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- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:29]
Alison Stewart
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Commercial Narrator
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- [01:34]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Though James Beard Award winning cookbook author Anissa Halou spent her first 21 years living in Beirut, she still had a lot to learn about the culinary history of Lebanon. For her latest cookbook, she set out on a tour around the small but diverse nation looking to discover dishes and culinary traditions she had never encountered before. The result is a cookbook that combines recipes with history. It's titled Lebanon Cooking the Foods of My Homeland. The cookbook includes staples of Lebanese cuisine like hummus, tabbouleh and shawarma, but it also includes many regional recipes that you might not find elsewhere, like a special flatbread from a southern Lebanon and a meat pie with roots in an ancient city. Anissa Helou is speaking at the Museum of Food and drink tomorrow at 7pm her cookbook, Lebanon Cooking the Foods of My Homeland publishes tomorrow and she joins me in studio for a sneak peek. It is really nice to meet you.
- [02:32]
Anissa Helou
Lovely to meet you, Alison.
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Alison Stewart
First of all, I do want to talk a little bit about the unrest that's happening. As we went to air Monday, it's 1:38 Israeli forces have entered southern Lebanon. First of all, how's your family? Is everyone okay?
- [02:47]
Anissa Helou
Yeah, I mean, I have very little family left, but lots of friends. And for the time being, they're okay. But many of the people I worked with or met for the book are not okay because they're in the south.
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Alison Stewart
Well, we wish them our very best. We say prayers for them. You traveled through Lebanon to work on this cookbook. What were those travels like? Where did you go? Where did you know you wanted to go?
- [03:14]
Anissa Helou
Well, I actually wanted to go as much. I mean, everywhere, as much as I could. But I did have kind of. I had divided the country in the south, the east, the northeast, the north, and then the coast, or, let's say Beirut and all around Beirut. So I knew more or less which were the regions and the confessions that I needed to sort of look into more in depth. And with my friend who lives there, the photographer, Dalia Hamisi, who took the location photographs, we kind of planned our. I think I went to Lebanon, you know, every two or three months over two years. And we would kind of get into her car and sort of say, okay, we're going down to Tyre, you know, this very southern city on. On the sea, and then meet people, like, more inland and cook with them and everything. Then we would go up north in search of the tiny stuffed vine leaves, you know, which we had at a friend. And so we kind of, you know, crisscrossed the country over a couple of years, every two or three months for, you know, about a week or two, not. Not consecutive, but a few days at a time. And it was really fascinating because even though, as you say, I. I was born and brought up in Le. It was quite. I mean, many, many places and dishes and people were kind of a revelation for me.
- [04:42]
Alison Stewart
Tell me one thing that you learned about Lebanon that you didn't know before.
- [04:47]
Anissa Helou
I don't know about that, but one thing that surprised me, actually, is that I expected to see a lot more picturesque settings, you know, as we went more and more into rural sort of areas. But I think because of the civil. A lot of the country outside of the main cities have been developed, you know, like villages, even like my mother's village. My mother is no longer with us, but where she lives up, you know, northeast of Beirut in a sort of Christian enclave, which was a kind of very tiny village with, you know, stone houses, is now a town. And she moved there because of I mean, after the end, the end of the war. So that surprised me. But otherwise I discovered a lot of, like, Bulgar wheat dishes that I didn't know at all. And I was quite, you know, intrigued by the variety of, you know, because, I mean, it's one of our staples. But I didn't realize how many different cooked dishes there were.
- [05:52]
Alison Stewart
You write a lot in the opening pages of the cookbook about the history of Lebanon. How does the cultural diversity of the country. How does geography play a role?
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Anissa Helou
Well, geography plays a role. Even though it's a tiny, tiny country, the climate doesn't change that much. Well, of course there is snow in the mountains. I mean, so we have very high mountains. And it's not so much the climate that changes. It's first of all, the confessions. So in the south, you have a lot of Shia Muslims who have a different culture from even the Sunni Muslims, who are mostly in the north, or the Christians. So it's within the communities that there is variety rather than in the geography. And of course, in the south, you know, it's more coastal because it's more kind of coastal land than mountains. But, you know, where my mother lives, inland from Beirut is very mountainous. And in the north, you know, you have kind of, you know, plains and also mountains. I mean, the whole of the inland, almost the whole of the inland of Lebanon is mountainous, but also you have big plains in the Beqaa Valley, you know, so there is a part of.
- [07:05]
Alison Stewart
It's all coastal, one part that's all mountains and everything in between. Lebanon was occupied for years by the French and ancient Romans and the Ottomans. How have those cultures contributed to its culinary traditions?
- [07:22]
Anissa Helou
I'm sure they have a lot, I mean, you know, over, like from ancient times. But what's interesting is that for a long, long time, the mountainous region, like the mountains of Lebanon, were autonomous. Like under the Ottomans, they were autonomous. So that part of Lebanon has kind of retained more its own character, whereas the other kind of parts were sort of influenced by the different inv. And because of the invasions, where over centuries and centuries and centuries, you have its layers and layers of history.
- [07:57]
Alison Stewart
You mentioned that there were the different religions in Lebanon, aside from the obvious. Are there cultural differences between Muslim Lebanese and Christian Lebanese cuisines?
- [08:10]
Anissa Helou
Well, there are the kind of rituals, of course, they have different dishes as well. Or for instance, the Christians have, because they don't eat meat every Friday and they don't eat meat during Lent, they have a lot more vegetarian dishes. But these vegetarian dishes are also shared by the Muslims and with varieties, but you know, as side dishes rather than main dishes.
- [08:36]
Alison Stewart
One of the culinary practices in Lebanon you describe is the communal kitchen. What are communal kitchens used for?
- [08:44]
Anissa Helou
Well, actually this is kind of, let's say it's more recent. It's because there are lots of NGOs in Lebanon. They kind of finance these kind of co ops for women to earn their own living, let's say, by doing what they know best, which is cooking. But in some of these kitchens, the kind of funds, the NGO funds have evaporated, let's say, or stopped. And then they converted them into sort of communal kitchens because they have all the equipment and the women who want to make their yearly preserves, what we call muni, they come there to use all the kind of professional equipment, the huge pots and pans and, or you know, the big juicer, whatever, and they make their yearly preserve there and that. You know, I spent a day in one of those kitchens and I thought it was just wonderful because in one corner there was a woman who was making the handkerchief bread to order for various people. Then there was another woman who was creating like crates of tomato to make tomato paste or concentrate. And then there was another woman who had kind of deseeded pomegranates. She had like buckets of pomegranates, poor woman. And then they were juicing it in a professional juicer. Then another one had cooked a ton of tiny eggplants that she wanted to stuff and preserve in olive oil. So it was an extraordinary sort of atmosphere.
- [10:15]
Alison Stewart
My guest is Anissa Helou, author of the new cookbook Lebanon Cooking the Foods of My Homeland. It's out tomor. And Also tomorrow at 7pm Anisse will be speaking at the Museum of Food and Drink. Let's talk about hummus. What kind of variations are there on hummus in the country?
- [10:33]
Anissa Helou
Well, to start with, if you go to the north, I mean, hummus, like the national sort of hummus plate is with olive oil and a garnish of boiled chickpeas, chopped parsley and paprika. But if you go to the north and lots of olive oil, you know, drizzled all over. But in the north they would use toasted walnuts and ghee. Hot ghee.
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Alison Stewart
Oh yeah.
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Anissa Helou
So butter.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah.
- [11:00]
Anissa Helou
So it, it, it, then it makes it completely different. And also they don't use garlic up in the north. So they don't, they don't use, I mean, you know, everybody's used to very garlicky hummus, but there it's not, it's not garlicky at all. And then there were. There were varieties in the South, I think. But I have a very bad memory and I don't remember.
- [11:26]
Alison Stewart
Some people advocate using dried chickpeas for hummus. But you do not believe in that?
- [11:31]
Anissa Helou
Well, I believe in making my life easy in the kitchen. So if you can, you know, in Spain and the markets in Spain, you can buy ready cooked hummus, chickpeas, and they've been perfectly boiled without any preservatives and everything. And from that day, from going through the market in Barcelona, I decided there is no point in me boiling hummus chickpeas. I can buy them in beautiful jars in Spanish brands with no preservatives whatsoever, just preserved in salted water. And then I rinse them and peel some, not at all, because it takes forever. And then, you know, make the hummus and it's perfect. As perfect as if I'd boiled the chickpeas myself.
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Interviewer
You also dedicate a chapter to kibe,
- [12:16]
Alison Stewart
one of the most popular foods in Lebanon. For those who aren't familiar, what is kibe?
- [12:22]
Anissa Helou
Well, it's a mixture of mince meat, lamb, generally very fine bulgar wheat and spices. But then there are many, many, many, many ways of making it. So this is the initial paste, let's say, or mixture. You can make it into a pie, I mean, without like crust. So crustless pie, where you have two layers of kibbeh and a layer of stuffing made with onion, mincemeat and pine nuts. Then you can make little bowls and these little balls you can fry. You can cook in yogurt, in a yogurt sauce, or in a kishk sauce, which is fermented Bulgarian and yogurt, or in a tahini sauce. Or you can grill them over a charcoal fire, but you make them a slightly different shape. And then of course, there are the vegetarian versions. You know, one made with pumpkin, the other made with flour. There are so many variations that I could have really written a book only about Gibli all by itself.
- [13:25]
Interviewer
You write that Sunday's barbecue day in Lebanon. What did Sundays look like for you growing up?
- [13:32]
Anissa Helou
Well, we often went to my grandmother, and my grandmother lived in a beautiful flat in the Christian part of Beirut. We lived in the Muslim part, and she had a big balcony. And in Lebanon, everybody has a kind of like a mini barbecue, which is a rectangular metal box on legs, short legs, where you do a charcoal fire and then you put the grill, and then you grill whatever you want. And in. This is kind of politically incorrect because they're little birds. But in fig season, we used to love having these little birds that fed on figs and my uncles would hunt them. I mean, I'm talking about more than 50 years ago. Okay, sure, it was politically correct then. It's not anymore because they're endangered. But, you know, we'd have kebabs, you know, or chicken wings or quail, you know, flattened butterflied quail, depending on what. Or kafta, you know, the minced meat with parsley and onion. It depend.
- [14:31]
Interviewer
There's a chapter in the book dedicated to cooking with yogurt sauces. What's important to remember when cooking with yogurt?
- [14:39]
Anissa Helou
You have to stabilize the yogurt. It's absolutely essential. So yogurt will break if you over. If you let it boil very hard and if you don't stabilize it. So some people will stabilize it, stabilize it with cornstarch and others with egg. I like to do it with egg because it's. I find that the texture is finer and so you need to stir it all the time and you need a sort of medium, low heat. And for me, you shouldn't let it boil too hard. Just bring it to a simmer and then add whatever you're cooking with it and bring it back to that simmer and serve it.
- [15:19]
Interviewer
There's a recipe for shish kebarak, tiny meat dumplings in yogurt sauce. And you write the first mention of the dish comes from a 15th century cookbook. What's the history of the dish?
- [15:31]
Anissa Helou
Well, I think, you know, it's kind of in. I think in that 15th century recipe, I don't think they're cooked in yogurt, but they are dumplings. So dumplings exist everywhere in the world almost. And you know, I, I'm, I'm assuming that the medieval dumplings were not as tiny as the ones we make now. And maybe the mixture of meat inside was different. But in, in the, in the case of Shish Barak, the Lebanese modern. The modern Lebanese version, they're very, very tiny. And some people boil them before adding them to the yogurt sauce. Other people put them in the oven and crisp them up. And other people, like my mother, cook them immediately in the yogurt sauce. Oh, and this is what I like.
- [16:21]
Interviewer
My guest is Anissa Helou, author of the new cookbook Lebanon Cooking. The Foods of My Homeland is out tomorrow. And Also tomorrow at 7pm Anissa will be speaking at the Museum of Food and Drink. You include a whole section about stuffed pastries? Yes, both fried and baked when you think about the difference between the two, what is the main difference between the dough that is used for fried pastries and the dough is used for baked pastries?
- [16:48]
Anissa Helou
Well, I think it's the same dough, although sometimes it's a dough that has a lot of oil in it. So it's a kind of flaky dough. So when you fry it, it becomes even flakier because it bubbles up and it kinds of becomes a bit like puff pastry, but it's not puff pastry. And when it bakes, if you brush it with oil, it get even flakier. I mean, before putting them in the oven. But it can be the same dough and it can be a dough made with milk, but that's more Syrian than Lebanese.
- [17:22]
Alison Stewart
What is your favorite thing to stuff in pastries?
- [17:26]
Anissa Helou
I think I love stuffing with labneh. So, yeah, I mean, love it.
- [17:33]
Alison Stewart
Got it in my.
- [17:33]
Anissa Helou
Got it in my refrigerator right now. So if you mix a bit of tomato and butter and onion with the labneh and spice it with like, cinnamon and all spice and all this, and then the labneh has to be very dry. Then you put it in and you make the fattire, which are the triangles, and you, you roast it in the oven, you bake it in the oven. Then when you bite into it, you've got this hot pastry, and then all of a sudden the labneh, which doesn't really melt, but kind of flows into your mouth with all these flavors, the spices, the onion and the tomato. It's like. It's like a madeleine moment, really.
- [18:15]
Alison Stewart
I want to ask you about fish dishes. Given the sort of the coastal element of Lebanon, there aren't that many fish dishes in your book. What's a fish dish in the book that you'd like to give a shout out to? And maybe is there an explanation why fish is not that important?
- [18:35]
Anissa Helou
Well, it is important. It's because it's important that it doesn't have very many, like, recipes for it. Because fish has always been expensive in Lebanon because there isn't that much in the sea and it's only coastal. So you don't have it all over the country. I mean, you do now because there's transport, but in the days before, easy transport. So there is very valued, it's very priced, and basically it's either good barbecued, put it roasted in the oven or fried. They love frying it and eating it with fried pita and a tahini sauce, very lemony tahini sauce. But in the north, they have these spicy fish Sauces and. Which I love. So the fish is either stuffed. There are different ways of doing a spicy fish, which is called sam kehara. So my mother used to kind of make a mixture of cilantro, walnuts, garlic, and pine nuts and. And a bit of onion, and then stuff the fish and bake it. But then you can also make a tahini sauce with the walnuts and the cilantro and all this in a. In a pan, cook it until there's a little bit of oil on the tahini. So the tahini cooks, and then you pour it over the fish. And then there's a plain cilantro sauce with. With onion, which actually, my friends, I did a kind of some cahara tasting while I was researching the book for my friends, and I was very surprised that they preferred the very plain version. Ah, interesting. Yeah.
- [20:09]
Alison Stewart
In this book, what is the most unusual recipe that you found?
- [20:14]
Anissa Helou
Well, I would say the most extravagant recipe is the kind of stuffed zucchini with stuffed vine leaves and a chicken all cooked at the same time. And the chicken is wrapped in cheesecloth, and the stuffed zucchini and stuffed vine leaves are around it, and the sauce is very lemony. And then. And the chicken is stuffed with rice and meat and. And pine nuts. And it's, like, so extravagant. For one thing, it takes forever to. To prepare, and then it's, like, very plentiful, so you have to have a lot of people around the table. And by the time I finished preparing it, I was dead. But I invited friends, and it is just like an amazing thing to have a whole chicken with all the stuffed vegetables around it, you know, on the platter, serving it. It's very unusual also, because I didn't know. I had never seen the chicken cooked with the stuffed vegetables, but it was a friend in the south who told me about it.
- [21:13]
Alison Stewart
Let's end on dessert. What's your favorite dessert in the recipe
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Anissa Helou
in the cookbook Knefe? Without a doubt.
- [21:20]
Alison Stewart
Oh, tell me what it is.
- [21:21]
Anissa Helou
It's a kind of very sweet cheese pie that you eat. Yeah, it's a cheese pie that. But very sweet because it's. It's covered with sugar syrup, and you eat it in a sort of sesame bread that looks like a handbag, and the whole thing is dripping with syrup. And you eat it for breakfast. So you can imagine what a calorie shock it is at the beginning of the day.
- [21:46]
Interviewer
And in terms of something simple like pita, if I want to make it at home, give me a piece of advice.
- [21:54]
Anissa Helou
You have to let the dough rest. Once you flatten it, it's very important. First you have to flatten it in quite an even round shape, like a circle, so that it puffs up evenly. And then you let it rest in between, you know, floured, we call it couch in baking terms, but flour, kitchen cloths. And you let it rest for 10, 15 minutes. So the dough has rested and then you put it in a very hot oven, preferably on a hot stone, and then it puffs up very quickly and it's like magic. And you think it's very easy, but it's not that easy.
- [22:32]
Interviewer
So your advice is let it rest. Yeah, just let it rest. My guest is Anissa. Hello. She's the author of the new cookbook Lebanon Cooking the Foods of My Homeland.
- [22:43]
Alison Stewart
It is out tomorrow.
- [22:44]
Interviewer
Also tomorrow at 7pm, Anissa will be speaking at the Museum of Food and Drink. Thank you so much for making the time to be with us today.
- [22:53]
Anissa Helou
Thank you, Alison.
- [22:55]
Interviewer
And that is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow.
- [23:06]
Anissa Helou
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- [23:12]
Anissa Helou
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- [23:18]
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- [23:19]
Anissa Helou
It feels good to Geico.
- [23:21]
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There's an SUV that turns the unthinkable into the unforgettable. The new Nissan Pathfinder. Built for big adventures and all that family chaos. It's powered by a strong V6 engine with a nine speed automatic transmission. Inside, it's rugged and capable, but still premium and tech forward with room for up to eight passengers. It's also available with seven passenger seating and second row captain's chairs. With massive hauling capability. Now you can bring all the gear you and your family need for unforgettable Adventures. The new V6 Nissan Pathfinder. Power your adventure.