Actor Jude Law and Director Justin Kurzel Talk 'The Order'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Episode Featuring Jude Law and Justin Kurzel on "The Order"

Release Date: December 3, 2024

Introduction

In this riveting episode of All Of It hosted by Alison Stewart on WNYC, listeners are immersed in a deep conversation with acclaimed actor Jude Law and visionary director Justin Kurzel. The duo delves into their collaborative efforts on the new film "The Order," a gripping FBI thriller inspired by true events surrounding a white supremacist group in the Pacific Northwest during the early 1980s.

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Background on "The Order"

Alison Stewart sets the stage by recounting the harrowing true story of a group known as the Order, neo-Nazis and white supremacists who orchestrated a series of bank heists to fund an armed uprising against the U.S. government. This foundation serves as the bedrock for Kurzel’s critically acclaimed film, with Jude Law portraying the determined FBI agent Terry Husk tasked with dismantling the group.

Alison Stewart [00:17]:

"It was 40 years ago that a group of neo Nazis white supremacists were tied to a string of bank heists in the Pacific Northwest... The Order opens in theaters this week."

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Director Justin Kurzel’s Vision

Justin Kurzel shares his initial reaction to the nonfiction book "The Silent Brotherhood," which inspired the film. He expresses astonishment at the real-life existence of the Order and highlights the unnerving parallels between the group's activities in the 1980s and the events of January 6th, 2021.

Justin Kurzel [01:26]:

"I couldn’t believe that it had existed... as we were developing it... we started to see... some real parallels with January the sixth."

Kurzel emphasizes the meticulous research undertaken to authentically portray the Order’s heists and the charismatic yet dangerous leader, Bob Matthews, illustrating how the group exploited vulnerable communities.

Justin Kurzel [04:24]:

"The group of the Order and the specific details of how this group carried out some pretty extraordinary heists... it was all very much directly from the kind of research."

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Jude Law’s Portrayal of Terry Husk

Jude Law discusses his decision to take on the role of Terry Husk, highlighting the character’s complexity and relevance to contemporary social issues. He describes Husk as a weary, broken FBI agent grappling with a successful yet costly career, mirroring the internal conflicts many face in today's divided world.

Jude Law [02:40]:

"The themes were clearly unsettlingly relevant to today and the global social climate of divide and extremism... the character of Terry Husk reflects all of us."

Law elaborates on his approach to embodying Husk, including working with vocal coaches to perfect the character’s accent and mannerisms, ensuring an authentic portrayal that captures Husk’s vulnerabilities and resilience.

Jude Law [05:58]:

"I had to be very specific as to where he was from... the accent was absolutely a part of that... finding little details that perhaps sound eccentric and silly, but... helps in creating authenticity."

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Character Dynamics and Storytelling

The conversation transitions to the intricate dynamics between Husk and Bob Matthews. Justin Kurzel describes Matthews as a charismatic community leader who manipulates disenfranchised individuals, while Husk embodies the classic antihero struggling to maintain his footing against overwhelming odds.

Justin Kurzel [08:23]:

"What was so fascinating about Bob Matthews is he was sort of a community man... empowering people by listening... his ability to exploit a sense of vulnerability."

Jude Law praises Kurzel’s storytelling prowess, noting how the director humanizes both protagonists and antagonists, offering a nuanced exploration of their motivations.

Jude Law [08:04]:

"Justin sees people as humans and unpacks them accordingly... that makes his storytelling all the more effective."

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Filmmaking Challenges and Decisions

Justin Kurzel shares insights into the challenges of directing an independent genre film, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a consistent vision and guiding the audience through the film’s intense narrative.

Justin Kurzel [17:36]:

"What's the point of view and what's the feel of how you want to tell this story?... ensuring characters are playing to the vision you had in your mind."

Jude Law reflects on the benefits of participating in an independent film, citing the passionate collaboration and sense of camaraderie among the crew as key elements that elevate the filmmaking experience.

Jude Law [18:49]:

"There's a wonderful sense of camaraderie... a sense of fulfillment... passion and enthusiasm at the heartbeat of an experience like this."

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Relevance to Contemporary Issues

The hosts and guests discuss the film's timely exploration of extremism and community dynamics. Justin Kurzel emphasizes the film’s focus on why communities become vulnerable to dangerous ideologies, highlighting the role of communication and isolation in fostering extremism.

Justin Kurzel [24:13]:

"It's about communication and listening... when communities feel isolated, things become dangerous."

Jude Law adds that the film aims to unpack how individuals seek belonging and understanding, often falling prey to toxic influences when they feel unheard or marginalized.

Jude Law [22:57]:

"Justin has unpacked the communities we surround ourselves with... how toxic individuals can influence those seeking family and support."

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Clip from "The Order"

A pivotal scene from the film is featured, where FBI agent Terry Husk encounters Bob Matthews in the wilderness. This moment underscores the tension and mutual underestimation between the characters.

Alison Stewart [10:21]:

"Terry Husk doesn't know he's being cased, but he's aware something is amiss... Matthews underestimates Husk, thinking he's a broken old man."

Jude Law elaborates on the significance of this encounter, highlighting Husk’s intuition and Matthews’ misjudgment as critical turning points in the narrative.

Jude Law [11:26]:

"Matthews completely underestimates Husk... it's a key turning point where Matthews realizes there's something up."

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Final Thoughts and Film Release

As the episode concludes, Justin Kurzel and Jude Law reflect on the anticipation surrounding the film’s release and its expected impact on audiences. They express hope that "The Order" will spark meaningful conversations about extremism, community, and the human condition.

Alison Stewart [22:41]:

"In the last US election, there were conversations about DEI and standing up to hate. What do you hope this film contributes?"

Jude Law [22:57]:

"It's thrilling to watch... a very exciting, propulsive piece of filmmaking."

Justin Kurzel [24:05]:

"How communities seek answers in dangerous ideologies... the kernel is understanding why communities seek answers in shadows."

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Conclusion

This episode of All Of It offers an in-depth exploration of "The Order," blending real historical events with cinematic storytelling. Through the perspectives of Justin Kurzel and Jude Law, listeners gain a profound understanding of the film’s thematic depth, character complexities, and its poignant reflection on contemporary societal issues. As "The Order" hits theaters on December 6th, the conversation promises to resonate with audiences seeking both thrilling entertainment and thoughtful discourse.

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Notable Quotes

• Justin Kurzel [01:26]:

  "We started to obviously see with January the sixth, some real, you know, real parallels."

• Jude Law [02:40]:

  "The character of Terry Husk reflects all of us... sort of weary and broken."

• Justin Kurzel [08:23]:

  "What makes Bob Matthews so dangerous is his ability to exploit vulnerability."

• Jude Law [05:58]:

  "Finding little details... helps in creating authenticity."

• Justin Kurzel [24:13]:

  "When communities feel isolated, things become dangerous."

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About "All Of It"

All Of It by WNYC is a show dedicated to exploring culture and its consumers, engaging thinkers, doers, makers, and creators to discuss the what and why of their work. Hosted by Alison Stewart, the show fosters a diverse community reflecting the rich tapestry of New York City’s cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Justin Kurzel]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. It was 40 years ago that a group of neo Nazis white supremacists were tied to a string of bank heists in the Pacific Northwest, all to fund an armed uprising against the US Government. The group called the Order, believed in white replacement theory and violence as the answer to, quote, taking the nation back from ethnic and religious minorities. It's a true story that is the basis for the critically acclaimed new fictional film the Order. It was directed by my next guest, Justin Kurzel, and in the role of the gnarled FBI agent who sought to bring justice, Jude Law, our other guest. An early review states the film, quote, delivers a riveting and ominously prescient procedural with an authenticity that demands our full engagement. The Order opens in theaters this week. Justin, welcome to all of it.

[Justin Kurzel]

Hi. Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

And Jude, it's nice to meet you.

[Jude Law]

And you too. Good morning.

[Alison Stewart]

So just. Good day. Good day. Justin, the film is based on a nonfiction book called the Silent Brotherhood, which you received before January 6th. What did you think when you read it?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, I couldn't believe that it had. Had existed. And I mean, it was a. It was a story and a series of events that were, you know, sort of unreported in a way. So it was a real mystery to me. And the script was just fantastic. It was just this incredible kind of thriller that seemed almost unreal. And then as we were sort of developing it and, you know, sort of nurturing it into a film, we started, you know, to obviously see with January the sixth, some real, you know, real parallels. And most, most alarmingly, the. The way in which this, this book, the Turner Diaries, started to, you know, really come into. Come into fore and. And kind of reveal itself to have quite a long legacy from, you know, where our story is set, which is in the early 80s to now.

[Alison Stewart]

Jude, Zach Balin wrote the script. He's been on our show for King Richard. What were some of the. That you saw in the script that made you say yes to the role of FBI agent Terry Husk?

[Jude Law]

Well, the themes were clearly unsettlingly relevant to today and the global social climate of divide and extremism. But in truth, I think what I really saw was the potential for a complicated cat and mouse thriller. And what I saw specifically in the character of Terry Husk. And I was fortunate enough to work with, as you mentioned, lovely Zach as a writer and Justin as our director, a collaborative team that allowed us to really all embellish the character. But what I saw in Terry was the opportunity to sort of play someone who, in a way, reflects all of us. He's someone who's sitting on a very successful career that's cost him somewhat. He's sort of weary and broken, spiritually and physically. And I mention all of us because, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I certainly felt as I approached my middle age that, you know, the world was in pretty good shape and that the hard fight was behind us and, in fact, the big fights in front of us. And I think that's very much where Terry finds himself. He heads off to Idaho with the idea of a kind of early retirement, almost to maybe take it easy. But his nature, and indeed, his, you could say, bad luck is such that he lands in a place where, in fact, you know, he's got this enormous case, in fact, an army to sort of bring down Justin.

[Alison Stewart]

Some of the characters are based on real people. They're historical documents and photographs. How did the research play into your work as a director?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, very much. I think the group of the Order and the specific details of how this group carried out some pretty extraordinary heists and robberies, and then how they used that money to kind of fund one of the first domestic terrorist groups in America and really created a kind of militia to play out the Turner Diaries. That was all very much directly from the kind of research. And I think, you know, obviously, Nick Holt had dived in, you know, pretty hard on some of the details of Bob Matthews and, you know, what made him be someone that, you know, people listen to and what was his sort of reach? And then with Husky, he was sort of inspired. The character that Jude's playing from, you know, a variety of FBI agents that had, you know, been involved in the case and had brought down the Order. So it was, you know, it's very much heavily based on the real events, which are quite extraordinary. They do feel like they come out of a kind of genre film. But, you know, to us, what was so shocking was that they were real and that this story just hadn't been told before.

[Alison Stewart]

Jude, you're sporting a pretty good stash in this film.

[Nick Holt]

What.

[Alison Stewart]

What kind of vocal work did you work with? Do you work with a coach to get the voice?

[Jude Law]

Yeah, if I. If I. If I. If I take on an accent, it's usually best to work with, you know, someone who knows what they're doing and how. And how to. How to best help me with that. What was interesting about this character were the layers that sort of led towards authentically displaying someone as tired and as sort of broken, as I mentioned before, as him. And the accent was absolutely a part of that. The key with accents, especially if you're playing someone who is an amalgam or fictional, is to be specific. So, again, whilst we were plotting his backstory, I really had to be very specific as to where he was from. And I've chosen not to reveal that, just in case anyone who's from there actually says, I sound nothing like it. And, you know, where his mom's from, where his dad's from, what he's hearing on the radio, and he's very much a man of that era. That was something that started to really become apparent both in the language he uses, the tone, the placement of his voice, but also, you know, the swagger. It was very interesting, you know, finding little details that perhaps sound eccentric and silly, but, you know, the right boots, learning to learn to wear a big belt with a gun on it all the time. I mean, it's extraordinary how that changes one's gait, you know, and all of that has helped me, certainly, in the bizarre job that, I mean, to find some sort of authenticity to creating someone.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, you know, it's sort of fascinating. About that character is Jude's character, Terry Husk. He's one of the good guys, but sometimes he doesn't seem so a good.

[Nick Holt]

Guy in his personal life.

[Alison Stewart]

Whereas Nicholas Holt's character, Bob Matthews, is.

[Nick Holt]

Charismatic in the way. Charismatic, racist and the way that he approaches that.

[Alison Stewart]

How did you want to play with.

[Nick Holt]

These parallels, these contradictions in the film?

[Jude Law]

I think that's probably best put to Justin, because for my taste, that's what Justin does so brilliantly as a storyteller. He approaches it on a very even playing field. He sees people as humans and unpacks them accordingly. And that, I think, makes his storytelling all the more effective.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think, Justin?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, yeah, well, look, it was. You know, what was sort of so fascinating about Bob Matthews is he was sort of a community man. I mean, he was. He was. You know, we were really fascinated about kind of having these endless barbecues, you know, throughout the film, these endless kind of sort of celebrations, groups. Like, he seemed like a guy that was there to kind of empower people by listening. So, you know, it wasn't so much kind of what he said, it was sort of sudden. Like, how do you make a group of people that feel disenfranchised, feel not heard? How do you suddenly empower them and make them feel sort of vital and that that was his sort of key. That's why he was sort of so dangerous. It wasn't only his kind of charisma in a way, but. But it was his ability to kind of exploit a sense of, you know, vulnerability in a lot of these people. Whereas Husk was sort of. There's a kind of wonderful kind of failure about Husk. He's sort of like, he's a bit of a throwback to those sort of, you know, 70s kind of characters that you would have seen in films from William Friedkin or Sidney Luma, you know, a Gene Hackman type character that sort of comes on screen. You think, I don't know how they're even going to get through this film. You know, they kind of so, so kind of failed, but somehow they kind of managed to be able to, you know, find their feet and, and you the great antiheroes. So I kind of love that. You know, there's also those characters that, you know, like Huss, you kind of don't know anything about them. They kind of define themselves as the film goes along. It's actually within the scenes rather than a whole lot of exposition. So I just love that old school mystery about the character of Hus that Jude plays, as opposed to the much more kind of social and kind of present and manipulative nature of Bob Matthews that Nicole plays.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's listen to a clip from the Order. This is after FBI agent Terry Husk. He's gone hunting and he runs into Bob Matthews. It's not a coincidence. Matthews is casing out Husk.

[Marc Maron]

Schwoke?

[Unknown]

No. Thank you, sir. No luck, huh?

[Jude Law]

Not today. Must be hiding.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Maybe it's a smoke.

[Jude Law]

To what?

[Unknown]

They like the fresh air. They smell you coming from miles. That so?

[Jude Law]

Mm hmm. You live near here?

[Unknown]

Yeah, pretty close. You're not from here, huh?

[Jude Law]

I'm new.

[Justin Kurzel]

You following me?

[Jude Law]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It looked like you could use some help.

[Alison Stewart]

Ooh. What does Terry Huss think about Bob at this moment?

[Jude Law]

Good question. I think it's a very interesting scene. I think he. It's an opportunity to see Terry's antenna in full work because he. He's behind both the audience and Matthews at this moment. He doesn't know he's being cased, but he's aware that something is ill fitting and his antennae are ringing because I think he knows something's up. He's obviously. Look, he's already on the case. So the possibility that this man, who he realizes is clearly there for a reason, which is to see, to tail him, could well be a part of this group or at least been hired by this group. Does he know it's the guy who's the head of this group? I don't think so. But it's an opportunity to see his antennae and his natural intuition operating. And what I love also is that it was. And it was a key moment in the script that really fed a lot of how I played Terry. Because what's key is Matthews completely underestimates Husk. You know, I think he's sitting there looking at this broken old man, smoking and possibly drunk, who can't even fire a gun and can't, you know, doesn't want to. Doesn't want to shoot an elk, let alone a man, you know. And I think he sits looking at him thinking, oh, I've got no problem here. And I thought. And I always saw that as a really key turning point, that at his error is to underestimate Terry at this point. There's a very key scene that it was actually the first time Nick and I met on set, just in. Justin orchestrated it so that the two of us, the two halves of this story, if you like the brotherhood and then the FBI, really kept apart. Because if you're making a film like this, why would you hang out and have lunch together if you're trying to build some kind of authentication tension? And that was. That was the first day we actually interacted and the first day we saw each other on the film.

[Nick Holt]

We're discussing the film the Order, which opens in theaters Friday, December 6th. I'm speaking with actor Jude Law and director Justin Kurzel. We'll have more after a quick break.

[Unknown]

This is all WNYC Studios is supported by GiveWell. When you make a big purchase, say a car or a new mattress, how do you make sure that you're making the right choice? GiveWell provides an independent resource for a different kind of purchase, a donation. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate. First time using GiveWell. When you go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter WNYC at checkout, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last.

[Marc Maron]

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[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm speaking with actor Jude Law and director Justin Kurzel about their new film, an FBI thriller called the Order, which opens on theaters Friday, December 6th. So, Justin, the film opens with radio host Alan Berg being extremely vocal in his stance against hate groups. Marc Maron plays Berg in the film. Obviously he's known for his podcast and they were talking about you a couple of weeks ago. He was interviewed, interviewing Sebastian Stan. They started talking about being an actor and Mark said, who else is he going to get for this role, first of all? And then he's described you as. He's an interesting guy. An interesting guy. He's intense. What's intense about you?

[Justin Kurzel]

Oh, I don't see myself as intense. I see myself as very a gentle puppy. I don't know what Marcus is talking about. I guess I look, I guess I'm intense. I lose myself a little being a director. I kind of go into the worlds and especially with takes, I kind of. The world disappears a little bit and I become kind of consumed and focused on what's sort of happening in front of me. But I, yeah, hopefully I'm gentle with it all as well.

[Alison Stewart]

We'll ask Jude then. What's intense about Justin as a director?

[Jude Law]

I think, you know, passion and enthusiasm for the work at hand and, you know, the love of the job can sometimes be maybe misconstrued as intensity. I felt like I really, you know, met a. Like mine when I did this film with Justin. And it's as he says, you know, you lose yourself and it becomes, it becomes, it becomes everything. It's why you're there and it's what it, it's what it requires, you know, to get it right if you're fortunate enough to be, to be in the, in the opportunity, given the opportunity to make a film especially like this. You know, it's very hard to get films like this made nowadays. You commit and that's intense. It's an intense experience. All in all, Marin's pretty bloody intense.

[Alison Stewart]

Good point. You know, Justin, all directors, I've, every director I've ever interviewed has said it's a job about making decisions quite often.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

What was a tough decision that you had to make on this film? The order?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, look, I think the, I think These films are becoming harder to make. I'm really sort of talking about independent films, and we had a lot of, you know, ambition with this film in terms of it being a genre film, and there are obviously many heists in it and so forth. But, you know, probably our. The biggest decision is really kind of what's the point of view and what's the feel of how you want to kind of tell this story? You know, I think that where does the camera want to be? Where do those performances want to be pitched? Like, what. What lens is the audience watching it through? And especially with a genre film like this, you have to sort of be. You have to really lead and pull an audience, you know, kind of through that maelstrom that you're kind of creating. So I think that that. That's the hardest thing every day is. Is. Are we making the same film as we made the day before? And. And, you know, is, you know, tracking these kind of characters and making sure that they're, you know, they're. They're. They're playing to the vision that you kind of had in your mind.

[Alison Stewart]

June, what do you like about taking part in an independent film?

[Jude Law]

Well, it usually means that the content is a challenge and worth spending time and effort on. Honestly, I enjoy the contrast to, say, bigger productions where you feel a little more unified in the kind of kick and scramble of getting the thing done. There's a passion. You know, there were days on this when we were up high up in the Rockies, in the mountains, and, you know, we'd have to change clothes in the car and grab a scene before the light went. And there's a wonderful kind of sense of visceral commitment. We talked before about intensity and passion. I mean, that's at the heartbeat of an experience like this. But you look around you at these wonderful collaborators in every department, and they're there for a reason. They love the experience. They love the art of filmmaking, and they believe in the subject, and especially with something as relevant, as poignant as this story. And there's a wonderful sense of camaraderie. You get through a day where you've pulled off more than enough setup, which is, you know, getting the scene shot in a certain way. And it's a fantastic sense of fulfillment. Very.

[Justin Kurzel]

I gotta say, these. These sort of films were studio films.

[Jude Law]

Yeah.

[Justin Kurzel]

Sort of 10 or 15 years ago. I mean, I think it will look and feel like a kind of nostalgic sort of studio film.

[Jude Law]

It does, absolutely.

[Justin Kurzel]

You know, I think when. When we kind of sort of talk about Studio films. Now, obviously, they're. They're all, you know, franchises or whatever, but. But actually this. This will remind people of those kind of studio films that we, you know, that we used to make not that long ago. So it's kind of. There's an irony in the fact that, yeah, it's an independent film, but it. It actually is a kind of throwback to, you know, those films that everyone loves that, that I actually think people miss in terms of the genre, but also just a hell of a good story that we were really mindful of.

[Nick Holt]

Well, Justin, your producer said that it was, quote, a not an easy sell to distributors originally. When you first brought the film out, what would be your pitch to them?

[Alison Stewart]

To distributors?

[Nick Holt]

Yeah, if somebody was on the fence about it?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, I. Well, it was like when I first read it and I think. I think when you watch the film, I think you just get caught up in this. Wow. This feels like this wonderful kind of nostalgic heist film that has these two competing points of view, this sort of amazing cat and mouse kind of tone to it, but you're suddenly kind of shocked and surprised at. At the fact that it's based on a real story and that. And that it. And that sort of, you know, it has a kind of feeling about it that is now, you know, and to some extent that's kind of horrific, you know, in the. In how it does speak, I think, so much to the present, but at the same time there's, you know, there's something kind of really dynamic and kind of revealing in the way it's framed in the 80s and, and actually kind of how surprising the story is. I mean, it was a really significant event, but as I said, really unreported. And I think people are going to be quite surprised and amazed and intrigued by the fact that, you know, it happened.

[Alison Stewart]

Jude, in the last US election, there were so many conversations about DEI and standing up to hate. What do you hope this film contributes to those ongoing discourse about extremism and its impact on society?

[Jude Law]

I think what Justin has done so successfully with this subject is unpack and look at the communities we all surround ourselves with and how they support us and how we seek people to sort of both support us and also give us a sense of family and how and why that can perhaps better teach us, you know, to be mindful of, you know, toxic individuals. I think there's a very interesting through line in this piece which, rather than cast people in sort of good and bad roles, tries to understand the sort of community that people look for if they feel isolated and if they're quite simply looking for understanding. And I think they can also take away from this film. It's thrilling to watch. It's also a very exciting, propulsive piece of filmmaking.

[Nick Holt]

What did you think, Justin, in terms of your. The way it impacts the way we're discussing extremism and its impact on society?

[Justin Kurzel]

Well, I've always been interested in, you know, in communities and what makes communities vulnerable. Why do people sort of search and seek out perhaps company in really dangerous ideologies? I think that it is about, you know, it's about communication and it's about listening and it's about, you know, getting closer to each other. I think that when communities feel isolated, I think that when they feel unheard, I think things, you know, things become dangerous. And, you know, that was certainly the aspect that I was most interested in, the Order and in my previous work, a lot of the work has been about those kind of outliers, about those communities that suddenly find themselves on the edge of the rest of the rest of the country and how they sort of start to kind of, I guess, watch and listen and reach towards figures like a kind of Bob Matthews. And I think that's the kind of kernel of it is, you know, how. Why are particular kind of communities seeking kind of answers in these sort of shadows?

[Nick Holt]

The movie is really good. It's called the Order. It'll be in theaters on Friday, December 6th. My guests have been actor Jude Law and director Justin Kurzel. Thank you for spending the time with us.

[Jude Law]

Thank you.

[Justin Kurzel]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

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