A Writer's Double Life Blurs Boundaries In 'Sebastian'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – “A Writer's Double Life Blurs Boundaries In 'Sebastian'”

Date: August 2, 2024
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart), WNYC
Guests: Mikko Makala (Director & Writer), Ruri Malika (Actor, plays Max)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the making and meaning of the new film "Sebastian," which follows Max, a young man balancing his day job as a writer and his clandestine life as a sex worker in London. The discussion centers on the complexities of sex work, creative inspiration from lived experience, generational perspectives in queer culture, and the challenges of telling authentic and nuanced stories in cinema. Director Mikko Makala and lead actor Ruri Malika join host Kusha Navadar for an in-depth conversation about their intentions, process, and the film’s reception—particularly within the sex worker community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Intentions Behind "Sebastian"

• Motivations for Telling This Story

  • Mikko Makala describes moving to London and discovering, through the gay scene, how sex work had become a more common and accepted option, especially with the proliferation of apps and websites:

    “With the aid of technology... the threshold for going into sex work had really lowered. It was really becoming a more and more kind of everyday option in London’s gig economy.”
    (02:23, Makala)

  • Makala wanted to challenge the narrative that sex work is only a last resort:

    “I really wanted to... approach sex work in a sex positive way and in a way where sex work in itself wasn’t questioned as a valid choice.”
    (02:23, Makala)

• Portrayal of Sex Work

  • Both guests discuss the importance of avoiding judgmental or glamorized depictions, building instead a world that feels authentic and non-exploitative.

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2. Max/Sebastian: The Character & Performance

• The Script’s Appeal

  • Ruri Malika shares his excitement about the opportunity and praises the script’s depth:

    “The story just gripped me... such beautiful detail and nuance and post come out sexuality. It was just really quite special.”
    (04:44, Malika)

• Crafting a Three-Dimensional Character

  • Malika expresses that Max is beautifully flawed, balancing good and bad:

    “We are all beautifully flawed and there’s so much good and bad in all of us.”
    (05:13, Malika)

Insecurity and Self-Doubt

• Clip from the Film: Writerly Insecurity

  • Max is shown doubting his own story’s merit, even as friends celebrate his publication:

    “I just don’t think it stands out. It’s so unpolished.”
    (05:57, Malika as Max)
    “Max, not everything needs to be some grand statement... This comes from the heart, and that’s why it works. I really don’t think this could have been written by someone who hadn’t lived it.”
    (06:30, Supporting Character)

• Pressure to Succeed

  • Ruri notes Max’s comparison to prodigies like Zadie Smith and Bret Easton Ellis, and the discouragement so common among young creatives:

    “I think Max continuously compares himself to these people who had success so young... it’s so easy to feel downtrodden and like you’re behind.”
    (07:00, Malika)

• Reflections as an Actor

  • Ruri, coming from a background in computer science and recent immersion in queer literature, found personal growth through researching and embodying Max.

    “I am totally a bookworm... I was introduced to so much more when I began prepping for the script... That excitement transferred to the screen.”
    (08:57, Malika)

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3. Authenticity in Storytelling

• Research & Preparation

  • For sex work scenes, Malika viewed real interviews and documentaries, aiming to grasp the lived experience, including the positive aspects less often shown:

    “I watched a lot of interviews online just to kind of understand from current sex workers’ perspectives the experience of getting over the shame... and the joy in the line of work that is not talked about as frequently.”
    (10:54, Malika)

• Script as Foundation

  • The emotional arc was thoroughly mapped with Makala, starting from collaborative script discussions and continuing through rehearsals.

Creating Nuance in Client Portrayals

• Humanizing "the Client": Queer Eldership

  • Makala on portraying older gay men not as stereotypes but as complex individuals:

    “I really wanted to approach just the depiction of escorts’ clients with a kind of humanity we don’t often see... Everyone has a slightly different reason [for hiring a sex worker].”
    (14:19, Makala)

  • Importance of bridging queer generational gaps:

    “Gay culture can be terribly, terribly ageist... it was so important... to counter some of those preconceptions.”
    (14:19, Makala)

  • Ruri echoes the value of intergenerational connection:

    “It did solidify the importance of these connections between generations.”
    (16:01, Malika)

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4. Themes of Shame & Self-Acceptance

• Editor-Writer Dynamics
  • The film explores Max’s complex feelings about writing from experience—specifically, shame and "shame about shame":

    “Where is that shame coming from for Max? Is it coming from Sebastian, Max’s alter ego, or from Max himself?”
    (17:51, Host)

    • Malika: “I think it’s probably a combination... maybe there’s a feeling of shame that Max feels pursuing something that is so taboo... and I do feel like perhaps the shame sneaks in as Sebastian when Max does begin to enjoy and find different motivations... quite a confronting and conflicting experience.”
      (18:11, Malika)

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5. Filming Intimacy: Safety, Trust, and Process

• Role of Intimacy Coordinator

  • Makala describes the essential role of intimacy coordinator Rufai Ajala in choreographing the nuanced and varied sex scenes:

    “We went through all of the scenes, discussing what they should feel like, what the atmosphere should be... so that they could then also take that information into the choreography... having those discussions about boundaries, comfort zones...”
    (19:14, Makala)

• Actor’s Perspective

  • Ruri details the physical and psychological preparation for intimate scenes:

    “We would just play games that get you more and more comfortable... It was all about building these boundaries and respect... In about half an hour, you felt as close and as safe as you do with your best friends, family, or partners even... You don’t even bring in kissing until much later.”
    (21:15, Malika)

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6. Reception & Real-World Impact

• Feedback from Sex Worker Community

  • Makala shares heartfelt responses from real sex workers who felt authentically represented:

    “Some of the most rewarding experiences have been... after screenings when some people have come up to me... they felt that this depiction was really authentic. Spoke to them. They felt seen. And those are the moments when I really feel like... we made something authentic.”
    (23:12, Makala)

• On Collaboration

  • Makala praises Ruri’s embodiment of Max/Sebastian:

    “Ruri... so incredibly captured the Max Sebastian that I wrote on the page that I believe that’s got a lot to do with it.”
    (23:51, Makala)

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7. Messages & Final Thoughts

• On Empowerment and Self-Acceptance
  • Makala closes with a message for those living double lives or struggling with shame:

    “Just feel empowered in what you’re doing and... do not feel ashamed about it... this film is very much about self-acceptance ultimately as well. So yeah, that would be the message.”
    (25:13, Makala)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Mikko Makala, on sex work as choice:

  “I really wanted to... approach sex work in a sex positive way and in a way where sex work in itself wasn’t questioned as a valid choice.” (02:23)

• Ruri Malika, on playing Max:

  “It was just amazing to have a story that is so about a character that is so three dimensional and real.” (05:13)

• On intimate filmmaking:

  “We would just play effectively games that get you more and more comfortable... it was all about building these boundaries and respect.” (21:15, Malika)

• On reception from sex workers:

  “Some people have come up to me... and they felt that this depiction was really, you know, authentic. Spoke to them. They felt seen.” (23:12, Makala)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• 02:23 — Makala on the normalization of sex work
• 04:44 — Malika on first encountering the script
• 05:57 — Film clip: Max doubts his work
• 07:00 — Malika on young creatives feeling behind
• 08:57 — Malika on growing as a reader & actor
• 10:54 — Malika on researching sex work
• 14:19 — Makala on humanizing clients and queer elders
• 17:51 — Host asks about shame in Max’s writing
• 19:14 — Makala on intimacy coordination
• 21:15 — Malika on the process of building actor trust
• 23:12 — Makala on affirmation from sex workers
• 25:13 — Makala’s message of empowerment

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Summary

This episode of “All Of It” offers a sensitive, candid, and insightful look at the film “Sebastian”—delving into its origins, its boundary-blurring themes of sex, art, and identity, and the collaborative process of filmmaking. It offers valuable perspectives for those interested in nuanced portrayals of sex work, intergenerational queer stories, and the real-life struggles (and growth) behind creative pursuits. Whether a film lover, creative, or someone curious about modern queer culture, this episode serves as both companion and curator, much like the show itself.

Transcript

[Casual Conversationalist]

I' ma put you on, nephew.

[Ruri Malika]

All right, unc.

[McDonald's Employee / Narrator]

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

[Casual Conversationalist]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back. Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Interviewer / Host]

This is all of it. I'm Kusha Navadar, in for Alison Stewart. Sebastian is a new film that tells the story of one aspiring novelist with a big dream to get his book published and the steps he takes to achieve it. Max is 25, working at a magazine. He's good at his job, but wants more. Spurred by the pressure to succeed, he looks for inspiration in his moonlighting job as a sex worker at night. His name is Sebastian and he uses an escort court app to meet with anonymous men. Some encounters with his clients leave Max confused, empty, ashamed. But these are also the encounters that become sources for his new novel. He begins writing. More and more editors start noticing his talent and and not knowing the real source of the stories encourage Max to keep going. But Max's double life begins to catch up with him, impacting his own self esteem, his relationships with his friends, jeopardizing his career, and a lot more. Viewer from Indiewire wrote that the film is a provocative, explicit, and ultimately tender film. It's called Sebastian. It's out at the IFC center tomorrow. And with us now is director and writer of the film, Mikko Makala. Hi, Miko, nice to see you.

[Mikko Makala]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Interviewer / Host]

Of course. And over Zoom right now we also have Ruri Malika who plays Max. Ruri, hi. Welcome to the show.

[Ruri Malika]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me here.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's so wonderful to have both of you. Amico, I'd love to start with you. Stories about sex work can be pretty tricky to cover, Right. And this film told us a nuanced story about the industry and the people who are a part of it. What narratives did you hear about sex work in your own life? How did it approach your sense of this story?

[Mikko Makala]

So the kind of genesis of the story started from. I moved to London after university, and just from my kind of gradual encounter with the London gay scene, it dawned on me just how many young gay men my peers were involved in in sex work of some kind. And it seemed that with the aid of technology apps and websites, the threshold for going into sex work had really lowered. And it was really becoming a more and more kind of everyday option in London's gig economy. And so I really wanted to look at a sex worker character, like some of the people I knew from the scene in London for whom doing sex work was more out of choice than for lack of them and kind of craft a portrait of a character and approach sex work in a sex positive way and in a way where sex work in itself wasn't questioned as a valid choice because so often it's been portrayed as a last resort or something done as a consequence of trauma. And I really wanted to kind of reverse that idea.

[Interviewer / Host]

Can you talk about that a little bit more from that exposure that you had in London? What was it about the industry on top of the things that you mentioned that you really wanted to reveal or at least point to in this film?

[Mikko Makala]

I think kind of looking, you know, looking at what sex work has become through, you know, through websites and apps and you know, how easy for some people, you know, now is to kind of venture into it. It's so different from, from kind of old fashioned ideas of, you know, kind of being on the side of the road or, you know, in, in a brothel or something like that. And, and so I really wanted to look at, look at it as, as something more commonplace like that.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. A choice you can choose. Yeah. Ruri, you've been in films that feature queer sexuality. Like I'm thinking of your 2022 short film too rough. Go back to when you first read the script of Sebastian Forest. How did it feel that you wanted to be a part of?

[Ruri Malika]

Oh, I mean it was incredible. Like one. I'd never been really even considered as a feature leading person before, so to even have that opportunity was really exciting. But the story just gripped me. It was a full feature length script of such beautiful detail and nuance and post come out sexuality. It was just really quite special. I was really excited with prospect of being a part of it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Was it the story? Was it the character of Max as well? One more than the other?

[Ruri Malika]

Both, both combined. I mean it was just amazing to have a story that is so about a character that is so three dimensional and real. You know, we are all beautifully flawed and there's so much good and bad in all of us. And it was really exciting to explore a character that has such three dimension of both of those elements throughout the film.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, let's get into that character a little bit. Max works in a magazine, he's a talent writer. We seem as a bit shy and insecure and like you were saying, Ruri, really three dimensional in one scene. Max goes to a bookstore to see his short story. Be published. And his friends are excited for him, but Max isn't convinced. Let's listen to a clip of that from the movie.

[Ruri Malika]

I just don't think it stands out. It's so unpolished. What?

[McDonald's Employee / Narrator]

No, it's exactly that rawness that makes it work so well. I mean, the way you capture the intimacy between the lovers and, you know, then how it suddenly turns to distance.

[Mikko Makala]

Yeah.

[McDonald's Employee / Narrator]

Collapsing those two time frames together like that in one moment is fantastic.

[Ruri Malika]

I mean, yeah, it's atmospheric, sure, but is it really saying anything?

[McDonald's Employee / Narrator]

Max, not everything needs to be some grand statement. You know, if it's well observed, if it's truthful. This comes from the heart, and that's why it works. I really don't think this could have been written by someone who hadn't lived it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Ruhry, why do you think Max feels so insecure about his work?

[Ruri Malika]

I think it's tricky. I think he makes lots of comparisons to, you know, Zadie Smith and Brett Easton Ellis, who have notoriously published novels at such young ages. And I wonder if Max continuously compares himself to these people who had success so young, you know, And I think in an industry where so many people pop off so often, I think it's so easy to feel downtrodden and like you're behind, even if you really are working your best and doing really good work.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's such a. I'm sure many writers out there can relate to that. We have a writer sitting right across the table from us right now. You listen to Miko, you listen to Ruri saying what sounds so authentic. Does that resonate for you yourself, as a writer?

[Mikko Makala]

I mean, Max certainly sets the bar very high for himself. And I think at that age, I mean, you know, of course, there's a lot of that. That kind of desire to succeed, and that ambition is. Is something that, you know, probably comes from. From my own ideas about what I feel like, you know, as a filmmaker, where I felt like I needed to be at 25 or something like that, when. When, you know, really what you, as an artist, what, you kind of grow to realize that you need a lot of patience to. To kind of keep making progress. But absolutely there, you know, the pressure to succeed. Especially now, everyone on social media as well, comparing ourselves to everyone else's success. It's such a massive kind of pressure.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. And I think that pressure exists in a lot of different ways. We're talking about the humanities right now. Ruri, some research we did found out you have a bachelor's in computer science. Is that Right?

[Ruri Malika]

Yes, that is correct.

[Interviewer / Host]

Which is wonderful. You're playing a character here who is definitely in the humanities. The way you captured his love for writing and literature in your performance is so compelling. Are you a bookworm yourself?

[Ruri Malika]

I am totally a bookworm, yeah. I think I never used to be. I think it was during about COVID I started to get into reading and then just became absolutely obsessed. Unfortunately, I was already into a lot of the kind of queer literature that Max was reading, but I was introduced to so much more when I began prepping for the script. And through Mikko, so many different authors and novels that I really got to dive into. And it was exciting. And it's actually really nice to hear that that excitement transferred to the screen as well.

[Interviewer / Host]

So for you, encapsulating that, that excitement came quite naturally. Was it. Were there specific works that really got that you were thinking of, that you were channeling when you were thinking of Max's love? Tell us how you approach that, that love for literature that came across the screen?

[Ruri Malika]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, very early on I asked Mikko what he was reading when he was writing the script, and that was things like City of Night by John Ritchie or Savage Nights by Cyril Collard. You know, all these queer literatures that are kind of autobiographic in a way, and Genee and things like that. So it was really these kind of things I got really into and then obviously got very into Bret Eastern Ellis. I think prior to the film, I'd only read American Psycho. And then I kind of dived in with the Shards and Less Than Zero. And that was probably one of the most interesting in terms of it related so closely to the characters autofiction and masking that, like, what is truth in this and what is fictionalized and fantasized.

[Interviewer / Host]

That element of what's truth in this, I think is so important, especially not just talking about Max's love for literature, but also, you know, very, very obviously getting into the mind yourself as an actor of somebody who does sex work. Can you talk a little bit about your process for finding the truth in there? Did you do interviews or speak to anyone that helped wrote the screenplay? What was your approach there?

[Ruri Malika]

Yeah, totally. I mean, for me, I watched a lot of interviews online just to kind of understand from current sex workers perspectives the experience of getting over the shame about it and coming out, family and the joy in the line of work that is not talked about as frequently. But a lot of the journey and the emotional aspect came just directly from the script and from talking to Mikko. And things, I think, because Max's experience with sex work begins from the first page, you almost got to learn and grow an experience with him through the experiences with the clients. So it was actually a very organic path of finding the emotion.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. So the work was what was already in on the page. Mikko, for you, what conversations did you have with Ruri to help support him doing this role to ensure that the humanity of these individuals that you wrote about really came through?

[Mikko Makala]

I think it was about, well, you know, kind of first of all, I suppose, for every collaborator on the project, really kind of ensuring that everyone was on the same page about making a film that is sex positive and that, you know, looks at sex work from an empowering point of view that's non judgmental, frank, authentic, but which also means that it's also not attempted to glamorize anything either, either, whilst still, you know, acknowledging risks associated with sex work as well. So I think kind of just getting that, that notion across from the beginning, but then it was very much about building the character and, you know, kind of together ensuring that we were both on the same page about, about the script and the contents and meanings of the scenes. And so throughout pre production and whilst we were waiting for the finance for the film, we met up often to go through the script in really minute detail, go through the scenes, really kind of make sure that we both were in agreement about the emotions and motivations everywhere and just make sure that that character arc was really mapped out by the time we got on set.

[Interviewer / Host]

We have to take a quick break. We're talking about the movie Sebastian. When we come back, we're going to hear some more clips and talk a little bit more about that character arc that you're referring to. Stay with us. This is all of it on wnyc. We're talking about the film Sebastian. It's with the Miko Makola and the protagonist, the actor Ruri Molica. Sorry. The movie is about a young man named Max who is trying to make a career as a novelist, but moonlights as a sex worker in London. And before the break, we talked a lot about Max's journey. The film is of course centered around that, but Miko, what I found especially interesting in this movie was that we also get a portrait of some of the men he meets, and a lot of them are older gay men. And stories of queer elders are kind of rarely told in cinema. What did you want to bring out from Max's conversations with them?

[Mikko Makala]

I really wanted to approach just the depiction of over Escorts clients with a kind of humanity that we don't often see. I think so often clients might be depicted in a very one dimensional way or as antagonists or, or as kind of pathetic. And I really wanted to avoid that and really try to look at each person, think about the reasons for why they have hired a sex worker. Everyone has a slightly different reason and really think about those reasons from a human point of view. And certainly, as we know, gay culture can be terribly, terribly ageist. So I think there was also a reason why it was so important, especially then, you know, with the character of Nicholas who comes into the film about halfway through to really kind of counter some of those maybe preconceptions and also, you know, surprise Max in a way through his encounter with this older queer gentleman and kind of understand, you know, gain a better understanding of what we can find through those surprise encounters as well.

[Interviewer / Host]

Surprise encounters and learning, I think is so key. And Ruri, I'm wondering, for you, entering this project, reading and embodying Max's experiences, did you learn about queer eldership in any way? Anything that maybe not surprised, but anything that came out for you while you were working on this project?

[Ruri Malika]

Yeah, I guess so. I think, I think queer eldership has been something that I've definitely noticed, especially when I moved to London. I think it's, it's really important to, to meet people who are older and queer as well and pass on that history and even learn things that you didn't know or even just someone who's a few years older than you that came out before you did. And like just that discussion is really important. And I think through the film as well, it did solidify the importance of these connections between generations.

[Interviewer / Host]

You know, as Max delves deeper into this world of sex work, his writing seems to flow easier. He begins writing about his encounters scene by scene. And we see him typing pages and pages of his novel and sending drafts to his editor. But he encounters some problems. Let's listen to a clip where he gets feedback from the editor.

[McDonald's Employee / Narrator]

So I read your new pages. I think the character is really intriguing and your prose as vivid as ever. But I just wonder if it gets a little repetitive, this series of the same kinds of encounters with generally always older men. I'm just wondering what it might look like to see him in a slightly different situation, only to give it a bit more variety and maybe to explore how he might react in new context. Also, I was just a little thrown by the bit about Sebastian. Intermittent feelings of shame and the. How did you put it shame about shame, which definitely makes sense, but it's just that I thought you said you were struck by how little shame your interviews felt. I'll send you my new chapters tonight. Anxious to get your thoughts before this mission.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's from the film Sebastian and Ruri. We hear that comment regarding shame and shame about shame. Where is that shame coming from for Max? Is that shame coming from Sebastian, Max's kind of alter ego as a moonlight sex worker, or from Max himself? Or some combination? What do you think?

[Ruri Malika]

I think it's probably a combination. You know, I think it's tied up in everything. I think maybe there's a feeling of shame that Max feels pursuing something that is so taboo in his line of work. And perhaps maybe that's fueled by the fear of judgment from his peers. And I do feel like perhaps the shame sneaks in as Sebastian when Max does begin to enjoy and find different motivations throughout these experiences. I mean, learning more about yourself through these things is probably quite a confronting and conflicting experience. And I can understand if that would bring feelings of shame.

[Mikko Makala]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

Mikko, Talking about the movie in the production sense, there are a number of truly intimate scenes, both emotionally and physically watching it. The idea of an intimacy coordinator immediately came to mind for me. How do you use an intimacy coordinator effectively? How did you think through the intimate scenes that you were filming? What did you want to show through them? How did you approach it?

[Mikko Makala]

Yeah, so we worked with a wonderful intimacy coordinator called Rufai Ajala, and they were very essential to the process. Of course, the scenes were already quite detailed in the script because they do so much character work and story work. So it was never, you know, Max and Nicholas have sex or anything like that in the script, but they were quite detailed. But so we then went through with the intimacy coordinator, went through all of the scenes, kind of discussing also kind of what they should feel like, what the atmosphere should be like, what the mood is like here and, you know, what that scene is saying, so that they could then also take that information into kind of thinking about. Thinking about the choreography further. And you know what? As a director, I found the intimacy coordinator really essential and, you know, so helpful in the process was the work then that they did with the actors in, you know, having those discussions about boundaries, having discussions about. And, you know, Ruri will be able to talk about this further as well, and, you know, about their comfort zones and things like that. And, you know, during the shoot, then the way in which they were able to, you know, help me in kind of building that trust amongst the actors, because there are a number of sex scenes, many of them, you know, were with a co star who was only on set for one or two days. So it was really, really helpful to have with the task of building that trust amongst them quickly.

[Interviewer / Host]

And, Ruri, I'm wondering for you. You hear Miko saying that. I'd love to hear what the team did to support you through that work. Maybe what Miko did, as well as the intimacy coordinator, to create the setting that would help you act as effectively as possible.

[Ruri Malika]

I mean, it's actually such an interesting process. I'd never really worked with an intelligence intimacy coordinator before. I'd not done too many intimate scenes before. But really we would begin in a room with the intimacy coordinator and the other actor, and we would just play effectively games that get you more and more comfortable. And you'd put your hand on each other's bodies and see where is safe. And like a red, green, blue kind of scale. And that was something that you could change each day. It might get to shooting and you don't feel comfortable being touched on your arm, and that's okay. And it was all about building these boundaries and respect. I mean, one of the games was literally just, can I take a step closer to you? Yes. And you take a step closer until you were right next to each other. And there was a fun one with a ball. You got a ball and you had to try and spin it around your bodies by holding the ball in between each other's bodies. And it was just a very interesting way to build this comfort and trust and safety with each other. And in about half an hour, you felt as close and as safe as you do with your best friends, family or partners even. It was. It was really quite incredible. And then we'd move to a more rehearsal bit of the scene, and then Mikko would come in and we'd kind of workshop and build what it will look like, where our hands will be here, what this might do. And you don't even bring in kissing until much later. Even on the. On the day when you're shooting, it's all placeholders. And this goes here and this goes there. And really kind of sculpting it into the final piece before it. Before it becomes alive.

[Interviewer / Host]

That idea of scaffolding that you're describing step by step makes total sense. It's so interesting to hear that play was such a big part of it, because that is what acting is. At the end of the day, it is taking on a role in playing. But that's very interesting. I'm looking at the clock, got a little bit of time left. But I want to talk about the reception of the film. It takes such a, I guess, honest, authentic look, Mikko, at this part of society that maybe doesn't always get that chance. Have sex workers seen the film? How have they responded to it?

[Mikko Makala]

Some of the most, I think, you know, rewarding. Rewarding experiences have been after screenings when, you know, some people have come up to me who maybe didn't want to, you know, say this in public or ask a question after the screening, but. But help, you know, tell me kind of in confidence that they are a sex worker or they know sex workers. And they felt that this depiction was really, you know, authentic. Spoke to them. They felt seen. And those are the moments when I really feel like, you know, we made something authentic.

[Interviewer / Host]

Is any of that feedback on Ruri's performance, specifically of capturing that authenticity and that tenderness?

[Mikko Makala]

I think, you know, the performance is, you know, is so massively kind of tied with the story, I suppose it's sort of impossible to distinguish, you know, in a sense, what's what. But, you know, Ruri's, you know, so incredibly captured the Max Sebastian that I wrote on the page that I believe that's, you know, got a lot to do with it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. And was there anything about Ruri's performance that really brought out an element of Max, of Sebastian, that you didn't maybe see as clearly before you started the project?

[Mikko Makala]

I think it. I'd lived with the story and, you know, writing it for such a long time that I had quite a specific idea, in a sense, of what the performance would look like and what I would want it to look like? My fear before finding Vroura was more that maybe, what if I don't find the right actor? What if I don't find someone who can bring out all of these nuances, who can bring out all of these different energies. But. But kudos to Ruri. He was able to really bring Mike Sebastian alive in the way that I had kind of always imagined him.

[Interviewer / Host]

Wonderful. And, you know, we've got a few seconds left here. Do you have a message to the Sebastians of the world?

[Mikko Makala]

You know, just feel empowered in what you're doing and, you know, do not feel ashamed about it and just, you know, this film is very much about self acceptance ultimately as well. So, yeah, that would be the message.

[Interviewer / Host]

Sebastian is being screened at the IFC center tomorrow. We've been talking to writer and director Miko Makola and actor Ruri Malika. Thank you both so much for joining us and for your work.

[Mikko Makala]

Thank you.

[Ruri Malika]

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure.

[Casual Conversationalist]

I'mma put you on, nephew.

[Ruri Malika]

All right. Don't.

[McDonald's Employee / Narrator]

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

[Casual Conversationalist]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years now.

[Ruri Malika]

It's.

[Casual Conversationalist]

We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

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