Podcast Summary: "A History of Presidents Who Threatened Democracy"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Cory Brettschneider (Professor of Constitutional Law and Politics, Brown University)
Date: September 27, 2024

Main Theme

This episode explores critical moments in American history when presidents threatened democracy by wielding executive power against core tenets of the Constitution. Drawing on his new book, The President and the Five Leaders who Threatened Democracy and the Citizens who Fought to Defend It, Cory Brettschneider discusses not just the dangers posed by these presidents—including John Adams, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Woodrow Wilson, and Richard Nixon—but also the resilience and activism of citizens who fought back to defend American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Write This Book?

• Brettschneider's impetus: To soberly examine the real dangers the presidency can pose—especially in the hands of someone hostile to democracy—while recognizing the essential optimism and power of an engaged populace.
  • Quote:

    “If an occupant that is a problem that threatens democracy occupies [the presidency], why, we're all in real trouble.”
    — Cory Brettschneider (01:38)

• Cites Patrick Henry’s historical warning: The Constitution assumes virtuous leaders, but what if the opposite is true?

Rethinking Presidential Legacies

• Many histories mythologize certain presidents. Brettschneider intends to provide a corrective, emphasizing the threats some posed:
  • John Adams: Often praised for intellect, Adams also jailed critics, including a sitting congressman (02:40).
  • Danger from the start: The threat to democracy is not new and can be found at the Republic’s origins.

Presidential Power & Politics versus the Constitution

• The Constitution can be read both as a tool for democracy and as a weapon for authoritarianism, depending on its interpreter.
  • Example: Buchanan secretly lobbied justices for the Dred Scott decision, denying Black Americans rights (04:11).
• The malleability of the Constitution is double-edged: it can both enable authoritarianism and provide a platform for citizen resistance.

Constitution’s Ambiguity — Danger and Hope

• The U.S. Constitution is the third-shortest in the world, allowing for both dangerous ambiguity and hope through interpretation.
  • Quote:

    “The malleability of the Constitution both makes it dangerous…but also is its hope because it’s allowed citizens to fight back.”
    — Cory Brettschneider (05:12)

• Example: Frederick Douglass using “We the People” to claim democratic rights for all.

Models of Presidential Understanding

• George Washington’s humility: Saw himself as subordinate to law and welcomed criticism.
  • Quote:

    “If I violate it, I want you to claim, criticize me…subject me to constitutional punishment. What a great explanation…that the office of the President has something above it.”
    — Cory Brettschneider (06:28)

“Recovery Presidents” and Citizen Activists

• Historical precedent for “recovering” democracy after a crisis:
  • Jefferson rejected prosecution of political opponents post-Adams (07:34).
  • Ulysses Grant, in response to Frederick Douglass and Reconstruction activists, helped pass the 15th Amendment and prosecuted white supremacists.
  • Harry Truman, influenced by Civil Rights advocates like Sadie Alexander and Thurgood Marshall, broke with segregationist policies.
  • Notable emphasis on the recurring role of organized citizens in these moments.

Deep Dives: The Five Presidents

John Adams (08:48+)

• Faced early internal threats; conflated personal insults with threats to the country.
• Used the Sedition Act to criminalize criticism of the presidency while allowing criticism of the vice president (09:09).
  • Thin-skinned, egotistical—often merged personal grievances with national security.
  • Jailed at least 126 people, including political opponents and journalists (12:05).
  • Quote:

    “Without the right to dissent, to criticize our leaders, we're not a democracy. And that's why Adams was such a threat.”
    — Cory Brettschneider (09:54)

James Buchanan (12:31+)

• Appeared modest; privately lobbied for pro-slavery decisions.
• Urged Supreme Court’s Dred Scott ruling, expanding slavery and denying Black citizenship (13:50).
• Publicly blamed the Supreme Court to hide his own role; Brettschneider notes contemporary parallels regarding behind-the-scenes presidential influence on the judiciary.

Andrew Johnson (14:53+)

• Motivated by “security” and overt white supremacy.
• Wanted Black Americans as “second class citizens” after the Civil War (15:15).
• Failed to win over Frederick Douglass, who exposed Johnson’s egotism and racism to the public.
  • Johnson “talks about himself as Moses,” believing his own mythos (15:50).

Woodrow Wilson (16:49+)

• Nationalized white supremacy: re-segregated the federal government.
• Promoted Birth of a Nation at the White House and philosophically justified the Klan’s role as “necessary.”
• Created systemic barriers to Black advancement and generational wealth (17:42).
• Used his background as an academic to spread his ideology.

Richard Nixon (20:05+)

• Nixon believed the president was above the law and justified criminal activity (Watergate, plotting against Daniel Ellsberg, etc.).
  • Quote:

    “When Nixon said, famously in an interview that when the president does it, it's not illegal, that was not a mistake. He had a thought out idea…”
    — Cory Brettschneider (21:04)

• Sought stability at all cost, justifying abuses in the name of national duty.
• Grand jury efforts to indict Nixon failed; lack of accountability still echoes today.
  • Quote:

    “Unlike in other clusters, we really never recovered from the Nixon presidency. We're still in the midst of his crimes and his lack of accountability.”
    — Cory Brettschneider (21:57)

The Role of Citizens and the Limits of Formal Checks

• The formal constitutional checks (courts, impeachment) have often failed; it is citizen activism that has made the real difference in holding presidents to account.
  • Quote:

    “The thing that worked, I think, is…‘we the people’… reclaiming our democratic Constitution.”
    — Cory Brettschneider (22:53)

• Recovery is possible, but not inevitable; citizen action is both hope and obligation.
• Brettschneider closes with a call to action, warning democracy is vulnerable if history’s lessons are not heeded.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the presidency’s dangerous potential:

  “If an occupant that is a problem that threatens democracy occupies [the presidency], why, we're all in real trouble.”
  — Cory Brettschneider (01:38)

• On the two-edged nature of the Constitution:

  “The malleability of the Constitution both makes it dangerous…but also is its hope because it’s allowed citizens to fight back.”
  — Cory Brettschneider (05:12)

• On dissent as the essence of democracy:

  “Without the right to dissent, to criticize our leaders, we're not a democracy. And that's why Adams was such a threat.”
  — Cory Brettschneider (09:54)

• On Nixon’s mindset:

  “When Nixon said, famously in an interview that when the president does it, it's not illegal, that was not a mistake. He had a thought out idea…”
  — Cory Brettschneider (21:04)

• On necessity of activism:

  “It's not inevitable. It's really up to us as we the people to take inspiration, to see the possibilities and the hope. But we also might fail.”
  — Cory Brettschneider (23:40)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:35] – Motivation for the book and dangers of the presidency.
• [02:35] – Mythmaking around presidents and Adams’s dark legacy.
• [03:57] – How politics, not constitutional fidelity, drove presidential abuses.
• [05:11] – Dangers and hopes in the Constitution’s brevity.
• [06:24] – George Washington as a model for accountability.
• [08:48] – “Recovery presidents” and activist citizens.
• [09:07] – John Adams’s motivations and the Sedition Act.
• [12:31] – Transition to Buchanan and his pro-slavery conspiracy.
• [14:53] – Andrew Johnson’s white supremacist regime and Douglass’s response.
• [16:49] – Woodrow Wilson's institutionalization of white supremacy.
• [20:05] – Nixon’s crimes and their ongoing legacy.
• [22:31] – Limits of constitutional checks and the vital need for citizen engagement.

Conclusion

This episode of "All Of It" with Alison Stewart and Cory Brettschneider is a timely reminder of both the fragility and the resilience of American democracy. Across history, presidents have dangerously stretched their powers, but citizen activism—and a Constitution open to new interpretation—remains democracy’s true safeguard. Brettschneider’s book serves as both warning and inspiration, urging listeners to remain vigilant and active stewards of their rights.