← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
A Retired Serial Killer Covers Her Tracks in A New Novel
00:21:46
A new thriller follows Lottie Jones, a retired serial killer, thought she left her life of crime behind but is forced to revisit her old actions.
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- [00:09]
A
You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In a new thriller, the main character isn't a young femme fatale or a detective on the hunt. She's Lottie Jones, a 75 year old grandmother who spends her days playing bingo with her church friends. But Lottie has a past. Before her retirement, she worked at a bank and she was a serial killer. The book is called Too Old for this. Lottie thought she left that life behind until a producer named Plum Dixon shows up at her door and wants to make a true crime docu series. Lottie realizes that to keep her secret, she might just have to kill again. The book is written by Samantha Downing, the author of My Lovely Wife for your Own Good and A Twisted Love Story. She's been praised for her delightfully macabre storytelling and she has a knack for making us root for the most unlikely antiheroes. Samantha joining, joins me now. Hi, Samantha.
- [01:08]
B
Hi. Thank you for that introduction. It's nice to be here.
- [01:11]
A
It's nice to have you here. And this book, it was great. It made me laugh. It was twisted, it was turny. It was a great book by the way.
- [01:19]
B
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
- [01:22]
A
So why is a 75 year old grandmother the perfect serial killer?
- [01:27]
B
Well, I think she has a lot of things going for her. The first is experience. She's done this before. She knows how to do it. And she, more importantly, more importantly than the killing is the getting away with it. So she has her own methods of doing that and sort of just goes straight into gear when it, when it happens and she is yanked out of retirement, which is completely not her fault, by the way. Not her fault. Somebody else who of course, no. She is now, of course, dealing with a new world of technology and science. So she has some challenges.
- [02:05]
A
Did you come across any true life grandmother serial killers in doing research for the book?
- [02:12]
B
Not serial killers, no. There have definitely been a few female serial killers and men and women who kill together as a couple or a pair. I did not come across any specifically female serial killers who had aged into being a grandmother and survived that long. No.
- [02:33]
A
When you're starting a new book, what usually comes first for you? The character, the situation, an image, A voice?
- [02:42]
B
Typically it is the character. I usually start with the idea of a character. What if this person was in this situation kind of a thing? And I try writing it out and see if it works. I don't really plot my books. I sort of wing it basically. So I have to write it to see if it. It will work and if the character has. If there's a story there. Because a character is not a book. There has to be a story there. And sometimes there are, sometimes there aren't. And for this one, it. This idea of this retired serial killer who gets a knock at the door that changes everything was an idea that I. I just loved it from the beginning and just wanted to write about her. I thought she was such a fascinating person, and it really just took hold of me until I. Until the book was done.
- [03:36]
A
Did you see a woman sitting on a bench? Did you see someone, you thought, what if she were a serial killer? Or did she just come out of your imagination?
- [03:45]
B
No. At the time, I actually was writing a different book about a younger female serial killer. And I wasn't really excited about it. It wasn't speaking to me, but I was writing it. And at the time, I had some health problems and they affected my mobility and I couldn't live the life that I wanted anymore. I couldn't work out. I couldn't be as active. And I was really angry about it. I was really angry at my body. And I created this older woman who is also going through some both physical and mental changes as she ages. And I just thought, you know, I'm going to give her all my frustration. I'm going to let her deal with everything I feel frustrated about. I'm going to give it to her.
- [04:29]
A
That's interesting, because in the book, you know, she is not used to performing the way she used to. Like, she's got to lift the people and they're heavier now. Or she's got to deal with this one situation that makes her ankles hurt. It's kind of interesting.
- [04:46]
B
Yeah. And she does. She doesn't have the strength that she had when she was younger, and she has to adapt to that and figure out, well, let me go get something to roll them on. Let me go get a wheelbarrow. Let me figure out how I can do this. So she's constantly adapting and adjusting to her new situation, which was kind of what I was doing was trying. Trying not very well, to adapt to my lack of physical mobility. So it. So it worked out for me to sort of. It was a cathartic for me to put it all on her.
- [05:22]
A
I was gonna say, I bet that really helped you through those times.
- [05:26]
B
Yeah. And I was waiting around on surgery and just like laid up basically until I could get my. My life, my physical part of my life back. So it turned out to be the perfect book at the perfect Time.
- [05:38]
A
My guest is writer Samantha Downing. Her new novel, too Old for this, centers on a retired churchgoing serial killer who comes out of retirement to keep her past a secret. Now, you write in Lottie's voice. How did you decide what Lottie would sound like?
- [05:58]
B
I knew Lottie would have a very sort of been there, done that kind of attitude. Because she has been through this so many times before. She's also frustrated by a lot of things in the world today. In terms of technology and tracking devices and cameras and all of that. So I liked her. Her inner monologue is very snarky, though that's not necessarily what she's projecting to other people. And I liked the idea of keeping the reader in her head and they hold so that you see things only through her eyes. And hopefully, if I did my job, you start to sort of nod along with her and be like, she's right about this. And if you. And you sort of are like, she's she. There has to be. If you're writing from a serial killer's point of view, there has to be something that readers can relate to. And so I think a lot of her frustrations about aging and about the world, people can relate to that. Even if they, you know, hate the idea of a serial killer in general, which we all should. You may not be rooting for her to kill, but you may relate to her in other ways. Otherwise, if you don't get that, you're just writing about a monster and nobody can relate to that. So that's the way I've found. They have to have a belief system that other people can buy into.
- [07:28]
A
I'm going to ask you to read from your book a bit. This is when we first meet Lottie Jones at home. And a stranger knocks on her door. Take it away, Samantha.
- [07:39]
B
Okay. Chapter one. The remains of my dinner start to congeal. I bring the plate into the kitchen, rinse it off and return to my recliner. Pull up my compression socks. Unpause the tv. The knock at the door is a surprise. It's too late for salespeople or pollsters or children raising money for soccer uniforms. Too late for anything good. I mute the TV and wait for them to go away. Another knock. Sit still, I tell myself. God knows it took me long enough to learn that sometimes the best thing you can do is sit still. Mrs. Jones? A female voice, one I don't recognize. It's young and a bit whiny, and I wonder if she is selling Girl Scout cookies. I heave myself up and out of the recliner. My joints do not appreciate this and show their displeasure with creaks and pops. Who's there? I yell. Mrs. Jones. My name is Plum Dixon. Hard to forget a name like that, even for me. You're the one who left a message earlier. Yes, I'm from. I have nothing to say. Plum Dixon called twice today. I did not answer either call and now she is at my front door. I see her for the first time through the peephole. Mid 20s, tan skin, blonde hair, perky ponytail, a big annoying Smile. Please, Mrs. Jones, I just want to talk to you. She's got the persistence. Too much of that and it becomes a disease. I am hardly ready for company. My loungewear is faded and old, fraying at the cuffs, and my house shoes are shabby and worn. As for my hair and face, there's not much room for improvement at this point. I unhook the chain, twist the deadbolt, and open the door. Plum's eyes light up. I'm sorry for show up, showing up unannounced like this, she says. I wasn't sure what else to do. You could have left me alone. I'm sorry. Please let me explain to you so you understand what I'm trying to do. Come inside. Already the cold air is getting in. She hops in like a little bunny and looks around. Formal sitting room on the left, living room on the right, grand staircase in the middle. The floor has seen better days. So has the paint on the walls, but the bones are good. That's what people always say. The house is much bigger than I need and requires too much maintenance. It's old and more than I can handle, which is why it looks the way it does. We match me and this house, though it's important to note that I'm the younger one and I'll stop there.
- [10:18]
A
That was Samantha Downing reading Too old for this Plum comes to the door. Who is the inspiration for Plum?
- [10:28]
B
I was thinking of. I was originally thinking of podcasters, but sort of a true crime podcaster type situation. But the docu series on streaming networks has become so popular I thought it would be more interesting to try something different and someone that actually wanted to put her on camera in across the World and would be more frightening for Lottie to experience if people saw the visuals the way they would on a streaming show. But there wasn't any one particular person that inspired her.
- [11:01]
A
It's interesting because Plum comes into Lottie's world and she's really sort of an intruder in many ways. How does her intruding on Lottie's very controlled world set her off.
- [11:15]
B
Well, Lottie is. And this you learn within the first chapters because I don't want to spoil anything. She is living under an assumed name and this Plum Dixon has tracked her down. Her friends don't know who she is. Her friends don't know her past or that she has been accused of murder in the past and exonerated. And she doesn't want any of that blowing up her quiet little life. She likes her life. She likes her friends. She has a family. She's a grandmother, she has a son. None of these people know any of that. Or that she's living under an assumed name, so. Or she changed her name and so that her whole life would just explode. And the idea of that is not okay with Lottie. And Plumb goes on to say that no matter what Lottie says, she's going to make this docuseries, it's going to happen. And, well, what are you going to do?
- [12:19]
A
It's sort of interesting in the book because judgment is a continuous theme that. That reoccurs in the book. And Lottie being judged and not liking being judged, when you think about it, what is it about judgment? We don't wanna give too much away that causes her to kind of go around the bend.
- [12:41]
B
Well, women are judged all the time, all day, every day, for what we wear, how we act, what we say, for our whole lives. We're judged when we're young, when we're old, when we're. When we're good looking, when we're not good looking, when we gain weight, when we lose weight. There is judgment all the time. Whether we're likable, especially. And Lottie feels that at 75, she has been through all the judgments and now she's being judged as an older woman. And people judge her differently because of that. And at some point it just gets to her. It's just too much. And again, I don't want to put any spoilers out there, but, you know, being. It's tough being judged. That's a lot to carry on your shoulders all the time and just have to think about it all day, every day.
- [13:29]
A
Another point in the book which is kind of interesting is that Lottie is pricing out senior living homes, places where she can get assistance. Why?
- [13:40]
B
Well, she starts to think about possibly dying alone in her house and how long it would take to be found or what happens when she can't go up and down that big street staircase anymore. And would it be she knows she can't manage the house, and she can't take care of it the way it should be taken care of. And she starts thinking, how many years do I really have left? Because she's getting to that age where she's right around the average lifespan of a female in the United States. And how many more years do I have? How much can I afford to pay for? Will I need more extensive medical care? All of these questions are on her mind, and she starts think about getting rid of the big house and moving somewhere smaller into a retirement type of community.
- [14:34]
A
I'm talking to Samantha Downing. Her new novel is too old for this. It centers on a retired, churchgoing serial killer who comes out of retirement to keep her past secret. I'm not giving too much away. Plum goes away. We'll just say she goes away and it sets off a series of killings. But one thing, and you mentioned this earlier, is that Lottie is not as up to date on certain things. And she goes to. She takes a class at the library, and she learns that every device is being tracked.
- [15:06]
B
Those are her words.
- [15:08]
A
And she decides, well, I'm not taking my phone with me. But she slips up. It makes her a little bit paranoid. In what way is technology a character here?
- [15:20]
B
I think it's impossible, in my opinion. If you're writing a thriller set in the modern world, you have to include technology at some level, or you have to set it in some sort of a locked room scenario where all the technology has been knocked out and nobody can call 91 1. So in this case, it's very important. In fact, I went to a writer's conference that I go to every year. And when I was in edits for this book, I went to a conference that had experts that there, including a cyber expert and a forensic pathologist and lawyers and judges. And I went with a list of questions, and I went right to the cyber expert and said, explain this. How would this work? What if I just turn off the location on my phone? Is that fine? And the answer always came back, if you're carrying a device with you, somebody can find you. It just depends on how hard they're looking and who exactly is looking for you. Is it local? Is it federal? Is it. How serious is it? So I thought, okay, so the only way around this really, is to leave your phone at home to have no devices with you. So it was really interesting to hear that and to hear. To talk to the experts in this field and then to have to put it into a book. And that's really the difficult part because you don't want to bog people down with a lot of tech talk. It's not a technical book and it's not a technology thriller. So it sort of had to be woven in from Lottie's point of view. How does she see technology and how is she going to try to literally get away with murder?
- [16:51]
A
Yeah, she says everyone is carrying cameras these days, but she says anyone can become the villain with the right angle.
- [17:01]
B
Yeah, we've seen that a few times recently. Yeah.
- [17:03]
A
What interested you about that gap between how we see things?
- [17:10]
B
I think that it's an interesting place we find ourselves in and Lottie finds herself in that she could be caught on camera at any time. There are. When she's driving on a traffic camera or in a store or just anywhere really, there could be a camera. And that can be a problem for a thriller writer. It can also be a help for a thriller writer. It depends on which angle you're coming at it from. So for Lottie, it was important to try to avoid the cameras or avoid having her face. Face on camera to try to look like somebody else and pulling a hat down. And because there's only so much you can do without standing at. You can't walk around with a big mask on your face. I mean, short of a Covid mask, that's about. Is all you can get away with. And even that people can. You can be identified on camera. So it was a. It was a challenge to try to. It's. I think it's a real challenge. And it's why we don't see the serial killers that used to exist before we had all this technology. It's very, very difficult to be a serial killer these days with the science that we have now.
- [18:19]
A
It's interesting because she's got a whole community at the church and they have their own rules and their own ways of casting judgments. How would you describe her community at the church?
- [18:35]
B
Yeah, I wanted to make this as. I wanted to make Lottie and her friends as realistic as possible and not make them cutesy older people that knit and do that. So they go to church, her and her friends go to bingo night and are upset they're not allowed to have alcohol at the bingo because they're 75 years old. Why can't they have alcohol? But it's not permitted. And they talk about their children, their wayward children and things that they've done wrong and tease each other about being horrible mothers. So I wanted them to be a little slightly more real sounding and edgy sounding rather than A group of older people that are always very nice and very pleasant and very sweet to each other. And my grandmother played bingo a lot and would travel to bingo games. She had a whole bingo schedule going on and would see the same people and going to the same. They would go in groups and what have you. So for Lottie, it's a real social circle for her and one that she values.
- [19:40]
A
There are a lot of characters in this book. How do you keep track of them when you're writing? Do you keep cards on the wall? Do you keep a file on each one? How do you keep track of the characters and how they're going to intersect?
- [19:55]
B
I keep a list of the characters on just a document file. And I don't really. I don't plot and I don't outline, so I don't start tracking how they intersect or anything more complicated than I really do. Wing it. When I write a book, I hate to say that, but the real work after that becomes in the revision and the editing. And I go through it. My editor goes through it. She tells me where I've messed up or something like that. So to clean it up and to clean up any plot holes. And I try to make it as good and as clean as I can before I hand it in to my editor. But sure, there's always more work to be done.
- [20:45]
A
Do you think people should root for Lottie even though she's a killer?
- [20:50]
B
No. But if they want to, that's fuck great. I mean, I think people root for her to succeed. They just aren't necessarily rooting for her to kill. So I think those are two very different things. They want her to go back to living her quiet life where she wasn't hurting anybody. But maybe some people want justice to catch up with her. And I don't know. To me, I don't think about whether a character is likable or not. It's completely irrelevant to me when I'm writing. And I don't even care if you root for them or if you root against them. What I care about is if I'm writing a compelling character.
- [21:34]
A
I just want to get this in. Too old for. This is the name of the book. It is by Samantha Downing. Samantha, we're going to have to leave it right there. Thank you for being with us.
- [21:44]
B
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