Amy Sherald’s 'American Sublime' Portraits at the Whitney

Summary

Episode Summary: All Of It – Amy Sherrill’s 'American Sublime' Portraits at the Whitney

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Guest: Amy Sherrill
• Episode Title: Amy Sherrill’s 'American Sublime' Portraits at the Whitney
• Release Date: April 9, 2025
• Description: In this episode, host Alison Stewart interviews artist Amy Sherrill about her new exhibition, "American Sublime," at the Whitney Museum. The discussion delves into Sherrill's artistic journey, her creative processes, specific pieces from the exhibition, and the profound personal experiences that have shaped her work.

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Introduction to American Sublime

The episode opens with Alison Stewart welcoming listeners and introducing Amy Sherrill’s latest exhibition, "American Sublime," which features approximately 50 of Sherrill’s vibrant and thought-provoking portraits. Sherrill’s work is currently on display at the Whitney Museum and includes pieces not previously showcased in New York, as well as a newly commissioned billboard across from the museum.

Notable Quote:

• "It's nice to be here," [02:13] – Amy Sherrill

Artistic Journey and Manifestation of the Exhibition

Alison Stewart begins by exploring the behind-the-scenes efforts leading up to the exhibition. Sherrill describes the experience of preparing for the show as akin to a wedding, filled with emotional highs and a sense of community amidst a tumultuous world.

Notable Quote:

• "There's a lot of tears and hugs and just kind of pure joy," [02:28] – Amy Sherrill

Sherrill recounts her early days as an artist, highlighting a pivotal moment at Pace Gallery where she realized the importance of dedicating herself to her craft rather than relying solely on networking.

Notable Quote:

• "It wasn't gonna happen magically. It's just gonna happen when the work is ready," [03:16] – Amy Sherrill

Discovery and Education in Art

Growing up in Columbus, Georgia, Sherrill’s initial exposure to art came through encyclopedias rather than museums. This early self-guided education fostered her fascination with art history and influential artists like Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci.

Notable Quote:

• "I discover art in encyclopedias... I was meeting Michelangelo, Leonardo and all those guys," [05:33] – Amy Sherrill

Her formal education in art began in earnest during her time in college, where Dr. Arturo Lindsay played a significant role in shaping her approach to storytelling through art.

Transition to Oil and Canvas

Sherrill explains her transition from acrylics to oil paints as a step towards achieving a more sophisticated and mature artistic expression. This shift was influenced by her desire to be seen as a "grown-up" artist.

Notable Quote:

• "When I was in graduate school, I felt like it was the thing to do to paint in oil paints," [10:43] – Amy Sherrill

Themes and Techniques in American Sublime

Process Painting and Evolution of Techniques

Sherrill discusses her early work, specifically the painting "Hangman" from 2007. She describes it as a process painting where experimentation led her to question and ultimately evolve her artistic style.

Notable Quote:

• "I was asking questions because I had just come back from Columbus, Georgia, taking care of my family," [11:09] – Amy Sherrill

Grisaille and Its Significance

The artist introduces her use of grisaille—a gray monochromatic palette—for skin tones, which began after the creation of "Hangman." This technique allows viewers to focus on color and pattern before engaging with the figure's identity.

Notable Quote:

• "Grisaille... it's a way to address that where when you're approaching the work, you see color first," [15:38] – Amy Sherrill

Highlighted Artworks in the Exhibition

"As an American, as apple pie" (2020)

One of the standout pieces, "As an American, as apple pie," is a large-scale painting depicting a Brooklyn couple with their 1973 Buick. The artwork challenges traditional American symbols, offering a contemporary take on identity and belonging.

Notable Quote:

• "We're swapping out these iconic kind of tropes that come into play when you think about what Americanism is," [17:40] – Amy Sherrill

"If you could surrender to the air" (2019)

Inspired by Toni Morrison’s Beloved, this painting portrays a black man suspended on a beam, alluding to both historical and personal narratives.

Notable Quote:

• "It's a line from Toni Morrison's novel Beloved," [18:37] – Amy Sherrill

"Listening You a Wonder, You're a City of a Woman"

Named after a Lucille Clifton poem, this piece captures the essence of a woman’s identity and personal narrative, highlighted by subtle details like a missing wedding ring.

Notable Quote:

• "It's a painting of a woman in a black and white dress... there's a tan line on her ring finger where she's missing her wedding ring," [24:30] – Amy Sherrill

Personal Experiences Shaping Her Art

Heart Transplant and Its Impact

Sherrill shares her profound personal journey, including a heart transplant at age 39. This life-altering experience reinforced her commitment to authenticity and artistic integrity.

Notable Quote:

• "I was waiting for my heart for two months at Johns Hopkins University... I have to leave things up to my heart," [25:30] – Amy Sherrill

She reflects on how facing mortality compelled her to pursue her passion relentlessly, leading to significant achievements like having her work acquired by the National Museum of Women in the Arts.

Notable Quote:

• "I was so happy about that I didn't quit. I stayed true to myself," [25:38] – Amy Sherrill

Artistic Philosophy and Future Directions

Sherrill emphasizes the universality of her work, striving to place her black identity within a broader American narrative without reducing it to a single topic.

Notable Quote:

• "Race is important, but it doesn't need to be the most important thing about the work," [16:37] – Amy Sherrill

She also touches on the physical demands of large-scale paintings and how they necessitate a different approach to composition and detail.

Notable Quote:

• "It's very physical... I realized that my highlights had to be hotter and the contrast really needed to be there," [20:04] – Amy Sherrill

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Amy Sherrill offers a deep dive into her artistic process, the personal experiences that have shaped her work, and the thematic richness of her "American Sublime" exhibition. Through her vibrant portraits and thoughtful narratives, Sherrill invites viewers to engage with complex conversations about identity, authenticity, and the evolving landscape of American culture.

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Notable Sections and Quotes with Timestamps:

• [02:13] – "It's nice to be here." – Amy Sherrill introduces herself.
• [03:16] – "It wasn't gonna happen magically. It's just gonna happen when the work is ready." – Sherrill reflects on her approach to success.
• [05:33] – "I was meeting Michelangelo, Leonardo and all those guys." – Early art inspirations.
• [10:43] – "When I was in graduate school, I felt like it was the thing to do to paint in oil paints." – Transition to oil and canvas.
• [15:38] – "Grisaille... it's a way to address that where when you're approaching the work, you see color first." – Use of grisaille technique.
• [17:40] – "We're swapping out these iconic kind of tropes that come into play when you think about what Americanism is." – Interpretation of "As an American, as apple pie."
• [18:37] – "It's a line from Toni Morrison's novel Beloved." – Inspiration for "If you could surrender to the air."
• [24:30] – "It's a painting of a woman in a black and white dress... there's a tan line on her ring finger where she's missing her wedding ring." – Details on "Listening You a Wonder, You're a City of a Woman."
• [25:30] – "I was waiting for my heart for two months at Johns Hopkins University... I have to leave things up to my heart." – Heart transplant experience.
• [25:38] – "I was so happy about that I didn't quit. I stayed true to myself." – Commitment to art post-transplant.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Amy Sherrill’s interview on All Of It, highlighting her artistic evolution, personal resilience, and the thematic depth of her "American Sublime" exhibition. For those interested in contemporary art and the intricate narratives it can convey, this episode offers valuable insights into Sherrill’s creative world.

Transcript

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[Amy Sherrill]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, we'll talk with author Kevin Wynn about his new novel called My Documents. We'll learn about a new exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York dedicated to the city's social dance scene. And poet Vincent Katz will be to talk about his latest collection. That is our plan. So let's get this started with artist Amy Sherrild. Amy Sherrid paints portraits. A woman holding a baby, a red haired teen rocking a leather jacket. A first lady sort of posed like the Thinker, A black man sitting on an iron beam high in the sky. About 50 paintings can be seen at the Whitney Museum in the show Amy Sherrild American Sublime. It opens today. The show originated at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, but there are a few additions for New York, some that haven't been seen before. Plus a newly commissioned billboard of her work featured on the building's facade across the street across from the Whitney. Amy Sherrill has been an artist since she was a kid. She worked her way up in school. She waited tables to make ends meet. She allegedly manifested this show almost 18 years ago, but surely her hard work had something to do with it. New York magazine called seeing the show, quote, an experience and having your breath taken away. I'm joined by Amy Sherrell in studio. It is really nice to see you. Hi.

[Amy Sherrill]

It's nice to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

When you think back over the past two weeks as the show has gotten ready, as the show has gotten up, have there's been press previews? You've been on charge for press previews. What's been a real highlight of the past two weeks?

[Amy Sherrill]

Oh, I mean, just the whole thing. To be honest, I feel like I got married last week. It's been like a wedding. It's just been like so much great energy. People are just so happy. There's a lot of tears when they come to the show. It's just a lot of tears and hugs and just kind of pure joy, which feels strange right now because there's so many other things happening in the world that feel so heavy. So I think there's a sense of relief that it's happening, but then also a sense of relief that it's in the world and doing some good.

[Alison Stewart]

When you were a younger artist used to take the train up to the Whitney. What do you remember about those experiences? Who do you remember coming to see?

[Amy Sherrill]

I remember one experience of coming to see a Keith Tyson exhibition at Pace Gallery, long time ago. And I remember being in that gallery space and just kind of standing around, because as a young artist, you're like, you know, I'm going to network, I'm going to meet people, I'm going to make connections. And in every gallery space, if you look around, you'll see that there's kind of this invisible door that opens, but it doesn't have a doorknob on it. And usually behind that door are all the people that you need to meet. And I saw the artist walk behind that door, and then I looked around, and I'm like, I'm just standing here with a bunch of other artists that want the exact same thing that I want. And in that moment, I realized that it was probably more important for me to be in my studio working and being, you know, ready for the moment when it happens than like, trying to force something to happen by shaking a hand or meeting the right person. Like, it wasn't gonna happen magically. It's just gonna happen when the work is ready.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you indeed manifest this show?

[Amy Sherrill]

I keep a journal and I write things down. And when I made the painting that the Whitney bought for their permanent collection, in my mind, I was making that painting for it to be exhibited in the Whitney Museum. So, yes, I think, you know, thoughts become things. I truly believe that.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Amy Sherrill. Her new show, American Sublime, opens today at the Whitney. Only open till August 10th. By the way, you grew up Columbus, Georgia. When did you discover art?

[Amy Sherrill]

I discovered art in encyclopedias because my family, it's not. You know, my dad was into jazz. He played the trumpet. We would go to see plays and things like that, but we never went to museums. And so I didn't go to a museum for the first time until the sixth grade. So I was really just looking at books at home. And we had two sets of encyclopedias that I spent a lot of time with. And that was my. Whatever was in that. I don't know what that is. Like, you know, each encyclopedia starts with a letter, so whatever was in that a book was like, What I saw.

[Alison Stewart]

I used to read the encyclopedias all the time.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah. That's where I had my first art experience. And so I was meeting Michelangelo, Leonardo and all those guys.

[Alison Stewart]

When did you discover you could make art?

[Amy Sherrill]

Oh, wow. I guess at a very young age, too. But it depends on whether you mean art with a capital A or art with the lowercase A. I want to.

[Alison Stewart]

Start with the lowercase. Let's start lowercase.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah. I think when my mom decided to put me in art classes after school, I had the same art teacher from kindergarten to 12th grade. And I went to a private Catholic school. And working with her, I started to, you know, I was just painting and working all the time. But I guess I would say it was probably in college when I met Dr. Arturo Lindsay, who was my painting instructor. And one of our assignments was to go see a show of his at a gallery called Nexus Contemporary. And that's when I really started to see my, you know, my thoughts and my ideas as something that were being formulated to put something out in the world that meant something.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. Dr. Arturo Lindsay was really important part of your career. What was something that he taught you or introduced to you about art that you still use to this day to.

[Amy Sherrill]

Make things that you care about? I think I was pre med. My father was a dentist. And so I changed my major to art without telling my parents when I was a junior. And he really worked with me to kind of help me catch up. But I think when he asked me what I wanted to make work about, I wasn't sure. And he's like, what kind of story do you want to tell? And at that time I was really studying a lot of Frida Kahlo and it was autobiographical. And so my first paintings were just that. They were lots of self portraits that were like a mix between Frida Kahlo and if someone had illustrated Octavia Butler story. And I wasn't even into sci fi, but that's just the direction that I was going for some reason.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, you had middle class black parents of a certain age.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

So when you said to them, I'm going to be an artist, first of all, what was the reaction?

[Amy Sherrill]

It was a nightmare. I mean, like, I might as well have said, I want to be a stripper. Like, they just didn't. They were like, what are you talking about? How will you eat? Yeah, how will you eat? Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

So what did you say to them that convinced them that you were going to be an artist?

[Amy Sherrill]

I never did. I mean, I just knew I had to follow My heart. I met a man on Clark Atlanta University's campus randomly one day that was selling his art on this strip between campus and where the dorms were. And I ran back to my dorm and got this drawing that I had done that I had won, like, honorable mention at the University of Georgia for when I was in high school. And he told me it was good. And he said, you know, if you don't use your talent, you'll lose your talent. And something in that moment struck me, and I got afraid. And that's when I changed my major. I just knew I had to do it. But my mom, literally, at the unveiling, was. We were walking with President Obama back to the press room to take pictures. And he looked at her and he said, you must be so proud of her. And she looked at him and said, well, I have to be honest. I really didn't think this was gonna work out. And I'm like, okay, yeah, it was. It was a moment.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you ever doubt yourself?

[Amy Sherrill]

Maybe for a day or two. I mean, like, because you wake up. And as I hit 40, you know, my late 30s and 40s, I was like, does this really make sense for me to do? When you're waiting tables and you're 35, 36 years old, and your friends are buying houses and, you know, having children and shopping for patio furniture, then you start to question your sanity. But I also had a deep knowing that this was gonna work out if I just kept going. Like, I made the work. And when some of the paintings that are in the show are paintings that I've made, and when I made those paintings, I felt something in my body that let me know that this was something that I needed to keep going.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Amy Sherrill. American Sublime is at the Whitney. Your practice. I watched a bunch of videos with you, and you always have earbuds in.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

What are you listening to when you're painting?

[Amy Sherrill]

Either music or podcasts. It's like, stories, a lot of murder mysteries, things that. Things that keep me going. Yeah, I can't listen to music because it makes me want to move and dance, and I need to be still. My spirit needs to be quiet to work. So I can't listen to music. Music. I listen to music for people with adhd because that helps me focus, too.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you have any rituals in your studio before you paint or while you paint.

[Amy Sherrill]

Now? A new one is taking my shoes off and putting on slippers, because when I'm there for 10 hours, it really works. But I think coming in Having a cup of tea and I try to read for 20 minutes before I start.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah, it just kind of settles my energy.

[Alison Stewart]

Fiction? Nonfiction?

[Amy Sherrill]

Both. Yeah. I mean, it's really the only time I have to read. I feel like life is busy and usually, you know, it could take me six months to get through a book because I'm reading at nighttime and then I fall asleep. So. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Why do you choose oil and canvas.

[Amy Sherrill]

Or oil and linen when I. It's probably a silly answer, but when I was in graduate school, I felt like it was the thing to do to paint in oil paints, as I painted in acrylic up until that time. And it's like, you know, I want to be a grown up artist, so I need to. I need to change to oil.

[Alison Stewart]

Acrylic wasn't considered grown up.

[Amy Sherrill]

I mean, in my mind I was like, oh, this is more sophisticated.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about the show. The show is hung in chronological order and one of the first paintings we see is Hangman from 2007. It's a little bit different from others. It's in profile, a man, he's at bare feet, he's in a model background, just sort of alludes to violence in history. Hangman and Ru Hockley, who curated the show, said you weren't that sure about it.

[Amy Sherrill]

I mean, you know, I'm 51 years old. I've been painting for a while, a very long time. I made that painting in 2007. And it was really a process painting. Like you have to make. I tell young artists, like, you have to make, you have to fail fast, right? You have to make a lot of bad paintings before you make a good painting. And I'm not saying that that painting was a bad painting, but it was a process painting that I was asking questions because I had just come back from Columbus, Georgia, taking care of my family. I had been out of grad school for four years and had not been working because I was taking care of my family. So I was asking myself, like, what it is that I need to create in order for me to have a career and do this. And so when your listeners go to the show, if they're looking at that painting, they'll see three floating figures in the background. And those figures are what I was speaking about earlier of these kind of self. Bald headed self portraits that I was painting in college and undergraduate. But I was deeply honest with myself in that moment and I said to myself, like this that you're making now isn't going to be the Work that's sophisticated enough to carry your career forward. And so it took a year of me failing in order to get to that next level. And I had to cover up that painting that I spent so much time working on and ended up coming across some postcards from the exhibition. It's the Lynching exhibition where they had the postcards, and there's this one postcard where there's a figure. The photograph is so old that you can't see the rope that this man's body is hanging from. And so it's almost like he's levitating over a crowd. And so that painting is inspired by that photograph. But it ended up kind of just being like a one off. And I wasn't able to carry the idea or that thought. So it's. So it's an important painting. It's just, you know, I mean, everybody, like once you've been painting for 10 years, you look back and you're like, it's okay if nobody ever sees that again.

[Alison Stewart]

But it's actually good, though, because the show is so expansive.

[Amy Sherrill]

It is, yes. Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

It's interesting. Over time, I think people have come to know you for your vibrant background, these bright, vibrant backgrounds. But there are some that are, that are modeled and it goes along the way. And I was looking through the book and I'm curious, when do you decide to go with just a background garden? Or when do you decide when you're gonna introduce color?

[Amy Sherrill]

I mean, that it happened gradually. The modeled kind of technique is something that I just came, I kind of randomly did in graduate school where I was making a painting, realized it wasn't working. I poured turpentine over it, left to go get something to eat, came back, and the turpentine had kind of broken the surface of the paint. And for me, I thought it was an interesting way of dealing with the background because I didn't want the figures to be placed anywhere where there was any kind of contextual influence. I was also working and studying under Grace Hartigan at the time, who is a well known female abstract expressionist. And so, you know, she's a dripper. And so we would have these conversations and we'd talk about dripping. So I did a lot of glazing and, you know, allowing the paint to move on the canvas. When I was working in graduate school under her tutelage. And I think I made one painting that's not in the show. It was in the SFMOMA iteration that when I did the model background, for some reason it didn't Work with that figure, with the print on the sweater that she had on. And I remember calling Arturo, and I'm like, what do I do? And he's like, well, you do what you do. It's your paintings. You can do whatever you want to do. And I'm like, I'm a Virgo. I make these rules. I have to follow these rules that I've set for myself. And can I break this rule? What does it mean? And he's like, just calm down and make a beautiful painting. So I made the background flat, and everything was okay, you know, but it just. I slowly just transitioned out of it.

[Alison Stewart]

You paint, and I hope I'm saying this right. Is it Grizzell?

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah. Grisaille. Grisaille.

[Alison Stewart]

Grisaille. It's a gray tone used for skin color. When did you start that? And what creative freedom does it bring you?

[Amy Sherrill]

I started it after that hangman painting that we were just speaking about, and I realized that it was that one. I think artists, as we make aesthetic decisions, that it was just beautiful to see this gray figure floating in the middle of all of this color. Right? But then as I began to think about the work, as each painting evolved, I'm thinking two or three years later now, I look back, and I realize that I was subconsciously, I think, a little bit afraid that the work would be considered something to only have a conversation about race around or only have a conversation about identity around. And I really wanted to be a part of a greater conversation of American painters and not be pushed in a corner. So I think, for me, it was a way to kind of address that where when you're approaching the work, you see color first, you see what they're adorned in, you see patterns, and then you come to this person. And, of course, I can never take race out of a conversation. Like, if we look at each other through our phenotypes anyway, like, it's just, you know, race is important, but it doesn't need to be the most important thing about the work.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Amy Sherrell. We're talking about American Sublime, which is at the Whitney right now. Let's talk about a few of the pieces which are special to this show. As an American, as apple pie from 2020, first time it's been shown, I believe, believe, in the US outside of your studio. It's huge. It's a huge painting. There's a lot of storytelling in this piece. You see this woman wearing a Barbie shirt. She's got a nice skirt on, man next to her. He's Wearing a jacket. There's a little white picket fence behind them, A little house. Maybe they're on the way to the barbecue. Not sure. The car looks a little bit old, though. What was the inspiration for it?

[Amy Sherrill]

The couple. That couple was the inspiration. I mean, they're a real couple. They live in Brooklyn, New York. They collect cars. That was a 73 Buick that they had just gotten. And I just happened to come across them when I was in Brooklyn visiting a friend's mother. And I wanted to tell that story, and I had the Barbie idea in my head. But when I saw them, it just all came together as, like, this one big statement. I mean, we all are talking now about, like, who gets to be American. And I think, you know, really swapping out these iconic kind of tropes that come into play when you think about what Americanism is and what it looks like. This painting is exactly that.

[Alison Stewart]

If you could surrender to the air, you could Write it from 2019. It's a black man. He's on a suspended beam. White sweater, orange hat, sort of orange printed pants. First of all, what does the title mean?

[Amy Sherrill]

It's a line from Toni Morrison's novel Beloved. And I do that a lot with my titles. When I say do that, I mean, I read books, find lines that really resonate with me. I save them and either use them immediately or I will make a painting that will be named something later.

[Alison Stewart]

And in that picture, it reminds me of all of the men. It's like an old, old painting who are sitting on a beam.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yes. Lunch atop a skyscraper.

[Alison Stewart]

Is it a relation to that?

[Amy Sherrill]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

[Alison Stewart]

What happened to the rest of the men?

[Amy Sherrill]

Well, I mean, I only use one figure. I mean, funny story is I had. I have an image. If you sit through the Art 21 video that's playing in the show, there's an image of the same beam with a group of women sitting on it. But in order for the painting to work, in my opinion, it had to be bigger than I was, bigger than I could make it, or it was too big. So I measured it. I had a canvas made, not knowing that I would not be able to get it out of the studio once it was made, because it wouldn't fit in the freight elevator. So it's something that I might revisit. But it didn't work out the first time.

[Alison Stewart]

What did you learn about having to paint on a huge scale? Once you got your own studio and you can make them as big as you wanted, you really had to shift a little bit.

[Amy Sherrill]

It's very physical. And the individual portraits, the faces are more. When I say, I guess more nuanced. Like, I realized that my highlights had to be hotter and the contrast really needed to be there. So I'm constantly stepping off of the scaffold and walking back to see that the mark that I made, that I thought was so dynamic up close, 20ft away, I can't even see it. So, yeah, it's a different way of painting.

[Alison Stewart]

There's also. I think it's art 21 showed you painting for love of country.

[Amy Sherrill]

For love and for country. Yeah. Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

And there's a photograph that you're painting off of. And there's a photograph which is of you taking pictures of your models. First of all, did you ever have any interest in photography?

[Amy Sherrill]

I do. I mean, it's definitely a huge part of my process. It's how I sketch, more or less. But I'm a painter, and so I'm sticking to my corner.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, what's the relationship for you as a painter to photography? You're looking at the painting.

[Amy Sherrill]

I'm.

[Alison Stewart]

Excuse me, at the photograph. And you have to paint it.

[Amy Sherrill]

I have. I mean, for me, photography was how I. It was the. I wasn't finding myself in art history, but I did find myself in photography. Like, you know, when Velazquez and Caravaggio were making these beautiful paintings, we were not making paintings as a black people, no matter where we were in the diaspora. So, you know, thank goodness for the invention of the camera when we have the opportunity to become authors of our own narrative and create our own images how we want it to be seen. But it's a huge part of my process. But I'm not a painter.

[Alison Stewart]

You're a painter.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yeah. I'll leave that to Dawoud Bey.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Amy Sherrild. We're talking about American Sublime. It's her show at the Whitney. If you want to take a look at some of the images we're talking about, we've put a few on our Instagram of it. Wnyc. There are two big portraits in this show that a lot of people will know. One of Breonna Taylor and one of Michelle Obama. The name of the painting is Michelle Lavaugh. You can see every one of those names in that painting, in my opinion. What do you see when you look at it now?

[Amy Sherrill]

Oh, wow. I see her. I mean, I consider her a friend. I see my friend. I see a woman who brought so much hope and gave all of us permission to be ourselves because she lives in her full, authentic self. And I think that's one of her most endearing qualities. So that's who I see.

[Alison Stewart]

I went to see you and Annie Lewitt's talk. It was about a month or so ago. And Annie, I think she said she described you as giving Michelle Obama her freedom back. Not literally, but I did understand what she was saying about you gave her sense of self back in the picture. First of all, do you agree with that idea?

[Amy Sherrill]

I think so. I mean, I love hearing other people's interpretation of what I do, because as the one who's creating it, you don't always have those thoughts because you're so close to it.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you get when you see a model or someone like Michelle who you know now, do you. How does the inner person, the person's inner self come out when you're painting? Do you see it?

[Amy Sherrill]

I feel it. It's an energy. We all have energy, and we're all drawn to have the friends that we have. I think we're drawn to the people in our lives, and I think I'm drawn to my subjects in that same way. But it's something that's difficult to put words to, to be honest.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, I read somewhere that you paint the eyes first often. Why do you start with the eyes?

[Amy Sherrill]

Well, I feel like I have to finish the whole face first before I proceed to close or anything like that.

[Alison Stewart]

What's a painting in the show, outside of the big ones that Mrs. Obama and Breonna and the ones that people know, the COVID of the New Yorker that you would really like people to spend a little extra time looking at?

[Amy Sherrill]

Maybe the painting is named after a Lucille Clifton poem. It's listening you a wonder. You're a city of a woman. You have a geography of your own. So that's just the first line of the poem by Lucille Clifton. But that painting is of a woman. We nickname her church girl. But it's a painting of a woman in a black and white dress and she's holding a purse. She has on a black hat. She's standing in the sun. And if you look closely, you'll see that there's a tan line on her ring finger where she's missing her. Her wedding ring. And so I really. I just love that painting so much. I just love that painting so much.

[Alison Stewart]

Amy, our final question for you is something that I relate to. You were 39 years old and you had a heart transplant. Yes, my sister had a heart transplant.

[Amy Sherrill]

Oh, really?

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, just a couple of years ago. And it's really an emotional journey.

[Amy Sherrill]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Aside from just the transplant, there's years after years and years after.

[Amy Sherrill]

11 years now for me. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

How did it change your art? How did that second chance change your art?

[Amy Sherrill]

It did not. I was waiting for my heart for two months at Johns Hopkins University. And while I was waiting, I was writing for a Jackson Pollock or no Pollock Krasner foundation grant. Because in my mind, I was just like, I still have to get out of here and make work, you know? So I guess what changed me was leading up to the transplant. So I was diagnosed with heart failure at 30 years old. And my doctor was like, you have about 10 years to live. Like, your heart function right now is at 18%. And I was asymptomatic. I was training for an Ironman. Like, I wanted to do triathlons. And so in that moment, for those 10 years, I did everything that. I took a lot of risk. And I think I might have still taken those risks had I not had, like, an expiration date. But because of that, when I got out of graduate school, I never thought, I need to hurry up and get a job so I can pay back these school loans. I was just like, f these school loans, Like, I have a. A master's degree in fine arts, and I'm going to be an artist. And so I pursued that relentlessly. It's also a part of the work in the way that, you know, I wanted to find out who Amy Sherrill really was. Like, who are you outside of all these constructs that we're born into? Like, who are you? Who is your deepest self? So it was a spiritual journey. And I think, for me, that's why it's important for the work to exist in this universal space. Because I exist in this universal space, and so does my blackness. It exists in this universal space. And so those are the ways that I think I was deeply influenced. It just. I had to live as authentically as possible, because when that moment came where I was in the hospital for two months, and I knew that if I didn't get a heart in four weeks, I was so satisfied with my life. And I wasn't, like, hugely successful like the. But, you know, I had two paintings that. That were acquired by the National Museum of Women in the Arts. You know, like, my paintings were, like, $3,000. Like, it wasn't. You know, but what I was so happy about was that I didn't quit. I stayed true to myself. I never said, okay, I give up. I'm just gonna go ahead and get a regular job and like just do what everyone else did. It's like I was so in my mind I was successful. I would have died successful had I not gotten an organ in time.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, I'm glad you got the organ.

[Amy Sherrill]

Me too.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest has been Amy Sherrild. American Sublime is at the Whitney now. Thanks for coming in.

[Amy Sherrill]

Thank you for having me.

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