George Moats (2:59)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (2:59)

Why was this a right time for an update?

George Moats (3:02)

Because it had been a very, very long time since the last update. Solid eight years.

Alison Stewart (3:07)

So where did you go to find the new restaurants? There are 38.

George Moats (3:10)

That's what you call them. New. They're actually old.

Alison Stewart (3:11)

They're old.

George Moats (3:12)

Old, but new to me. New entries. New entries. Right. I have a legion of fans out there called. I call them EBTs, Expert Burger Tasters. And they're the ones I refer to as my first responders to great hamburger discoveries. And I go on the road and I do tons of research myself, but it's really my EB ebts that find the best spot. So, you know, I tell people all the time, if you want to be an ebt, just reach out.

Alison Stewart (3:35)

What distinguishes an okay burger from a great burger?

George Moats (3:39)

I think honestly, it's simplicity. It's simplicity. And usually the ones, if you look at the burgers in history that have been around for a very long time, the simpler burgers, are the ones that have stood the test of time. They're the ones that make it 100 years. They only have two or three ingredients on them. Some of these sort of stunt burgers that have way too much stuff on them, they don't end up your mouth very often because they're just too much to eat. It's the ones with the very, very simple ingredients, the ones that survive.

Alison Stewart (4:07)

The stunt burgers.

George Moats (4:09)

Yeah. Stunt burgers.

Callers (4:09)

Yeah.

George Moats (4:10)

There is actually. There's one stunt burger I think if you were just talking about in the intro, which is the Bernese special, which has those four slices of cheese and it is definitely a stunt burger, but it's a real thing. It's been around for almost 100 years now.

Alison Stewart (4:21)

That's amazing. So your restaurant, Hamburger America, it's in soho. There are lines around the corner. Why did you.

George Moats (4:28)

Not every day, a lot of times,

Alison Stewart (4:30)

but you get through. What made you decide to go into this line of work?

George Moats (4:35)

You know, it was actually a mistake. Complete fluke. I was a Filmmaker for many, many years. I was actually a Union filmmaker for 28 years, in the business for over 35 years. And I made a film about hamburgers almost. Actually, at this point, over 20 years ago, I made a film about hamburgers called Hamburger America. And Hamburger America was a story of hamburgers and people who make hamburgers, equally about, you know, Americans making hamburgers in America.

Callers (4:58)

And.

George Moats (4:58)

And I decided that I was just not going to make a big deal out of it. But then when I put the film out, people got very excited about it. They started to say, oh, you're a burger person. You're a burger expert. I said, no, I'm not an expert. I'm a filmmaker. And eventually somebody asked me to make a book about hamburgers. And that book was Hamburger America, the first edition, which was 18 years ago, and it was. Had only 100 entries in it. And at that point, I started to really know a lot about hamburgers. People started. They would seek me out for hamburger information intel. All the time.

Alison Stewart (5:27)

We're talking about what makes a good burger and some of the greatest burger joints across the country with author, chef, and owner of the restaurant Hamburger America. Say your name.

George Moats (5:36)

George Moats.

Alison Stewart (5:36)

George Moats. His new book is out tomorrow. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Do you enjoy a good quality burger? Where do you go to get one? Shout out your favorite burger joints that you've ever been to in your neighborhood, in your borough across the country. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can call in, join us on the air, or you can text us at that number as well. You talk about burgers in Arkansas, Indiana, even Puerto Rico. How much of a difference did you notice in the styles of cooking across the country?

George Moats (6:09)

There's very different styles. I mean, there's a. There's a. There's a burger's. A burger has to be cooked a certain way to be defined as a hamburger. It has to be ground beef that is cooked somehow and served on bread, period, full spell, period.

Alison Stewart (6:20)

Okay?

George Moats (6:20)

That is. That is it. That is the definition of a hamburger. You put cheese on it, becomes a cheeseburger, right? So if you put anything else on it, it becomes your burger, it becomes your style. But outside of that definition, all over the country, regional uniqueness abounds and usually depends on where you are. I mean, if you're in Wisconsin, there's a lot of butter. Burgers in Wisconsin, there's a lot of great butter in Wisconsin. Obviously, if you're In New Mexico, there's the green chili cheeseburger is very special to the state of New Mexico. But outside of that, I mean, if you're in southern Colorado or if you're in western Texas, you can find a green chili cheeseburger. But outside of that, you're not going to really find anywhere else in the country at all. It's amazing. So that is a very regional specialty. And there are so many different regional burgers out there that not just based on toppings, but also based on method and how they're made. Like, for example, for example, you have deep fried burgers in parts of the Midwest, upper Midwest, you have steamed burgers in Connecticut, you have poached burgers. I know I've seen before in Wisconsin. You also have another. You have a indoor charcoal burger in Wisconsin as well. So each one of those methods imparts a different flavor, obviously. And they. There's so many different ways to make a burger.

Alison Stewart (7:27)

Here's a question for you. It says, what about Connecticut? I know New Haven has a burger joint that claims to be the original burger. Thoughts? That's a text we got.

George Moats (7:37)

I love this question. You know, here's the thing. The name of the place is Louie's Lunch in New Haven. And it is a great place. It is. That has the claim of being the inventor of the hamburger. Unfortunately, it's not. That's. I have to spell. We've all just. Unfortunately, they hate me for it. But I've. I've dispelled the myth. We have in print newspaper articles that go back to 1893 at this point, and their claim is 1900. They do, however, have the claim, and it's true that they are the oldest continually operating hamburger restaurant in America at 126 years.

Alison Stewart (8:07)

Now, this says after a movie at the Angelica Cinema, hunting for a restaurant, we came across Hamburger America. Well, the reasonable price, it made us suspicious until we tasted it. It was perfect. We've been going there ever since. Great pies too.

George Moats (8:19)

Thank. Yes, there are great. They say great pies. Oh, good. I'm pies. We have a great baker who's a baker in New Jersey who makes great pies for us. And all of our desserts are made by the same bake. You know, the price point is important, especially in SoHo, because in SoHo, I think a lot of the burgers, because they have to be. And they can be, they usually go north of $20. Ours is not. And we can do that because we're strictly a volume based business and we have a lot of capacity to make a lot of burgers in the restaurant. And we can, we can, we can crank out a lot of burgers as well. We're also trying to get the line down. That's the.

Alison Stewart (8:50)

Let's talk to Martin who's calling in from Hoboken. Hey, Martin, thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

Callers (8:58)

Yes, thanks for taking my call. Tell you what, the best place, my favorite burger place in Hoboken where I've lived for more than 40 years is court Street Restaurant. They are. I don't know, I've had burgers all over the country, all over the world, and this has got to be one of my favorites. Anyway,

George Moats (9:24)

that's a great one. Have you been to Krugs before?

Callers (9:28)

To where?

George Moats (9:28)

Krugs, also in Hoboken.

Callers (9:31)

No, no, I have not. Oh, good, good. I've also been to Bear Burger in Hoboken.

George Moats (9:39)

Sorry, Cruise is actually in Newark. I'm sorry, my mistake. Cruises in Newark. So not, not quite Hoboken.

Alison Stewart (9:44)

Well, you can make a little trip. Thanks for calling. Let's talk to Aaron in Stamford, Connecticut. Hey. Hey, Aaron, thanks for calling, all of it.

Callers (9:51)

Hey, good morning. I've got a great place called Milestone and they won the best burger in Fairfield county when they opened in Georgetown, Connecticut. So they went up to mystic and opened a very popular Milestone up there. And they're about to open in Glastonbury. And their unique concept is they're originally a pizza place. They brought this custom made oven in from Italy that fires everything at 750 degrees. So they started throwing their hamburgers through the pizza place pizza oven as well as the creme brulee. And I'm telling you, it is so crispy and so good. Couple patties, a secret sauce. It's the best in Connecticut. Louie's lunch is not the best. It's Milestone, Connecticut.

Alison Stewart (10:29)

Thanks for calling, Aaron.

George Moats (10:30)

Letting some opinions fly. I like it. But you know, I, we have, I'm sure I don't know how long Milestone's been around, but I'd have a rule to be in the book. You have to have a burger on the menu for over 20 years to be even considered for the book and have a great story and have great history and obviously have a great burger.

Alison Stewart (10:45)

Let's talk about New York City Burger's Corner Bistro Classic. It's your hometown burger. Let's talk about it.

George Moats (10:50)

That's right.

Alison Stewart (10:51)

First of all, what's interesting about the building that it's in? Let's talk about the atmosphere a little bit.

George Moats (10:57)

Right It's. I mean, it's been sort of the same sort of cafe bistro its entire life. I think it's been around for a long time, obviously, but it's a classic joint. It really feels like a joint. I mean, that's the whole point. Usually burgers that come from a place like Corner Bistro tend to taste better just because of the place you're eating it in.

Alison Stewart (11:16)

How has it changed over time?

George Moats (11:17)

Not a whole lot, unfortunately. The owner did pass away the guy who originally put the burger on the menu back in the 1970s, but his daughter runs the place now, which is great. So it's in great hands. And when she took over the restaurant, she did some renovations, and I say renovations. She had to shore up the floor. The floor was about to go into the basement, and so she had to actually fix. That was a big deal. But I think the slope is still in the bar. It's still there. And the burgers are still made the exact same way. It still is a great, great place to get a burger.

Alison Stewart (11:46)

It's interest. I went there New Year's Day. I went there by myself, but. And I looked up, and you can get, like, a smaller burger than just the big burger. How do you feel about that? Because I didn't want the whole burger. And then I was like, oh, wait, I can get a mini burger. How do you feel about it?

George Moats (12:00)

Because, well, first of all, hang on. The burger is not that big.

Alison Stewart (12:03)

It's big to me.

George Moats (12:06)

It's big. If you. If you get the bistro burger itself, it does come with cheese and an onion, and. And they actually take their bacon, they throw it in the deep fryer. That's why it's so good and crispy. And so it does make it make for a very tall burger. But I can say, I mean, I'm very reluctant to appreciate any kind of change in a classic burger joint. You have to really sell it to me.

Alison Stewart (12:24)

Well, that's hard. That brings me up to the question of, you know, this is a city that's constantly changing. How does the burger continue to survive?

George Moats (12:33)

Again, it's just based on simplicity. It's based on. It's trying to not be everything to everyone. You know, we don't have a veggie burger on our menu because there are plenty of places that make great veggie burgers in the neighborhood. I also, I wouldn't go to a vegetarian restaurant and ask for a piece of steak. You know, why would you come to a hamburger joint and ask for a veggie burger? So you can't be everything to everybody. And the ones that survive are the ones that really do focus, and they focus on making great food.

Alison Stewart (12:59)

Let's talk to Diego. Calling in from bed Stuy. Hey, Diego, thanks for calling, all of it.

Callers (13:04)

Hey, thanks for having me. I actually have a tie for first place. I'm from Los Angeles, and I think Bill's Burgers and Sherman Oaks. Bill passed away recently. Rest in peace. But he made a really good burger. Up into his 90s, he was back there flipping patties. And then Yucca's on Hill hurt.

George Moats (13:23)

Oh, Yucca's is great. Yucca's actually is the funniest. Yucca's not a hamburger spot.

Callers (13:27)

Yeah, Yucca's is a taco spot.

George Moats (13:28)

It's a taco stand.

Callers (13:29)

They make a great burger.

George Moats (13:30)

They actually make. They really do make a great burger. It's true.

Alison Stewart (13:34)

We're talking about Hamburger America. It's the fourth edition of the book with a whole lot of new restaurants in it. Well, new, old restaurants in it. And it's revised. I'm talking to Jo Motz. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I am talking to chef, author, and owner of Hamburger America, George Moats. Rhymes with goats. That's a good tip. Thanks so much. We're talking about what makes a good burger and some of the greatest burger joints across the country. That's the name of his book, Hamburger America. Let's stick in Brooklyn. Let's go to Brooklyn. Brennan and Carr, you list.

George Moats (14:23)

It's actually a sandwich place. Not even a hamburger joint. It's a sandwich place. They're one of the great holdouts, one of the very last roast beef sandwich spots in Brooklyn. Apparently. They were everywhere. And they're one of only, I think, two or three that are left in Brooklyn right now.

Alison Stewart (14:37)

So how did they get into the burger business?

George Moats (14:39)

It's a great question. So they had a burger on the menu at some point. And in the old days, they used to serve breakfast, sorry, served Sunday dinner to the staff at Gargiulo's restaurant in Coney Island. And so they would travel. The staff for staff meal would travel to Brandon and car to get, you know, roast beef sandwiches. And they'd also like to get burgers. There was a big crew, so they would put out buckets of burgers and buckets of roast beef, and they didn't like the bread that they had there back in the day. So they would bring their own Italian Bread with them. And they would take this beautiful Italian. They would put on it burgers and the roast beef, and they'd put slices of cheese. And the Gargiula burger was born at that point.

Alison Stewart (15:15)

Let's go to Queens. In the book you wrote, the Donovan's Burger is a lesson in how large burgers should be prepared. First of all, how big is it?

George Moats (15:24)

That's a good question. Nine ounces, I think, maybe 10 ounces. It's a big burger. It's a thick patty burger.

Alison Stewart (15:28)

So how do you cook that?

George Moats (15:30)

They cook it in a steak, like a steak salamander, a steak broiler. So it's cooked the same way a steak is. So it cooks from top and bottom at the same time. Which, by the way, is the same way at the corner bistro. And the idea is that you can cook when you cook two different sides, cook both sides at the same time. It locks in all those juices and cooks it much faster. It's a very fast way. Great way to make a burger, but it cooks it like a steak. So all the juices are locked in there. You take a bite. There are literally juices all over you.

Alison Stewart (15:55)

Well, what is your strategy for eating that large burger?

George Moats (15:57)

Lean forward and come hungry.

Alison Stewart (16:03)

Let's take some more calls. Sandy is calling from New Haven, Connecticut. Hey, Sandy, thanks for calling all of it. We want to hear about your burger joint.

Callers (16:10)

Yeah, thanks for having me. So I went to Yale 10 years ago, and there was a great burger joint called Educated Burger. They had the best char grilled burgers. And if you know any Yale student or alumni that was there around that time, they would vouch for it. It seems closed down, but it was truly a really good burger.

George Moats (16:30)

It was a good burger. It's true. And I didn't make the book because it closed down, I think, before I knew about it. But I did know about the Yankee Doodle. Yankee Doodle is a great spot also. And they're also gone. Also from New Haven.

Alison Stewart (16:39)

Let's talk to Sean in Bed Stuy. Hi, Sean. Thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air. Sean's not there. Let's talk to Seth in New Jersey. Hey, Seth, thanks for calling, all of it.

Callers (16:53)

Hey, there. Thank you so much for talking. Great conversation. I'm a native Brooklyn idol, though. I've been in Jersey City for a while, and I had two quick questions. Thanks. First of all, do you remember a place, it was called Nick's or Big Nick's on the Upper west side. They made a really sick Burger.

Alison Stewart (17:09)

Yes, I remember that.

George Moats (17:10)

That was a great spot. Yeah, the Greek spot.

Callers (17:13)

And they.

George Moats (17:13)

Greek spot.

Callers (17:14)

Yes, it was. Yes, yes. It was really a diner, you know, per se. But it, but they just made a phenomenal burger and they stayed open. It was either 24 hours or I

George Moats (17:22)

think it was a 24 hour place. I would, I would go there at 2 o' clock in the morning. No problem.

Alison Stewart (17:27)

For ABC News overnight, we would order from Big nick's at like 2:30 in the morning. Anyway, continue on, John.

Callers (17:33)

There you go. Yeah, and that was my experience too. It was usually hours. I ended up there. But the real question I wanted to ask you. Thank you. So what is your feeling about the phenomenon of Smash Burgers, which I have to wonder if somebody with your level of expertise really takes even seriously?

George Moats (17:50)

Well, of course I take it seriously. Absolutely. You know, the reality is the Smash burger is the original American hamburger and people think it's a trend and it's. Would you call it a. The caller said it was a phenomenon. I think it is phenomenal. Phenomenal. It's not a recent phenomenon. That's probably what he's referring to. But it is unquestionably the original American hamburger method because they would take, you know, portioned balls of beef and they would smack them with the back of a spatula to get them flat so they would cook faster. It was literally done for speed. Only for speed.

Alison Stewart (18:21)

That's so interesting. This one says my favorite is the California burger. The burger is pre mixed with a finely chopped celery and carrots, then fried and served with lettuce and tomato. Very juicy and tasty. You heard that before?

George Moats (18:34)

No, but I've done that. Mix ins are always tough.

Alison Stewart (18:37)

For me, it's a tough one. Okay. This says best burger upstate New York at The pines at Mount Tremper outside of Woodstock, celebrating 10 years ago. 10 years this week. It's an amazing burger. This one says one of my favorites was a hatch green burger at Buckhorn in San Antonio, New Mexico.

George Moats (18:56)

Yes. Right near the Owl Bar, also in San Antonio, New Mexico.

Alison Stewart (19:00)

This says Buddha Smash Burgers in Henderson, North Carolina. That's.

George Moats (19:06)

They're newer places.

Callers (19:07)

All right.

Alison Stewart (19:07)

All right, let's go out to Long Island. Hildebrandt.

George Moats (19:11)

Hildebrandt.

Alison Stewart (19:12)

All right, tell us something that's special about Hildebrandt.

George Moats (19:14)

Well, it's been around for forever. I think probably the most. To me, the most special thing that happened recently was that we almost lost it and we were all trying to find ways to get people excited to maybe buy it. Or even preserve the beautiful neon sign on the outside. Anything. The business was going down and a guy walked in for dinner one night. He was taking his dad to dinner there, and he looked at the owner and he said, I'll buy it. His name is Randy Sarf.

Callers (19:38)

Wow.

George Moats (19:39)

And to me, those are my hamburger heroes, the ones that can see the need to preserve this history and go ahead and just buy it if they can, if they can afford it. And he did. So Randy Sarf bought this place and he himself, he's also. He owns a lot of horses. He's a horse guy. And he's actually. What he's done is he's upgraded the restaurant and kept everything the way it really pretty much the way it is with an upgrade.

Alison Stewart (20:02)

We are talking about great burgers. The name of the book is Hamburger America, A state by state guide to 220 of the greatest burger joints across the country. Its author is George Moats. He's the owner of hamburger America in SoHo. Listeners, do you enjoy a good quality burger? Where do you go to get one? Shout out your best burger joints in your neighborhood, your borough or across the country. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. This says shout out to Fred's on Amsterdam Avenue at 82nd Street. My current favorite burger in Manhattan. This is for us. It says Big Nick's was open 23 hours, but they never told you which hour it was closed. That's very funny. Let's talk to in Brooklyn. Hi, Dean, thanks for calling all of it.

Callers (20:50)

Yeah, hi, George, I'm wondering if you've ever gone upstate New York to Rochester, where we don't call a hamburger a hamburger. We call it a ground ground. And it's a super thick patty. It's got holes in it, almost like a waffle. And you get it with everything. You just say everything, which includes chili, a meat sauce, chili on top, mayo, all the other stuff.

George Moats (21:10)

Yeah, so you've got Bill Gray's, Tom Wall, and what's the other one? Oh, Shallers, as they pronounce it in Rochester. Shallers, yeah.

Callers (21:19)

Don and Bob, you do know your Rochester.

George Moats (21:22)

Oh, yeah, those are great. We just put Schallers in the book recently. Schallers is a great, great spot. I love it so much.

Alison Stewart (21:27)

Let's talk to Jeff who is calling in from Queens. Hey, Jeff, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.

Callers (21:33)

Hi, good afternoon to both of you. So I have two quick comments. I'll say the best burger I've ever had in my life was at Kuma's in Chicago. For those in the Midwest or Chicago, it's sort of a legendary because it plays heavy metal like, and I mean heavy metal, heavy metal bar that also serves a really sort of world class hamburger. The other point I wanted to make, and I'm going to push back a little, George, is that you said earlier in the segment that, you know, you didn't necessarily value a place that served a hamburger that or not that you didn't value, but you said, you know, why go to a burger place that serves vegetarian burger or vice versa. And I was just going to point out that, that my partner, she's a vegetarian. So we appreciate a place like our local bear burger down the street from us that has two vegetarian burger options on the menu and still serves up a quality burger. So for us it really works and we place some value in that.

George Moats (22:31)

No, I'm sure I just, my only comment was that I don't know how to and I didn't want to pretend like I did. That was the difference. If you have to and you can, that's one thing. But also I'm in a neighborhood where there are. There's probably 10 veggie burgers within four blocks of me. And I prefer that people went to those experts in veggie burgers than try to come to me. That was the only reason. And it's true. You go to a vegetarian, you go to a vegetarian house, there's no meat. So I'm not sure why we'd do the other way around anyway.

Alison Stewart (22:57)

So let's head over the bridge to Hackensack, New Jersey. White manna hamburgers, you say? White manna is beyond a doubt one of the most historically important burger joints in America. Why are they so important?

George Moats (23:10)

It started out as the diner of the future. It was an actual exhibition at the 1939 World's Fair. And when the fair was over, a guy named Bridges, last name Bridges, he decided to buy the actual exhibit, the Diner of the Future, which. The Diner of the future, by the way, just so you know, it was a griddle in the middle of a room and it was surrounded by customers sitting at a round counter. And the idea was, it was based on efficiency. It was the idea of indoor fast food was where one person could then just could send out burgers in every possible direction in a circle from a center point. It was an open kitchen. And basically the same thing we have at Hamburger America. We have our own version of the white mana kitchen. Today there's only two left. And the one that I like is because it's the older, not the one that's actually from the fair, but the one that's a newer one. It's in Hackensack. And it's also, it's set up the same way where you walk in. It's extraordinarily efficient. And I can't understand why more people don't make hamburger restaurants like that anymore.

Alison Stewart (24:13)

Let's talk to Ken calling in from Queens. Hey, Ken, where's your favorite place to go to get a burger?

Callers (24:19)

Well, first let me start by saying I've been to Hildeurand, great place, but all American in Massapequa. Classic place. Get your burgers, get your homemade fries, vanilla chocolate, strawberry milkshakes. Phenomenal place.

Alison Stewart (24:33)

Let's talk to Talia in Brooklyn. Hey, Talia, where do you go?

Callers (24:37)

Oh, love Cozy Royale in Brooklyn. They make a great burger. They get their meat like right around the corner from their butcher. They own a butcher shop around the corner. So the meat's always super fresh and they do a great dry, aged burger.

Alison Stewart (24:49)

Let's go to our last caller, Brendan from South Orange. Where do you go, Brendan?

Callers (24:56)

I really love a place in Buffalo, New York. It's called Ted. Maybe more well known for hot dogs, but the burger is excellent.

Alison Stewart (25:03)

Thanks so much for calling in, George. If you could get on a plane right now and have a burger anywhere in the 50 United States or Puerto Rico, where would you go?

George Moats (25:13)

I don't play favorites. House. Just a couple, just a couple places two blocks away. My restaurant is great. They create burgers over there. No, I can't play favorites. I can't. The minute I play favorites, I'm in trouble. I would say of the 220 restaurants in my book, I'd go to any of those.

Alison Stewart (25:30)

What do you think is the next big trend for hamburgers? I know you're about simplicity, but if you had to think about what's the next trend in hamburger cuisine, what would it be?

George Moats (25:40)

We go back and forth between, you know, thin patty, should it be a thin patty? Should be a thick patty, should be thin, should be, you know, whatever. It. I just, I imagine it's just going to go back and forth between the two. I think there's a lot of trends out there right now where the patties are super, super thin. And I think we're going to start to move back to a slightly thicker patties. People actually want to be able to bite into something that's not too thin. They want to have a, they want to have a kind of lack of a better term, a beefy hamburger experience.

Alison Stewart (26:04)

I've been talking to restaurant owner, chef and author George Moats, whose book Hamburger State by state guide to 220 of the greatest Burger Joints across the Country. It comes out tomorrow. Thanks for coming to the studio.

George Moats (26:18)

Thanks for having me in.

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