A Story of Change and Cheesecake on the Upper West Side

Summary

Podcast Title: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Mark Kurlansky
Episode: A Story of Change and Cheesecake on the Upper West Side
Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction: Summer Reading Challenge and Mark Kurlansky's Novel

Alison Stewart opens the episode by highlighting WNYC's vibrant community engagement through their summer reading challenge, where over a thousand participants are encouraged to read five books across diverse categories. One notable suggestion is Mark Kurlansky's latest novel, Cheesecake, described as an embodiment of New York City's essence, featuring elements like cheesecake, a Greek diner, and Upper West Side real estate.

Alison Stewart [00:55]:
"Author Mark Kurlansky's latest novel would make a fine choice because it is about as New York as it gets. It involves cheesecake, a Greek diner, and Upper west side real estate."

Exploring Cheesecake: Themes and Inspirations

Mark Kurlansky delves into the inspiration behind Cheesecake, revealing his fascination with an ancient recipe by Cato, a Roman senator from 160 BCE. Kurlansky was intrigued by the idea of using this archaic and incomprehensible recipe as a literary device to explore how different characters interpret the same instructions, thereby highlighting the essence of individual creativity over the written word.

Mark Kurlansky [01:46]:
"Cato was a right wing Roman politician, a senator. He wrote this recipe about 160 BCE, making it the earliest published recipe that we know of... recipes are not what make the dish. What makes the dish is the cook who's trying to follow the recipe."

The novel is set on West 86th Street between Columbus and Amsterdam, capturing the dynamics of a neighborhood in transition. The story revolves around the Catsikis brothers, originally from the Cyclades in Greece, who migrate to New York City in the 1970s with aspirations of establishing a Greek diner on the Upper West Side.

Mark Kurlansky [04:11]:
"They come from the Cyclades, and they've known other people who came and all said they did quite well and told them that the way you do well is you get a Greek diner. That's how you do it."

Character Dynamics: Art vs. Nicky

Kurlansky introduces the central characters, Art and Nikki, portraying them as opposites. Nikki embodies charm and charisma, essential for the diner’s initial success, while Art represents business acumen and ambition, driving the family's entrepreneurial ventures.

Mark Kurlansky [06:31]:
"Nikki is one of those occasional Greeks who looks like out of mythology, just incredibly beautiful and not a lot of drive, not a great intellect, but charms everybody."
Mark Kurlansky [06:52]:
"Art... has a lot of business smarts and is very ambitious."

Cheesecake as a Literary Device

Cheesecake serves as a metaphorical anchor in the novel, symbolizing tradition amidst change. Kurlansky emphasizes his belief that food reflects cultural and societal nuances, providing deeper insights into character development and community dynamics.

Mark Kurlansky [07:23]:
"Food tells you a lot about people and a society and you can learn everything. I think food really tells us a lot."

Neighborhood Transformation: From Community Hub to Transience

The Upper West Side, particularly West 86th Street, undergoes significant transformation throughout the novel. Kurlansky, reflecting on his 28-year residency in the area, describes the shift from a tight-knit, culturally diverse community to a transient neighborhood dominated by wealthier, often non-New Yorker residents.

Mark Kurlansky [12:18]:
"What's changed the most about West 86th Street? Well, the people, the people who come in now are much wealthier. They're often not New Yorkers... it's become a neighborhood of transitory buildings."

This change underscores the central conflict in the novel: the struggle to preserve neighborhood culture against the pressures of gentrification and economic displacement.

Violetta's Story: Bridging Art and Entrepreneurship

Violetta, originally Veronica, represents the intersection of art and commerce. Her transformation from a humble background to a celebrated model mirrors the broader themes of aspiration and identity within the evolving neighborhood landscape.

Mark Kurlansky [14:53]:
"She wants to be more interesting. She becomes a famous model with the name Violeta... Meanwhile, all she wanted to do was go to the Greek diner and have root beer floats."

Appendix: The History of Cheesecake

Kurlansky's Cheesecake includes a comprehensive appendix titled "Cheesecake: A History." This section traces the evolution of cheesecake from ancient Roman times to its establishment as a quintessential New York dessert. He discusses various recipes, including less conventional versions, and highlights the cultural significance of cheesecake in different eras and locales.

Mark Kurlansky [17:33]:
"I love historic recipes. I thought I would go back through the whole history of cheesecake from ancient times to modern times and the evolution of it and at what point it became a New York dish."

He credits Arnold Rubin with popularizing New York-style cheesecake in 1929 by introducing cream cheese and graham cracker crusts, distinguishing it from the lighter, chiffon-based LA variations.

Mark Kurlansky [18:08]:
"New York Cheesecake, according to New York legend, was invented in 1929 by Arnold Rubin... the first time they used cream cheese in a cheesecake and the first time they used a graham cracker crust."

Listener Engagement: Favorite Cheesecakes in New York

The episode transitions to an interactive segment where listeners share their favorite cheesecake spots in New York City. Several callers recount personal anecdotes and recommend beloved establishments:

• Lynn from Hartsdale, NY [19:00]:
  "My wonderful recollection is the iconic Lindy's cheesecake... Now, of course, it's gone and I make cheesecake and I have a friend that makes fabulous cheesecake."

• Cecile from Princeton, NJ [19:45]:
  "There is an amazing ube cheesecake in NAX restaurant on First Avenue and like 12th street in Manhattan. It's really good."

• Deborah from Princeton, NJ [20:49]:
  "We every Friday after work would go to Famous Dely, buy two slices of cheesecake... For our wedding had a cheesecake."

• Kevin from Old Brookville, NY [21:49]:
  "Ms. Grimble's cheesecake hands down is the best cheesecake on earth."

Kurlansky fondly recalls his grandmother's cheesecake recipe, highlighting the personal and familial connections that make cheesecake a beloved dessert.

Mark Kurlansky [22:09]:
"I'll tell you what my favorite cheesecake recipe is... my grandmother's. She made a cheesecake with no cream cheese... all farmer's cheese and lemon and eggs and a little sour cream."

Book Recommendations for Summer Reading Challenge

As part of the wrapping-up segment, Kurlansky recommends additional books for the summer reading challenge:

1. The Assistant by Bernard Malmuth
   "It's the story of a struggling Jewish grocery store in Brooklyn."

2. The Belly of Paris by Émile Zola
   "It's the greatest food novel ever written. The story of a political refugee who escapes from French Guiana, makes it back to Paris and hides out in his brother's charcuterie in Les Halles market."

Mark Kurlansky [22:54]:
"It's the story of a struggling Jewish grocery store in Brooklyn... the greatest food novel ever written."

Conclusion: Promotional Remarks and Event Announcement

Alison Stewart concludes the episode by promoting Kurlansky's upcoming talk at Barnes and Noble on the Upper West Side, encouraging listeners to attend and engage further with his work.

Mark Kurlansky [23:57]:
"Oh, and if anybody's around tonight at Barnes and Noble on the Upper west side, seven o'clock, I'm doing a talk."

Key Takeaways

• Cultural Reflection Through Food: Cheesecake uses the evolution of a simple dessert to mirror the broader cultural and societal shifts in a New York neighborhood.

• Character Contrast: The dynamic between Art and Nikki highlights the tension between tradition and modernization, a central theme in the narrative.

• Neighborhood Transformation: The Upper West Side's transition from a diverse, tight-knit community to a transient, affluent area serves as a microcosm of urban change.

• Personal Connections to Cuisine: Listener stories emphasize how food, particularly cheesecake, serves as a vessel for personal memories and communal identity.

• Historical Context: The appendix provides a rich historical backdrop, enhancing the narrative's depth and offering readers a comprehensive understanding of cheesecake's place in culinary history.

Notable Quotes

• Mark Kurlansky [07:23]:
  "Food tells you a lot about people and a society and you can learn everything."

• Mark Kurlansky [12:24]:
  "It's become a neighborhood of transitory buildings."

• Mark Kurlansky [18:08]:
  "New York Cheesecake was invented in 1929 by Arnold Rubin... the first time they used cream cheese in a cheesecake and the first time they used a graham cracker crust."

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For more insights into the intersection of culture and community, tune into future episodes of All Of It on WNYC.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Listen, do you have more zucchini from the garden that you know what to do with? Do you have tomatoes coming out of your ears? New York Times food reporter and recipe columnist Melissa Clark joins us tomorrow with tips on what to make with your abundant produce. And we want you to call in and share your ideas and questions. That's in the future. But now let's get this hour started. Over a thousand of you have signed up for our summer reading challenge where we challenge you to read five books from five categories. One of those categories is to read a book about or set in New York. Author Mark Kurlansky's latest novel would make a fine choice because it is about as New York as it gets. It involves cheesecake, a Greek diner, and Upper west side real estate. Kurlansky writes about one Greek families immigrating to New York in the 1970s. They settle in Queens but decide to open a diner on the Upper west side because they hear it's a neighborhood that's in transition. We also get a history lesson about one particular cheesecake, one of the oldest recorded recipes written by Cato, a Roman senator. The novel is called Cheesecake and it is out today. James Beard Award winning author Mark Kurlansky is my guest now. Welcome back to wnyc.

[Mark Kurlansky]

Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

We are so excited to have you here. But I want to, I want to get into this cheesecake recipe from Cato. Please remind us who Cato is and how did you find out about the cheesecake?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Cato was a right wing Roman politician, a senator. He wrote this recipe about 160 BCE, making it the earliest published recipe that we know of. And I always thought it was very odd that the first recipe would be for cheesecake. But it gets odder when you try to read the recipe. I mean, it's really incomprehensible. And if you try to strictly follow the recipe as written, you will get something that's completely inedible. So, you know, I always thought, wouldn't it be fun to have, you know, a fiction piece where all the, where a lot of people were trying to do this recipe and everybody did it completely differently, you know, making the point, the whole truth about recipes is that recipes are not what make the dish. What makes the dish is the cook who's trying to follow the recipe. And then this idea somehow meshed with another old idea I'd had. I live in the Upper west side and I wanted to write, I wanted to write a Novel about the changes in the community and really kind of the destruction of the neighborhood culture. So I wrote a novel about West 86th street between Columbus and Amsterdam. The entire book is on that block. And a Greek diner wants to go upscale, and they decide to introduce this Cato recipe. And the New York Times says it's great. And then everybody else wants to do the recipe, but they're all doing it differently. And, you know, there's this idea that the modernist writers had, like Virginia Woolf and James Joyce, that the best way to really understand a community was to show a party. So in this book, there are a number of parties, four parties, in which the main feature is Cato's cheesecake. Completely different. Completely different dish in each party. And the book is really about the conflicts of trying to survive in the neighborhood.

[Alison Stewart]

This family, they want to come to New York City. A Greek family. What draws them to the city?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, they. They come from the Cyclades, and they've known other people who came and all said they did quite well and told them that the way you do well is you get a Greek diner. That's how you do it. So, I mean, that was their plan. And they quickly saw, or one of them, who's very entrepreneurish, the other two weren't really saw that real estate was where it was at and buying real estate. And the interesting thing about talking about cheesecake in this neighborhood is this is a neighborhood that was famous for cheesecake, famous for bakeries. They all went out of business because of high rents, which most of the neighbors saw as a tragedy. But this Greek guy saw it as the way things should go. You know, they can't pay enough rent. Get rid of them, get somebody else.

[Melissa Clark]

They decide to call themselves the Katz Brothers. That's not their name.

[Mark Kurlansky]

No, their name is Catsikis. But, you know, they were told that there were Jews in the neighborhood, and Jews are very good business. So they called themselves cats.

[Melissa Clark]

How would you describe the diner that they made?

[Mark Kurlansky]

The original diner, or what it became?

[Alison Stewart]

The original.

[Mark Kurlansky]

The original diner was, you know, it had a linoleum floor and Formica counters and chrome lining and chairs upholstered with plastic. And they served, you know, cheeseburgers and fries. And a lot of their things were very good, though, their cheeseburgers and anything with cheese, because they actually made their own goat cheese.

[Alison Stewart]

They had a goat.

[Mark Kurlansky]

They had a goat in Queens. They lived in Queens, and they had a goat, which, you know, is completely illegal. And so they supplied the restaurant with their own goat cheese. The island they came from In Greece was a goat cheese producing island.

[Alison Stewart]

And the two people in the book, the two brothers in this book are Art and Nikki. And you write that they're opposites. How so?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, Nikki is one of those occasional Greeks who looks like out of mythology, just incredibly beautiful and not a lot of drive, not a great intellect, but charms everybody. And he's just wonderful to talk to. And every restaurant should have one of these guys. Art, on the other hand, who is balding and doesn't have Nicky's looks at all or his charm, but has a lot of, a lot of business smarts and is very ambitious.

[Alison Stewart]

Why can something like cheesecake be used as a good literary inspiration for the story that you want to tell about the Upper west side?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, to begin with, it's my whole feeling about food. I think food tells you a lot about people and a society and you can learn everything. I'm frustrated often that writers, even the great writers, don't tell us enough about what people are eating. Tolstoy was very good about that. I mean, Anna Karenina, you know exactly what they're eating and it tells you a lot. But if you don't know what people are eating, you got to take a much longer route to them. Food really tells us a lot.

[Alison Stewart]

We are talking to Mark Kurlansky. His new novel is Cheesecake. It is out today. We're going to ask listeners to call in. We want your input. What's the best cheesecake you've ever had in New York City? Where do you go? Give us a call or text us. 2124-3396-9221-2433, wnyc.

[Melissa Clark]

Maybe it's cheesecake from the Upper west.

[Alison Stewart]

Side or maybe someplace that you just think deserves recognition.

[Melissa Clark]

Our number, 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. While our listeners are calling in, I'm gonna ask you to read a section from your book for us. Please set it up and tell us what we're gonna hear.

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, this is about art and Nicky. Art could change tactics as easily as he could change nationalities as gently as he could. He pointed out to Adara and Nicky that if the restaurant was going to profit from the transition, they had to learn to modernize. He declared that the diner was now to be called Mykonos. Their new restaurant was to offer what Art called a modern international cuisine. Art hired a new chef, Mario di Capri, no more from Capri than the Milanos were from Milan, who was said to be a three Star Italian chef, though they did not know who who had given him those three stars. Adara would still supply the goat cheese. Nicky would still be the greeter. Only now he would be called the Matri D. Before even opening, the label modern international cuisine had been scrapped. Art was now calling it modern classical cuisine. To sell food, he reasoned, a new label had to be invented for it. A new century was coming and a new 86th Street. Grossinger's landlord quadrupled their rent and the bakery was no more. Most everyone thought this was a sad moment, but Art thought the closing showed him that he had been right in not getting involved with the bakery. He was impressed with the landlord. If a man owned a property and rented it with short term leases, he had the right to quadruple the rent. If the original tenant left his, he could find someone else. If he could find someone to pay the higher rent, he had the right to raise it.

[Alison Stewart]

That was Mark Kolansky reading from his book cheesecake. You mentioned 86. This street that you spend so much time on, what did the specific block of this neighborhood mean to you and why does it make sense for the story?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, I mean, to begin with it, I've lived there 28 years, something like that. Raised my daughter there. And it's a block, it's a neighborhood. You know, I walk down the street and I've got 15, 20 people to say hello to. And their dogs. I know the names of all their dogs. In fact, there's a lot of people where I know the names of the dogs but don't really know the name of the owner. I'm not sure how that comes about, but so it was in my mind a very distinct place.

[Alison Stewart]

Distinct how?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, it just had its own neighborhood culture, which was to some extent Jewish, but not entirely Jewish. There were Haitians there. There used to be a lot of Haitians there. And then Haitians disappeared. In my book, there were about three left. But it was a, you know, just a mixed neighborhood with a lot of different kinds of people who were all struggling to survive on West 86th Street.

[Alison Stewart]

What's changed the most about West 86th Street?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, the people, the people who come in now are much wealthier. They're often not New Yorkers, which is okay, I'm not a native New Yorker myself, I'm from New England. But I mean, these are people who have just come to town, they make a lot of money, they stay in an apartment for a year and then go off and buy something somewhere else. So it's become a neighborhood of transitory buildings. And so it's really not at all the culture I once knew there. Character is talking about the disappearance of the land site, which is a Yiddish word which originally meant the old Jewish community, but they use it to mean just the old neighborhood. You know, there were Haitians in the landslide, you know. And then when she says this, Art, he frantically Googles to try to figure out what the word means.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, art sort of.

[Melissa Clark]

He becomes sort of driven by real estate.

[Mark Kurlansky]

Yes, absolutely. It's the American promise he dreamed of.

[Alison Stewart]

Is that what it means to him?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Yes, absolutely. You can go to America and buy real estate and become rich.

[Melissa Clark]

How does it affect the other characters in the book?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, they're much less assimilated. They speak Greek, they raise goats. You know, he wants them to modernize. He gives them Walkmans and they just play old Greek music on the Walkmans. He says, no, no, that's not it. They are much less on this program. But they listen to him and he's making them money and. But they all live out in Queens. Queens, to the people on 86th street, you know, it's just that place you go through to get to the airport.

[Alison Stewart]

One other person's story I want to talk about before we break is Violet Violetta. She was born Veronica. She lies about her age in the book. First of all, why does she change her name?

[Mark Kurlansky]

She wants to be more interesting. She comes from this place. Actually, to be honest, it's modeled after my hometown.

[Alison Stewart]

Really?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Yeah. It's an industrial suburb of Hartford famous for manufacturing ball bearings. And it's the kind of town that you dream of leaving as early as you can. She left quite early. She got to New York, she was beautiful, and she became an artist model. And one of the paintings she posed for became an iconic painting of contemporary art. And so she became a famous model with the Violeta. And she. Meanwhile, all she wanted to do was go to the Greek diner, back when it was a diner, and have root beer floats. She just wants to find a place where she can get root beer floats.

[Alison Stewart]

Art takes an interest in her, to say the least. To say the least. We'll leave it there. What does she see in him? Without giving too much away.

[Mark Kurlansky]

I'm sorry.

[Alison Stewart]

No. What does she see in him?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, she sees. I think she sees him pretty clearly as this driven entrepreneur who wants to make money. And, you know, she's in the art world and it's different. She's not in the real estate world. He's. She thinks he's sort of an interesting guy. But not her world. You know, that's one of the interesting things in the book, is the book is one block long and yet there's all these completely different worlds within this block.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Mark Kurlansky. We're talking about his novel Cheesecake. After the break, we'll talk about the appendix. Cheesecake a history. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Steward. My guest in studio is Mark Kurlansky. We're talking about his novel Cheesecake, which has a pretty hefty appendix which says cheesecake recipes a history first. We've got calls ready to line up about their favorite cheesecake. But tell us a little bit about the appendix.

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, you know, I can't help myself. I love recipes. I love historic recipes. And so I thought I would go back through the whole history of cheesecake from ancient times to modern times and so the evolution of it and at what point it became a New York dish which was completely different and gave a lot of recipes, including for some of the Upper west side places that aren't around anymore.

[Alison Stewart]

You say New York Cheesecake, according to New York legend, was invented in 1929 by Arnold Rubin.

[Mark Kurlansky]

Yeah, Arnold Rubin had a sandwich shop. He actually named sandwiches after celebrities, but the Reuben sandwich wasn't his. He wasn't vain enough to name a sandwich after himself, but he did. He invented this cheesecake. It was the first time they used cream cheese in a cheesecake and the first time they used a graham cracker crust. Now, graham cracker crust was unheard of in New York, but it was a big trendy thing in LA for something called the chiffon piece, which I think tells you everything about the difference between LA and New York, the chiffon pie versus the cheesecake.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's take a couple of calls about Cheesecake. Lynn from Hartsdale, New York. Hi, Lynn. Thanks for making the time to call all of it.

[Caller]

Well, hi, how are you?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Hi.

[Caller]

My first time calling a radio station. So this is exciting. The book sounds fabulous, but my wonderful recollection is the iconic Lindy's cheesecake. My husband and I used to go down there with my in laws and we ate our meal fast because he could not wait to dig into that delicious strawberry or cherry cheesecake. And now, of course, it's gone and I make cheesecake and I have a friend that makes fabulous cheesecake. So I'm going to read your book, I'm going to enjoy it and just give me the name of the book.

[Alison Stewart]

Is Cheesecake Cheesecake and there's a lot of good recipes in the back.

[Melissa Clark]

I have to tell you.

[Mark Kurlansky]

And for the record, I grew up going to Lindy's.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Cecile from Princeton, New Jersey.

[Melissa Clark]

Hi Cecile, thanks for making the time to call all of it.

[Caller]

Hi, thanks for taking my call. I am so into ube, which is a new flavor that has become popular. And there is an amazing ube cheesecake in Naks N A K S restaurant which is on First Avenue and like 12th street in Manhattan. I suggest you guys try it. It's really good.

[Melissa Clark]

What does NAX mean?

[Caller]

NAX is actually the restaurant is a Filipino fusion and it's like comfort Filipino foods. And NAX means wow, you know, that's good in the language.

[Mark Kurlansky]

You know, it just shows you. Herb Grossinger, who was one of the old time cheesecake makers on the Upper west side said to me, you know, you know, you can add anything to a cheesecake.

[Melissa Clark]

There you go. And I love that. Next means wow. Deborah is also calling from Princeton, New Jersey. Hi Deborah, thanks for calling, all of it.

[Caller]

Thank you. This is my first time getting through, so I'm very excited. I used to live on the Upper west side and my husband and I every Friday after work would go to famous dairy, buy two slices of cheesecake, have one half. We'd each have a half on Friday and a half on Saturday and it was the best. And we in fact, for our wedding had a cheesecake.

[Melissa Clark]

Love that story. Thank you for calling. This text says I love cheesecake. It's one I make from scratch with Martha Stewart's recipe. I recently had delicious cheesecake and it was in fact from a Greek diner, the Pompton Queen Diner, Route 23, Pompton Plains, New Jersey. It's really interesting to hear about cheesecake. People have such a love for it.

[Mark Kurlansky]

Yeah, yeah, people are absolutely passionate about it. And different kinds of cheesecakes for different kinds of people.

[Melissa Clark]

Kevin from old Brookville, New York. Hi Kevin. What kind of cheesecake do you like?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Oh my gosh. Thanks for taking my call. I would say Ms. Grimble, cheesecake hands down is the best cheesecake on earth. Ah, well, that's one of the old neighborhood places that was forced out of business.

[Melissa Clark]

I have to ask you out of all the recipes in the back around cheesecake, which one is your favorite?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Mark? Oh, you know, I'll tell you what my favorite cheesecake recipe is. And I wrote about this for Savir magazine. It was my grandmother's. My grandmother, born in Lithuania, grew up on the Lower east side and she made a cheesecake. It had no cream cheese in it. It was all farmer's cheese and lemon and, and eggs and a little sour cream and a regular pie crust. And I have the fondest memories of this cheesecake.

[Alison Stewart]

Before we let you go, you were kind enough to pick out a couple of books that people might want to consider for our summer reading challenge. What are your suggestions?

[Mark Kurlansky]

Well, for a New York book, I suggest the assistant, Bernard Malmuth, which is both things I'm suggesting are kind of food related.

[Alison Stewart]

All right.

[Mark Kurlansky]

It's the story of a struggling Jewish grocery store in Brooklyn. And the other thing I suggest is the Belly of Paris, which, in full disclosure, I translated from French. It's a novel by Emile Zola, which I translated because it is the greatest food novel ever written. It's the story of a political refugee who escapes from French Guiana, makes it back to Paris and hides out in his brother's charcuterie in Les Halles market.

[Alison Stewart]

Our engineer is agreeing with you.

[Melissa Clark]

Very good, she says.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest has been Mark Kurlansky. The name of his book is Cheesecake. It is out today. Thank you for sharing today with us. Your pub day.

[Mark Kurlansky]

My pleasure. Oh, and if anybody's around tonight at Barnes and Noble on the Upper west side, seven o', clock, I'm doing a talk.

[Alison Stewart]

You should go see Mark Colansky tonight at Barnes and Noble. Thanks for the. Thanks for letting us know.

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