Podcast Summary:

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Episode: As We Say Goodbye to the Penny, a Look Back at the History of Money
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: David McWilliams (Economist and Author of The History of Money: A Story of Humanity)
Date: December 11, 2025

Overview

This episode centers on the imminent disappearance of the U.S. penny, using it as a springboard to explore the deep and complex history of money. Host Alison Stewart interviews renowned economist David McWilliams, whose book surveys the evolution of currency from ancient tally sticks to cryptocurrency. The conversation ranges widely across civilizations, technological innovations, revolutions, and the present and future of how we understand, use, and value money.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Money as Social Technology and Human Progress

• Money's Origins:
  • Money did not simply arise as a medium of exchange; it is an “extraordinary social technology” invented as societies became more complex and sedentary.
  • Early forms of recorded value, like tally sticks (early “blockchains”), date back 20,000 years in Africa, but familiar currency emerged in Sumer (current southern Iraq, ~3,000 BCE).
  • (02:16, David McWilliams):

    “Money is an extraordinary social technology that humans invented while or during the period that we were becoming sedentary, domesticated, and beginning to be faced with much more complex issues day to day.”

2. The Greek Innovation: First Monetized Society

• Impact on Civilization:
  • The Greeks' adoption of silver coins transformed them into the first truly monetized society.
  • This shift, McWilliams argues, catalyzed not only economic but also intellectual, artistic, and political innovations: democracy, philosophy, logic, and republicanism.
  • (04:46):

    “Could that have been the impetus for the Greeks beginning to think the way they think or they thought? Did money have any impact on the Greek mind? And I think it did. I believe it did.”

  • Money enabled a numerical, precise, proof-seeking society, encouraging science over superstition.

3. Money, Status, and Settled Societies

• Wealth as Symbol:
  • Nomadic peoples couldn’t “carry” wealth, so the concept of money as status and power only emerged with the advent of settled, agricultural life.
  • McWilliams introduces an anthropological perspective:
    • Early hunter-gatherers’ foundational technology was fire (“pyrophyte species”).
    • Modern settled societies are “plutophyte” (from the Greek ‘pluto’ for money)—defined by their adaptation to and by money.
  • (07:22):

    “We have become a Pluto fight species. And that... is constantly adapting to and being adapted by our relationship with another technology... money.”

4. Finance Innovation: The Power of Zero

• Arab and Persian Advances:

  • Arab cultures leapt ahead by adopting the concept of zero (from India via Persia), enabling sophisticated math and accounting.

  • This gave Arab traders advantages in commerce, complex transactions, and mental arithmetic, seen by Europeans as “Saracen magic.”

  • Zero enabled double entry bookkeeping, balance sheets, and algebra—all foundational for modern trade and business.

  • (09:28, David McWilliams):

    “The Arabs introduced zero into Europe via the island that is Sicily... What happened was the Arabs got zero from the Persians... The Indians were using zero.”

  • (12:08):

    “You can begin to understand fundamental balance sheets, number one, double entry bookkeeping, number two, basic accounting, number three. All these things are the software of commerce.”

  • The spread of these ideas was central to Europe’s Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment.

5. The American Revolution and the Strength of Stable Currency

• The Continental & Hamilton:
  • The Continental, America’s early revolutionary currency, hyperinflated and “wasn’t worth a continental.”
  • Hamilton’s transformation:
    • Stabilizing post-revolution currency became key to the Republic’s survival, culminating in the Coinage Act of 1793 (creation of the dollar).
    • The metric structure (dollars/100 cents) was a conscious break from British denominations.
  • (14:14):

    “When the American Revolution happened, the British took all their money out... So there was no money for the colonists... so they printed these Continentals... it gradually, but then very rapidly... became subsumed by hyperinflation.”

  • (15:16):

    “All revolutions need revolutionaries, but all revolutions need stabilizers... that major stabilizer... was Hamilton.”

6. The Penny’s Obsolescence

• Metric Currency as a Statement:
  • The U.S. purposely dropped the “penny” as a British term and the old imperial system as a revolutionary act.
• Debasement and Digital Trends:
  • Currencies’ value relative to gold has declined steadily since the end of Bretton Woods (1972), making small denominations like the penny nearly worthless.
  • The transition to a cashless, digital economy further diminishes the practicality of coins.
  • (17:52, David McWilliams):

    “All currencies... over time, the lowest denomination, i.e. the penny itself, becomes increasingly worthless as a piece of coinage... But also... gradual debasement of the currency is reducing the value of the tiniest little coin, which is kind of a shame because it's... more of a bit of history now than anything else.”

7. Crypto: Hype, Power, and Public Good

• A Public Good vs. Private Tokens:
  • McWilliams is adamant: cryptocurrency is “the biggest scam ever foisted on the American public.”
  • Money, he argues, is a public good, underpinned by the state’s tax power; its regulation is a cornerstone of national stability and global “soft power.”
  • He sees crypto as a speculative playground for the wealthy and “tech bros”:
    • Privatizes public money.
    • Is no longer antagonistic to Wall Street (their worlds have merged).
    • Lobbies to undermine American soft power.
  • Crypto, he says, is a “solution looking for a problem”:
  • (20:46, David McWilliams):

    “It's the biggest scam ever foisted on the American public... Money is a public good... The essential promise of crypto is that we will replace public money like the US Dollar with, with private money tokens that are made up by tech Bros. And creatures like that... Crypto is a large lobby group on behalf of very wealthy people, of exchanges that take a clip every time it's used, and of tech bros.”

  • (23:30):

    “Crypto is a solution looking for a problem, rather than a problem looking for a solution.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the transformative power of money:

  "Money is an extraordinary social technology that humans invented... It motivates us to strive, achieve, invent and take risks. Money also brings out humanity's darker side, invoking greed, envy, hatred, violence, and, of course, colonialism. Money is complex because humans are complex."
  (00:53, Alison Stewart quoting McWilliams)

• On money and the Greek mind:

  "When you have coins in particular... what you're doing is you're becoming a numerical society, a precise society... that begins to look for proof... begins to turn its back on superstition, begins to look towards science. This is very rudimentary stuff, very basic stuff."
  (05:43, David McWilliams)

• On the penny's end:

  "Over time, what you're finding is the gradual debasement of... the currency is reducing the value of the tiniest little coin, which is kind of a shame because it's... more of a bit of history now than anything else."
  (19:02, David McWilliams)

• On crypto:

  “Crypto is a bet on Armageddon... the idea that crypto will replace finance, replace currencies, replace the United States dollar is to me a rather malignant dream thought up by those people who believe in a sort of an Armageddonist world."
  (22:53, David McWilliams)

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Theme | |----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:53 | Introduction of David McWilliams and the history of money | | 02:16 | Money as an invented “social technology” | | 04:46 | The Greek leap: money, innovation, democracy | | 07:22 | Money, status, and settled societies | | 09:28 | Arab invention of finance: the power of zero | | 12:08 | Zero, accounting, and the rise of commerce | | 14:14 | The Continental, Hamilton, and post-revolution currency in the U.S. | | 17:52 | The penny’s decline, metric currency, and cashless future | | 20:46 | Crypto critique and money as a public good | | 23:30 | Crypto as “solution looking for a problem” | | 24:33 | Conclusion and thanks |

Conclusion

This episode uses the farewell to the U.S. penny as a lens to trace the intertwined evolution of money and civilization. David McWilliams demystifies the core functions and meanings of money throughout history, emphasizing the dangers of viewing it as merely an economic artifact. Instead, money’s role as an enabling social technology—and occasionally as a source of societal trouble—runs deep in the human story. The discussion highlights revolutions (ancient and modern), bold innovations, and the folly of uncritical techno-fixes like crypto. As the penny disappears, listeners are invited to reflect on the multifaceted history and future of what we value.

For further details, listen to the full episode or find McWilliams’ book The History of Money: A Story of Humanity.