A (2:55)

Yeah, tell what was the audition like when you went up for Obama?

D (2:59)

Oh, well, it's kind of a funny story, so I'll tell the introduce.

A (3:06)

First of all, no cursing.

D (3:07)

Oh, yeah, no cursing. We were on the same.

B (3:09)

We were given clear instructions.

D (3:10)

Oh, yes. But I. One of. So I competed on the voice back in 2014, and one of my fellow cast members on the Voice on my season called me one day, and she says, hey, Teej, there's a guy that I'm working with in this band that I'm working with, and they're doing all these vocal sessions. You know, I think you'd be great for it. And I said, okay. Well, yeah, you know. So she gave Eli my number, and we spoke. And I was already just taken by the man. Cause he was so funny on the phone. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna go down. Go down to the studio and record some of the songs. And after. After what? The first session, we just decided we were fast friends, and we just started recording.

B (3:54)

Well, also, tj, we should. So the first demos were done by me. So at a certain point, you go, okay, we've got to upgrade this. Especially since the title of the song that we were singing was called How Black is Too Black. So you can imagine.

A (4:12)

Sung by a nice Jewish boy.

E (4:14)

Right.

B (4:14)

So you can imagine me singing the demo. The answer to that question was, well, could be blacker than this. So I had TJ come down and do the demo. And again, we fel in love platonically as brothers. And then when it came time to actually cast the part, I was like, I already know my guy. It's the first guy. You know, it's like. It is one of those weird things where it's like, when you know, you know.

A (4:41)

So it's interesting because TJ is a handsome man, but he doesn't necessarily look like Barack Obama.

B (4:47)

No.

A (4:48)

And Shanice, who plays Michelle Obama, doesn't look like Michelle Obama either. Was that a point? Did you do that on purpose?

B (4:55)

Kind of. It was certainly not a priority to find people who looked the same. You know, one thing I said to TJ and Shaunice and to Chad Dorick, who plays Biden, who looks nothing like Joe Biden either. He's about 40 and moonwalks and has a six pack are Joe Biden. But I said, just capture the essence of the person. That's all I care about. I actually think the sooner our audience forgets that it's a real person, the better. I mean, our Mitch McConnell, who's played by Larry Seder, has a legit ponytail and he's Just rocked that ponytail since we first started. And I've not gotten one single person being like, why does Mitch McConnell have a ponytail? I was like, because Larry has a ponytail.

A (5:40)

We are talking about the Off Broadway production of the Obama era musical 44 the musical @ the Daryl Roth Theater. My guests are composer and writer eli Bauman and T.J. wilkins, who plays President Obama. Okay, what characteristics did you take from Obama, TJ and what did you decide? You know, leave that to the impersonators. There's a difference.

D (5:59)

Oh, my goodness. Well, the characteristics that I had to take were obviously the speech pattern. President Obama is so distinct, and to really capture the essence of him, you know, I had to kind of talk like this and, you know, the whole nine, but also have it grounded in, like, realism, you know? Cause again, it's character instead of caricature. Right. So also his walk, his body language, you know, certain mannerisms I just picked up on to really kind of help me with my artistic choices. And, you know, Eli gave us freedom to create our own. And so, yeah.

A (6:38)

What was hard to pick up about Obama?

D (6:41)

Oh, my. The hardest part to pick up about Obama was really the internal stuff. You know, you see a guy like that and he's seems like he's always cool, even under pressure, and I'm like, how do you just remain cool? Like, you know, you catch Bin Laden and you're like, yeah, we got him. It's like, wait, what? So in order to do that, you know, I read some of the books, Dreams from My Father, which was a really, really helpful book, just to understand the man behind the office and inform some of the choices that, you know, we make in the show. And. Yeah, so it was. It was. It was tough. Well, I won't say it was tough. It was just. It was work. It was the work. You know, when you want to do a great job as an actor, you do the work. So it's great.

A (7:30)

Eli, the show is irrelevant. What am I saying? Irreverent. Thank you.

B (7:35)

I hope it's not irrelevant.

A (7:37)

Irreverent, though.

B (7:38)

I'm like, okay, well, tell it how you see it. Yeah. Come on, Alison, what else you got?

A (7:43)

No, it's irreverent, but it does touch on serious subjects. It does as well. How did you figure out the right balance?

B (7:50)

You know, it's a good question. I won't say any names, but I had someone come up fairly early in the process and be like, you know, I was, like, laughing so hysterically, and then I started crying, and I was like, what is that? And I was like, well, I don't know. I mean, that's kind of what life is like, isn't it? I mean, it's not all one thing or the other. You know, I think funnily enough, what I. From minute one, the thing I was trying to avoid in this was kind of middle of the road fluff, like, empty iceberg lettuce, calories. And I was like, I just want people to feel stuff. That's what's important to me. So whether they're laughing or crying or somewhere, you know, in those zones, it's like. It's why I'm always like, well, I don't care if people hate it. I just hope that they're not indifferent. But to me, I like to laugh. And if, you know, there was definitely a moment where I was like, you know, the Sandy Hook mass shooting was such a thing. And I was like, it's dishonest to avoid it. It's convenient to avoid it. And that's what a lot of politicians do. They just avoid stuff that's inconvenient. But artistically, I feel like that's a coward's way out, so I'd rather just own it. Same thing with, like, racial stuff. And look, I'm not the perfect messenger, but I'm also, like, I was more comfortable with taking on criticism from people of being like, well, this white dude doesn't get it, than being like, well, this white dude just avoided it completely. So, you know, you gotta tell it how it is, how you see it, and live with the results.

A (9:33)

Tj, what do you see as Obama's arc in the play?

B (9:37)

Wow.

D (9:38)

I see just the rise of, you know, what it takes to be a black man in this country, you know, or the journey. Excuse me, the journey of what it takes to be a black man in this country, ascending to the highest office in the country. And all of the stuff that you have to deal with, you know, especially race, is a thing that we don't shy away from. We have to confront it head on and acknowledge that it exists because it's real. And so Obama deals with a lot of that, but then also he balances, you know, being a husband and a father while holding the highest office in the nation. You know, being a leader of the free world, and then you still have to have dinner with your wife. You still have to be a husband and date and do all of those things, and at the same time, be. Be a leader that everybody's counting on. And so along the way, I feel that Obama starts to you know, toward the beginning of the show, he's wondering, can I really do this? And we find out, you know, without no pun intended, but yes, he can.

A (10:50)

We're gonna hear TJ singing a song called How Black Is Too Black. Where does this come in the show?

D (10:57)

This Eli?

B (11:00)

It's towards the beginning of the show. But yeah, this is the first demo. This is the one I was talking about earlier that. So just imagine that at one point a 40 year old Jewish man was singing this front part and then be thankful that it's not that anymore.

A (11:16)

This is from 44, the Musical.

C (11:19)

How black is Too Black how black is too black how black is too black how black can I be? How baroque can I be? The real world isn't black and white the shades of gray Between Vanna white and brown I can't be all things to all people in the land of slavery Jim Crow separating equal Will they ever accept me for who I am? A mixed race Hawaiian pants and Indonesian how much blackness can they really stay? Do they even know I'm black Or do they think I'm just tan? How black is too black? How black is too black? How black is too black?

A (12:49)

Hold on.

C (12:50)

How black can I be? How Barack can I be? When some white women.

A (12:57)

So there's some dancing going on, which is what you hear in the audience reacting to who's the choreographer? What kind of rehearsals do you do? What does the dance tell us?

D (13:08)

Oh, my goodness. Well, I have to give a shout out to our choreographer, Ms. James Alsop, who's incredible and who, in this rehearsal process was very collaborative, you know, saw what I could do and said, okay, do that and I'm gonna give you some stuff and let's tell a story through the dance. So in this particular number, I literally go on almost like a chronological sort of journey of like black dance moves. Right?

B (13:37)

Yeah.

D (13:37)

You know, and you know, which is so. Which is so, so fun because again, it's all storytelling and, you know, hearing people react to like, dances that they used to do, like at parties and, you know, and I mean, I go. We go pretty deep from like dances in like the 50s, 60s, all the way up to now. And so in that, in that, in that, in that song in particular, it's really kind of giving as much blackness as we can.

B (14:07)

Also, I just want to shout out our music director, who is also my creative partner very early in this process, which is Anthony Brewster. Yeah. And the band, which is called House of Vibe. And that band has played together for like 15, 20 years. So when you hear all of that. There is so much nuance and tightness and feel that goes on with our band. Yeah. And they are so much like the heartbeat of the show, because you can't dance to anything if you can't feel it in your foot.

D (14:36)

Yes, sir.

B (14:37)

And those guys can put it in your foot, so.

D (14:38)

Oh, yeah.

A (14:39)

How much you've had to change this production since it started from a creative.

B (14:45)

Standpoint or from a new cycle?

A (14:47)

Because I saw it a long time ago. And you, like, said you have to come back.

B (14:50)

Oh, yeah, we. Oh, yes. You will see an entirely different show. You will see an entirely different show, like, month to month.

A (14:58)

Do you make those shifts?

B (15:00)

Oh, yeah, I do, and it keeps me creatively engaged. It keeps our cast again. We've had a remarkable amount of continuity, so I like to torture people by changing stuff just to keep it interesting. But I would say we've been actually remarkably Teflon to the news cycle. There's no trump in this musical, which has helped. That was a good bet early on. And so I've tried not to alter too much based on, like, what's going on in the news, because that's a losing battle. But I change stuff all the time. I get passionate about some stuff. Stuff comes in and out. I mean, we always joke about it. There's probably, like, three different musicals just of stuff that's been cut.

D (15:40)

Yes, yes.

B (15:43)

Some of it is for the best that you'll never hear it, but some of them are good.

A (15:48)

Was it hard to get people to sign on initially to support this?

B (15:55)

Yes and no. I feel like on the creative end, no. I think there's obviously some people who are nervous. I would say now I am a fighter by nature, so I'm like, let's go. Let's get in the trenches and see what's up. But I think there's reticence among some people, interestingly enough. Like, we've actually had a lot of Republicans see the show. One's in my family and one's not in my family and have loved the show. So I think people are kind of scared for the wrong reasons, I suppose. But all I know is once anyone has signed on, they've been converts. Like, we've left every place. We've been on a high with people wanting for us to come back. So that's all I take with me is, like, the proof's in the pudding.

A (16:50)

The show is called 44 the Musical. It opened at the Daryl roth Theater at 101 East 15th street, thanks to Eli Bauman. And TJ Wilkins, who plays Obama. Thanks for coming in.

B (17:01)

Thank you, Alison. Appreciate you.

D (17:03)

Thank you so much.

B (17:04)

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