Are Videos Killing Podcasts?

Summary

All Of It – Episode Summary: "Are Videos Killing Podcasts?"

Release Date: January 17, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Nick Kwa, Podcast Critic for Vulture and New York Magazine
Duration: Approximately 24 minutes

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the evolving landscape of podcasting, specifically examining the rising trend of incorporating video into traditionally audio-based formats. Featuring insights from Nick Kwa, a renowned podcast critic, the discussion navigates the implications of this shift for podcasters, listeners, and the broader media ecosystem.

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The Rise of Video in Podcasting

Why Are Podcasts Turning to Video?

The episode begins by highlighting the increasing integration of video elements into podcasts. This trend is largely driven by the pursuit of greater visibility and engagement across social media platforms. As Nick Kwa explains:

“It's growth. A bunch of sort of bigger publishers and bigger shows have noticed that when they add a video element or when they also distribute it, in particular over YouTube and maybe break it out into clips for social media to get a lot more, at least traction according to the metrics.”
(02:57)

Benefits of Video Integration

Video enhances discoverability on platforms like YouTube, where visuals can attract a broader audience and facilitate content sharing through clips and snippets. The Joe Rogan Experience, for example, demonstrates this with its high visibility on YouTube, amassing over 54 million views for an interview with Donald Trump.

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Impact on Podcast Identity and Content

Redefining What a Podcast Is

Kwa raises critical questions about the very identity of podcasts. Traditionally viewed as audio-centric mediums, the introduction of video components challenges this perception.

“I also associate it with something that's closer to audio documentary or something that's closer to audio art, something that, you know, you can't really represent in a visual medium.”
(03:36)

The integration of video tends to favor "chatcasts" — conversational podcasts with hosts and guests — over more niche or creatively ambitious formats. This shift risks marginalizing podcasts that thrive on the purely auditory experience, such as audio documentaries or narrative-driven shows.

Aesthetic and Accessibility Concerns

The move to video introduces aesthetic pressures, particularly exacerbating gender biases. Women podcasters may feel compelled to meet certain visual standards, while male hosts often benefit from a more relaxed visual presentation.

“For many of these shows, this video element or visual element of media means that only a certain kind of look, a person who looks a certain way shall, can benefit from being on screen.”
(08:25)

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Listener Perspectives and Reactions

Mixed Reactions from the Audience

Listeners express varying opinions on the shift to video podcasts. Some appreciate the enhanced engagement, while others prefer the simplicity and flexibility of audio-only formats.

Listener Stephanie from Brooklyn shares her frustration:

“They recently started and switched to video and they're now on YouTube. And I'm completely refusing to listen to the video and to watch the video because I love listening to it. For me, it's like the place that I zone out and I like being able to picture things.”
(17:35)

This sentiment underscores a segment of the audience that values podcasts for their portability and the ability to consume content without being tethered to a screen.

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Challenges Faced by Podcasters

Platform Dependency Risks

Kwa points out that relying heavily on platforms like YouTube can make podcasters vulnerable to the platform's changing algorithms and policies. This dependency contrasts with the traditional strength of podcasts in being platform-agnostic.

“It just means that podcasters as a whole is more dependent on one platform, in this case YouTube.”
(07:03)

Barrier to Entry for New Podcasters

The shift towards video can create higher entry barriers for new podcasters who may lack the resources or desire to produce video content, potentially stifling diversity and innovation within the medium.

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Future of Podcasting

Sustainability of Audio-First Podcasts

Despite the growing trend, Nick Kwa remains hopeful for the persistence of audio-first podcasts, emphasizing that there's still a strong desire for non-visual content. However, he acknowledges that finding and retaining an audience may become more challenging.

“I don't think it'll happen and I just think it'll just be much harder for audio only podcasts to exist and to find audiences.”
(10:25)

Adaptation and Evolution

Kwa suggests that the podcasting ecosystem must evolve to accommodate various formats, ensuring that audio-centric podcasts continue to thrive alongside their video-enhanced counterparts.

“As long as the desires are there, things can change.”
(23:00)

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Special Highlights

Listener Recommendations and Clips

Throughout the episode, listeners contribute their favorite podcasts and share clips from recommended shows like Hearing Things and Question Everything. These segments illustrate the diversity of the podcasting world and the personal connections listeners have with their chosen content.

Tribute to "Shortcuts"

A heartfelt tribute is paid to the BBC's Shortcuts, a beloved podcast series ending its run. Kwa reflects on its impact:

“It's always, always surprising and always kind of this precious little gem. And I think as the BBC is cutting it, due to larger things going on at the organization, we're losing a space to find not just new forms of audio, but also new talent.”
(20:27)

Additionally, the episode celebrates local talent with a mention of producer Luke Green's documentary short featured on Shortcuts, highlighting the interconnectedness of the podcast community.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the delicate balance between embracing new media trends and preserving the core essence of podcasting. While video integration offers pathways to growth and increased engagement, it also introduces challenges that could reshape the medium's landscape. Nick Kwa remains optimistic, believing that the inherent demand for diverse podcast formats will drive the evolution of podcasting, ensuring that both audio and video-centric shows find their place in the future.

“The desire and the want is there, and the hunger for something new is always there. And so the system will reward and support one thing. But at some point, the system has to change.”
(23:00)

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Notable Quotes

• Nick Kwa on Growth through Video:
  “It's growth. A bunch of sort of bigger publishers and bigger shows have noticed that when they add a video element or when they also distribute it, in particular over YouTube and maybe break it out into clips for social media to get a lot more, at least traction according to the metrics.”
  (02:57)

• Nick Kwa on Podcast Identity:
  “What exactly is a podcast? Right. So for me, at least, I associate a lot of podcasts with, in part, these chatcasts... something that's closer to audio documentary or something that's closer to audio art, something that, you know, you can't really represent in a visual medium.”
  (03:36)

• Listener Stephanie's Preference for Audio-Only:
  “I'm completely refusing to listen to the video and to watch the video because I love listening to it.”
  (17:35)

• Nick Kwa on Platform Dependency:
  “It just means that podcasters as a whole is more dependent on one platform, in this case YouTube.”
  (07:03)

• Nick Kwa on the Future of Audio Podcasts:
  “I don't think it'll happen and I just think it'll just be much harder for audio only podcasts to exist and to find audiences.”
  (10:25)

• Nick Kwa's Hope for Podcasting:
  “As long as the desires are there, things can change.”
  (23:00)

---

Final Thoughts

All Of It offers a comprehensive exploration of the shifting dynamics within the podcasting world. By juxtaposing industry analysis with listener experiences, the episode provides a nuanced understanding of how video is reshaping podcast identities, accessibility, and sustainability. As the medium continues to evolve, the insights shared by Alison Stewart and Nick Kwa serve as a valuable guide for creators and consumers navigating the future of podcasting.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

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[Nick Kwa]

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[Alison Stewart]

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[Nick Kwa]

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[Joseph]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Hey, we have a special announcement about this month's get lit with all of It Book club. We are reading Lazarus Falls by Richard Price and of course it takes place in Harlem. Now we can tell you our mutual guest, straight from Washington Heights will be Lakeisha Benjamin. Lakeisha is a New York born and raised alto saxophonist who is up for two Grammys this year. She recently released a reimagined live version of her album Phoenix and I am delighted that she will be able to join us at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library, the NYPL Tuesday, January 28 for a special live performance. The event is sold out, so you already have tickets. You're in for a treat. If you don't, you can still follow along on the live Stream. Head to wnyc.org getlit for more information. If you scroll long enough on social media, you're bound to find a video of two people with headphones on, usually on a couch sitting in front of a microphone. That's because in 2024 the latest trend in audio industry was adding video. Videos can make your podcast more discoverable on social media, and many listeners seem to enjoy tuning in to their favorite podcasts. On YouTube, for example, Joe Rogan's interview with then candidate Donald Trump currently has 54 million views on the platform. But adding video can you know it privileges certain kinds of podcasts and certain kind of podcast hosts. Vulture and New York Magazine podcast critic Nick Kwa asked more than 60 people from the industry what they think about turning cameras on in the podcast studio. His recent piece on the subject is titled Will Video Kill the audio star in 2025? We'll discuss that piece and get some podcast recommendations from N Qua who joins me now. Hi Nick, how's it going? Let's go and forward. Hey listeners, we want to hear from you. Do you watch videos of podcasts? What do you like about watching videos instead of just listening? And we're also taking Your podcast recommendations 2124-3396-9221-2433 wn1sc. We wanna know what year you listening or watching these days. All Right. So let's talk about the. Why switch to video? Why have so many media companies decided that it's worth it to invest in creating video content for their podcasts?

[Nick Kwa]

Well, in a word, it's a. It's growth. A bunch of sort of bigger publishers and bigger shows have noticed that when they add a video element or when they also distribute it, in particular over YouTube and maybe break it out into clips for social media to get a lot more, at least traction according to the metrics. And so that has fueled a lot of excitement, a lot of momentum was, I would say, in terms of actually getting or leave it again, in front a lot more people and accessing more advertising dollars as a result. So that's the, you know, the primary engine that's driving a lot of this trend.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

It seems like it might defeat the purpose of podcasts that you can kind of listen to them on the go.

[Nick Kwa]

That is very true. And the thing is, is that, like, part of what's at the heart of this is kind of an identity question, like, what exactly is a podcast? Right. So for me, at least, I associate a lot of podcasts with, in part, these chatcasts, where it's a bunch of people talking or an interview show in which one person sits down with another. But I also associate it with something that's closer to audio documentary or something that's closer to audio art, something that, you know, you can't really represent in a visual medium. And for many years, the question of what forms match this ecosystem, you know, largely was an ass. Like, it was an ecosystem that could support a lot of things. But the podcast business has been in a strange place over the past couple of years, and a lot of the bigger companies were looking for avenues for growth. And now, with video being what appears to be an answer, a bit of the tension here is that the identity question is resolving itself to privilege a specific kind of show or specific kind of shows at the expense of the other kinds. And so, yes, it defeats some purpose or it defeats what I associate with parts of the podcast world, but it is. Yeah, it's a much bigger question at play here, and we can talk a little bit more about what it means for everybody going forward.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, I mean, video can favor the chat podcast if. Look at the top 20 podcasts on Apple right now. Many of them are chat podcasts, from Joe Rogan to Smartlist to Kylie Kelsey. What is it about the chat podcasts that have become so popular?

[Nick Kwa]

Well, you know, it's kind of an extension of what we've Already known. Right. So radio has been a part of our lives for a very long time. And the affordance of what podcasts at a very basic level gives you is that you can take it on a go or you can access it whenever you like. You know, compared to what? Historically, radio was limited to that, which means if you wanted to hear a show, you have to tune on on a certain time. And if you missed the first 10 minutes, then, you know, you missed the first 10 minutes. And so there's something very simple and basic there about what, how chatcasts are supported with podcasts. And so there's also, I mean, there's. It's a kind of a layer onto your life kind of argument too. It's, it's more of a lean back experience as opposed to a lean in. And I, you know, I think that's kind of matches in many ways the grand media experience that we kind of have in 2025.

[Alison Stewart]

How much is TikTok driving this? Well, at least till Sunday.

[Nick Kwa]

After which we'll go on a red note or something like that to some extent. To a large extent, actually. So when I talk to a bunch of people about what is fueling the interest, it is this notion that, you know, podcasting for a long time had struggled with a discovery problem. It was difficult for, if you were starting a show to try to get in front of more people. And, you know, visual, like the Internet, as we currently experience it, is very visual. A lot of the social media platforms, a lot of the media platforms in general are visually oriented. And so the ability to cut out clips and run it through, you know, social media algorithms, which themselves are kind of a, kind of like a slot machine. Right. You don't really know why things go viral, but things do. So there's, there's that new element for, of marketing essentially, for, for many of.

[Alison Stewart]

These shows, when you reported your piece, will video kill the audio star, what concerns did podcasters have about relying so much on YouTube to help drive traffic to their show?

[Nick Kwa]

So on a very fundamental level, it just, it means that podcasters as a whole is more dependent on one platform, in this case YouTube. So there's a larger context here that Spotify is also pushing into video. And my understanding of why that's happening is that they want kind of YouTube's juicier. But one of the sort of historical advantages of podcasting as an ecosystem is that you're not so mortally dependent on the whims of any one platform. You know, in the media business and the digital media business, As a whole has gone through many versions of this. There are many media companies that rise and fell and fell apart because they were overly dependent on one platform. And this is the risk that is opening up here with a lot of these sort of bigger podcast companies. And then there are also sort of more aesthetic and more substance based concerns. A couple of people I spoke to had sort of concerns over the gender biases or how sort of the video element or visual element of media means that only a certain kind of look, a person who looks a certain way shall, can benefit from being on screen. And that's something, you know, it's stuff like that that kind of changes the texture of who gets to, quote, unquote, win in this new economy.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Yeah, I had to ask that. What did podcast hosts tell you about turning cameras on and how it affects their work?

[Nick Kwa]

You know, you know, I, you know, I, I like to say that I like podcasts, to make podcasts, you know, when, when I can, because like, I'm a face for radio, right? Like, that's the one of the sort of textures that has been there. And the, the concern here is that, you know, if you're say, a woman, right, like you have to look a certain way in order to track or, or to, to like be. To gain traction on, on a very, on a visual social media platform or a visual media platform. Whereas, you know, men have more sort of affordances, right? Like they can be a little sloppier. There's a certain aesthetic to the man bros that host a lot of these podcasts where they don't have to be as done up. And so there are these sort of really older classical forms of gender biases that come into play now and they get accelerated to just push into video.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

And it also lasts forever if there's a video of it. I mean, I'll be honest, I got like, we had a little drama at the house. I got about four hours sleep last night. I look like I got four hours sleep last night on the air. I mean, I'm really glad there aren't cameras turned on right now. And that's. But if they were, that video would.

[Alison Stewart]

Last forever and ever and ever.

[Nick Kwa]

Absolutely. And again, if you're a dude, that's probably less of an issue, right?

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

My guest is Nick kwa, podcast critic for Vulture and New York magazine. We're discussing his recent piece, Will Video Kill the audio star in 2025. We're going to bounce into some podcast.

[Alison Stewart]

Recommendations in just a minute, so tell.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Us 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc what you are listening to or maybe one something that you like someone said shout out to One can hope Podcast sustainable eco tips and a casual listen.

[Alison Stewart]

I like the video option though because the sisters have very similar sounding voices. Oh, that's really interesting.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Do you think the we'll call it.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you think the trend to turn to video is here to stay?

[Nick Kwa]

You know, I think so, but it really depends on what you mean. Part of what, how you can read the video trend, quote unquote, is that it is merely an ingestion into like YouTube, right? Like podcasting has become a sub genre of YouTube a little bit. And so yes, it's here to stay because YouTube is here to stay. I think the sort of bigger question is, is the audio first form of podcasting here to stay as a result or will it sort of be grounded to dust as the result of all these changes? I don't think that'll happen and I just think it'll just be much harder for audio only podcasts to exist and to find audiences at sc. But you know, maybe, maybe, you know, staying small is the way to go. And I think that's a question that a lot of narrative audio first podcasters are trying to figure out at this point in time.

[Alison Stewart]

This says I'm pleasantly obsessed with the podcast. Also with video on YouTube of strange coordinates. It takes a brand and finds something interesting about it, be it how it came to be always surprising what brands mean and stand in for the landscape of capitalism. Sometimes through obscure movies that share a name or it's cult beginnings. It's surprisingly hilarious and I always look forward to the next one. That's kind of interesting. Podcasts, you know, is hard to break through. You know that there aren't too many new podcasts being released right now. Why do you think that is?

[Nick Kwa]

Well, you know, I'll sort of reframe that a little bit. There are new podcasts being made every day. It's. But it's, it's more of the first thing you just said. It's. It's harder and harder for new podcasts to break through. Especially if you're not a celebrity or you're, you're not part of a bigger or you know, operation or something like that. And this is the challenge for, you know, it's not just the challenge that's unique to podcasts. I think that's true for music. Right. Like there are new musicians every day, but because they're new musicians every day, it's harder and harder for musicians to break through. And with podcasts specifically, you know, it's harder for a specific kind of podcast. We made in particular the narrative ones that take a lot more money up front to make and have a harder time in general getting money back when they do come out. And so, yeah, it's a challenge that has been here around for a while and it feels particularly acute in 2025.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's take a call. This is Joseph, who is calling in from Greenwich. Hi, Joseph, thanks so much for calling all of it. You're on the air.

[Nick Kwa]

Hi. Yeah, thanks for having me. This is a shout out for a podcast called Hearing Things by Julie and Brad. It is the ADA awareness for hearing.

[Joseph]

Impairment living in that world. And they actually, they started the podcast about three months ago, but it has.

[Nick Kwa]

To be on video because so people can read lips and, you know, they also have it. What's the word I'm looking for?

[Joseph]

I'm a little emotional because it's actually.

[Nick Kwa]

My oldest sister, so she's pretty wonderful.

[Alison Stewart]

Joseph, thank you so much for calling in. That's a good reason to have a video podcast if you've ever heard one. Nick, let's launch into this. You said there's one that just launched in November. It's called System Crash. It's a weekly tech news show hosted by Paris Marks and Bryant Merchant. We've heard of tech podcasts before. What's interesting about this?

[Nick Kwa]

Yeah, as we drift deeper into what feels like a tech oligarchy, we're all kind of more hungry Tuesdays for reporting, discussion, analysis, texts, maybe, that really grapple critically with big tech and how it's sort of wrapped around our lives. And so the show, which is relatively new and it's a chat cast, my understanding is that there's no video component yet. It's hosted by these two tech journalists who have been sort of critically reporting on and writing about the tech world for a very long time. Paris Marks and Brian Merchant. And what's punchy and what's sticky to me at least, about the show, is that it really does interpret the latest goings on with the big tech companies through the lens of their power and their efforts to sustain that power. Very, very relevant stuff. And it feels very resonant at this point in time.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Another one that you're recommending is Question Everything, which is a new project from our friends at kcrw and it features Brian Reed, who actually got sued making his podcast. How did that lead to this podcast.

[Nick Kwa]

So he didn't get sued making this Podcast. He got sued making a previous podcast. Some longtime podcast heads might remember Brian Reed's name as the host of S Town, this remarkable show podcast that came out. Has it been about eight or seven years now. And it was this kind of basically literary, nonfiction, literary journalism to some extent about this. About a remarkable life of an unremarkable person in sort of the middle of the country. And it's a very complicated, ethically complicated in some ways show. And Reid, this project became quite popular, and his experiences kind of fed into the opening episode of the show, which Question Everything is essentially a show about journalism to some extent, but it's also a question about a show about truth and a process and a representation of truth and things like that. And coming up, it's kind of a variety show in some senses. But he is asking a lot of really interesting questions about journalism truth. And he's asking questions in a interesting way. And it's quite a remarkable show that. That I liked and I didn't really get around to until the holidays.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Let's take a listen to a clip from Question Everything.

[Joseph]

It was mid October, and we told Sam this interview with Trump could come through any moment. We needed a master list of every comment Trump has made about the media since he started running for the presidency in 2015. What Sam came back with was massive. First off, he found this spreadsheet that the US Press Freedom Tracker had put together of just tweets alone from Donald Trump about the media, which totaled well over 2,000. It was overwhelming to behold. My eyes almost glazed over, confronted with it. November 26, 2015. The failing new York Times should focus on fair and balanced reporting rather than constant hit jobs. On me. Yesterday, three boring articles today, two. August 30, 2018. I just cannot state strongly enough how totally dishonest much of the media is. Truth doesn't matter to them. They only have their hatred and agenda and on and on. So terrible. Such a disgrace. So wrong, so dirty. Just row after row after row of vitriol towards the press. And that was just the tweets.

[Alison Stewart]

To your point, he is questioning journalism.

[Nick Kwa]

Yeah. You know, in the time where everybody's questioning journalism and everybody's questioning everything, it is. Yeah. I mean, these are really tricky times for the journalism profession, and also just the process of trying to figure out if we have a shared sense of reality. And it's nice and it's really productive to hear someone very carefully express that confusion and work through it and invite you into the process of working through it. And I think that's kind of what's super sticky and super interesting about the show.

[Alison Stewart]

Talk to Stephanie from Brooklyn. Hi, Stephanie, you're on the air.

[Stephanie]

Hi. I'm really excited to be on the air. Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

Sure.

[Stephanie]

So I have been listening to Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard since It started in 2018, and I'm a huge fan and I'm always listening to the audio. And they recently started and switched to video and they're now on YouTube. And I'm completely refusing to listen to the video and to watch the video because I love listening to it. For me, it's like the place that I zone out and I like being able to picture things. And the problem with the video switch is that even though they're still on audio, they reference a lot of things that are clearly something you can see. And they try to go back. But I think people are a lot more self conscious and it's just not flowing as well. So I wish that they would just go back to audio only so people like me could keep listening and not have to sort of feel like we're missing out on something.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you. Stephanie, did you hear that in your reporting?

[Nick Kwa]

Yeah. There's actually two things baked in there that's kind of interesting. One is there was this question of like, are people actually watching the video when they put out the video podcast? And there is some mixed understanding of how the actual consumer behavior works. I myself, like, when I do throw on YouTube videos, sometimes I don't look at it, I just let it play and I kind of use it as a, kind of as a player to begin with. But you know, the other thing that's interesting here is that the act of being on camera subtly shifts your behavior in the recording. And that's something that the call there was getting towards that. One of the wonderful, amazing things about doing radio spots and doing radio interviews is that I can not have to look at the camera or be presentable for the camera. I can be in my sweatshirt, I can be in my sweatpants. I can be drinking something. I don't really have to worry about how my face looks. And it, you know, the idea is that it makes you more vulnerable. The idea makes. It means that you can really sort of focus in on what you're saying and what you're thinking, what you're feeling, as opposed to having to balance it with a camera as well. So I think that's a little bit of what's going on here. And it's definitely something that I'm starting to detect as well.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Oh, I Can tell you, many times we've had celebrities come in here and they're very glad that they're not being filmed and they stay longer and we have more intense conversations because they didn't have to get camera ready.

[Nick Kwa]

Yeah, I mean, it's. We're such a. It feels like we're so surveilled anyway to find any way to have a reprieve from being looked or at or seen. That is something that's, I believe, has been historically powerful about. About audio as a medium and what podcasts was powerful for me for. And so it's a bit of a bummer that we seem to be shifting away from that.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

I wanted to finally get to a podcast that is ending Shortcuts from the BBC is saying Goodbye. What did you love so much about this show?

[Nick Kwa]

Yeah, gosh, it's been around for like 13 years or something like that. And, you know, for most of its existence, I've largely taken it for granted because I always kind of knew that was going to be there. It's made by the BBC. It's a kind of a wonderful little British gem. It's a. For a long time it's been this repository for, I guess you could call it kind of more experimental short stories. They are often not purely one thing. Each episode generally features about three pieces. Each are somewhere around 10 minutes. And they run the gamut. They give away really broad themes. A theme could be moonlight, or the theme could be silence. And essentially it's an invitation for three different producers to interpret or find stories or make creations that kind of broadly fit the theme. But it's always, always surprising. It's always kind of this precious little gem. And I think as the BBC is cutting it, due to larger things going on at the organization, we're losing a space to find not just new forms of audio, but also new talent. I think that's the real thing that we're losing.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

We have some special news about talent. It's a fun fact. Our very own All of it producer Luke Green, had a documentary short featured on one of the last episodes of Shortcuts.

[Nick Kwa]

I loved it.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

Yeah, we listened to a clip from it. This is from the Christmas episode. And he is describing a memorable Christmas experience with his family.

[Alison Stewart]

The thing about our van is that.

[Nick Kwa]

The mechanics of the doors were also.

[Alison Stewart]

On their last legs.

[Nick Kwa]

Midway through the bridge. Out, out. It goes all the way up. The tailgate goes. And all of the trash bags of the presents fell out of the back. I don't even remember being that scared, honestly, except by Mom's scream.

[Joseph]

Mom surprises. Oh, my God.

[Nick Kwa]

I have this image, and maybe this is wrong, of the trunk flying open and everyone screaming, yes. And dad, like, swerving back and forth a bit. And then I turn and then I turn around and I see Mom's butt in the air and her head out the trunk. You did. Clinging onto the presence and going.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

That's such a good story. Congratulations. Luke, what do you. What do you think about.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, final question for you. Let me think.

[Lakeisha Benjamin]

What makes you hopeful about the future.

[Alison Stewart]

Of the podcast injury industry?

[Nick Kwa]

You know, what makes me hopeful is that even with all the vicissitudes, even of all the shifts and the difficulties and how things change, like, people want this stuff, like people want to make this stuff, and the sort of most fundamental version of anxiety is that we're inching towards a system, an ecosystem where only very few big shows get to live and only a specific kind of show gets rewarded. And it's harder, and it makes it harder for everybody else with every other kind of idea to exist. But the desire and the want is there, and the hunger for something new is always there. And so the system will reward and support one thing. But at some point, the system has to change. And I still have hope and I still have belief that as long as the desires are there, things can change.

[Alison Stewart]

Nick kwa, podcast critic for Vultr and New York Magazine, thanks for being our guest.

[Nick Kwa]

My pleasure.

[Alison Stewart]

And listeners, I want to remind you that we upload transcripts of our conversations, so if you missed anything or you want to go back and find the title of a podcast, then check out our website in about 48 hours.

[Nick Kwa]

WNYC Studios is supported by Carnegie hall.

[Alison Stewart]

Which presents The Orchestra of St. Luke's performing Leonard Bernstein's Kaddish Symphony, set to text by Samuel Pizar, commemorating the 80th.

[Nick Kwa]

Anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, January 29th. Tickets and [e-mail] do you have a.

[Joseph]

Car, truck, boat, motorcycle or RV that is no longer of use to you, no matter what shape it's in, you can donate it to WNYC even if it's 100 years old. Donating is easy, the pickup is free and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn [e-mail] Car it.