D (3:35)

and

E (3:36)

what goes on in these settings. So that's how it took place.

B (3:43)

Dr. Seisel, what was your reaction when Alexis approached you with this idea?

D (3:51)

Alexei and I met at a conference, a group psychotherapy conference, actually, at the end of a lecture. And when we got together to talk about the possibility of his researching this project, I invited him to become a member of a group, thinking that the best way to learn about group is to actually participate in the process as fully as possible. So that Alexei was invited in not as a researcher, but as another person who is curious about himself and about his relationships. Group is a wonderful place to learn about those two things. So I welcome his participation without any understanding about how it would unfold and what it might lead to.

B (4:37)

Why was it interesting to you to participate in the film?

D (4:41)

Well, as time developed, a couple things come to mind. My undergraduate education was in economics, but I was always visually involved. I was someone who could draw. And in my last year of college, I think I made a. I think I made a short documentary. So film was always of interest to me and. And I was curious as I emerged from those early years, to find out more about myself. I was a 22 year old. I was directionless, depressed and in need of treatment. So I got myself into treatment and the interest in film took a backseat. And for the next 50 years or so, I devoted myself to developing the art and craft of being a psychoanalyst and then a group analyst as well, group therapist as well. When Alexei arrived and we started having these conversations, it occurred to me that there's a great deal that can be accomplished in helping demystify the process of group. And that this vehicle that he was creating would be a wonderful way to introduce a wider population to the power of group, to what can happen to people in group treatment. And it was that that motivated me to sign on. Took them a year to convince me to be on camera.

E (6:13)

It did, because, you know, as any would do with all important decision in life, say, well, let's bring it to group. So when I came not only with the idea That I wanted to make a series or a film about group therapy, but also to have Elliot play the part of the group leader. The pushback from the group was as strong or stronger, and it really became a one year process to convince them.

B (6:44)

Thomas, let's get you in on this conversation. When did the project come to you?

C (6:53)

When Alexei reached out. Alexei and I had worked together in the past, and he's somebody whose artistic sensibility and artistic courage, which I guess is a polite way of saying madness, is something that I trust implicitly. Alexei and I worked together some years ago on a project that I thought was equally as fascinating and fun. And we had a really extraordinary time working together. And when he reached out to me, I said, oh, God, this is great. Another opportunity to work with Lexi on something that is going to be utterly unique, which is usually the sort of work that he creates. And, you know, when he explained to me exactly what the process was going to be, I was terrified. It was unlike anything that I had sort of ever done before. The idea of improvising an entire film is. Is a pretty terrifying prospect for somebody who's trained in the theater. And I knew also that that meant it was exactly where I needed to go artistically. If I'm that scared and that resistant to the idea, then that's. That means it's gonna teach me something. And so off we went.

B (8:11)

Yeah, it's kind of amazing in the film, you realize that it is based on sort of a scripted outline, but that the dialogue is improvisational. Thomas, how did that work?

C (8:24)

Well, you know, we sat down with Alexei. He told us who we were as characters, what it was that we were hiding, what it was we wanted to accomplish, and then sort of, you know, kicked us in the butt into the room and turned on the cameras and said, go. And, you know, in between takes, he would, you know, come and say, okay, great, great, great. Here's some important story points that I think that we need to sort of stay on to move this thing forward. One of the great problems of having improvisation is that everybody, all improvisers, become the focus of their own story. And it can become a little bit muddy. And so having Alexei there with a sense of the overarching story that he wanted to tell, just to come in and suggest, let's stick more on this. Let's stick a little bit more on this. And then, you know, we would shoot these 90 minute takes. We would shoot actual 90 minute group therapy sessions together. And then, you know, after a few of those in a day, we'd go home and I don't know about anybody else, but just stare blankly at the ceiling and sort of attempt to reassemble yourself psychologically.

B (9:45)

Dr. Zeissel, that's kind of interesting. I wondered for you was, was the improvisation difficult for you, or is that part of what you do?

D (9:53)

In many ways, that's a wonderful way of thinking about it. I was not acting. I was just doing my job. So in the work, I'm trained to follow the group, follow the process in the group, and I was paying attention to what the actors were producing in real time and just responding as I'm trained to train to bridge people together, to understand and name resistant behavior, to invite exploration of certain hesitations that people have in revealing something about themselves or in engaging other people in the moment. So for me, it was just another day at the office. In a way, what was more difficult was that the hair and makeup process was not familiar to me. I had to get there early for hair and makeup. But apart from that, it was a day at the office. And the only acting I did comes at the very end of the film.

B (10:57)

We don't want to give that away. Alexei, do you remember a moment that surprised you?

E (11:07)

Many moments? Luckily, let's say mostly a good surprise, which was in the first two, three minutes. I knew that with the rules of the game that I had set, which is uninterrupted takes, I would not stop and say, okay, let's do it again. Let's do this scene again. It was great, but push a little less, Push a little more. The test would be after two minutes of the first take of the first day. I was behind the monitor. I had my headphones on, and that was where I realized that the actors were doing something in between reality and illusion. They were really fully one foot in each, and they were doing it. So they were actually during the time, the sort of here and now of a group session. They were in the here and now of what actors studio actors train themselves in, which is don't come with an agenda. Just follow the flow of what's going on with this group. And this is where Dr. Zeissel wonderful intelligence, skill and intuition about stay in the moment, don't go in the future, don't go in the past. In the future, you're going to get anxious. In the past, you're going to be depressed. But in the present, you can let things happen to what's going on between you and the other characters. So the actors became characters, the characters became the actors and inhabited that wonderful space. In between. That's what I wanted to film. It was the big, wonderful surprise that it was happening even with people who had not trained for this for years.

B (12:50)

It sounds like live radio. You have to stay present in the moment.

E (12:57)

A number of actors start noticing after having done the film that more than one occasion in life starts to be similar. You put people in a room that don't necessarily are, you know, know one another. They haven't been long life friends. But very quickly, sometimes something, you know, unusual happens, which is a real connection between people who don't know one another so well. We're not family members who are not old friends. All of a sudden it clicks. And so you start noticing things looking like a group therapy conversation going on in lots of other situations in life.

B (13:34)

I'm speaking with Alexi Lloyd, writer, director of the new film group the Schopenhauer Effect. Actor Thomas Sadowski is also here, along with Dr. Elliot Zeisel, who co star in the film Group is currently screening at the Quad Cinema. Dr. Seisel, you said that your character doc says that he sees himself, that group therapy is often depicted terribly on screen. What mistakes do you see, the way group therapy is depicted in media?

D (14:04)

Well, I think for the most part, group therapy is not very well understood as a modality in the field of mental health in general and in the population for sure. And in the past, anytime it's been portrayed in film or television, it's been the butt of a joke. And I think the contribution that this film makes is that it is, in a way, a public mental health service. It's a public mental health service because it really does portray the deep inner work that can happen between people. It happens between people in group, member to member. It happens between member and leader. And in that process, you get to see parts of yourself. When one person in group is talking, they're speaking for at least four or five other people in the group. So through the process of identification, you're learning throughout the process. And I think we captured something unique. The group of actors, I think, sound more like an ensemble theater group than they do sound like movie actors. A fair thing to say, Tommy.

C (15:15)

You know, forgive me for disagreeing. I think we sound more like a jazz band.

D (15:22)

Oh, even better.

B (15:24)

Okay, explain yourself, Tom.

C (15:26)

I think that in this sort of fantastic way, you know, again, sort of landing back with improvisation as an art form, particularly an art form that I was always sort of resistant and terrified of. What I realized is that what happens when all of the instruments get on the same page, when they all get on the same flow, when they all get on the same beat, is that it's a constant surprise between which notes are being played and which notes are not being played. And more often than not, only the people in the. In the flow together on that stage know which notes are being played and which notes are not being played. And I think that's exactly what happened with us. You know, I love actors. I love working with actors. I also know that there is a way in which I will fall victim to the expectation of performance that I think evaporates in a. In a way that I have only witnessed in jazz.

D (16:37)

And.

C (16:37)

And it was something that we experienced in that room in a way that I'd never seen before between a group of actors on a. On a. Working on the same thing together.

B (16:46)

Thomas, what did you learn about group therapy while working on this film?

C (16:50)

Everything. I came in completely raw. I had had no experience with it at all. And Alexei and Doc and a couple of very generous souls agreed to sort of put me through my paces in one session up at Doc's house in upstate New York, where we drove up and went through it for a little while. And what an extraordinary experience that was. And then cast to the Wolves exactly as I should have been, you know, in this experience. And from it. I learned so much about the value of this as a modality, but I learned so much about the value of this in terms of, you know, the way that the 12 step recovery rooms help people sort of find community that they. That helps put the training wheels on your bike as you go back out into humanity and learn to live a sober life from whatever it is. Group does very much the same thing. It allows you to sort of work through whatever it is that you've got in a safe environment. Not that the idea of safety is one that is required or even expected in group, but you don't.

E (18:09)

You.

C (18:09)

You're not going to suffer the potential physical consequences of telling somebody exactly what you think of them in a group therapy room the way that you would out in the world. So you work through that stuff and find ways to come to communion with. With humanity. And I'm amazed by it. And I think it's an incredible tool, not only for people, but especially for artists.

B (18:32)

There are parameters that happen in Group Therapy, Dr. Seisel. But the members of group, they can practice their desires is one thing. I think that's what Doc says in the film. What does that mean, practice their desires? And how is it useful in group therapy?

D (18:51)

So as sentient creatures, we have three ways of expressing ourselves. We can feel things first through our body. We can feel things and then express them through action, or we can feel things and express them with language. We can discharge the tension by speaking. And group is a wonderful place to expand your capacity to tolerate the stimulation of life with people. So in group, you'll find in the character of the other members, you'll find people who matter to you. You'll find your mother, your father, your sister, your brother, your partner, your boss, your co worker. And in the same way that those people stimulate you for better or for worse, you'll have reactions in group that stretch your emotional system. And if, for example, you have an interest in developing a capacity for relationships, you can talk in group. As Tommy pointed out, there are safety measures built into group. Nobody leaves their seat, nobody acts anything out. So you're again invited to expand your emotional capacity by speaking. And if you're stimulated by somebody, if you're either in love with them or you're hating them at the moment, you get to put that into language in the service of understanding. And if you keep practicing that and you keep inviting yourself into an awareness of just how that bubbles up inside of you and what you can do to put language to it, you do that for six months in group, and then you take that outside and you'll find yourself having an ability that you didn't know you had. You'll find yourself doing things that you would before then be frightened or terrified to, to try out with people.

E (20:36)

You know, it reminds me of, you know, we were looking for a good, perfect title for the project, and one of them that came, we decided not to use, because it's a bit too much of a cliche, is the fact that, that the origin of psychoanalysis, it was called the Talking Cure. So we thought, oh, should we use the talking cure? No, that's too much of a cliche, though. It's kind of a good title. Depending on, you know, on the day on Monday, I say, oh, that's perfect. It's just do that. And Tuesday I say, I know that's really too much. But the Talking Cure is the reason why I could see the bridge between the art of filmmaking, the art of acting, and trying to find that setting. Group therapy is such a perfect space where language is, or where people are pushed to use language in a different way than they do with their family, with their friends, with their colleagues, because they are invited to mix the subconscious, the unconscious, if it can, or the subconscious and the conscious in a sort of dance that can only happen when it is not scripted. So I'm coming back to the fact that why was it not scripted? Is that this type of conversation needs a level of spontaneity, a level of letting go of control, of letting go of. I want to say this and I need to control. Control the way I say it that, you know, in order for me to be able to film this language of emotions that are not the controlled part of it, but the less controlled part of it. And film this. This is what I wanted to film. You know, it allows, you know, which sort of takes us to the Schopenhauer reference. Because, you know, for Schopenhauer, one of the interesting thing ideas of Schopenhauer is that art is a suspension from the grind of reality and allows not only the creator but also the viewers to be creative in the way they are stimulated or they are reacting to what's going on.

D (22:45)

And

E (22:47)

one of the ways that I can explain the Schopenhauer effect is that, you know, reality is. For Schopenhauer is rather miserable. There's a lot of pain, anxiety, melancholia. But art is a space where there is a suspension for this because individuals don't go fully in the illusion, but also they are slightly suspended from reality.

B (23:14)

The name of the film is Group the Schopenhauer Effect. I've been speaking with its writer and director, Alexey Lloyd, as well as actor Thomas Sadowski and Dr. Elliot Zeisel. Thank you so much for joining us.

E (23:27)

Thank you.

D (23:28)

Thank you for the opportunity.

B (23:30)

I'm Alison Stewart. You've been listening to all of it. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow.

A (23:41)

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