Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Arshile Gorky in New York"

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guests: Saskia Spender (President, Arshile Gorky Foundation, granddaughter), Cosima Spender (Director, "Without Gorky", granddaughter)
Aired: September 4, 2024

Overview

This episode marks the centennial of pioneering abstract expressionist Arshile Gorky’s move to New York in 1924. To coincide with a major retrospective at Hauser & Wirth gallery, Alison Stewart talks to Gorky’s granddaughters, Saskia and Cosima Spender. The discussion explores Gorky’s life as a refugee and self-taught immigrant artist, the new discoveries about his work, his influence on the New York art scene, and the generational impact of his legacy. The episode also delves into a documentary screening and Gorky's enduring presence in family memory and the broader art world.

Key Topics and Insights

1. Arshile Gorky's Arrival in New York & Identity Transformation

• Why Gorky moved to New York:
  Fleeing the Armenian Genocide, Gorky arrived as a refugee in 1919, living in Massachusetts before coming to New York to pursue art and invent a new identity.

• Quote:
  "He really needed to divest himself of his patri lineage and his family and really be his own person. And so he came to New York City, because which better place to start your life as an artist?"
  — Saskia Spender (02:29)

• Significance of Name Change:
  The move was both physical and symbolic—an opportunity for self-creation.

2. Early Artistic Life & The New York Scene

• Studio Environment:
  Gorky’s Union and Washington Square studios were minimal, aesthetic, and open—reflecting his obsession with cleanliness and focus on work.

  • "There was a vibrant community of immigrants. He hung out with John Graham, Stuart Davis, de Kooning, Rothko... it was a very, very vibrant community."
    — Cosima Spender (03:39)

• Influences & Artistic Process:
  He was self-taught, drawing from Met visits and copying masters like Uccello, Grunewald, Picasso, with inspirations from city textures.

  • "He really developed his personal iconography... and he really chose people from all eras and all parts of the world."
    — Saskia Spender (05:09)

3. Developing a Unique Artistic Voice

• Artistic Vision:
  Gorky’s oeuvre reflected a tension between mastery of line and freedom from it, echoing his journey from tradition to personal expression.

  • "The first half is really about the mastery of the line, and then the second half is really his emancipation from the line."
    — Saskia Spender (05:09)

• Personal Iconography:
  Recurring motifs, drawn repeatedly, signified both economic (paper is cheaper than canvas) and aesthetic choices during periods of hardship.

4. Gorky’s World in Context

• Mapping Gorky's New York:
  The family’s exhibition includes a digital map of Gorky’s favorite galleries and haunts, illustrating the city’s changing art landscape.

  • "You can see the city change as well as all the artists who live in New York at that time."
    — Saskia Spender (08:47)

• WPA Public Art:
  Listeners heard about the rediscovery of Gorky’s WPA aviation murals in New Jersey, emphasizing his legacy in public art and the challenges of preserving it.

5. Discovery of "Untitled (Virginia Summer)"

• Accidental Discovery:
  A newly discovered painting, hidden under another work, came to light during conservation—a rare, complete image tied to known drawings.

  • "Underneath we saw this complete image with all its associated... It was really a wonderful, wonderful moment."
    — Saskia Spender (14:36)

• “Doubles” in Gorky's Practice:
  Letters posthumously referenced paintings layered atop each other, possibly for pragmatic or creative reasons, now illuminated by the find.

6. The Documentary "Without Gorky"

• Family Perspective:
  Cosima describes the film as tracing three generations living with (and without) Gorky, threading art, myth, intergenerational trauma, and healing.

  • "It's a home movie about our grandfather... because unfortunately, he ended his own life when our mother was five and our aunt was three."
    — Cosima Spender (17:40)

• Art as Legacy and Healing:
  Visiting Gorky’s birthplace was profound for the family, highlighting the impact of his trauma, mythmaking, and artistic memory.

  • "None of us in the family had gone there to visit it. And we finally went there. It was so beautiful. And to know that this is what he had witnessed before terrible genocide... was very healing for the family."
    — Cosima Spender (20:40)

7. Listener Questions and Gorky's Themes

• Portraits of His Mother:
  Two pivotal self-portraits with his mother are discussed, their repetition and layering interpreted as reflecting memory, trauma, and the impossibility of fixed meaning.

  • "It's hard to ascribe meaning or even to look for meaning. We just have to accept that some things might be inexplicable. And in art... what he was inviting was a form of engagement that slows time down."
    — Saskia Spender (23:11)

• Teaching at Grand Central School of Art:
  Gorky’s legacy as a teacher is remembered fondly—his students often became collectors.

8. Centennial Commemoration

• Coordinated Celebrations:
  MoMA, The Met, and other institutions join Hauser & Wirth in displaying Gorky’s works and retracing his city journey (from October 4, 2024, onward).

9. Recommendations and Reflection

• Favorite Works:

  • Cosima enjoys the contrast between Gorky’s 1930s and 40s works.
  • Saskia highlights “Agony” (charcoal and oil on paper, washed in the bathtub for effect):
    "You see the paper disintegrating and pilling and he's used the erasers to make a kind of line. It's really a wonderful work." (25:48)

• Experiencing Gorky’s Art:
  Guests and host celebrate the depth, layers, and sensory vertigo Gorky’s paintings evoke.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "He really needed to divest himself of his patri lineage and his family and really be his own person." — Saskia Spender (02:29)
• "He was obsessed with cleanliness. It was a very aesthetic studio, very simple, very open space with just a table and a large easel." — Cosima Spender (03:39)
• "His idea of being an artist was a very personal thing... his ultimate thing is such an individual thing of a person alone in the city, where he was able to be free." — Saskia Spender (05:09)
• "You see the paper disintegrating and pilling and he's used the erasers to make a kind of line. It's really a wonderful work." — Saskia Spender on "Agony" (25:48)
• "That sort of vertigo of not being able to pin down the meaning and just letting the different images wash over you is exactly what he was looking for." — Saskia Spender (26:24)
• "It's a home movie about our grandfather... and through making it we got to understand more where he used to hang out or how our grandmother met him and what the atmosphere was like and those times, but also the difficulties of those times because he was penniless, they were living in a cramped studio..." — Cosima Spender (17:40)

Timeline & Timestamps

• 02:29 – Gorky’s migration and name change
• 03:39 – His studio environment and artistic community
• 05:09 – Self-taught artistry and iconography
• 08:47 – Mapping Gorky’s New York
• 10:34 – Rediscovery of WPA murals in New Jersey
• 13:42 – His process of drawing and layering
• 14:36 – Discovery of “Untitled (Virginia Summer)”
• 17:40 – The documentary "Without Gorky" and family reflections
• 23:11 – Significance of Gorky’s portraits with mother
• 24:03 – Teaching at Grand Central School of Art
• 24:48 – Centennial exhibits at MoMA, The Met, and elsewhere
• 25:48 – Favorite works and interpretive advice

Conclusion

This episode provides a layered, intimate portrait of Arshile Gorky: as immigrant, innovator, mythmaker, and family patriarch marked by trauma and resilience. Through historical context, new discoveries, and personal reflection, listeners are invited to engage with his art as a living, evolving experience. The centennial exhibition and related events open a window into Gorky's ongoing influence on the cultural fabric of New York—and invite all to look, feel, and reflect anew.

Explore "Arshile Gorky: New York City" at Hauser & Wirth through November 2, 2024, and watch for related programming at MoMA, The Met, and other institutions.