A New Gallery Show for 'The Drag Queens of New York'

Summary

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Podcast Summary: All Of It - "A New Gallery Show for 'The Drag Queens of New York'"

Host: David Fuerst (in for Alison Stewart)
Guests: Julian Fleischer (author, curator), Charles Busch (drag performer, playwright)
Airdate: October 28, 2025

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Episode Theme

This episode commemorates the 30th anniversary of The Drag Queens of New York: An Illustrated Field Guide with a discussion of its lasting cultural impact, the diversity of NYC’s drag scene in the 1990s, and a new gallery exhibition showcasing rarely seen photos, memorabilia, and interviews from that pivotal era in drag. The guests reflect on how drag has evolved over the decades—both what’s been gained and what’s been lost—as it’s moved from the underground into the mainstream.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins of the Book and Exhibition

• Julian Fleischer recounts his discovery of the East Village drag scene in the early ’90s:
  • He stumbled into clubs like Pyramid and Boy Bar and was inspired to document the creativity he saw ([01:55]).
  • The book emerged from a serendipitous conversation with an editor at Riverhead, which resulted in a contract and three years of research and writing.
  • Quote (Julian Fleischer):
    “I wandered into a couple of the best nightclubs in the area...and discovered these incredible drag performances. ...My friend, she was an editor at Riverhead, she said, you should write a book about this scene.” ([01:55])

2. The Book’s Initial Reception and Lasting Influence

• Both guests agree the book made a modest splash when first released, but its influence has grown over time as the public’s appreciation of drag has changed ([02:51]).
  • Quote (Charles Busch):
    “It's really good.” ([03:09])
  • Quote (Julian Fleischer):
    “I think I made you take it. I put it in your purse.” (about giving a copy to Charles, [02:59])

3. Diversity and Fiefdoms of NYC Drag in the 1990s

• Fleischer and Busch recall the varied drag subcultures across cable TV, theater, and nightclubs.
• Each venue had its "little fiefdoms" where certain performers reigned, creating micro-scenes within the scene ([05:18]).
  • Quote (Charles Busch):
    “There was theater drag, these certain different clubs that there were little fiefdoms where these different drag performers reigned...Pre-RuPaul’s Drag Race.” ([05:18])
• The drag world was bubbling up all over NYC, with increasing media attention, but without today’s mainstream visibility ([05:55]).

4. What to Expect at the Exhibition

• The exhibition displays large, film-based portraits by Brooke Williams and unique archival materials such as correspondence, notes, and legal memos from the book’s creation ([06:33]).
  • Visitors get glimpses “behind the scenes,” such as letters from publishers' lawyers about risqué content in the book.
  • Quote (Julian Fleischer):
    “The first thing you'll see is all of the portraits of the queens...gloriously reproduced, 24 inches tall...film has a way of really leaping off the page.” ([06:33-07:20])
  • Quote (Julian Fleischer):
    “Some of the letters from the lawyers, for example, at the publishing house asking me to justify ...‘Joey Arias fellates the microphone.’” ([08:18])

5. Differentiating Drag from Transvestism

• An archival audio segment from Sweetie (Daniel Booth, d. 2017) touches on misconceptions between drag and transvestism ([09:09])
  • Quote (Sweetie):
    “Drag is very much an attitude and style and play acting. ...Transvestism...they get a sexual feeling from putting on the clothes; that’s not for me.” ([09:21])
• Fleischer discusses how the book’s “field guide” format helped clarify these distinctions for readers ([10:03]).

6. Drag’s Shifting Place in the Mainstream

• Drag’s relationship with the mainstream was fraught with patronization and being the butt of jokes on TV ([12:30]).
  • Quote (Charles Busch):
    "You were kind of patronized. If there was any element of drag in what you’re doing, it was...dismissed." ([12:40])
  • Busch reflects on his efforts to be seen as a playwright and actor rather than simply a drag queen, in reaction to critical bias.

7. Then and Now: The Evolution and Commodification of Drag

• Fleischer notes that previously, drag was private and ephemeral—now, it's an international phenomenon ([13:35]).
  • Quote (Julian Fleischer):
    “Now that drag has become an international phenomenon...it's a very different vibe. ...Because it was underground. And underground means underground.” ([13:35])
• Busch worries that while NYC remains a haven, drag is facing renewed persecution elsewhere, referencing anti-drag backlash ([14:28]).

8. The “Field Guide” Approach and How Subjects Were Chosen

• Fleischer selected drag queens to profile based on personal taste and who stood out as essential voices—those who were “undeniably” the heart of the scene ([15:20]).
  • The book and exhibit capture a vibrant cross-section, from the best dancers to lip-synchers, archetypes, and outliers ([16:37]).

9. How the Art Form Has Changed

• The guests discuss how “RuPaul’s Drag Race” has standardized certain elements—splits, death drops, over-the-top performance—but some diversity and “art school” sensibility are lost ([17:00]).
  • Quote (Julian Fleischer):
    "The drag queen scene in the 90s...was like an art school scene. ...A lot of these queens...were creating something very vivid and unique." ([17:31])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Charles Busch on inclusion in the book:
  “I thought, gee, I don’t want to be a part of it, but I’ll be really upset if I’m not included in it. But isn’t that life anyway?” ([03:33])
• Julian Fleischer, summing up the exhibit’s emotional aim:
  “I want them to feel joy and delight and a sense of wonder and a sense of pride...in what New York is capable of delivering to itself and its people.” ([06:33])
• Charles Busch, recalling mainstream success while bristling at labels:
  “I wrote this play with a wild title, Vampire Lesbians of Sodom. ...And it ran for five years. So that was certainly very mainstream.” ([11:58])
• Sweetie (Daniel Booth) on drag vs. transvestism:
  “Drag is very much an attitude and style and play acting...I really believe transvestism...they get a sexual feeling from putting on the clothes; that's not for me.” ([09:21])

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:08 – Introduction & background on The Drag Queens of New York book and exhibit
• 01:55 – Fleischer describes the book's genesis and scene discovery
• 02:51 – Impact and slow-burn influence of the book
• 03:24 – Charles Busch’s introduction to drag, identity tensions
• 05:18 – On the richness and variety of ’90s NYC drag
• 06:33 – What to expect at the exhibition: photos, letters, memorabilia
• 08:59 – Audio clip: Sweetie (Daniel Booth) on drag vs. transvestism
• 10:03 – Fleischer discusses defining drag and book’s structure
• 11:21 – The value of audio archives and the risk of unairable content
• 12:40 – Mainstream drag and cultural patronization; Busch’s frustration with “drag queen” label
• 13:35 – How the exhibit captures drag’s movement from underground to mainstream
• 14:28 – The threats facing drag outside NYC, anti-drag climate
• 15:20 – Fleischer on profiling the right performers; who made the book
• 17:00 – How the art form has changed post-RuPaul: standardization vs. earlier diversity and artistry

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode balances humor, nostalgia, and deep cultural reflection, with guests bantering lightly but also taking care to honor both the gritty, creative past and today’s challenges. The language is direct and affectionate, with an emphasis on pride, artistic ingenuity, and the enduring resilience of New York’s drag community.

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For more: The Drag Queens of New York 30th Anniversary exhibition runs through November 30th at Howell Arts, 250 Bowery, NYC.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

It'S all of it on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. This fall marks 30 years since the book the Drag Queens of New An Illustrated Field Guide first hit shelves, giving readers a front row seat to the city's underground performance scene in the 1990s. Now there is an exhibit celebrating the book and all of the drag queens who contributed to that era. There are lots of never before seen photos, audio interviews and handwritten notes showing how they shaped the scene. You will see names like Lipsinka, Lady Bunny, Aphrodite, and one of our next guests, Charles Bush. The Drag Queens of New York 30th anniversary exhibition is on display through Sunday, November 30th at Howell Arts on the second floor of their 250 Bowery street location. And joining us to discuss is Charles Bush. He's an actor, scre, drag performer and playwright. Charles, welcome to all of it.

[C]

Well, wonderful being here.

[B]

Also with us, singer, writer, producer, performer and author of the Drag Queens of New York and illustrated field guide Julian Fleischer, who also helped to curate the new show. Welcome to all of it.

[D]

Thank you very much. Happy to be here.

[B]

So after all those titles, I think we're out of time.

[D]

Well, I'm also a previous host here on wnyc.

[B]

Fantastic.

[D]

Well, qxr, to be very specific.

[B]

I clearly didn't have enough room in all this.

[D]

I know, I'm sorry. I get bored.

[B]

Well, tell me about this book. This is going back 30 years now. The Drag Queens of New An Illustrated Field Guide. This was published all the way back in 1996.

[D]

Correct.

[B]

How did the idea for this 30th anniversary exhibition come about?

[D]

Well, to be honest, it was one of those unexpected moments of serendipity. I was hanging out with some friends. I recently moved to the East Village. The East Village of yore and lore of yesteryear. I've lived in apartment in the East Village now for over 30 years. And when I first moved there, I was going out at night. I was a young man, you know, out there having a good time, checking out the scene. And I wandered into a couple of the best nightclubs in the area, the Pyramid and the Boy Bar, and discovered these incredible drag performances. And after regaling a friend of mine over drinks one night, she was an editor at Riverhead, she said, you know, you should write a book about this scene. You should write a book about it. And I said, if you can give me in advance, I will do that. And that's what happened. She offered me a Contract with Riverhead, which is, you know, a Penguin imprint. And the next thing I knew, I was spending almost three years working on this book.

[B]

What was the impact of the book when it first came out?

[A]

Small.

[B]

I think.

[D]

No, I mean, I think the impact.

[C]

I have a copy or you gave it to me.

[D]

I think I made you take it. I put it in your purse.

[B]

Wow, that is small. You're really getting micro impact there.

[D]

I think the impact of it over time has grown.

[C]

It's really good.

[B]

And that's all that matters.

[A]

It's really good.

[B]

Well, Charles, you're one of the many performers included in this exhibition. Tell us about your introduction into the drag scene.

[C]

Well, the thing is, actually, when Julian. Justin.

[D]

Come on, grandma.

[C]

He asked if, you know, if I'd be part of this book. And, you know, at that point, oh, I did not identify with being a drag queen. You know, I was so trying to impress upon everyone that I was a playwright and an actor who did all these plays and played a character, different character in each play. It just happened. Most of them, I played a female character, but I didn't see my costume as being dragged. It's just I'm wearing the costume, so I kind of was kicking and screaming going into it. At the same time, I thought, gee, I don't want to be a part of it, but I'll be really upset if I'm not included in it. But isn't that life anyway?

[D]

In general, I would say so. And I think it's fair to say that, Charles, you know, the beautiful thing about the New York drag scene, especially as it was in the 90s, is that it encompassed legions, you know, And Charles is really, I think, a product of the theater, as is Lipsinka, who's also in the book. Whereas most of the queens came up through the club scene, which was a very different kind of aesthetic, a different vibe. But there's room for everybody in this book.

[C]

And that was. I thought it was so interesting, the way you structured it as this bird field guide that, I mean, it was so clever. And I didn't really understand when first I knew was this accomplished jazz singer. He's writing a book. How's he writing a book? But it's so clever that it works on all these different levels. So I was really glad that you talked me into it.

[B]

Charles, what else was special about the New York City drag scene in the 1990s?

[C]

Maybe because it was so varied. And that's really, I think, what the exhibit and the book shows, that there was, you know, Cable tv, drag, there was theater drag, these certain different clubs that there were little fiefdoms where these different drag performers reigned and yet and wouldn't move to another place. It was just. It was fascinating that there was so much. This is all, you know, pre RuPaul's Drag Race, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so, you know, there was such a wide variety.

[D]

Yeah, I was gonna say there was a sense, you know, both sort of all the way from downtown up to midtown, the drag was bubbling up in a way that was undeniable. It was exciting. Everybody could feel it. You know, drag queens were starting to show up in gossip pages and in magazines. And, you know, RuPaul was on, you know, the sort of midway through that crazy climb. And there was a real sense that, wow, drag might not get bigger than this. So let's get it into a book now. You know, there was a sense that this is it. We are riding the wave.

[B]

Well, Julian, what can people see when they come to this show, this exhibition? And what do you want people to feel when they come to this show?

[D]

That's a really good question. I want them to feel joy and delight and a sense of wonder and a sense of pride, I guess, in what New York is capable of delivering to itself and its people. When you come to the show, which has been curated beautifully by Aldo Hernandez and Kevin Maloney and myself with the help of Doug Ressler, the first thing you'll see is all of the portraits of the queens. And these portraits were taken by my friend Brooke Williams, wonderful artist and multi hyphenate herself at the time. She was taking beautiful pictures, hired her to do this. And the photos and the portraits are all outtakes from the sessions that we did at the time.

[B]

From the book.

[D]

Yeah. So while anybody who has a copy of the book will know these portraits, well, these are different shots from the same sessions, and they are gloriously reproduced, 24 inches tall. You know, these were shot on film, so the look of them is extraordinary. I mean, the film holds up in a way that's very different from digital photography. You know, I don't want to, as we said earlier, I don't want to be an old man shaking my fists at young people, but film has a way of really leaping off the page. So first thing you'll notice are these extraordinary photographs taken by my friend Brooke. And then under glass are all the notes and the ephemera, the surveys, the correspondences between me and the drag queens over the two and a half years I was writing the book. And some of it truly has to be seen to be believed. Some of the letters from the lawyers, for example, at the publishing house asking me to justify the things that I wrote about in the book. These are my responses to those lawyers. You know, for example, Mr. Fleischer, please justify the statement that Joey Arias fellates the microphone.

[C]

Cause he might have sued you. You mean?

[D]

That's what they're afraid of. I mean, Joey Arias would be the last person to sue you over that. It's because you have to say to the lawyer like, well, go see Joey Arias. You know, and it's part of Joey's genius is how he folds, you know, this ribald stuff into these beautiful concerts of his.

[B]

We are speaking with Julian Fleischer and Charles Bush about this new exhibition, the Drag Queens of New York at 30. And I want to play a clip. This is an interview that you had with a drag performer named Sweetie, aka Daniel Booth.

[D]

Correct.

[B]

Who unfortunately passed away in 2017. In this clip, he's sharing what his mother thought of drag at the time.

[E]

My mother doesn't really understand drag because she's never seen it. She's seen my television show.

[D]

What, on video?

[E]

Yeah, I brought her videotape of my.

[D]

Television show.

[E]

And she's entertained by it. But I think drag to her has the stigma of being like transvestism, which it's not. No, I don't see drag and transvestism even really close to each other, except you're in a dress. You know, I tried to make some of those points. Drag is very much an attitude and style and play acting where I really believe transvestism. I have some friends who I would consider transvestites. You know, they get a sexual feeling from putting on the clothes that's not for me.

[D]

So I call that cross dressing.

[B]

Julian, Charles, do you want to respond to these thoughts?

[D]

I mean, first of all, I'm just. I'm overwhelmed listening to my third 30 year old me. I mean, 30 years ago, 20 something year old me, you know, back then having. Trying to eat the Berber chicken at Yaffa Cafe while talking with Saweetie about stuff I was learning about for the first time myself. You know, I was figuring out how to write about drag. So I was interviewing these queens and I think this is a rather typical sentiment that Sweetie, the late, great Sweetie, may she rest in peace, describes. There's a lot of confusion when it comes to gender play. And I spend a lot of time early in the book. And this is why the field guide trope seems to work, trying to tease out what I'M not talking about in the book.

[B]

And I should mention, at the exhibition, we hear audio playing in certain spaces. Right. And there's also video elements as well.

[D]

Correct. We unearthed everything there was in the archive of my work to lay bare the process of putting the book together for people and including dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of hours of audio like you just listened to. Although much of it I couldn't bring here today, because when you interview a drag queen or a bunch of them, it's all unbroadcastable.

[B]

I see.

[D]

So, I mean, sadly, what I brought you all comes off sounding a little bit austere, kind of a little serious, because those are the few moments we could actually put on the air.

[B]

Charles. Throughout its history, drag was often driven underground due to anti LGBTQ persecution. But people knew about it.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

You really put her on the spot.

[C]

Well, yeah. I mean, there's always some adventurous person who's, you know, what parts of drag.

[B]

Culture were mainstream, if any, in the 1990s?

[D]

Me.

[B]

You.

[D]

Fair enough. You're speaking to a legend. Someone.

[B]

Well, it's great to have a legend with us.

[C]

I wrote this play with a wild title, Vampire Lesbians of Sodom. And we actually started it off at a club in Alphabet City, the Limbo Lounge, which wasn't a drag club. It was an art gallery, kind of after hours bar. And then we transferred it rather quickly to a regular Off Broadway theater, the provincetown playhouse on McDougal Street. And it ran for five years. So that was certainly very mainstream.

[D]

There was also the television episodes of TV that had drag feature, but it was always the. The butt of the joke was different on a national sense.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And the thing was, it became difficult for people like Lipsenka and me was that, you know, you were kind of patronized. If there was any element of drag in what you're doing, it was kind of like you're kind of dismissed in a way. That's why, you know, like, I took umbrage at the time, and I get embarrassed when I look at old interviews I gave where, oh, my God, I was so defensive about the word drag queen. Never use that word around me, because I was not convinced that when I would be called a drag queen by a critic reviewing a play of mine, that there wasn't some sort of patronization, dismissal in it.

[B]

Can you talk more about that evolution and perhaps what this new exhibition captures about the changes over the past 30 years?

[D]

I think I can. I think I can. When I was, you know, thinking about the exhibit and what I wanted it to convey was the big difference is that back then in the 90s and obviously before then, drag was not for general consumption. It was all happening in that room on that night between the performer and the audience. And there was a sense of something very private, very unique, very ephemeral about it. And that was the beauty of it. So now the drag has become an international phenomenon and drag queens no longer joke about getting rich. They are getting rich. It's a very different vibe. And how it subverts, if it even can, is different now than it used to. And, you know, I don't want to. I'm not saying it's not good or fun or important. It's just very different because it was underground. And underground means underground.

[C]

Well, it might be pushed underground, the way things are going. I mean, I think in places outside of New York, I think from what I read about and hear about, that so many people are kind of being bullied out of performing or attending events.

[B]

Like drag story time, storytelling events. Yeah.

[C]

So I think it's going back to 1952.

[B]

Well, how did you first decide when you were working on this book, when you're starting to profile this community and learning about it, what drew you to thinking, this is something I have to cover? And how did you decide who to profile?

[D]

I decided whom to profile based purely on my own taste once I got the gig, and it was basically a side hustle at the time, it was a way to make some money to support my burgeoning singing career, which is still burgeoning, I'm afraid. But at any rate, he's very good.

[E]

Thank you, Jazz.

[B]

And where do you sing?

[D]

I appear a lot at Joe's Pub, at the Public, or at Bam or Symphony Space, all the not for profit joints in town, including the Green Space, when it used to be a thing.

[B]

The Green Space down at the bottom.

[D]

Floor, downstairs here at WNYC at New York Public. Rad. I started just going to see more drag than ever. I was spending a lot of money on cover charges. A lot of money on drinks and then a lot of money on meals, taking drag queen performers out to eat.

[B]

And then that's how you blew that whole advance.

[D]

Oh, yeah. There was nothing left at that event. Let me just be clear, that 20 grand does not last long. Over three years in taxes and cover charges. So it was just the people I was drawn to. But I think if you were to do it today, you would find yourself drawn to the same people because they emerge undeniably out of the fauna, out of the flora comes the fauna. And you say, like, oh, these are the people you have to write about.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, you really do have a wonderful cross section of who really were the prominent voices.

[D]

Yeah. Who the best drag queens really were, the best lip synchers, the best dancers.

[C]

The best looks and the archetypes and then the people sort of fanning out from that.

[B]

In our last few seconds here, how do you think the art form has changed over the years?

[C]

Well, you know, again, I don't want to be the old person who's like, oh, back in the day we were, you know. No, but I mean, I think what, you know, really, RuPaul's Drag Race has become this international phenomenon and it's been. Generations of young people have been inspired by it. But there does become a certain uniform element of what it is to be a drag queen doing the splits and death.

[B]

Oh, that. We lose some of the diversity of.

[D]

The drag queen scene in the 90s, if I may, was like an art school scene in a way. Like a lot of these queens, the taboos and the happy faces and the Hatties were artists, so they were creating something very vivid and unique.

[B]

All right, well, the Drag Queens of New York 30th anniversary exhibition is on display through Sunday, November 30th. Oh, my birthday. At Howell Arts on the second floor of their 250 Bowery location.

[D]

Sagittarius.

[B]

Julian Fleischer and Charles Bush, thank you for joining us today.

[D]

What a pleasure. Thanks for having us.

[F]

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[A]

I'm Ira Plato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.