Podcast Summary:

All Of It – "A Magical Journey to Golden-Age Spain from Leigh Bardugo"

Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Leigh Bardugo
Date: April 9, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode explores the inspiration, historical context, and themes behind Leigh Bardugo’s latest fantasy novel, The Familiar, set in Golden-Age Spain. Bardugo discusses her meticulous research process, the dangers faced by conversos (Jews who converted to Christianity), the nuances of creating a magical system rooted in Ladino culture, and the driving ambitions and relationships of her heroine, Lucia. Listeners are treated to insights on Spanish history, identity, and the art of weaving fantasy and historical fiction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Opening Passage and Narrative Purpose

• [02:49] Bardugo reads from the first page of The Familiar, showing how small daily events can lead to larger tragedies.
  • Quote:
    "If the bread hadn't burned, this would be a different story... Then no one would have had to suffer anything but a bowl full of melancholy clams."
    — Leigh Bardugo ([02:55])
• Purpose of the Opening:
  • Bardugo wanted to create a fairy-tale atmosphere with an omniscient narrator.
  • Chose not to start with Lucia directly; her protagonist is "ignored and invisible," which is central to her survival and the narrative.
    — Bardugo ([04:11])

2. Historical Context: The Spanish Inquisition & Conversos

• Why Golden-Age Spain?
  • The era was rich in art and turmoil, notably marked by the Spanish Inquisition, which Bardugo researched deeply.
  • Spanish Inquisition was especially insidious due to anonymous accusations, unique tortures, and being a tool for personal rivalries, not just religious policing.
    • Ex: A man was accused by someone wanting to take over his spice shop.
      — Bardugo ([05:07])
• Jewish Heritage and Personal Connections:
  • Bardugo traces her ancestry back to Spain, explaining how many Jews were given the ultimatum to convert or leave in 1492.
    • Most of her ancestors left; some converted and disappeared from the family tree, inspiring her to "redraw that branch" through writing.
      — Bardugo ([06:33])
• From Convivencia to Persecution:
  • Bardugo explains the shift from an era of relative interfaith harmony to exclusion after the Christian Reconquista.
  • Converts (conversos and Moriscos) and their descendants faced lasting discrimination under "limpieza de sangre" (purity of blood) laws, capping their social mobility for generations.
    — ([08:01]–[10:08])

3. Research: Daily Life & Material Culture

• Challenges of Historical Accuracy:
  • Documented political/religious details are plentiful; everyday life is harder to reconstruct.
  • Bardugo worked with a research assistant and historians. She shares an anecdote about mistakenly including carrots, which did not exist in Renaissance Spain.
    — Bardugo ([10:33])
  • Quote:
    "I'm going to be honest with you and say it was a huge pain in the butt..."
    — Bardugo ([10:33])

4. Magic System: Language, Identity, and the Power of the Diaspora

• Small-Scale, Uncertain Magic:

  • Magic in the novel is nearly indistinguishable from fraud, mirroring the scientific beliefs of the 16th century (alchemy, astrology, etc.).

  • Lucia's magic is channeled through Ladino, the language of Spain's Jewish diaspora, and specifically through refranes (proverbs).

    • Example proverb: "Quien no risa no rosica" (Who does not laugh, does not bloom).

  • Ladino becomes a symbol of hidden power and identity.

    Quote:
    "Magic language becomes powerful in the way that it's used... it had grown more powerful by being kept secret, and it had grown more powerful by moving across the sea in exile and then returning to her in letters."
    — Bardugo ([13:52])

5. Character Motivations & Themes of Visibility

• Lucia’s Ambition vs. Safety:

  • Lucia seeks autonomy and visibility but also recognizes that being seen increases her peril.

  • The story pits individual drive against overwhelming historical forces.

    Quote:
    "...her ambition, her drive, means that in order for her to attain a better life... she wants to be recognized. She wants to be seen. And I think most of us can... we've been through this, right?"
    — Bardugo ([14:52])

• Modern Parallels:

  • Bardugo relates Lucia’s risks to the dangers of public attention today, especially for authors in the age of social media.

    Quote:
    "All we want as authors is for people to read our books. At the same time, the more attention you get, well, that can turn negative very quickly."
    — Bardugo ([15:43])

6. Major Characters and Their Complexities

• Aunt Huali:

  • A pragmatic survivor who has sacrificed her identity for security and prosperity. Lucia continually questions Huali’s motives.

    • Huali is described as always looking for "the next rung"—her position is precarious, always seeking more.

    Quotes:
    "Waleed loves the little silk. She loves some wine. She loves some figs."
    — Bardugo ([18:04]) "She's looking for the next rung. She knows how precarious her position is..."
    — Bardugo ([18:12])

• Santanel:

  • Lucia’s mentor, an immortal man who is weary and cynical after centuries of life but finds himself reinvigorated by Lucia’s presence.

    Quote:
    "Angel has been alive for a long time, and life has lost all savor for him... And then along comes this scullion with a gift for magic, but more importantly, who starts to surprise him."
    — Bardugo ([18:47])

7. Themes of Longevity, Pain, and Human Connection

• The Cost of Immortality:

  • Bardugo reflects on whether she would want to live forever, ultimately rejecting it:
    • "The more I've contemplated it... I think [immortality] would be too painful."
      — Bardugo ([19:58])

• Connection through Shared Struggle:

  • Lucia and Santanel both possess a depth of observation gained from lives spent in service. This observational skill, or "superpower," allows them to survive and connect.

    Quote:
    "...you have to be calibrating their moods all the time... That is actually kind of a superpower that they share, that they are constantly reading the people around them."
    — Bardugo ([20:39])

• Building Complex Characters:

  • The most compelling people (and characters) are those who continue to surprise and reveal new depths.
    — Bardugo ([21:39])

8. Writing for Adults vs. Young Adults

• Bardugo’s process for adult novels focuses more on iterative drafting and complexity. Adult fiction, in her experience, allows for more ambiguity and less finite resolutions than YA.

  Quote:
  "YA is a little more finite. We get to the prom, we get to the revolution. It's done."
  — Bardugo ([23:23])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the pain of research:
  "I'm going to be honest with you and say it was a huge pain in the butt..."
  — Leigh Bardugo ([10:33])

• On writing as a way to reclaim lost heritage:
  "For me, writing this book was kind of a way to redraw that branch."
  — Leigh Bardugo ([06:33])

• On public visibility:
  "All we want as authors is for people to read our books. At the same time, the more attention you get, well, that can turn negative very quickly."
  — Leigh Bardugo ([15:43])

• On magic and language:
  "Magic language becomes powerful in the way that it's used... and it had grown more powerful by moving across the sea in exile."
  — Leigh Bardugo ([13:52])

Timestamp Highlights

• [02:49] – Bardugo reads the novel’s opening
• [04:53] – Spanish Inquisition: unique methods and history
• [06:33] – Bardugo’s personal connection to 1492 Spain
• [08:01] – The shift from convivencia to persecution
• [10:33] – Researching daily life: anecdotes and difficulties
• [12:03] – Designing a historically plausible magic system
• [14:52] – Lucia's tension between ambition and safety
• [18:47] – Santanel’s immortality and philosophy on living
• [20:39] – Shared "superpower" of observational survival
• [22:13] – Differences in writing for adults vs. young adults

Tone and Style

Throughout the conversation, Bardugo is candid, witty, and reflective, blending deep historical insight with personal anecdotes and a passion for storytelling. Host Kusha Navadar guides the discussion with curiosity and a warm, conversational tone.

Summary Conclusion

This episode offers a rich exploration of the intersection between history, identity, and fiction, as Leigh Bardugo shares her creative process behind The Familiar. Listeners gain new understanding of Jewish Spanish history, the weight of secrecy and ambition, and the complexities of human connection, all while being entertained by Bardugo’s sharp storytelling and fascinating anecdotes. For fans of historical fantasy—and anyone interested in how we shape and are shaped by cultural narratives—this episode is a must-listen.