Angelina Lippert (2:58)

So it's a bit of a funny story. I had always wanted to do a show on General Dynamics posters because they are this touchstone in graphic design history. They're really beautiful, minimalist mid century designs that kind of try to actualize or visualize scientific concepts in just really dynamic ways. But doing a show on a defense contractor is kind of difficult. Not the easiest sell. And then when we had the space in the calendar, I was like, well, why don't we do a point counterpoint show where I take on General Dynamics and the corporate propaganda that they created and Tim takes on the counter protest movements to those ideas.

Kusha Navadar (3:39)

Was that a first, that point counterpoint design? Have you tried that before?

Angelina Lippert (3:42)

We have never done anything like that before. So it was a really fun exercise to work with a curator who I've overseen doing other projects before. But we've never worked this closely together on anything either. So it was a really nice exercise in using our talents in very different ways.

Kusha Navadar (3:56)

Yeah, it's so interesting to think about using this moment in history and I guess over time, just this milestone in human creation and looking at two different sides of it that kind of run counter. Tim, why is poster art an interesting lens through which to kind of understand the history of nuclear energy?

Tim Medland (4:13)

Specifically, posters, by their very nature, are ephemera. So they're never supposed to last. They're snapshots. And at various points, people have been terrified of the consequences of nuclear fission. And so that's when you get. The highlights pop up. Yeah, and that's why posters work for that.

Kusha Navadar (4:36)

I think it's kind of like the popcorn. You're seeing it just as the kernel. Because the emotion is what leads to the poster.

Tim Medland (4:41)

The emotion is what leads to the poster.

Kusha Navadar (4:43)

Yeah, yeah. So tell me about the story that you're trying to tell here, Angelina. What's the story you're trying to tell about her conception of nuclear energy after World War II?

Angelina Lippert (4:54)

So the show starts with the development of the thermonuclear bomb. Right. In the aftermath of World War II. And that's where General Dynamics posters come into play. So corporate propaganda to convince people to sign up for the development of nuclear energy and all the things that you can do with that, from nuclear powered submarines to controlling the weather, to liquid gases that you use to cool nuclear power plants. A whole gamut of things. Things. And then Tim's posters come in about midway through the show where they like kind of crash into this corporate propaganda as a Counterpoint, mostly starting with the Cuban missile crisis and how people reacted over time, and these ebbs and flows to the overwhelming nuclear threat that kind of surrounded the globe.

Kusha Navadar (5:33)

Wow. Listeners, we'd love to hear from you in this conversation. And I'm saying that as I see a text come through that I think you'll both enjoy. It says, my goodness, you have my favorite curator on the radio right now. Yay, Poster House. So some love to Poster House listeners, do you have any memories of growing up during the age of nuclear anxiety and a fear of nuclear war? Did you have to do drills in school in case of an attack? Call or text us now. We'd love to hear your stories. Or do you remember seeing the posters that we're talking about here? 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Another shout out. Do you live in an apartment building that still has a fallout shelter sign? Or have you particip in any protests calling for nuclear disarmament or safety? What motivated you to join the cause? 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You'll have a chance to talk with Angelina Lippert, who is the executive director and curator of Poster House, and Tim Medland, who is an independent curator. We're talking about a new exhibition at Poster House. It's called Atoms for War and Peace. It's on view now through September 7th. So once the existence of nuclear weapons became known to the public, Tim, how did nuclear energy inspire a later wave of aesthetic design based on what's in the show?

Tim Medland (6:59)

I mean, it's literally the opposite of the General Dynamics posters, which are abstract, beautiful, clean lines. These are supposed to provoke fear, and they do. And it's the reality that while governments were still trying to tell their population that nuclear war was a survivable event, activists were pointing out the obvious that it was not. And so they would use the government propaganda saying, we've got this pamphlet. It will protect you. And point out, via a skeleton holding the pamphlet, that no, a piece of paper telling you to hide behind a door will not protect you from nuclear fallout.

Kusha Navadar (7:45)

So in that case, the skeleton obviously invokes the fear. Are there other aesthetic decisions that you can think of, trends that they would use to kind of invoke the fear?

Tim Medland (7:52)

Aesthetically, That's. I mean, it is what you would expect. It is the skeleton. It is the mushroom cloud in and of itself. It is devastation. It is irradiated figures Nothing, it's all. And it's black and white in the main. You know, there are some. There are quite a lot of colorful posters for marches to ask you to come out. But the actual pure fear tend to be in black and white.

Kusha Navadar (8:22)

Angelina, how do you think about the differences in aesthetics when you compare the kind of the two sides, armament versus disarmament, et cetera. Are there trends that come out for you?

Angelina Lippert (8:31)

Oh, yeah. I mean, the majority of the corporate propaganda is from General Dynamics. That is the sweet spot of my section of the show. And they hired Eric Nitschi, who was a Swiss graphic designer. So he's coming out of that mid century international style, very clean, very crisp, beautiful European modernism. And he's making abstract scientific concepts kind of real through this colorful geometry. And they're really beautiful. They look like. Do you Remember a Windows 98 screensaver?

Kusha Navadar (9:02)

Of course I do. Yeah.

Angelina Lippert (9:03)

They kind of look like the best version of that in many cases. But then you look at. You have to look beyond what it's actually promoting. So, yes, it's showing like this particular branch of General Dynamics makes this thing that's super cool and that helps mankind in some way. But then in the wall labels, what you'll read is like, okay, this is what it's saying, it's advertising, but this is what it's actually advertising. Like I have this one beautiful one again, looks like that moving pipe of the Windows 98 where it's. When they bought liquid carbonic to essentially use gas to cool nuclear reactors, it didn't work out very well. But by doing that, they also suddenly own the supply chain for every soda manufacturer in America. So your favorite soda was owned by a weapons manufacturer, essentially. So there's all these layers to the wall, Tex too, that I find really compelling.

Kusha Navadar (9:54)

Yeah, that's such an interesting way of. I mean, Tim, to your point about. This is a snapshot. It's kind of ephemeral. This interesting confluence of strange bedfell, I guess coming together. We've got some calls. The phones are. The phone lines are full. So let's go to some calls. We've got Pam in Putnam Valley, New York. Hey, Pam, welcome to the show.

Tim Medland (10:14)

Hi.

Pam (10:15)

Thanks for taking my call. You asked if we remembered anything from when we were kids. When I, in the 60s, I remember, went to Catholic school, there was something going on with the Cuban missiles and they made us put our heads. Now I'm thinking about it, I think they made us actually get under the desks.

Kusha Navadar (10:32)

Oh yeah. And you remember doing that, drills like that.

Pam (10:36)

Yeah. But I was real little. That's the only thing I remember.

Kusha Navadar (10:39)

Well, Pam, thank you so much for sharing that because we have a text as well that I think is perfect to go along with your memory. Pam, it's. Are Cuban propaganda posters a part of the exhibit as well? I'll leave it open to either of you.

Tim Medland (10:54)

No, they're not. I mean, there are posters that happen in 1963, so immediately post the crisis warning people of new. You know, they show nuclear explosions, basically. That was the first time that. Well, I remember my parents telling me I was born in 1962, so they weren't sure that I was going to have a first birthday.

Kusha Navadar (11:20)

Oh, wow.

Tim Medland (11:22)

It just was the way it was. And my father was in the forces, so it was very much a part of reality.

Kusha Navadar (11:27)

Yeah, absolutely. Let's go to Bill in Holbrook, New York. Hey, Bill, welcome to the show.

Bill (11:34)

Hey, thanks for taking my call. Yeah. I'm 74 and I was living in South Miami during the Cuban Missile Crisis and. And they had us hiding under our desks or lining up in front of our lockers. And we kids figured out that the reason that they were doing that was not to save our lives, but to better identify the black shadow that used to be a person after the attack. It was pretty darn scary. And we figured that's the same reason they want you buckled into your seat in an airplane crash is because they want to be able to identify the person with the seat number more than think it's going to help anybody actually survive.

Kusha Navadar (12:17)

Oh, wow, Bill, thank you so much for that. I'm hearing this common thread, Tim. This kind of refers to what you were talking about, the fear and the reality of the situation, malaise among the population that existed well beyond that time.

Tim Medland (12:31)

Well, I mean, when I was a teenager, 13 or 14, we lived on one of the giant bases. And my father, who was in the Air Force, said to me, look, if I'm on duty when nuclear war starts, not if, but when, then take your mom and your younger siblings to the highest point by the base and it'll be over in seconds.

Kusha Navadar (12:54)

Wow.

Tim Medland (12:55)

So, yeah, it's stuff that stays with you.

Kusha Navadar (12:58)

Definitely stays with you. Let's go to Mark in Manhattan. Hey, Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark (13:04)

Hello. Yes, thanks for taking my call. I think this is my first call to you guys ever.

Kusha Navadar (13:10)

Oh, wow.

Mark (13:12)

I grew up in. In the 50s. I was born in 52, and in the late 50s, I remember, and especially around the Cuban Missile Crisis, they gave us diagrams to take home to our parents so they could build concrete block fallout shelters in the basement. And we had what they called air raid drills, where we would file out into the hallway and crouch against the wall with our hands over our heads. And from what your earlier caller said, it really does make sense. And we also had signs with that nuclear symbol on it where it directed you to go to the nearest air raid shelter.

Kusha Navadar (14:01)

Wow, Mark, thank you so much for sharing that. We really appreciate it. Let's turn back to the pieces on display here. So the title of the show in part reads Atoms for War and Peace, which I believe is a reference to a statement that President Eisenhower once made. Is that right, Angelina? Yes.

Angelina Lippert (14:17)

So Eisenhower's Atoms for Peace speech, which was delivered to the United nations and inspired the Atoms for Peace campaign that General Dynamics then kind of co opted. It was the idea that if you as a country agree not to build a nuclear arsenal, we, the United States, will give you the training, the technology, and the pipeline to supplies to build your own nuclear reactors and essentially power your country cheaply and quickly in a very efficient way. And it was obviously, this is at the height of the Cold War, so there's this tension of, like, you will align yourself with the United States if you do this. India was the first country to get approved to do this. And over the course of the following 19 years, they actually siphoned off the materials from their nuclear reactor program to build their own nuclear arsenal, which eventually led to the arms race between India and Pakistan. So there are all these, like, domino effects that happen as a result of this Atoms for Peace campaign that, while great in concept, was fairly tricky in execution.

Kusha Navadar (15:19)

Yeah. And you talked about General Dynamics, which played such a big role in this. What do these posters demonstrate about the role of corporate propaganda during this period of time? How big of a role was it playing?

Angelina Lippert (15:34)

I mean, for graphic designers, these are one of those touchstones in design history. But they're also just a really brilliant, for lack of a better term, brilliant way of means of corporate propaganda, because these were things that were solely used basically as scientific convention and then sent out to other businesses they worked with to decorate their offices. And they're gorgeous. More importantly, one section we have in the show that I think is really demonstrative of how embedded these were in our cultural fabric. Do you remember going to Disney World as a kid?

Kusha Navadar (16:09)

Yeah.

Angelina Lippert (16:10)

And do you remember going on the submarine ride?

Kusha Navadar (16:12)

No.

Angelina Lippert (16:12)

Okay. There's a summary ride. It's like the 20,000 leagues under the Sea ride that was sponsored by General Dynamics because they built the first nuclear powered Submari. And so you were riding a ride built by a defense contractor.

Kusha Navadar (16:26)

So they simultaneously owned all the soda manufacturing. Yeah, soda manufacturing, the pipeline. And they were making rides for Disney World.

Angelina Lippert (16:33)

And then there's. We have a video that I remember watching as a child called Our Friend the Atom that Disney produced. And Walt Disney is walking in front of the General Dynamics posters in the offices of Disney as he's introducing this program sponsored by General Dynamics, teaching children about the wonders of atomic energy.

Tim Medland (16:51)

Wow.

Kusha Navadar (16:51)

So it is really an interesting snapshot, all of these posters from a specific and very formative point in not just United States history, but, like you said, domino effect around the entire world. I'm talking with Angelina Lippert, who's the executive director and curator of Poster House, and Tim Medland, who is an independent curator. Together and with her team, they made the new exhibition at Poster House, Adams for War and Peace. It's on view now through September 7th. Our phone lines are full, so I want to take a quick break and when we come back, I want to get more calls. Give us a call if you have a thought. Our phone lines are full right now, so in the meantime, texting works as well. Give us a call at 212-433-9692 or text us at that number. It's 212433, WNYC. More soon. Stay with us. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar and we are talking about a new exhibition at Poster House. It's called Adams for War and Peace. It's on view now through September 7th. We're here with Angelina Lippert and Tim Medland. We are taking your calls. Before we get into more calls, I'm just wondering, where is Poster House? We're getting some folks who are asking that in the chat.

Angelina Lippert (18:11)

It's a great question. Poster house is on 23rd street between 6th and 7th Avenues. It's right off the F stop. You can't miss it. You can also stop by Eataly afterwards.

Kusha Navadar (18:19)

Wonderful. I was wondering, are there specific artists or folks whose work is put on display. Tim, that you want to mention from Poster House as well?

Tim Medland (18:28)

I would have to definitely mention Peter Kennard because Peter is a British artist. So obviously my voice probably indicates dear to my heart. But he was the most prolific of the poster designers in the 70s and 80s, highlighting the dangers of nuclear warfare. But he does it in a marvelously bleak, funny way. And the British defaults. The way we deal with horror is to laugh at it.

Kusha Navadar (18:59)

Yeah, I Was gonna say, that sounds very British.

Tim Medland (19:01)

It's very British. But my favourite poster of his is of this skeleton holding up the Protect and Survive pamphlet. It's obviously the skeleton, so it didn't go quite as planned, but he's appropriated the tagline from the London Times of the period, which was, do you ever wish you were better informed? And so it just. The various bits come together and you smile as you wince, if that makes sense. But he has a number of other posters in the show and he's by far the most prolific.

Kusha Navadar (19:33)

Why are his poster designs so significant?

Tim Medland (19:36)

Well, I think because they were everywhere. But the fascinating thing was that at the time, his work was sponsored by the Greater London Council. So if you can imagine the mayor of the five boroughs sponsoring an artist to basically go against federal government policy and then having them distributed not just across the five boroughs, but across at least the East Coast.

Kusha Navadar (20:05)

Oh, wow.

Tim Medland (20:05)

So it became a massive operation. Wow.

Kusha Navadar (20:08)

Yeah. Do you know what issues regarding nuclear energy were especially important to him?

Tim Medland (20:12)

Basically, Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London, had declared London a nuclear free zone and wanted to disassociate London from the Margaret Thatcher government.

Kusha Navadar (20:24)

Got it. Let's go to some more calls. We've got Rosemary in Westchester. Hey, Rosemary, welcome to the show.

Pam (20:31)

Hi. Hi. How are you? Thanks for taking my call. I definitely respond to the days of emergency drills as a child where we went under our desk. It later occurred to me that going under my desk probably wouldn't have done too much, but we had to also sing a song which was like, duck, duck something or other. That we all did because. And I don't recall being frightened at all because it was kind of made, you know, a routine thing in schools. I was more afraid of the polio vaccine, I can tell you right now. But later in life, I demonstrated against the Shoreham nuclear plant on Long island. There were 15,000 people there, I think. And then later I worked in schools and I acquired sort of a mini collection of a lot of their civil defense items. In the science labs, I found small samples of radioactive material that the teachers were using to instruct the children about the benefits of nuclear energy.

Kusha Navadar (21:28)

Rosemary, thank you so much for that call. I really appreciate it. I'm so interested to hear about your experience in protesting because protest is such a big part of this exhibit. Tim, I know you worked a lot on the protest section of the show. When did nuclear protests really take off and reach its peak?

Tim Medland (21:46)

Its peak was at the time of the Reagan government here and the Thatcher government in the uk. So we'd had this concept that we were going to use neutron bombs across Europe. It countersoviet forces. That was the. And the thing with neutron bombs is they used radiation to destroy people, not property. So it was very easy to characterize it as the ultimate capitalist plot. Get rid of the people. But as long as the property is okay.

Kusha Navadar (22:19)

Interesting.

Tim Medland (22:20)

And so that was a major feature. But then as the Cold War became theoretically hotter, people got more scared and demonstrated on both sides of the Atlantic. And then obviously Gorbachev came in and that's when we had the de. Escalation, the dearmament.

Kusha Navadar (22:40)

I see. Yeah. So it lasted far longer after World War II.

Tim Medland (22:44)

But the fact is that the demonstrations worked.

Kusha Navadar (22:48)

Yeah. Interesting text that I'd love to hear your perspectives on. It says, although this exhibit is 50 plus years old, there are technology companies today that want to bring back nuclear power, especially in AI and cryptocurrency because of their need for so much energy. Any comments? And of course, you know, talking about AI right now isn't exactly what this exhibition talks about, but we're seeing echoes today. Right, Angelina?

Angelina Lippert (23:17)

Yeah, no, we actually bring this up in the show. We were changing the exhibition text as it was being printed because Microsoft, I think, acquired Three Mile Island. And we're like, oh, we have to edit the Three Mile island text because of this. Because there's a. A growing interest in nuclear power plants. Even though there have been so many protests against them and the dangers that they pose, just because it's a cleaner way to power AI, which needs so much energy.

Kusha Navadar (23:42)

Yeah. And it's interesting to see how these pieces, these posters are moments in time, but there is propaganda today. It might not be on a poster, but you see it in all different ways.

Tim Medland (23:53)

Oh, yeah. And there will be propaganda in posters and, and posters come in various forms and I don't doubt that we're probably heading towards another round of anti nuclear demonstrations at some point. And people will make posters.

Kusha Navadar (24:12)

What are the posters of today? Are they memes? Like, what would you. Are there posters that are posters?

Angelina Lippert (24:18)

People are still making posters. I ripped a poster off a wall the other day for an upcoming exhibition. Like, they are still being made and they're still great. We collect posters that are being made today for our collection. So yeah, there are plenty of posters. They're not just memes.

Kusha Navadar (24:32)

Yeah, totally. And they're distributed in all different ways as well. Right. Let's go to Dan in Dumont, New Jersey. Hey, Dan, welcome to the show.

Dan (24:41)

Thanks for having me, guys.

Tim Medland (24:43)

Hey.

Dan (24:43)

So this is a historical event. You know, presentation memorial. I would argue that it's not over. And the reason being, you know, I grew up in the 80s. My grade school had a fallout shelter and when they remodeled, they covered up the entrances. And with all the climate change now, that school with a new headmaster got flooded a couple years ago and they didn't realize that the fallout shelter was there and the health risks associated with having, you know, who knows how much of what kind of water underneath classrooms is still a presence threat even today.

Kusha Navadar (25:27)

Dan, thank you so much for that call. And you actually led into the last question I wanted to ask because, Tim, you were on this show back in 2023 for a different Poster House exhibition about environmental crisis posters from the last 50 years. Given that nuclear energy.

Tim Medland (25:40)

I always get the cheerful stuff.

Kusha Navadar (25:41)

Yeah, yeah, right. But you make it cheerful. Given that nuclear energy is in part part of a climate conversation, how much overlap do you see between that previous exhibition and this one?

Tim Medland (25:54)

There's definite overlap in terms of activism and the role it has to play. It is interesting. One of the posters we have in the latter part of the show is French government poster for their peaceful nuclear program. France is, I think, the only country in the world that has lower CO2 emissions now than it did in the 1960s for the very simple reason that 80% of its electricity is produced by nuclear power. So, you know, we try and give the pros and cons of nuclear power in and of itself can have its uses.

Kusha Navadar (26:34)

Yeah, there's so much interesting history, both in terms of sociology, but also just in terms of aesthetic that you can get from this exhibition. And we really appreciate you coming down. We've been talking to Angelina Lippert, the executive director and curator of Poster House, and Tim Medlin, who's an independent curator about the new exhibition. It's Atoms for War and Peace. It's at Poster House. It's on view now through September 7th. Thank you, listeners so much for sharing all of your questions and your stories and thank you both so much for putting this on and talking to us about it.

Angelina Lippert (27:08)

Thank you.

Kusha Navadar (27:08)

Thank you.

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