Solstice Traditions

The conversation shifts to historical solstice celebrations, with Sagan referencing Macrobius’s account of Saturnalia in ancient Rome. She draws parallels between ancient gift-giving practices and modern holiday customs, highlighting the timeless human desire to bring joy during the darkest days of the year.

Notable Quote:

"There's something really powerful about the idea that when it's dark out, when it's cold, we try to find a way to make joy for one another."
— Sasha Sagan [07:01]

Global Solstice Traditions

Sagan explores various global traditions associated with the solstice, such as Yalda in Iran, which involves staying up all night and sharing poetry. She underscores the universal theme of embracing the darkness and transforming it into a time of beauty and reflection.

Notable Quote:

"Instead of avoiding it, stay up, revel in it, make it beautiful, rather than just sort of putting your head in the sand till it's over."
— Sasha Sagan [08:15]

Raising Children with Secular Traditions

Addressing the upbringing of children in a secular household with diverse cultural traditions, Sagan emphasizes the importance of framing religious stories as influential narratives rather than doctrinal teachings. This approach fosters an appreciation for diverse perspectives and the underlying values of shared human experiences.

Notable Quote:

"This is the way we tell each other, to ourselves, to our children, it's about now."
— Sasha Sagan [10:19]

Embracing New Year's as a Flexible Time Marker

Sagan encourages listeners to view New Year's resolutions as flexible, reminding them that the concept of a "new year" varies across cultures and that personal growth can be pursued at any time.

Notable Quote:

"Every day can be New Year's Day. Tomorrow is another day."
— Sasha Sagan [11:45]

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David Lang on "Poor Hymnal" – Bridging Secular and Sacred

Introduction to "Poor Hymnal"

Transitioning from secular traditions, Kate Hines introduces David Lang, a Pulitzer Prize-winning composer, who discusses his new choral composition, Poor Hymnal. The piece seeks to reinterpret the concept of hymns by blending biblical and secular influences to reflect a more inclusive and responsibility-focused community ethos.

Notable Quote:

"Poor Hymnal draws from biblical passages but also secular figures, Mahatma Gandhi, Leo Tolstoy, even Elizabeth Warren."
— Kate Hines [15:12]

Inspiration and Conceptualization

David Lang explains that the inspiration for Poor Hymnal stems from his academic studies of Charles Ives and the role of hymns in community building. Lang aimed to create a collection of hymns that resonate with contemporary values of mutual responsibility and compassion, diverging from traditional religious themes.

Notable Quote:

"I wonder if it's possible to imagine hymns that I could believe in that wouldn't be so far away from the originals that the original people couldn't believe them too."
— David Lang [17:16]

Secular Religious Music

Lang elaborates on his vision of Poor Hymnal as a form of religious music that is not tethered to any existing religion but instead embodies a universal commitment to doing good deeds and caring for one another. This approach aims to foster community through shared moral principles rather than doctrinal beliefs.

Notable Quote:

"It's an imagination of a religion that we should have or a religion that we could have... a utopian idea that we do owe something to each other."
— David Lang [18:04]

Premiere and Performance Details

Lang provides insights into the upcoming premiere of Poor Hymnal at Lincoln Center's Alice Tully Hall. The performance is designed to be interactive, with projected texts to invite audience participation and foster a communal singing experience.

Notable Quote:

"They're going to project the text so that everybody will be able to understand the words... it's made to feel as if you knew the words you would be invited to sing along."
— David Lang [20:49]

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Conclusion

In this episode of All Of It, Kate Hines successfully bridges the gap between secular and sacred traditions, offering listeners thoughtful perspectives on how to navigate and enrich holiday celebrations in a diverse and evolving cultural landscape. Through engaging conversations with Sasha Sagan and David Lang, the podcast underscores the importance of community, shared values, and the continual reimagining of traditions to resonate with contemporary life.

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Notable Takeaways:

• Embracing Secular Celebrations: Modern holiday traditions can retain their cultural significance while embracing secular themes rooted in history and science.

• Science as a Source of Wonder: Understanding the natural phenomena behind solstices can enhance the sense of awe and community during celebrations.

• Reimagining Hymns: Compositions like Poor Hymnal demonstrate how traditional forms can be adapted to reflect inclusive and compassionate values.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes to provide a vivid overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Listener Support]

Listener support, WNYC Studios.

[Kate Hines]

This is all of it. I'm Kate Hines in for Alison Stewart. Today, We've been talking about things to do this winter, and a lot of activities right now are holiday driven. There are bedecked trees and menorahs seasonally standing at the ready. We're buying presents. We're singing our merry songs and baking our festive cookies. And while the two major monotheistic winter holidays have religious roots, they've grown well beyond those origins. A 2021 Pew poll found that the share of religiously unaffiliated people had grown by 10 percentage points over the past decade. Another poll in 2017 found that millennials are the first generation to consider Christmas more of a cultural holiday than a religious one. So we wanted to have a conversation that reframes the holiday season around more secular ideas, like connecting to our history or appreciating the science behind the glorious cosmic ballet that gives us the winter solstice, which, as you know, is tomorrow. Joining us now is Sasha Sagan. She's the host of the podcast Strange Customs, author of the book For Small Creatures Such as we, and daughter of the renowned science communicator Carl Sagan. Sasha, welcome back to all of it.

[Sasha Sagan]

I'm so happy to be with you. Kate, Happy solstice.

[Kate Hines]

Thank you. Happy solstice to you. So you have your own practices when it comes to the winter solstice. What does it mean to you? And how do you make it an event, an activity with your family and loved ones?

[Sasha Sagan]

So I love to celebrate. And, you know, I grew up with a sort of cultural, secular version of Hanukkah, and my husband grew up with a cultural, secular version of Christmas. And we do those. But we also, on the winter solstice, celebrate the idea that no matter what, starting the next day, the days are going to start getting longer again. The light will return. And it's something so big and so powerful and so beautiful that you don't need to believe in it in order for it to be true. And so we have a dinner party and we light candles and we exchange gifts and we talk about to our kids the idea that the axial tilt of the Earth, the planet revolves around the sun at this little approximately 23 degree angle. We're a little bit off as a planet, and it makes for seasons. And it's this amazing gift of chance that allows us to have the experience of winter and summer and to know that when the days are short and it's cold and dark, the light is coming back, the warmth is coming back. We will get back to summer eventually.

[Kate Hines]

But hopefully we'll get to experience a real winter with some snow first.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes, I do love the changing seasons, whatever they are.

[Kate Hines]

Yeah. And for folks who might not have heard you the last time you joined us here on all of it, can you give us a brief overview? And I realize this is probably hard to truncate, but how you think about science and spirituality.

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, you know, for me it's not just the pathway to understanding. It is also the source of that sense of awe and wonder, that spine chilling thrill that makes you feel like you are part of the vastness. And it's something that my parents, Carl Sagan and my mother, Andrean, they taught me and millions of other people this idea that it's not just intellectually satisfying, it's also emotionally satisfying. And then the idea that, you know, science is not just like a list of formulas to memorize, but it's a philosophy, it's a method for understanding our place in the universe, which is, I think, what we've all been trying to do since our, you know, earliest ancestors looked up at the night sky and tried to glean some of the patterns of the cycles of what it's like to be alive on this particular planet.

[Kate Hines]

There is something very beautiful and humbling I find especially about like being at the beach at the night in summer and looking up at the night sky and thinking like we're just specks of cosmic dust and everything around us is so much bigger than us. And I find it really uplifting and kind of amazing.

[Sasha Sagan]

I do too. And it's like being part of the grandeur is really meaningful. But listen, I also get the existential crisis. And like, you know, we do have those moments too where we're like, we are tiny, we live for the blink of an eye. The universe is gigantic, we understand nothing. And listen, I think the existential crisis is a normal part of life, but on the other side of it, once you get through it, I. There's something really magnificent about the idea that we're here right now, we're together in this moment and we have one another and we have this, this beginning of an understanding of how vast the universe is. And we're learning each day how we got here and how we're connected to one another.

[Kate Hines]

Hearing you speak, you are a very upbeat person. And so it's. I just wanted to mention that you wrote in a Reddit, ask me anything a few years ago, you consider yourself, quote, secular but not cynical.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes.

[Kate Hines]

So say more about that.

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, I am. Listen, you know, I mean, I do have a basically positive, optimistic outlook, but, you know, hopefully not like in a toxic way. I know, but I just don't, you know, I think that it's very easy to be sort of blase about a lot of the things that we learn and be sort of like, you know, not that awe inspired by. Once we learn how DNA works, once we learn how the solar system works, once we sort of, you know, have an understanding of these things, it's easy to sort of see them as not very thrilling and not very wondrous. But I think that there's a way to get back to not maligning facts as cold and hard, but enjoying the, you know, when you get those images back from like the Webb telescope in deep space, like having that thrill, that moment of connectedness. And I think there's so much beauty in nature as revealed by science that allows us to be joyful.

[Kate Hines]

You know, listeners, we are talking about secular ways to make the most of the holiday spirit. And I'm joined with Sasha Sagan, host of the podcast Strange Customs and author of the book For Small Creatures Such. Sasha, earlier this week when you were talking to our producer about this topic, you made reference to something written by a guy named, and I hope I pronounce his name correctly, Macrobius. Yeah, about the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia and how that for you, that has some resonance with our modern practice of giving gifts.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes. I mean, there have been so many winter solstice celebrations and throughout history, and Saturnalia is one of them. You know, of course, Christmas and Hanukkah and you have Yalda Dongzi, all holidays around the world that are connected to the winter solstice. But Macrobius was writing about Saturnalia in ancient Rome and he makes this reference to people sort of overspending to impress each other. And when we were talking about the gift giving element of the winter holidays, I thought, you know, there's something really, really ancient there. But I also think there's something really powerful about the idea that when it's dark out, when it's cold, we try to find a way to make joy for one another, maybe overextending our. But we, you know, light, you know, lighting lights, candles, holiday lights, showing up at someone's door with cookies. This is sort of this, this beautiful way we've all come together to try to sort of take the edge off the feeling of these, these short, dark days that we're experiencing right now.

[Kate Hines]

What are some other interesting solstice traditions from around the world from history that you think speak to certain issues and tendencies today?

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, there's so many examples of, for example, Yalda, which is celebrated in Iran. And of course, like all holidays, all traditions, they're all sort of. We have to mutate in order to survive. And so the ways things get celebrated over time changes. But there's this history in Yalda of staying up all night to sort of ward off the evil spirits, and I. And reading poetry to one another. And I just love the idea that when it's dark out and when the nights are long, instead of avoiding it, stay up, revel in it, make it beautiful, rather than, you know, just sort of putting. Putting your head in the sand till it's over.

[Kate Hines]

So we've talked about how a lot of the celebrations around this time of year center on lights. What are some other common themes around winter holidays?

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, food certainly is a big part of it in Jiangzi. There's. There in China, there's rice cakes that are very traditional. And I think that the idea that, you know, we're at this turning point, right? It's this paradox in so many of these holidays where it's like this moment of these, you know, this long night while far away on the other side of the planet, it's summertime, and they're having their shortest night of the year. I think there's something really beautiful in that, that sort of is this paradox of what it's like to. To be alive on Earth. It's the extremes, it's the opposites that make the. And I think there's a little bit of that in so much of what we do, where it's because we've experienced the cold that we appreciate the warmth. It's because we've experienced the dark that we can appreciate the light.

[Kate Hines]

So you mentioned you were raised secular Jewish and your husband was a secular Christian. You're raising your kids with elements from both of those faiths. How do you talk to your kids about the story of Hanukkah? And I kind of want to address how you use terms like miracles with them, because their miracle is mentioned so often in the religious context.

[Sasha Sagan]

Yes. I mean, I think with all religious traditions or traditions that originate in religion, we. We say, you know, this is a story that people told one another, and this is a very ancient story that's very important to a lot of people. And this is how the story goes. But not just, you know, almost framing it. I like to frame it almost as literature. You know, this is a very influential, important story that you know, impacted many people throughout history and maybe, you know, has change the course of history, but it's not painted as something that's necessarily a history lesson, but a part of the, of the stories that we tell ourselves, that we still do, that we always have to try to make sense of our existence. And I, Karen Armstrong, who's a historian of religion, uses the term everyone about myths, which I always find very haunting and very true, that they're always about now. They're, they're, they're about when they originated. But in another way, if we are still telling them to each other, to ourselves, to our children, it's about now.

[Kate Hines]

We just have a minute left. But I wanted to ask you, whatever people's traditions look like, they often represent a kind of annual benchmark this time of year for us to be reflective and take stock and, you know, think about our intentions going forward. What do you think it's important to focus on to make the most of the opportunities this time of year centers on?

[Sasha Sagan]

Well, I think the reason that we have traditions is at least in part because it is so hard to process time passing if we don't find ways to market, whether it's the winter holidays, a birthday or over the course of a human life, coming of age ceremonies, weddings, funerals, it's very hard to wrap our minds around how time goes by. And so I think any opportunity to do that is worthwhile. But the thing that I always try to remember, especially this time of year as we're heading into New Year's, which always feels like this, you know, big turning point, that this is just one calendar we're operating on. And throughout history in different places on Earth. The new year has come in spring and summer and fall, all throughout the year there are new years. So if you don't stick to your resolutions, if it doesn't feel like you're, you know, starting with a clean slate, January 1st, you can just choose another New Year's Day. Every day can be New Year's Day.

[Kate Hines]

Tomorrow is another day. Sasha Sagan, thank you so much for joining us. She's the host of the podcast Strange Customs and author of the book For Small Creatures Such as We. Happy Solstice, Sasha.

[Sasha Sagan]

Happy Solstice. Thanks so much for having me.

[Kate Hines]

The new choral composition Poor Hymnal draws from biblical and secular sources to imagine an alternative kind of hymn and makes its New York premiere at Lincoln center tomorrow. Coming up, Pulitzer Prize winning composer David Lange joins us.

[Listener Support]

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[David Lang]

Last this week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, actor Willem Dafoe on a horror story for Christmas. Robert Eggers new version of Nosferatu.

[Sasha Sagan]

We've really gotten away from the scary vampire.

[David Lang]

We've come full circle and gotten to.

[Sasha Sagan]

The character in Twilight, kind of a sympathetic, sweet vampire. He wanted him to be scary again.

[David Lang]

Willem Dafoe joins us next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Hines]

This is all of it. I'm Kate Hines filling in for Alison Stewart. We've been talking about how the holidays can be a time for religious and secular celebration. And that idea is embodied by a new piece of choral music that is making its New York premiere at Lincoln center tomorrow night. Let's listen to some of poor Hymnal number seven. If you close your ear from Pulitzer winning composer and Bang on a Can co founder David Lange.

[Listener Support]

You will cry.

[Kate Hines]

Out and not be heard.

[Sasha Sagan]

If you refuse to listen to the cry of the Lord.

[Kate Hines]

The libretto draws from biblical passages but also secular figures, Mahatma Gandhi, Leo Tolstoy, even Elizabeth Warren. David Lange writes that the composition is an attempt to find out, quote, if the hymns of a community that did not want to forget our responsibilities to each other and that wanted to make our responsibilities to each other the central tenet of our coming together might be different from the hymns that we are singing now. A recording of the composition is also available to stream and purchase online and David Lang joins me now in studios. Hi David, welcome.

[David Lang]

Hi there. Thanks for having me.

[Kate Hines]

When did you first begin to think about composing a poor hymnal?

[David Lang]

Oh, I've been thinking about this for years and years actually. So I took a class in graduate school, which was many, many years ago in the songs of Charles Ives. And Charles Ives was totally embedded in his New England culture. So band music and popular songs and political songs, but also the religious songs of his community that he belonged to. I didn't grow up in this tradition and I didn' any of these hymns, but I had to start studying Christian hymns in order to be able to decode what he did in those pieces because their references are so embedded. So as soon as I started doing that, I thought, oh, this is so interesting, you know, the idea that you have a hymn which is a kind of a catalog of something that a community sings to each other to remind each other that they agree on this thing. It's sort of like a contract that sung. So I've been thinking about it for, you know, prob, 40 years now.

[Kate Hines]

What was floating around your head when you were composing it?

[David Lang]

Well, you know, I'm not Christian and I'm a Jew. And so a lot of times you hear things that are incredibly beautiful and you hear the spirit of them and you hear the community which is created by these hymns being sung together. And you also recognize, or I recognize that there's a limit to how close to these things I could go. So one of the first things that I started thinking about is I wonder if it's possible to imagine hymns that I could believe in that wouldn't be so far away from the originals that the original people couldn't believe them too.

[Kate Hines]

Do you feel like you are making secular religious music or religious music? Secular? How do these two things speak to each other?

[David Lang]

I look at it differently. I think I'm making religious music, actually. I think this particular piece is religious music. But it's not the religion we have. It's not any of the religions that we have. I think it's an imagination of a religion that we should have or a religion that we could have. You know, it's a kind of utopian idea that we do owe something to each other. We should. When we see a homeless person, we should do something. You see a poor person. You know, my religion tells me all the time to welcome the stranger. I don't welcome the stranger nearly enough. Right. You know, like all the religions, I think, tell us how much better we could be. You know, tell us we could spend all of our time doing good deeds. And so I think the point of this piece is to say, well, if you can imagine a religion that only wanted us to do good deeds for each other, it would have to be a little different from the religions that we have. And it would need a different kind of prayer structure and it would need different hymns. So I wrote the hymns for this non existent, totally fictional, made up, utopian religion.

[Kate Hines]

I want to hear some more of that. Now. The text of Poor Hymnal draws from the Bible and there's a piece called what Is Mine, which credits also Elizabeth Warren, Barack Obama, and St. Basil the Great. Let's hear some of that. Now, one thing that stood out to me in your program note is you write it is hard for us to remind ourselves to keep caring and it would be so much easier to forget. And it feels to me like these are a call to remember.

[David Lang]

Absolutely. I think that that's really the promise of religion, I think, and should be the promise of, you know, probably any kind of deeper compassionate moral life is to really pay attention. And, and I think there's so many things in our life that are trying to keep us from paying attention to important things. So I think this is one of those things that's trying to remind us how powerful and important that is.

[Kate Hines]

In the last 30 seconds or so that we have left. Tell us about tomorrow night. How is it going to look? How's it going to be performed? What time is it? Where can people go?

[David Lang]

It's at Alice Tully hall at Lincoln center. It's at 7:30. I think it might be sold out, but there's a waiting list.

[Kate Hines]

Oh great.

[David Lang]

So please wait. And I think they're going to just stand in front of us like a congregation and sing these songs and they're going to project the text so that everybody will be able to understand the words. The words are very simple. They're set very simply. It's made to feel as if you knew the words you would be invited to sing along because that's one of the great things about hymns as well. They create community by how they're written and by what they're written about.

[Kate Hines]

I've been speaking with David Lang, the composer of Poor Hymnal. Let's go out on one more section. Here's poor hymnal number 11. What remains.

[Sasha Sagan]

When we.

[Kate Hines]

There'S more. All of it on the way. Stay tuned for a pep talk from Josh Gondelman and a listening party with Houston based band who are up for a Grammy for Best New Artist. That's next right after News Headlines.

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