Podcast Summary: All Of It – “A Writer's Double Life Blurs Boundaries In 'Sebastian'”

Date: August 2, 2024
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart), WNYC
Guests: Mikko Makala (Director & Writer), Ruri Malika (Actor, plays Max)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the making and meaning of the new film "Sebastian," which follows Max, a young man balancing his day job as a writer and his clandestine life as a sex worker in London. The discussion centers on the complexities of sex work, creative inspiration from lived experience, generational perspectives in queer culture, and the challenges of telling authentic and nuanced stories in cinema. Director Mikko Makala and lead actor Ruri Malika join host Kusha Navadar for an in-depth conversation about their intentions, process, and the film’s reception—particularly within the sex worker community.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Intentions Behind "Sebastian"

• Motivations for Telling This Story

  • Mikko Makala describes moving to London and discovering, through the gay scene, how sex work had become a more common and accepted option, especially with the proliferation of apps and websites:

    “With the aid of technology... the threshold for going into sex work had really lowered. It was really becoming a more and more kind of everyday option in London’s gig economy.”
    (02:23, Makala)

  • Makala wanted to challenge the narrative that sex work is only a last resort:

    “I really wanted to... approach sex work in a sex positive way and in a way where sex work in itself wasn’t questioned as a valid choice.”
    (02:23, Makala)

• Portrayal of Sex Work

  • Both guests discuss the importance of avoiding judgmental or glamorized depictions, building instead a world that feels authentic and non-exploitative.

2. Max/Sebastian: The Character & Performance

• The Script’s Appeal

  • Ruri Malika shares his excitement about the opportunity and praises the script’s depth:

    “The story just gripped me... such beautiful detail and nuance and post come out sexuality. It was just really quite special.”
    (04:44, Malika)

• Crafting a Three-Dimensional Character

  • Malika expresses that Max is beautifully flawed, balancing good and bad:

    “We are all beautifully flawed and there’s so much good and bad in all of us.”
    (05:13, Malika)

Insecurity and Self-Doubt

• Clip from the Film: Writerly Insecurity

  • Max is shown doubting his own story’s merit, even as friends celebrate his publication:

    “I just don’t think it stands out. It’s so unpolished.”
    (05:57, Malika as Max)
    “Max, not everything needs to be some grand statement... This comes from the heart, and that’s why it works. I really don’t think this could have been written by someone who hadn’t lived it.”
    (06:30, Supporting Character)

• Pressure to Succeed

  • Ruri notes Max’s comparison to prodigies like Zadie Smith and Bret Easton Ellis, and the discouragement so common among young creatives:

    “I think Max continuously compares himself to these people who had success so young... it’s so easy to feel downtrodden and like you’re behind.”
    (07:00, Malika)

• Reflections as an Actor

  • Ruri, coming from a background in computer science and recent immersion in queer literature, found personal growth through researching and embodying Max.

    “I am totally a bookworm... I was introduced to so much more when I began prepping for the script... That excitement transferred to the screen.”
    (08:57, Malika)

3. Authenticity in Storytelling

• Research & Preparation

  • For sex work scenes, Malika viewed real interviews and documentaries, aiming to grasp the lived experience, including the positive aspects less often shown:

    “I watched a lot of interviews online just to kind of understand from current sex workers’ perspectives the experience of getting over the shame... and the joy in the line of work that is not talked about as frequently.”
    (10:54, Malika)

• Script as Foundation

  • The emotional arc was thoroughly mapped with Makala, starting from collaborative script discussions and continuing through rehearsals.

Creating Nuance in Client Portrayals

• Humanizing "the Client": Queer Eldership

  • Makala on portraying older gay men not as stereotypes but as complex individuals:

    “I really wanted to approach just the depiction of escorts’ clients with a kind of humanity we don’t often see... Everyone has a slightly different reason [for hiring a sex worker].”
    (14:19, Makala)

  • Importance of bridging queer generational gaps:

    “Gay culture can be terribly, terribly ageist... it was so important... to counter some of those preconceptions.”
    (14:19, Makala)

  • Ruri echoes the value of intergenerational connection:

    “It did solidify the importance of these connections between generations.”
    (16:01, Malika)

4. Themes of Shame & Self-Acceptance

• Editor-Writer Dynamics
  • The film explores Max’s complex feelings about writing from experience—specifically, shame and "shame about shame":

    “Where is that shame coming from for Max? Is it coming from Sebastian, Max’s alter ego, or from Max himself?”
    (17:51, Host)

    • Malika: “I think it’s probably a combination... maybe there’s a feeling of shame that Max feels pursuing something that is so taboo... and I do feel like perhaps the shame sneaks in as Sebastian when Max does begin to enjoy and find different motivations... quite a confronting and conflicting experience.”
      (18:11, Malika)

5. Filming Intimacy: Safety, Trust, and Process

• Role of Intimacy Coordinator

  • Makala describes the essential role of intimacy coordinator Rufai Ajala in choreographing the nuanced and varied sex scenes:

    “We went through all of the scenes, discussing what they should feel like, what the atmosphere should be... so that they could then also take that information into the choreography... having those discussions about boundaries, comfort zones...”
    (19:14, Makala)

• Actor’s Perspective

  • Ruri details the physical and psychological preparation for intimate scenes:

    “We would just play games that get you more and more comfortable... It was all about building these boundaries and respect... In about half an hour, you felt as close and as safe as you do with your best friends, family, or partners even... You don’t even bring in kissing until much later.”
    (21:15, Malika)

6. Reception & Real-World Impact

• Feedback from Sex Worker Community

  • Makala shares heartfelt responses from real sex workers who felt authentically represented:

    “Some of the most rewarding experiences have been... after screenings when some people have come up to me... they felt that this depiction was really authentic. Spoke to them. They felt seen. And those are the moments when I really feel like... we made something authentic.”
    (23:12, Makala)

• On Collaboration

  • Makala praises Ruri’s embodiment of Max/Sebastian:

    “Ruri... so incredibly captured the Max Sebastian that I wrote on the page that I believe that’s got a lot to do with it.”
    (23:51, Makala)

7. Messages & Final Thoughts

• On Empowerment and Self-Acceptance
  • Makala closes with a message for those living double lives or struggling with shame:

    “Just feel empowered in what you’re doing and... do not feel ashamed about it... this film is very much about self-acceptance ultimately as well. So yeah, that would be the message.”
    (25:13, Makala)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Mikko Makala, on sex work as choice:

  “I really wanted to... approach sex work in a sex positive way and in a way where sex work in itself wasn’t questioned as a valid choice.” (02:23)

• Ruri Malika, on playing Max:

  “It was just amazing to have a story that is so about a character that is so three dimensional and real.” (05:13)

• On intimate filmmaking:

  “We would just play effectively games that get you more and more comfortable... it was all about building these boundaries and respect.” (21:15, Malika)

• On reception from sex workers:

  “Some people have come up to me... and they felt that this depiction was really, you know, authentic. Spoke to them. They felt seen.” (23:12, Makala)

Highlighted Timestamps

• 02:23 — Makala on the normalization of sex work
• 04:44 — Malika on first encountering the script
• 05:57 — Film clip: Max doubts his work
• 07:00 — Malika on young creatives feeling behind
• 08:57 — Malika on growing as a reader & actor
• 10:54 — Malika on researching sex work
• 14:19 — Makala on humanizing clients and queer elders
• 17:51 — Host asks about shame in Max’s writing
• 19:14 — Makala on intimacy coordination
• 21:15 — Malika on the process of building actor trust
• 23:12 — Makala on affirmation from sex workers
• 25:13 — Makala’s message of empowerment

Summary

This episode of “All Of It” offers a sensitive, candid, and insightful look at the film “Sebastian”—delving into its origins, its boundary-blurring themes of sex, art, and identity, and the collaborative process of filmmaking. It offers valuable perspectives for those interested in nuanced portrayals of sex work, intergenerational queer stories, and the real-life struggles (and growth) behind creative pursuits. Whether a film lover, creative, or someone curious about modern queer culture, this episode serves as both companion and curator, much like the show itself.