Audra McDonald and Joy Woods Star in "Gypsy"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "All Of It" – Episode Featuring Audra McDonald and Joy Woods in "Gypsy"

Released on June 6, 2025, "All Of It" is a WNYC show that delves into culture and its consumers, engaging with thinkers, creators, and cultural icons to explore the what and why of their work. In this episode, host Alison Stewart sits down with Tony-nominated actors Audra McDonald and Joy Woods to discuss their roles in the acclaimed Broadway revival of "Gypsy."

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Celebrating Broadway's Tony Nominees

[00:56] Alison Stewart opens the episode by highlighting the excitement surrounding the Tony Awards, mentioning that 29 plays and musicals are up for awards out of 42 eligible shows. She sets the stage for an hour dedicated to musicals, introducing listeners to the upcoming segments featuring Darren Criss and Helen J. Shen from the Tony-nominated musical "maybe Happy Ending," and a preview of live performances from the cast of "Real Women Have Curves."

"This hour, it's all about musicals," Alison Stewart announces, emphasizing the focus on Audra McDonald and Joy Woods's performances in "Gypsy."

Introduction to "Gypsy" and Its Significance

[02:19] Joy Woods provides an overview of "Gypsy," describing it as a retelling of the true story of a "momager" striving for stardom for her daughters. She notes that the revival is nominated for five Tony Awards, including acting nods for both McDonald and Woods.

"Gypsy, based on the true story of a momager who wants stardom for her two daughters, is back on Broadway," Joy Woods explains.

[02:19] She highlights Audra McDonald's record-breaking 11th Tony nomination, making her the most nominated performer in Tony history. McDonald portrays Rose, a determined mother during the Great Depression, while Woods plays her daughter Louise, who discovers her passion for exotic dancing.

Audra McDonald's Journey to Playing Rose

[03:43] Alison Stewart begins her conversation by asking Audra McDonald how she came to embody the character of Mama Rose.

[03:43] Audra McDonald shares a heartfelt story about her late friend Gavin Creel, who encouraged her to take on the role of Rose as a black woman.

"He just had a vision and was just absolutely determined, and that's what kind of got the ball rolling," McDonald recounts.

She discusses the eight-year journey to bring this vision to life, including conversations with the estates and securing director George's involvement. McDonald's dedication underscores the significance of diverse casting in reviving a classic musical.

Balancing Multiple Roles: Joy Woods on "Gypsy" and "The Notebook"

[05:07] Joy Woods talks about the challenges of juggling rehearsals for "Gypsy" during the day and another show at night. She emphasizes the physical and mental demands of performing in two productions simultaneously.

"Finding the similarities between the two and then trying to separate them as individual people," Woods explains, referring to her characters Allie and Louise.

She reflects on the personal growth required to navigate these roles, highlighting the importance of self-care amidst the hectic schedule.

Audra McDonald's Reflections on Character Perception

[06:04] Joy Woods brings up a compelling moment Audra McDonald shared on Instagram regarding audience perceptions of Mama Rose.

[06:21] Audra McDonald recounts an interaction where an audience member expressed disliking Rose. She initially felt defensive but later drew wisdom from her mentor Zoe Caldwell.

"The point is not for the audience to like Rose. She's meant to understand why she does what she does," McDonald reflects.

McDonald discusses the importance of portraying complex characters authentically, even if it means they aren't universally liked. She likens Rose to classic Shakespearean characters like Macbeth and Lear, who are understood for their motivations despite their flaws.

Joy Woods on Portraying Louise's Character Development

[09:45] Joy Woods delves into the character of Louise, emphasizing her journey from seeking inclusion in her mother's dreams to finding her own identity.

"She's just her wishing to be included in other people's dreams," Woods explains, detailing Louise's evolution throughout the show.

Woods explores the nuances of her performance, balancing internal dialogue with outward expression, and how her character's growth mirrors the physical and emotional changes of adolescence.

The Impact of Diverse Casting in "Gypsy"

[11:23] Joy Woods and Audra McDonald discuss the significance of having black leads in "Gypsy." McDonald shares specific decisions she made to portray Rose authentically as a black woman.

"Rose seizes upon that opportunity...she decides to make the act look like an all-white act," McDonald explains, highlighting the tough choices Rose makes to advance her daughters' careers in a racially segregated entertainment industry.

She elaborates on the strategic alterations Rose implements to navigate the restrictive Orpheum Circuit, such as changing the racial composition of the act to appeal to mainstream audiences.

Behind the Scenes: Rehearsals and the Book of "Gypsy"

[16:07] Joy Woods discusses the duality of her performance, balancing her onstage presence with her character's internal growth.

[17:33] Audra McDonald provides insight into the show's book, praising its seamless integration of dialogue and music. She recounts their first day of rehearsal, where the cast read the script without music to appreciate the strength of the storytelling.

"It's seamless the way the dialogue goes into these songs," McDonald praises the collaboration between playwright Arthur Lawrence and composer Stephen Sondheim.

She emphasizes the lean nature of the script, which demands precise and meaningful performances from the actors.

Closing Remarks and What's Next

[20:26] Alison Stewart concludes the segment with a teaser for the next part of the episode, introducing "maybe Happy Ending" and setting the stage for upcoming interviews and performances.

"So that's what I would say. But then if you wanted to look just at the scenes, were to look just at the scenes, were to look just at the scenes..." McDonald continues to praise the show's intricate writing, highlighting the deep collaboration that makes "Gypsy" a standout production.

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Upcoming Segments:

• "maybe Happy Ending": A discussion with Darren Criss and Helen J. Shen about their roles as robots in the Tony-nominated musical.
• Live Performances and Conversations: Featuring the cast of "Real Women Have Curves" and composers Joy Huerta and Benjamin Velez.

Stay tuned to "All Of It" with Alison Stewart weekdays from 12:00 - 2:00 PM on WNYC for more in-depth conversations and cultural insights.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the discussions surrounding the Broadway revival of "Gypsy," the actors' portrayals, and the broader cultural implications of the production.

Transcript

[Audra McDonald]

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[Joy Woods]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I hi, I'm Alison Stewart. On today's show we are celebrating our Tony nominated guests from this Broadway season. The awards are on Sunday night with 29 plays and musicals up for awards out of 42 shows that were eligible. This hour, it's all about musicals. Later, you'll hear from Darren Criss and Helen J. Shen about how they transformed into robots for the Tony nominated musical maybe Happy Ending. And stick with us till the end of the hour to hear special live performances from the cast of Real Women have Curves along with a conversation with the Tony nominated composers Joy Huerta and Benjamin Velez. But first, let's get this started with Gypsy.

[Audra McDonald]

I had a dream A dream about you Baby it's gonna come true baby they think that we're But Baby youl'll Be great Gonna have the whole world on my Plate.

[Joy Woods]

Gypsy, based on the true story of a momager who wants stardom for her two daughters, is back on Broadway. It's also nominated for five Tony Awards. That includes nominations for the two stars of the show and my next guests, Audra McDonald and Joy Woods. It is Audra McDonald's 11th nomination, making her the most nominated in Tony's history. Audra plays Rose. She's tough as nails with dreams of getting her girls on the biggest stages during the Great Depression. Joy plays her sweet daughter Louise, who stays in the background until she discovers that exotic dancing is her way to becoming one of the biggest burlesque stars of her day. That's what Rose wants, right? Gypsy is filled with classics from Together, Wherever We Go, Roses Turn and Let me Entertain you. Gypsy has been on Broadway five times, but this time with black actors in the lead roles. And it adds a whole New layer to the script. Earlier this week, Gypsy was awarded the Drama Desk Award for best revival of a musical. And Audra McDonald won for outstanding lead performance in a musical. I began my conversation with Audra and Joy by asking Audra how the part of Mama Rose came to her.

[Audra McDonald]

Well, it first came to me, not in any official capacity, but a friend of mine, late Gavin Creel, who just passed away this fall, very dear friend of mine, was over at our house for Thanksgiving about eight years ago. And after Thanksgiving, when he walked in, he said, honey, I want to talk to you about something. And then after dinner, he dragged me into my garage and he's like, honey, okay, Chris, I talked about, I think you need to play Rose and Gypsy. I think you need to do it. You just need to do it. It should be a black woman. It should be a black woman. It should be you. You need to do it. You need to do it. And he just was. He just had had a vision and was just absolutely determined, and that's what kind of got the ball rolling. And then conversations began shortly after that with the Escape states to make sure that they were interested, and they were. And Stephen Sondheim was alive at the time, and he said, I think that's a brilliant idea. And then it took a while to figure out who the right person to direct it was. And I knew in my heart that it needed to be George. And the estates agreed. And that took eight years, but here we are.

[Joy Woods]

Gavin was such a sweetheart.

[Audra McDonald]

Yes, he was.

[Joy Woods]

Joy, you were working on the Notebook when you realized that this was going to be you, your job, you win, you win the audition. What was it like to work between the two shows?

I think the most difficult thing during that time, rehearsing the show during the day and doing the other at night, probably was just getting enough sleep to show up and be present for both. But it was, it was definitely the first few phases of that process was finding the similarities between the two and then trying to separate them as individual people. Allie and Louise, because they're both young women that have a moment in the show where they have a self actualization moment and come into their adulthood or just personhood. And. And yeah, it was very interesting to go from one chapter of your life to the next in such a way. And, you know, sleep and eating and water are important. So definitely the main thing.

Audra, I follow you on Instagram and you had this great speech that you gave for. It could be for anybody, but I think it was for women mostly about not necessarily being liked Would you share a little bit about that? I was going to get this later, but this is just too good.

[Audra McDonald]

Yeah, no, I had, I had some people come to see the show the night before, and it was a group of people and they were, we had them in the front couple of rows of the audience after the show and they wanted to chat about it. And one of them said, you know, my husband just didn't. He just, he said, he just, I don't really like her. I don't really like this character. And in the moment I said, yeah, well, you know, that's, that's valid, you know, but Rose is who she is. And what I was saying on Instagram, the reason I felt compelled to talk about it was not to shame the person who made the comment, because it's a perfectly valid comment. It's not the first time I've heard that comment either. But it was more about what happened to me in that moment and in the hours following. When I went home in the moment I thought I immediately defended her and just said, well, she is who she is. And when I went home that night, I, I started thinking, wow, I'm glad I'm not 25 year old Audra. Because 25 year old Audra would have totally been like, oh God, what am I doing wrong? How I got to make her more likable. I got to make her more likable. How do I make her more likable? And because of the fact that I had the incredible opportunity of working with Zoe Caldwell years and years ago in the play masterclass, and she became a mentor and a friend, a very, very dear person, important person in my life. And she had come to see me do Marie Christine, which was a musical version of Madea written by Michael John Lachiusa and of course the great Phil Caldwell, who had won four Tony Awards and was one of the greatest Medea's of our time, Great classical actress, Shakespearean actress. She came because I asked her to come early in the previews and she came backstage afterwards and after being very lovely, shut the door and stuck her finger in my face and said, stop trying to make the audience like you. And it was a huge, huge, huge lesson for me. She said, the point is not for the audience to like Nadia, it was for them to understand why she does what she has to do. And so I wanted to relay that, you know, you know, meshed in this lesson with what had happened a couple nights ago at Gypsy. You're not meant to like Rose. You're meant to understand why she does what she does. And it's interesting. I'm not going to go there, but I. In sort of way, I will go there. You don't ever hear people saying, gosh, I just don't like Macbeth. You know, King Lear, he's just an unlikable character. Because honestly, you know, given that it's a patriarch, I mean, we're not. It's not. It's not supposed to be a problem if you don't like male characters. Like, well, they're just doing what they have to do, But God forbid it be a woman, you know, and all of a sudden it's like, well, I just don't like her. She's not smiling enough or whatever. It's like, neither did Macbeth. Neither did Lear, neither, you know, did Richard iii. You know, half of these people, you know, and we learn about ourselves as human beings. We learn about our own humanity through all types of behavior that are shown to us on stage. That is the point. The Greeks got it right. The Greeks knew. This is how you're going to get this out so you don't end up doing all these horrible things. You're going to learn about who you are on the inside. And it's our jobs as actors to understand who these characters are, defend them to the hilt, and play the role.

[Joy Woods]

Joy, when we meet Louise, what do you think is important to her?

Keeping peace, keeping the kids in check when mama isn't around. I think when we meet Louise at my age, it's just before her birthday, and then we see her on her birthday, and they ask her to make a wish and blow out candles. And I have a very specific picture of what I imagine in my mind when I go to blow out those candles and what I want from that day. Just one specific thing. And I think the rest of the show, she's trying to get that picture. It's like, you know, your kid. A kid wants to be an astronaut someday, and it's so far away and it seems so out of reach, but they still wish for it. And in Louise's mind, it's just mama standing behind her, showing her what her dreams are and Louise being included in that. And it's sort of just her wishing to be included in other people's dreams. So I think that's where we meet her, and that's where we see her fight for and then slowly release the need for that to be happy in the show. That's sort of coming into herself that I think Louise goes through.

So, Aja, there's a whole other layer to this show with the leads being black. It's incredible actually, because as you really start to think about what it means for Rose, it means for her to take care of her children during this period. What is a decision that you made for your character, that you made for her, considering that this Rose is a black woman.

[Audra McDonald]

She makes? Well, there's so many different decisions. I can, I can, I'll, I'll speak to two of the decisions that she makes. One is a decision I think, made out of incredible sort of luck, kismet, convenience, whatever you want to call it. She meets Herbie, you know, and is like she, she. I don't think she. We play in the show that by the time we get to this particular theater where Mr. Webber, she keeps sort of hounding the theater owner there and he's just trying to get her out of his face. I don't think she thinks she's going to be very successful with that, but she's going to keep trying because she doesn't have an off button. So she knows she's going to keep trying, keep trying. But then Herbie comes into the picture and she sees that he has, he has. She sees that he sees her. That's the first thing. Mr. Weber doesn't see her. That's just. He sees a tornado, a black tornado. He's got to get out of the way and try not to have an altercation. Herbie sees Rose and because he sees her, Rose seizes upon that opportunity. Right, right. And she's taken aback by the fact that he sees her and still wants to be in her presence, even though she is a black woman, which makes her think, huh, what's, what's that, that all about? And I see you seeing me, I'm gonna grab on in whatever way I can. So that's one decision that she makes as a black woman, you know, seeing that she's being recognized. Another one, which is very, very harsh is what she chooses to do with the little black boys in when they start to grow up, that she decides to make the act look like an all white act. Up until that point, you don't see, you don't see where they're performing really, because then we just have June in the front who's this very, very light skinned black girl who could pass as white and these little black boys behind them. And that was not all that unusual. And you know, in different places and vaudeville theaters that they could have performed. Not only Orpheum Circuit, because you see, they're not on the Orpheum Circuit yet Herbie comes into the picture, and those kids start to grow up. And Rose realizes that if she can make the act look more, quote.

[Joy Woods]

The.

[Audra McDonald]

Radio, trying to give air quotes. But quotes we got you palatable to a mainstream audience. Get her on the Orpheum circuit. She's got to switch it up. And so, because there's. There's only. There was only one Bert Williams. There was only one Ada Overton Walker. There were very few opportunities for black people to actually get on the Orpheum circuit. Usually it was just one act. Her shit, whatever. So. So the very harsh choice that she makes to yank those black boys out of the show and replace them with white boys and basically step over into. These are all white kids. All American white kids. You know, I've got my little white girl. Quotes, quotes again. Dressed up as the Statue of Liberties, you know, belting hide seas. And I've got one kid that looks like, you know, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. No, not fdr. The other one, Theodore Roosevelt. You got one looking like Abraham Lincoln. And I and George Washington. I'd done before with my little black boys when they thought that was cute when they're growing up. So I got to make them all white. So now and then the other harsh thing she does is she takes Louise, pulls her out of the act, and puts her in the rear of a cow. So she's now hidden. So this is now, for all intents and purposes, a white act. And then what's the first thing that we see happen to them after it becomes a white act? They get on the Orpheum Circle. So those are harsh, harsh choices that Rose has made that she felt she needed to make again in her mind, all for her kids.

[Joy Woods]

Louise in the first half of the show has got, like, sort of takes backstage. She's not a showstopper like June. But in the second half, Joy, you are a bombshell. You come out. First of all, how do you hide your talents in the first half of the show?

I think the show was written well enough where it isn't something that I have to hide. I think there's a distinct difference between singing as an internal dialogue, singing out Louise, singing out into the real world. So I think the material does a great job at distinguishing between the two and what is what. And the same goes for the dancing, what's happening in her head versus what's happening in real life. And I guess that means I just am able to use a little less technique, I guess, and try a little harder to send a message that she's finding her bearings and getting into her body. Because these kids are growing up, they're going through puberty.

[Audra McDonald]

Sure.

[Joy Woods]

They're probably having growing pains, their bones hurt, they don't know how to use their limbs. And I'm pretty sure that Louise is no exception to that. So that's more so of what is played into when she's growing up and coming into herself.

Yeah. Audra, I wanted to ask you about the book because this is often called the great book for musicals. What is something that you as an actor would understand about the book? Why it's considered a great book that we non musical people wouldn't necessarily understand?

[Audra McDonald]

I think I can best answer that by telling you what we did on the first day of rehearsal.

[Joy Woods]

Sure.

[Audra McDonald]

On the first day of rehearsal, we were all gathered and after we did all the introductions and whatnot, George sat us all down, big tables where we were all facing each other and he said, okay, we're going to read this, but without music. But we're not skipping any of the lyrics when we get to the songs. You're still reading it. Read the lyrics. And so we read the whole thing tip to toe, as if it were only a play. And Joy, what do you. I mean it.

[Joy Woods]

We could have put that thing up that day.

[Audra McDonald]

It is seamless. It is seamless the way the dialogue goes into these songs. And that's what's so brilliant about the book. I mean, it's almost. I mean, except for the fact that it's these legends of being Arthur Lawrence and Steve Sondheim and Julie Stein, you almost cannot even see the connective tissue. And a lot of when they are singing in the show, they are actually singing in real life. That's also what makes it so wonderful. So that's what I would say. But then if you wanted to look just at the scenes, were to look just at the scenes, the stuff that is not sung, it's very lean. This is a lean, lean machine as far as a book is concerned. So you are given very little dialogue and very little time and amount of lines in which to convey an emotion, to get to a thought, to have an idea, to react to something that has happened. Arthur Lawrence has made this very, very, very, very lean. Which means there's not a lot of time for, I guess, doing obnoxious actory things. You got to get to it. Get to it. Yeah. The amount of time that Rose and Herbie meet and find that they have an attraction and mutual interest, all of that is two pages at the most. It's so quick, interesting and and and also because the right the writing is so beautiful. They've done all the work for you. You know, it's that great Terrence McNally line of follow the composer. The composer is God, you know. Single playwright, you know, can apply in many ways. The work has been done for you. It really has.

[Joy Woods]

That was my conversation with Tony nominated actors Audra McDonald and Joy Woods. They star as Rose and Louise in the current revival of Gypsy. Up next, the brand new musical maybe Happy Ending, has been capturing the hearts of theatergoers with its charming love story between two robots. Stars Darren Criss and Helen J. Shen discuss the show next.

[Alison Stewart]

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