A (2:34)

Who is that?

C (2:34)

Yeah, he's in his apartment.

A (2:36)

I think so.

C (2:36)

Yeah, yeah, that's his mannequin.

A (2:39)

It's his mannequin, yeah. Oh, okay. This was not a desk. As long as we're making fun.

C (2:47)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (2:48)

So, Dylan, can you Describe where you were when you first read the script.

C (2:55)

Yeah, I was at my home in Los Angeles at the time. I live here now. That was the. It's so funny. That's the first location question. I've gotten so far on where I was when I first read it, but that's where I first took it in. I think. I was outside. Nothing. Nothing like an outdoor read. And, I mean, I just was immediately so taken by it. It was such a complete script. It was such a wild ride. I felt like it was so beautifully written. I really felt like I understood the humor in the voice overall, but. But just, like, loved that and was really struck by the emotional through line, which for me is, like, such a combination that I enjoy in films. And anytime you get to be a part of something like that, it's so special. So. Yeah. And then I watched James's first film later that night that he directed and wrote and was in as well, and I thought it was fantastic.

A (3:52)

Did you read it in one sitting?

C (3:54)

Yeah, yeah, I devoured it. Yeah. Why? Yeah, yeah. Why do. Instead of, like, the. Go. The. Walk away.

A (4:01)

Walk away.

C (4:01)

Well, that's never a good sign.

A (4:03)

That's not a good sign, really.

C (4:04)

Right. I mean, I would think so. I couldn't put it down, you know, I absolutely devoured it, choked it down, and then couldn't wait to see who this guy was. And we still haven't met.

A (4:20)

James. What convinced you that Dylan was the right person for these two parts?

B (4:28)

Well, I used to work in casting as my day job, so I do feel like I have an affinity for seeing. Seeing the potential for actors maybe outside of their previous work, because I think sometimes Hollywood can. I don't think this is a surprise any. Listeners lack imagination. So I am familiar with the dramatic and comedic versatility in his filmography, but really, the thing that was sort of the. The yes was just meeting him and seeing what kind of person he was, because I knew this is a small independent film, and it was really our chemistry that would make or break this film. And I was looking for a partner in crime, and he turned to be. Turned out to be all that and more. And, yeah, it sort of, in retrospect, was extremely fortuitous how it all aligned.

A (5:23)

That's interesting that you. You worked in casting. What did you learn in casting that you were able to put to use in this film?

B (5:34)

Well, I think one lesson I learned is that I would see a lot of very talented actors come in who would just be wrong for a part. And so it was not necessarily A strong performance. And that really sort of concretized this idea that it doesn't matter how good an actor is or how maybe not good an actor you might think they are. If they are right for the part, they are right for the part. And I think that's. I think we have a tendency to think that talent is fixed, but I think it's. It's really a lot more subjective than that.

C (6:08)

That's so true. Mike White does this really well. Mike White casts really well. It is a science.

A (6:14)

It's going to be get an Emmy award this year or an Oscar. Right. Didn't they add a casting category? They should.

C (6:20)

Oh, oh, oh.

B (6:22)

They do have a casting Emmy. I don't. Yeah, I think that was this past weekend. I'm not sure who won.

A (6:28)

My guests are. Fingers crossed. Dylan o'. Brien.

C (6:31)

Yes.

A (6:32)

And writer and director James Sweeney.

C (6:34)

Yes.

A (6:34)

Yes. We are talking about their new movie, Twinless. What kind of research, Dylan, did you do into twins?

C (6:42)

That's really interesting. It might be unpopular to say not a ton. We, you know, I think the amazing thing about the. The themes in the story, I mean, we certainly had our own specific thoughts in terms of like twin grieving. And that obviously is such a unique type of loss. These groups, these support groups really do exist. It's. It was the initial impetus for the screenplay for James. But I think we definitely have our own specific feelings in terms of. We've been asked if we entered any of those support groups. That was not something that I felt comfortable doing or felt would be appropriate. But in terms of the themes in this film, they're.

B (7:26)

They're.

C (7:26)

They're entirely universal, you know, as well as also being obviously such a fundamentally unique experience and type of loss on this earth. I think that was what was such a intriguing part of the role to me and the film as a whole was that, you know, here was this kind of device used and honored truly, like this twin relationship in existence. Right. And loss by somebody who held a deep interest in that. And the universal themes of humanity that kind of came from that I thought were really beautiful and really resonated with me.

A (8:04)

James, you're a writer, director and actor in the film. Directors always, that's their job is to make decisions. That's a big part of direction. What is decision that you had to make that maybe the writer wouldn't have agreed with or the actor wouldn't agree with it, but the director said, we're doing it.

B (8:23)

Oh, interesting. Well, I actually am somebody who has a lot of decision anxiety, which is I think part of what I like about directing because it forces me to make decisions. I mean, to be blunt, there is a sex scene in the film, which as a director, I feel was very necessary as an actor. Made me a bit self conscious.

C (8:47)

That's true. Those are opposing forces, really.

B (8:49)

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.

C (8:51)

Tell Me More was a very naked, physically and vulnerable. Vulnerable thing to do, obviously. But yeah, he knew as he the filmmaker, he knew what he wanted and he knew that it certainly wasn't gratuitous and it was so right for the sequence and for the film and how he wanted to capture it. So it was what. It was interesting watching him to that line.

A (9:15)

James, how would you describe the friendship between these two men in your film?

B (9:22)

I think these are two people who both carry a lot of shame and regret and they are both searching for solace in their own individual ways. And while they are so different, I think they are very complimentary. I think we see them lift each other up at various points throughout the film. And while, you know, the film overall takes some twists and turns, I wouldn't necessarily point to this as a role model of male friendship. I do think the film explores friendship and masculinity in a very contemporary way that I think there's a lot to dissect there.

A (9:59)

How would you describe their friendship, Dylan?

C (10:04)

I mean, I think there's a lot to what James just spoke about, but in terms of the kind of effortless comfort that they provide each other, I think that's like a really like intangible thing to have in a friendship, in any type of relationship. Right. I love how kind of blanketed we are as an audience from the initial onset of their meeting. Right. And it just kind of flows and they just want to kind of be together, you know, the effortlessness in sort of just existing with one another, doing a mundane thing. I love the themes in that initial diner scene, you know, them sort of waxing poetics about like that, you know, being such a signifier of an intimate relationship to them, to each of them, you know, and something that they each miss and desire. Yeah, to me that was. That was something. I think that's like something that always struck me from the get go about the two of them.

A (11:08)

We're talking about the movie Twinless. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of It. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are actor Dylan o' Brien and writer, director and actor James Sweeney. We are talking about their new Movie Twinless, about two unlikely friends who meet in a support group for people who have lost a twin. It is in theater. James, this movie is a lot about loneliness. I do want to say it's funny, though. I do have to say that it is funny, but it is a lot about loneliness and what can happen when someone is really lonely. What do you think can be so dangerous about loneliness?

B (11:59)

Well, I think loneliness is a killer. I think the science supports that. I think what we see in this film is a place where loneliness leads to desperation. I think people who are so yearning for. For intimacy when. When that doesn't meet their expectations, it can. You know, love can make you do crazy things.

A (12:28)

Love make crazy things. Dylan, you spend most of the film as Roman. He's just a sweet guy. He's just a little dim, but he's really lovely. And you also play his brother Rocky, who is gay and is much more extroverted and speaks Japanese. And he's quite extraordinary. He also has a big mustache. We should say that.

C (12:49)

Thank you.

A (12:50)

What went into the process for creating this second character? Testosterone. And.

C (12:59)

For creating Rocky.

B (13:00)

Yeah, a lot.

C (13:01)

I mean, there was a lot of conversation with James, and we also had a great team of department heads on the ground who obviously all contribute their ideas. When we're having the hair, makeup discussions, we're having the wardrobe. I remember being a huge day for me, as it, like, tends to be depending on the character, especially when that's, like, a real huge part of their expression. Right. I think for Rocky, I really wanted that to be the case and. Yeah. Just sort of signifying his worldly experiences and his journey and evolution versus kind of what we see in his brother, which is a lot more stunted.

B (13:43)

Right.

C (13:43)

And I think contributes to the. The dimness that you reference. Right. And we've been trying to find the word to describe this type of thing, too. It's so hard.

A (13:51)

Yeah. Because it's not. You don't want to sound awful.

C (13:55)

Well, certainly. And I also don't think that he's, like, not a smart human being. Right. It's like. It's a representation of experience on this earth and, like, evolution as a human. Right. And I think so much of the insecurity that he feels and felt his whole life in the shadow of his brother was this. You know, Rocky had this fearlessness about him, and he. He took on the world. He took on who he was inside. He wanted to experience all of it, you know, and some people are, I think, quicker to do that than others, you know, And I Think. I think the sort of infectious popularity that Roman would always perceive from Rocky came from something that he very much so admired in him himself. You know what I mean?

A (14:48)

James, what were you looking to draw out of Dylan in his performance as Rocky?

C (14:56)

I mean, with the marionette strings?

B (15:00)

I. I don't want to take too much credit because I think Dylan resonated so deeply with. With Rocky and Roman. I mean, I think in terms of, you know, having. Asking a straight actor to. To play a queer character, the best thing I could do for. For Dylan was just give him permission and let him know that I trusted him and that he was in safe hands and that we were in this together. I think we talked a lot about how masculinity and performative femininity exists on a spectrum and how that can shape, depending on, I guess, the circumstances that you're in, who you behave as in public. You might code switch if you are in private settings. And I think that played into the nuances of the character.

A (15:48)

It sounded like Dylan that you guys just did a lot of talking. And I mean, in a good way.

C (15:53)

Yes, we talk a lot, and we do. And like, in an absolutely great way. I mean, communication is so paramount in this type of partnership of collaboration. And it lent itself to our production, especially it being four years of, like, occasional talking before we even got going. And then when we got on the ground. Yeah, all of these conversations were so informative, you know, for me, even though I had these guys percolating and swimming around in my brain for so long, which was an added benefit at that point. But James and I can talk for hours. And that is, you know, you learn a lot. I think we learn a lot from each other. And I think we love to talk about the world and our feelings about things. And it really helps. I mean, the thing he said about permission is the greatest gift that you can receive from your filmmaker, you know, and there's so many different shapes and sizes of sort of how people approach the directing position. A lot of people can be very handsy in your performance and sort of like constantly, almost out of insecurity, feeling like they gotta give you a note every take or else what are they doing? They gotta look like they're doing something. You know what I mean? And there's just, so. There's so much to be said for someone who has the confidence to, like, know what they want, be so precise in terms of his filmic execution, which I really appreciate, because I know within the confines of what the performance is being captured, that goes A long way for me. And then for the trust and permission and not always, you know, sometimes leaving me alone take after take, which is, you know, nothing breeds confidence more than.

A (17:36)

That it took four years for this to come to fruition. Yeah, yeah. James.

B (17:42)

Well, since I met Dylan, I. Since I was drafted 2015.

A (17:47)

What. What was better about the film that it took four years to make?

C (17:52)

That's a wonderful question.

A (17:54)

What do you think?

B (17:56)

I mean, you know, hindsight's 20 20. I think the, you know, just our own friendship, I think parlayed into the chemistry between the characters that, that you see on screen. I think just letting the, the themes and the script marinate.

C (18:15)

I.

B (18:15)

There was just a refinement process. Writing is rew. I don't know, it kind of. It felt like all the things that went wrong turned out to be happy accidents and that is sort of the miracle of filmmaking in and of itself. I have to aside for a second. I got excited when I heard your previous guest Wyclef John talk about Tasha Smith directing his next music video because she is in our film. She's also an identical twin herself. And yeah, all the actors in our support group were twins, including the background talent. And that was like something that maybe wasn't an initial idea when I wrote the screenplay, but was something that sort of came to the foreground in the years of what can we do to make this feel authentic? What can we do to. Because I think for me the biggest thing I've taken away from this film is that process is everything. And we had a really. As hard as it was, we had a really lovely career creative process.

A (19:20)

Without giving too much away. We've been doing a good job of no spoilers.

C (19:25)

Yeah.

A (19:25)

By the way, how did you decide when to reveal certain information about the main characters?

C (19:34)

James, Nicely done.

A (19:37)

In terms of the.

B (19:38)

That was a discreet question. Yes. So the very first draft of the script was not told with a perspective shift. I will say that was a major revision that happened once I met my producer, David Permit, which was motivated by me partially wanting to balance out the film because it is such a two hander. I think it's sort of. It's a bit like a Jenga puzzle. It's trying to deliver these plants and payoffs, which was also, to be frank, the, the maddening thing once we got to the edit, because it was so precisely constructed that to ace the film up and excise, we had to excise 50 minutes of footage to get to our eventual runtime, which is a lot, to be honest. And the Trickiest part about that was if you. Because everything is connected, an intentional if, when you lose something on the front end, it's has a connective tissue to something later. So it's a bit of a snowball effect. So we had to be very careful with what information we were introducing and when and trying to keep the audience in suspense while also keeping them surprised. So sort of that classic Hitchcock conundrum. And we tried to have a little bit of, excuse me, a best of both worlds.

A (21:06)

Dylan, have you heard from twins who have seen this movie and what have they been sharing with you.

C (21:14)

Outside of screenings? Not much, but we've definitely had occasional pairs of twins at our screenings. We had several show up to the premiere, which was really cool. It's been mostly feedback that's been really positive. And in terms of, I guess, you know, my capturing of like the twin experience, I have gotten. I don't know if they're just being nice, but so far it's been good in terms of, you know, at least them watching this, knowing that I'm not one myself and being able to take in the story and live in the world and not be bumped or taken out of it by my performance, you know, I mean, that's all I can ask for, to bring that type of humanity and authenticity so as not to distract them from the film.

A (22:05)

The name of the movie is Twinless. It's in theaters now. Really, really a fine movie. It's really good, it's funny, it's sad, it's weird. I recommend it. I've been speaking with actor Dylan o' Brien and writer, director and actor James Sweeney. Thank you for giving us time today. We really appreciate it.

C (22:26)

You rock. Thank you so much.

B (22:27)

Thank you so much.

A (22:28)

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C (22:41)

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