Interviewer / Host (3:40)

Can you talk about that a little bit more from that exposure that you had in London? What was it about the industry on top of the things that you mentioned that you really wanted to reveal or at least point to in this film?

Mikko Makala (3:52)

I think kind of looking, you know, looking at what sex work has become through, you know, through websites and apps and you know, how easy for some people, you know, now is to kind of venture into it. It's so different from, from kind of old fashioned ideas of, you know, kind of being on the side of the road or, you know, in, in a brothel or something like that. And, and so I really wanted to look at, look at it as, as something more commonplace like that.

Interviewer / Host (4:26)

Yeah. A choice you can choose. Yeah. Ruri, you've been in films that feature queer sexuality. Like I'm thinking of your 2022 short film too rough. Go back to when you first read the script of Sebastian Forest. How did it feel that you wanted to be a part of?

Ruri Malika (4:44)

Oh, I mean it was incredible. Like one. I'd never been really even considered as a feature leading person before, so to even have that opportunity was really exciting. But the story just gripped me. It was a full feature length script of such beautiful detail and nuance and post come out sexuality. It was just really quite special. I was really excited with prospect of being a part of it.

Interviewer / Host (5:10)

Was it the story? Was it the character of Max as well? One more than the other?

Ruri Malika (5:13)

Both, both combined. I mean it was just amazing to have a story that is so about a character that is so three dimensional and real. You know, we are all beautifully flawed and there's so much good and bad in all of us. And it was really exciting to explore a character that has such three dimension of both of those elements throughout the film.

Interviewer / Host (5:35)

Yeah, let's get into that character a little bit. Max works in a magazine, he's a talent writer. We seem as a bit shy and insecure and like you were saying, Ruri, really three dimensional in one scene. Max goes to a bookstore to see his short story. Be published. And his friends are excited for him, but Max isn't convinced. Let's listen to a clip of that from the movie.

Ruri Malika (5:57)

I just don't think it stands out. It's so unpolished. What?

McDonald's Employee / Narrator (6:04)

No, it's exactly that rawness that makes it work so well. I mean, the way you capture the intimacy between the lovers and, you know, then how it suddenly turns to distance.

Mikko Makala (6:19)

Yeah.

McDonald's Employee / Narrator (6:20)

Collapsing those two time frames together like that in one moment is fantastic.

Ruri Malika (6:26)

I mean, yeah, it's atmospheric, sure, but is it really saying anything?

McDonald's Employee / Narrator (6:30)

Max, not everything needs to be some grand statement. You know, if it's well observed, if it's truthful. This comes from the heart, and that's why it works. I really don't think this could have been written by someone who hadn't lived it.

Interviewer / Host (6:53)

Ruhry, why do you think Max feels so insecure about his work?

Ruri Malika (7:00)

I think it's tricky. I think he makes lots of comparisons to, you know, Zadie Smith and Brett Easton Ellis, who have notoriously published novels at such young ages. And I wonder if Max continuously compares himself to these people who had success so young, you know, And I think in an industry where so many people pop off so often, I think it's so easy to feel downtrodden and like you're behind, even if you really are working your best and doing really good work.

Interviewer / Host (7:29)

That's such a. I'm sure many writers out there can relate to that. We have a writer sitting right across the table from us right now. You listen to Miko, you listen to Ruri saying what sounds so authentic. Does that resonate for you yourself, as a writer?

Mikko Makala (7:43)

I mean, Max certainly sets the bar very high for himself. And I think at that age, I mean, you know, of course, there's a lot of that. That kind of desire to succeed, and that ambition is. Is something that, you know, probably comes from. From my own ideas about what I feel like, you know, as a filmmaker, where I felt like I needed to be at 25 or something like that, when. When, you know, really what you, as an artist, what, you kind of grow to realize that you need a lot of patience to. To kind of keep making progress. But absolutely there, you know, the pressure to succeed. Especially now, everyone on social media as well, comparing ourselves to everyone else's success. It's such a massive kind of pressure.

Interviewer / Host (8:32)

Yeah. And I think that pressure exists in a lot of different ways. We're talking about the humanities right now. Ruri, some research we did found out you have a bachelor's in computer science. Is that Right?

Ruri Malika (8:44)

Yes, that is correct.

Interviewer / Host (8:45)

Which is wonderful. You're playing a character here who is definitely in the humanities. The way you captured his love for writing and literature in your performance is so compelling. Are you a bookworm yourself?

Ruri Malika (8:57)

I am totally a bookworm, yeah. I think I never used to be. I think it was during about COVID I started to get into reading and then just became absolutely obsessed. Unfortunately, I was already into a lot of the kind of queer literature that Max was reading, but I was introduced to so much more when I began prepping for the script. And through Mikko, so many different authors and novels that I really got to dive into. And it was exciting. And it's actually really nice to hear that that excitement transferred to the screen as well.

Interviewer / Host (9:26)

So for you, encapsulating that, that excitement came quite naturally. Was it. Were there specific works that really got that you were thinking of, that you were channeling when you were thinking of Max's love? Tell us how you approach that, that love for literature that came across the screen?

Ruri Malika (9:42)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, very early on I asked Mikko what he was reading when he was writing the script, and that was things like City of Night by John Ritchie or Savage Nights by Cyril Collard. You know, all these queer literatures that are kind of autobiographic in a way, and Genee and things like that. So it was really these kind of things I got really into and then obviously got very into Bret Eastern Ellis. I think prior to the film, I'd only read American Psycho. And then I kind of dived in with the Shards and Less Than Zero. And that was probably one of the most interesting in terms of it related so closely to the characters autofiction and masking that, like, what is truth in this and what is fictionalized and fantasized.

Interviewer / Host (10:29)

That element of what's truth in this, I think is so important, especially not just talking about Max's love for literature, but also, you know, very, very obviously getting into the mind yourself as an actor of somebody who does sex work. Can you talk a little bit about your process for finding the truth in there? Did you do interviews or speak to anyone that helped wrote the screenplay? What was your approach there?

Ruri Malika (10:54)

Yeah, totally. I mean, for me, I watched a lot of interviews online just to kind of understand from current sex workers perspectives the experience of getting over the shame about it and coming out, family and the joy in the line of work that is not talked about as frequently. But a lot of the journey and the emotional aspect came just directly from the script and from talking to Mikko. And things, I think, because Max's experience with sex work begins from the first page, you almost got to learn and grow an experience with him through the experiences with the clients. So it was actually a very organic path of finding the emotion.

Interviewer / Host (11:35)

Yeah. So the work was what was already in on the page. Mikko, for you, what conversations did you have with Ruri to help support him doing this role to ensure that the humanity of these individuals that you wrote about really came through?

Mikko Makala (11:50)

I think it was about, well, you know, kind of first of all, I suppose, for every collaborator on the project, really kind of ensuring that everyone was on the same page about making a film that is sex positive and that, you know, looks at sex work from an empowering point of view that's non judgmental, frank, authentic, but which also means that it's also not attempted to glamorize anything either, either, whilst still, you know, acknowledging risks associated with sex work as well. So I think kind of just getting that, that notion across from the beginning, but then it was very much about building the character and, you know, kind of together ensuring that we were both on the same page about, about the script and the contents and meanings of the scenes. And so throughout pre production and whilst we were waiting for the finance for the film, we met up often to go through the script in really minute detail, go through the scenes, really kind of make sure that we both were in agreement about the emotions and motivations everywhere and just make sure that that character arc was really mapped out by the time we got on set.

Interviewer / Host (13:09)

We have to take a quick break. We're talking about the movie Sebastian. When we come back, we're going to hear some more clips and talk a little bit more about that character arc that you're referring to. Stay with us. This is all of it on wnyc. We're talking about the film Sebastian. It's with the Miko Makola and the protagonist, the actor Ruri Molica. Sorry. The movie is about a young man named Max who is trying to make a career as a novelist, but moonlights as a sex worker in London. And before the break, we talked a lot about Max's journey. The film is of course centered around that, but Miko, what I found especially interesting in this movie was that we also get a portrait of some of the men he meets, and a lot of them are older gay men. And stories of queer elders are kind of rarely told in cinema. What did you want to bring out from Max's conversations with them?

Mikko Makala (14:19)

I really wanted to approach just the depiction of over Escorts clients with a kind of humanity that we don't often see. I think so often clients might be depicted in a very one dimensional way or as antagonists or, or as kind of pathetic. And I really wanted to avoid that and really try to look at each person, think about the reasons for why they have hired a sex worker. Everyone has a slightly different reason and really think about those reasons from a human point of view. And certainly, as we know, gay culture can be terribly, terribly ageist. So I think there was also a reason why it was so important, especially then, you know, with the character of Nicholas who comes into the film about halfway through to really kind of counter some of those maybe preconceptions and also, you know, surprise Max in a way through his encounter with this older queer gentleman and kind of understand, you know, gain a better understanding of what we can find through those surprise encounters as well.

Interviewer / Host (15:41)

Surprise encounters and learning, I think is so key. And Ruri, I'm wondering, for you, entering this project, reading and embodying Max's experiences, did you learn about queer eldership in any way? Anything that maybe not surprised, but anything that came out for you while you were working on this project?

Ruri Malika (16:01)

Yeah, I guess so. I think, I think queer eldership has been something that I've definitely noticed, especially when I moved to London. I think it's, it's really important to, to meet people who are older and queer as well and pass on that history and even learn things that you didn't know or even just someone who's a few years older than you that came out before you did. And like just that discussion is really important. And I think through the film as well, it did solidify the importance of these connections between generations.

Interviewer / Host (16:35)

You know, as Max delves deeper into this world of sex work, his writing seems to flow easier. He begins writing about his encounters scene by scene. And we see him typing pages and pages of his novel and sending drafts to his editor. But he encounters some problems. Let's listen to a clip where he gets feedback from the editor.

McDonald's Employee / Narrator (16:56)

So I read your new pages. I think the character is really intriguing and your prose as vivid as ever. But I just wonder if it gets a little repetitive, this series of the same kinds of encounters with generally always older men. I'm just wondering what it might look like to see him in a slightly different situation, only to give it a bit more variety and maybe to explore how he might react in new context. Also, I was just a little thrown by the bit about Sebastian. Intermittent feelings of shame and the. How did you put it shame about shame, which definitely makes sense, but it's just that I thought you said you were struck by how little shame your interviews felt. I'll send you my new chapters tonight. Anxious to get your thoughts before this mission.

Interviewer / Host (17:51)

That's from the film Sebastian and Ruri. We hear that comment regarding shame and shame about shame. Where is that shame coming from for Max? Is that shame coming from Sebastian, Max's kind of alter ego as a moonlight sex worker, or from Max himself? Or some combination? What do you think?

Ruri Malika (18:11)

I think it's probably a combination. You know, I think it's tied up in everything. I think maybe there's a feeling of shame that Max feels pursuing something that is so taboo in his line of work. And perhaps maybe that's fueled by the fear of judgment from his peers. And I do feel like perhaps the shame sneaks in as Sebastian when Max does begin to enjoy and find different motivations throughout these experiences. I mean, learning more about yourself through these things is probably quite a confronting and conflicting experience. And I can understand if that would bring feelings of shame.

Mikko Makala (18:48)

Yeah.

Interviewer / Host (18:49)

Mikko, Talking about the movie in the production sense, there are a number of truly intimate scenes, both emotionally and physically watching it. The idea of an intimacy coordinator immediately came to mind for me. How do you use an intimacy coordinator effectively? How did you think through the intimate scenes that you were filming? What did you want to show through them? How did you approach it?

Mikko Makala (19:14)

Yeah, so we worked with a wonderful intimacy coordinator called Rufai Ajala, and they were very essential to the process. Of course, the scenes were already quite detailed in the script because they do so much character work and story work. So it was never, you know, Max and Nicholas have sex or anything like that in the script, but they were quite detailed. But so we then went through with the intimacy coordinator, went through all of the scenes, kind of discussing also kind of what they should feel like, what the atmosphere should be like, what the mood is like here and, you know, what that scene is saying, so that they could then also take that information into kind of thinking about. Thinking about the choreography further. And you know what? As a director, I found the intimacy coordinator really essential and, you know, so helpful in the process was the work then that they did with the actors in, you know, having those discussions about boundaries, having discussions about. And, you know, Ruri will be able to talk about this further as well, and, you know, about their comfort zones and things like that. And, you know, during the shoot, then the way in which they were able to, you know, help me in kind of building that trust amongst the actors, because there are a number of sex scenes, many of them, you know, were with a co star who was only on set for one or two days. So it was really, really helpful to have with the task of building that trust amongst them quickly.

Interviewer / Host (20:59)

And, Ruri, I'm wondering for you. You hear Miko saying that. I'd love to hear what the team did to support you through that work. Maybe what Miko did, as well as the intimacy coordinator, to create the setting that would help you act as effectively as possible.

Ruri Malika (21:15)

I mean, it's actually such an interesting process. I'd never really worked with an intelligence intimacy coordinator before. I'd not done too many intimate scenes before. But really we would begin in a room with the intimacy coordinator and the other actor, and we would just play effectively games that get you more and more comfortable. And you'd put your hand on each other's bodies and see where is safe. And like a red, green, blue kind of scale. And that was something that you could change each day. It might get to shooting and you don't feel comfortable being touched on your arm, and that's okay. And it was all about building these boundaries and respect. I mean, one of the games was literally just, can I take a step closer to you? Yes. And you take a step closer until you were right next to each other. And there was a fun one with a ball. You got a ball and you had to try and spin it around your bodies by holding the ball in between each other's bodies. And it was just a very interesting way to build this comfort and trust and safety with each other. And in about half an hour, you felt as close and as safe as you do with your best friends, family or partners even. It was. It was really quite incredible. And then we'd move to a more rehearsal bit of the scene, and then Mikko would come in and we'd kind of workshop and build what it will look like, where our hands will be here, what this might do. And you don't even bring in kissing until much later. Even on the. On the day when you're shooting, it's all placeholders. And this goes here and this goes there. And really kind of sculpting it into the final piece before it. Before it becomes alive.

Interviewer / Host (22:43)

That idea of scaffolding that you're describing step by step makes total sense. It's so interesting to hear that play was such a big part of it, because that is what acting is. At the end of the day, it is taking on a role in playing. But that's very interesting. I'm looking at the clock, got a little bit of time left. But I want to talk about the reception of the film. It takes such a, I guess, honest, authentic look, Mikko, at this part of society that maybe doesn't always get that chance. Have sex workers seen the film? How have they responded to it?

Mikko Makala (23:12)

Some of the most, I think, you know, rewarding. Rewarding experiences have been after screenings when, you know, some people have come up to me who maybe didn't want to, you know, say this in public or ask a question after the screening, but. But help, you know, tell me kind of in confidence that they are a sex worker or they know sex workers. And they felt that this depiction was really, you know, authentic. Spoke to them. They felt seen. And those are the moments when I really feel like, you know, we made something authentic.

Interviewer / Host (23:43)

Is any of that feedback on Ruri's performance, specifically of capturing that authenticity and that tenderness?

Mikko Makala (23:51)

I think, you know, the performance is, you know, is so massively kind of tied with the story, I suppose it's sort of impossible to distinguish, you know, in a sense, what's what. But, you know, Ruri's, you know, so incredibly captured the Max Sebastian that I wrote on the page that I believe that's, you know, got a lot to do with it.

Interviewer / Host (24:15)

Yeah. And was there anything about Ruri's performance that really brought out an element of Max, of Sebastian, that you didn't maybe see as clearly before you started the project?

Mikko Makala (24:27)

I think it. I'd lived with the story and, you know, writing it for such a long time that I had quite a specific idea, in a sense, of what the performance would look like and what I would want it to look like? My fear before finding Vroura was more that maybe, what if I don't find the right actor? What if I don't find someone who can bring out all of these nuances, who can bring out all of these different energies. But. But kudos to Ruri. He was able to really bring Mike Sebastian alive in the way that I had kind of always imagined him.

Interviewer / Host (25:05)

Wonderful. And, you know, we've got a few seconds left here. Do you have a message to the Sebastians of the world?

Mikko Makala (25:13)

You know, just feel empowered in what you're doing and, you know, do not feel ashamed about it and just, you know, this film is very much about self acceptance ultimately as well. So, yeah, that would be the message.

Interviewer / Host (25:31)

Sebastian is being screened at the IFC center tomorrow. We've been talking to writer and director Miko Makola and actor Ruri Malika. Thank you both so much for joining us and for your work.

Mikko Makala (25:42)

Thank you.

Ruri Malika (25:43)

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure.

Casual Conversationalist (25:47)

I'mma put you on, nephew.

Ruri Malika (25:48)

All right. Don't.

McDonald's Employee / Narrator (25:49)

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

Casual Conversationalist (25:52)

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years now.

Ruri Malika (25:54)

It's.

Casual Conversationalist (25:55)

We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

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