Podcast Summary: "A New Podcast Reports on Extremism in Upstate New York"
Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch (Reporters and Co-hosts, North Country Public Radio's "If All Else Fails")
Air Date: January 16, 2024
Episode Overview
This episode centers on the rise of far-right extremism in rural upstate New York, as reported in the new North Country Public Radio podcast, If All Else Fails. Alison Stewart interviews reporters Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch, discussing how extremism has rooted itself in the North Country—an area that has become increasingly conservative, drawing the attention of both national extremist groups and concerned government agencies. The conversation explores the types of groups active in the region, factors driving recruitment, law enforcement’s contested role, the influence of prominent politicians, and the challenges of monitoring extremism today.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Defining the North Country and Its Political Landscape
- Geographic scope: The North Country spans from Vermont to Lake Ontario and up to the Canadian border, making it "the most rural part of New York State" with about 600,000 residents.
- Emily Russell: “It's the most rural part of New York State. There's only about 600,000 people that live here … and it's been shrinking in the last decade.” [02:45]
- Shifting politics: Once purple, the region is now solidly conservative, contributing to increased activity by far-right groups.
2. Emergence and Appeal of Extremist Groups
- Groups named: Patriot Front, KKK, Proud Boys, NY Watchmen, Oath Keepers, and the 3 Percenters are all active or have tried to recruit in the area.
- Fringe attracting local attention:
- James Bonet, sentenced for Jan 6th, in podcast clip: “There’s a lot of people like me that we know the election was stolen ... there's a lot of Americans there that were like, we want answers on this.” [02:00]
- Recruitment methods:
- Exploiting Second Amendment fears, particularly after state-level gun control like the SAFE Act (2013), using slogans like “the government is coming to take away your guns.”
- Zach Hirsch: “The SAFE Act … continued to just be this … central motivating factor in recruiting and saying, look, this is evidence that the government is tyrannical.” [05:36]
- Exploiting Second Amendment fears, particularly after state-level gun control like the SAFE Act (2013), using slogans like “the government is coming to take away your guns.”
3. Understanding the Organizations
- Spectrum of extremism:
- No “hard and fast” definition—groups and beliefs exist on a wide spectrum, from flag-flying and bumper stickers to more underground recruitment.
- Emily Russell: “Far right ideas and groups, they exist on a spectrum … far right violent extremism is pretty rare here. We want to be very clear about that.” [04:26]
- No “hard and fast” definition—groups and beliefs exist on a wide spectrum, from flag-flying and bumper stickers to more underground recruitment.
- Specific group ‘vibes’:
- NY Watchmen: Deny militia status, language still “relates to a militia mentality.”
- Oath Keepers: “Widely considered a … national militia.”
- 3 Percenters: More ideology than group; based on the myth that only 3% of colonists fought the British. Parallels drawn between British rule and contemporary US government.
- Zach Hirsch: “It’s sort of an ideology … part of the broader anti-government militia movement.” [07:22]
4. Central Narratives & Recruiting Tools
- Core message: Gun control is framed as evidence of government tyranny; narratives of ‘deep state’, liberal overreach, erosion of freedoms.
- Zach Hirsch quoting a sheriff: “Our borders are overrun, crime is taking over our cities, and progressives want to take our guns ... This narrative of a liberal takeover and an overreaching government.” [09:08]
5. Law Enforcement’s Role and the ‘Constitutional Sheriff’ Movement
- Unique power structure: Sheriffs are the only elected law enforcement officials, giving them broad discretionary power with little oversight between elections.
- Zach Hirsch: “There just isn’t anyone to hold sheriffs accountable during the times that they ... choose not to enforce a particular law.” [10:46]
- Constitutional sheriffs: Some claim the authority to decide what laws are or aren’t constitutional, positioning themselves above state and federal officials in their own counties.
- “Basically they think ... the sheriff on the local level has the most power in the country ... even the President of the United States.” [12:12]
- Case studies:
- Lewis County Sheriff, Mike Carpinelli: Publicly received Oath Keepers award; positive local reaction; refused to comment for the podcast, instead labeled journalists as “leftist leaning.”
- Emily Russell: “He posted about us on his professional Facebook page, calling us the leftist leaning press and said he wouldn't talk to reporters …” [13:39]
- Fulton County Sheriff, Richard Giardino: Sat for interviews, shared rationale for not enforcing new gun laws, exercising broad discretion.
- Zach Hirsch: “He says ... if we stopped you and you're at the supermarket ... and the new rule is the supermarket doesn't allow guns, we're not going to arrest you. We're going to say, look, the law changed ...” [15:49]
- Lewis County Sheriff, Mike Carpinelli: Publicly received Oath Keepers award; positive local reaction; refused to comment for the podcast, instead labeled journalists as “leftist leaning.”
6. Race and Extremism
- Race as a background element: Gun rights and anti-government activism are publicly at the forefront, but Confederate flags and coded racist messages are present; overt racism less common but historically interwoven.
- Emily Russell: “We see ... far right stickers that are also connected to racist ideologies ... But ... it's just maybe not as overt as it is in other parts of the U.S.” [17:51]
- Zach Hirsch: “For example, talking again about the constitutional sheriffs ... really kicked off with a white supremacist in the 70s ... Now ... the main group ... is a talk show host who ... guests ... are white nationalists and neo-confederates.” [18:53]
7. Monitoring Extremism
- Who’s watching: FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force, NY Department of Homeland Security and Emergency Services.
- Emily Russell: “The FBI is tracking online extremism, in person extremism … but … a lot of extremism and the spread of these ideas is happening more online now… the Internet is a massive space. It's impossible to track all of that chatter …” [20:06]
8. Political Leaders’ Influence
- Rep. Elise Stefanik: While not openly allied with extremist groups, her rhetoric has echoed or validated fringe conspiracies, giving legitimacy to extremist narratives.
- Zach Hirsch: “She ... indicated sympathy or ... given legitimacy to ... some of this stuff.” [21:17]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “There's a lot of people like me that we know the election was stolen ... there's a lot of Americans there that were like, we want answers on this.”
— James Bonet, Jan 6 participant (Podcast clip) [02:00] - “It’s the most rural part of New York State. There’s only about 600,000 people that live here … and it’s been shrinking in the last decade.”
— Emily Russell [02:45] - “The SAFE Act ... continued to just be this ... central motivating factor in recruiting and saying, look, this is evidence that the government is tyrannical.”
— Zach Hirsch [05:36] - “Constitutional sheriffs claim they can kind of decide what is and isn’t constitutional … they think … on their home turf, they're even more powerful than a federal official. Even the President of the United States.”
— Zach Hirsch [12:12] - “We see ... far right stickers that are also connected to racist ideologies ... it's just maybe not as overt as it is in other parts of the U.S.”
— Emily Russell [17:51] - “She [Elise Stefanik] ... given legitimacy to ... some of this stuff.”
— Zach Hirsch [21:17]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Intro and context setting: [01:00]
- Defining the North Country: [02:41]
- Why cover extremism, incident with sheriff: [03:27]
- Spectrum and visibility of extremism: [04:26]
- Recruitment narratives: [05:36]
- Explanation of groups & ideologies: [06:42]
- Deep state narrative: [08:12]
- Role and lack of sheriff oversight: [10:46]
- ‘Constitutional sheriff’ movement explained: [12:12]
- Sheriff Carpinelli’s media approach: [13:39]
- Sheriff Giardino's interpretation of gun laws: [15:49]
- Race and coded messages: [17:51]
- Monitoring extremism and online shift: [20:06]
- Elise Stefanik’s influence: [21:17]
Tone and Language
Throughout, the hosts and guests use clear, accessible language, maintaining a balance of journalistic rigor and conversational tone. They are careful to avoid sensationalism, emphasizing nuance and the spectrum of beliefs and behaviors present in the region.
Conclusion
All Of It’s episode with Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch provides an insightful, on-the-ground look at extremism in upstate New York—unpacking how local history, law enforcement culture, and national politics intersect in unique and sometimes troubling ways. The podcast, If All Else Fails, aims to foster critical awareness of these dynamics, emphasizing the real-world stakes for democracy and public safety in even the most rural communities.