Becoming Eve' Explores the Life of a Trans Rabbi

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Becoming Eve' Explores the Life of a Trans Rabbi"

Release Date: April 22, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart, WNYC
Guests: Rabbi Abby Hava Stein and Actor Tommy Dorfman

---

Introduction to "Becoming Eve"

In this poignant episode of All Of It, hosted by Alison Stewart, the spotlight is on "Becoming Eve", a play adapted from Rabbi Abby Hava Stein's memoir. The play delves into the intricate journey of a trans woman raised in a prominent Hasidic family in Williamsburg, exploring themes of identity, faith, and transformation.

Overview of the Play

"Becoming Eve" narrates the life of Rabbi Abby Hava Stein, portrayed by Tommy Dorfman, as she prepares to reveal her transition to her family. The play uniquely incorporates puppetry to represent younger versions of Hava, adding a layered depth to the storytelling. Premiering at the Abrams Art Center, the production has garnered critical acclaim, including nominations for three Drama League awards.

Rabbi Abby Hava Stein's Journey

Rabbi Stein shares insights into her upbringing within the Hasidic community, where expectations were rigidly defined from birth. As she recounts, [09:08] she states, "Everything was written out... from the minute you were born till after your funeral." This strict framework left little room for personal exploration outside prescribed religious and cultural norms.

Rabbi Stein emphasizes the nuanced portrayal of her experiences, aiming to highlight both the challenges and the inherent beauty within her community. [02:04] She remarks, "There’s a lot of intense conversations to be had. There’s a lot of depth in the Jewish texts around gender and sexuality."

Adapting the Memoir into a Play

The adaptation process was initiated by producers Brian and Dana Lee, who recognized the profound narrative of Rabbi Stein's memoir. Despite Rabbi Stein's initial limited knowledge of the theater industry, her collaboration with the producers led to a faithful and respectful adaptation. [04:20] She notes, "We won’t always agree, but our varied perspectives and diversity of experience is what makes New York City great."

Tommy Dorfman's Role and Experience

Tommy Dorfman, the actor bringing Hava to life on stage, discusses his deep connection to the character and the transformative experience of working on "Becoming Eve." [04:27] Dorfman shares, "I read the script and I fell in love with Emile's writing and poetry... It felt like a really unique opportunity."

Transitioning from a large Broadway production to an intimate play required Dorfman to adapt his performance style. [05:45] He explains, "It offers the intimacy of Circle in the Square... It feels less intimate, actually. But there is something quite cinematic about Tynes directing in particular."

The Art of Puppetry in "Becoming Eve"

A distinctive feature of "Becoming Eve" is its use of puppetry to represent Hava at various stages of her life. This creative choice serves as a visual metaphor for memory and transformation. [11:13] Rabbi Stein describes the puppets as extensions of her, allowing her to engage with her past without direct self-representation. [14:44] She states, "There is still a lot of growing in and... the puppets allow memory to enter the present day space."

Dorfman elaborates on the technical and emotional aspects of performing alongside puppets, highlighting the collaborative effort required to synchronize movements and emotions. [14:44] He shares, "We have to... sometimes there's four or five of us moving as one organism."

Personal Reflections and Impact

Rabbi Stein reflects on how the play has influenced her personal journey, particularly in reconciling her past with her present identity. [08:21] She shares, "Watching it has been so helpful in my own life... I think I've become comfortable with this. It's not really me. This is puppets."

The integration of puppetry has provided a therapeutic avenue for Rabbi Stein, allowing her to visually and emotionally process her transition and the memories associated with it. [19:01] She mentions, "It's been so liberating and beautiful... the puppet represents a part of me that I can engage with safely."

Current Socio-Political Context

Performing "Becoming Eve" in today's socio-political climate presents unique challenges and opportunities. Tommy Dorfman speaks candidly about the vulnerabilities faced by trans actors amid rising transphobia and societal tensions. [19:17] He states, "It's been an incredibly vulnerable year... sharing a story about a trans experience with an audience."

Dorfman emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces on stage to authentically portray trans narratives, despite external threats and societal pressures. [19:18] He adds, "I can be as present as possible and not worry about the violence that people are wanting to engage with me on stage."

Conclusion

"Becoming Eve" stands as a testament to resilience, identity, and the power of storytelling through innovative theatrical techniques. Through the collaborative efforts of Rabbi Abby Hava Stein and Tommy Dorfman, the play bridges personal memoir with artistic expression, offering audiences a profound glimpse into the life of a trans rabbi navigating faith and self-discovery.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Rabbi Stein on community expectations:
  "Everything was written out... from the minute you were born till after your funeral."
  [09:08]

• Tommy Dorfman on embracing the role:
  "I read the script and I fell in love with Emile's writing and poetry... It felt like a really unique opportunity."
  [04:27]

• Rabbi Stein on the depth of conversations:
  "There’s a lot of intense conversations to be had. There’s a lot of depth in the Jewish texts around gender and sexuality."
  [02:04]

• Dorfman on the socio-political challenges:
  "It's been an incredibly vulnerable year... sharing a story about a trans experience with an audience."
  [19:17]

---

This episode of All Of It not only highlights the transformative journey of Rabbi Abby Hava Stein but also underscores the evolving landscape of cultural narratives within the framework of modern theater. Through heartfelt dialogue and immersive storytelling, Alison Stewart facilitates a conversation that resonates deeply with both the WNYC community and broader audiences.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Rabbi. Rabbi, what did I just say to you?

[Listener Support Announcer]

You are not the first person to make that mistake.

[Alison Stewart]

It's Rabbi Abby Hava. Stein comes from a very prominent Hasidic family here in Williamsburg. Stein was trained from a young age to be a rabbi and has always known that she was. She learned what it meant to be a trans woman. Rabbi Stein wrote a memoir about her experience coming out and leaving the Hasidic community. And now that memoir has been turned into a play. Tommy Dorfman stars as Hava. We meet her as she's preparing to reveal to her parents that she has transitioned. She's done research into Jewish text to provide context around her trans identity that she thinks her parents can understand. When only her dad shows up to the meeting, Hava knows things might not go as planned. The play is called Becoming Ev. The show also includes amazing puppets who play young Java in different stages of her life. It's running at the Abrams art Center through April 27th. And just this morning, the play was nominated for three Drama League awards, including outstanding production of a play and a distinguished performance nomination for Tommy Dorfman. I'm joined now by Rabbi Avi Haveestein. Hi, Rabbi.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Hi.

[Alison Stewart]

And actor Tommy Dorfin, who plays Hava.

[Tommy Dorfman]

Hi. Nice to meet you. Hi. So nice to meet you.

[Alison Stewart]

How did the idea to turn your story into a play come about? Abby? I was gonna call you Abby because I'm Rabbi.

[Listener Support Announcer]

No, Abby is perfect. Thank you. I said that. Actually, one of the talkbacks last week of the show that when I chose that name 10 years ago, I wasn't planning to ever work as a rabbi again, which I am doing right now. My day job currently is as a rabbi in Brooklyn. So it is partially my fault and I will take it. Maybe I should start going by Rabbi Chava. That's like. It will also be hard to, but in a different way. So the idea, I'm going to be fully honest, the idea came from the commercial producers who are Brian and Dana Lee, who are amazing, and this amazing Jewish couple from Toronto who I got to work with for the past five years. They reached out to me and to my agent, my literary agent. At the beginning of COVID like, our first meeting was on Zoom already, when most of us barely knew what Zoom was. And they were like, we think this is a great story. And the story, what actually happened is that I think Brian's mom, one of their producers mom, has seen or read the book as part of a book club in her, like, hometown Jewish book club scene. Don't know exactly what the story was. And they were like, we would love to turn it into a play. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be honest that I knew very little about the theater industry. I trust my agent a lot. And I'm like, let's talk about it. Let's see what we have to say. And I had a conversation with them and what I will say, and something that has stayed true to every moment of the show and actually comes across very powerfully. And one of the reasons why I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna work with you, and, like, we'll sign rights, we'll go, we'll try to make this happen. Well, one of the things that I told them is that this book and my story are not about Hasidic people. Bad. Yeah, like that. This is not the story. Obviously, I have a lot of fundamental disagreements with that community. I left for many reasons, but I really wanted to come across as like, yes, there's a lot of struggles. Yes, there's a lot of transphobia, there's homophobia. There's a lot we need to work on, but there's also beauty. There's also a lot of intense conversations to be have. There's a lot of depth in the Jewish texts around gender and sexuality. And I was like, if we can make this happen, we'll do it.

[Alison Stewart]

You want to have a nuance?

[Listener Support Announcer]

Yes. They were like, this is what we want. And I think five years later, Tommy's doing a great job making that happen.

[Alison Stewart]

Tommy, why did you want to be involved in this production?

[Tommy Dorfman]

I cannot take credit for making it happen other than I am.

[Alison Stewart]

You're really good, though.

[Tommy Dorfman]

That's very, very kind. Thank you. I'm really honored to get to be a part of this next chapter of becoming Eve and bringing your story to audiences in a visual way and through a different kind of language. And for me, I read the script. I was doing Romeo and Juliet on Broadway and was not thinking I would go right into another play after a 20 week run. But I read the script and I fell in love with Emile's writing and poetry. And I devoured Abby's book, and I thought, if I had an opportunity to do this, I would do whatever it takes to get that job and give it my best shot. And I just fell in love with the love in the story and maintaining that love. And even in conflict, there is still a desire to find balance and paradox, to thrive in. In some way. So, yeah, just. It felt like a really unique opportunity. I'd never worked with puppetry before. For me, as an actor, when I'm looking at things I want to pursue, I want to make sure that I'm going to learn something in the process. And this is a wellspring of things I knew nothing about on a real, practical level.

[Alison Stewart]

You work in a big Broadway show, and this is a much smaller, more intimate show. What does that provide you creatively?

[Tommy Dorfman]

It's been the most incredible journey these last nine months or so of working consistently. It offers. The intimacy of Circle in the Square is not so different than the intimacy of Abrams Art center, actually, in the way that we were in the Round. And so while there were about 800 seats and there's about 350, it's one of the smaller Broadway houses. But I could see every single person at Circle in the Square and at Becoming Eve, it's actually quite liberating because I'm not in the round, and so I only see the first three rows, and so it's proscenium.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Interesting.

[Tommy Dorfman]

So in a weird way, it feels less intimate, actually. But there is something quite, I think, cinematic about Tynes directing in particular. And there's a focus to the play that does draw people in, to paying attention to every little detail. I think the biggest distinction is I just don't leave the stage in Becoming Eve at all. And so that is something that took me some time to get accustomed to.

[Listener Support Announcer]

That seems hard, and I can say that. But I also want to say, like, I agree with what you said about Tyne, specifically, because I've had conversations with Ty and with Emile for years now, and. And specifically, I saw it during rehearsals and even during tech, where time was just constantly, like, okay, I'm not feeling this. This needs to, like, draw my attention. This needs to happen, like, knowing what are the details that we want to focus on, and some conversations that I have with her specifically towards, like, with the final scene of the play without too many spoilers. But I really helped a lot with bringing in some ideas. Here's what we can do. Here's a reading we can do, here's additions we can do, and she was just constantly like, this is what I want people to feel like coming in with a very clear vision of this is what we want people to feel, and how do we make that happen? And I think you bring this to life in a very intense way, you and Brandon and Richard and everyone else on stage. And it's amazing and powerful for me, knowing so little about theater, but seeing, like, hearing first a vision from Emile from Tyne, and then seeing it on stage successfully accomplished is so beautiful.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are Rabbi Abby Haveestein and Tommy Dorfman. We are talking about becoming Eve, which is based on Abby's memoir of the same name. Abby, you come from a prominent family within the Hasidic community. Yes.

[Listener Support Announcer]

The reason I'm. For those who can't see me, obviously, I'm reading a bit intensely. So there is one of the people that are mentioned in the play that Tommy, as Chave mentions, which is Zaidi, which is. My grandfather, actually passed away three days ago.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Listener Support Announcer]

So that is. There's been a lot of feelings and emotions, and he played a huge impact. He had a huge impact on me from the day I was born till three days ago till today, which is why I had this, like, very intense breath. When you mentioned that. No, no, we can talk about it. We can 100% talk about it. I'm just explaining why, like, I'm not. It's. It's not bad. No, actually, it helps to talk about it. It's just, like, I'm explaining why I had this intense reaction.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. What kind of expectations were placed on you as a young person?

[Listener Support Announcer]

The better question would maybe be what kind of expectations were not placed? And what I mean by that is that everything was written out. I like to joke with people that, you know, you were born, you eat, and you breed. And then when you're three years old, you have an upshiren, which is a scene that is mentioned in the book several. Like your first haircut. And when you're 13, you have a bar mitzvah. Another scene that is mentioned in the play as well. And then when you're 17 and 18, you get engaged and married. It is kind of like what you do. But when. I mean everything is prescribed. I mean everything. And I know Tommy also knows that from the costumes and from other things, nothing is left up to chance. From the kind of shoes that you wear to the underwear, to the blessings that you make before and after going to the bathroom, how you dress, the kind of food that you Eat literally everything. And I think in my family, specifically because of kind of like the rabbinical dynasty that they take so serious. I've had one of the feedback Samoset told me about the play is that, oh, there seems to be such a strong focus on the, like, lineage. Kind of like Tati, played by Richard Schiff, like, mentioned several times, like the BAAL Shem Tov, who's the founder of the Hasidic movement and a very important figure. And I had to tell this person who made this comment that this is still not as intense as I grew up with it. There's this intense expectations that you're going to follow a very, very specific path. And even within the community, there were some things that other Hasidic people could do that we couldn't. And even jobs like most Hasidic people can work in almost any field that they are good at. And I was expected to do something, let's call it Judaica, like something like whether teach or be a rabbi or be a teacher at a school, or work as a religious scribe, but a relatively limited amount of things that you can do from the minute you were born till after your funeral.

[Alison Stewart]

Wow. Tell me. You are on stage, as you said, almost the whole entire play. But it's very interesting because Hava is portrayed by puppetry. It's really beautiful.

[Tommy Dorfman]

Sure.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Yeah.

[Tommy Dorfman]

I think the physical expression of Hava.

[Alison Stewart]

It really is puppetry. It is. You do the voice in the past, which is important.

[Tommy Dorfman]

Yeah. Which I think is also performance.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, tell me a little bit about learning to do that kind of performance. Cause that's different than you talking to.

[Tommy Dorfman]

No, it's completely different. It's the closest experience I've had to being like a voiceover actor almost, in a sense, except I am lit on stage and very present. I think the great liberation of it is that I don't have to necessarily detransition to tell Chava's story in this format. To play a character from ages 3 to 25 is one of the big reasons I wanted to do this play. It felt like a challenge that I had never been presented with in my artistry before. So it's just really exciting to think about where in the body certain ages live. Like, that's my process as an actor, so.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, tell me more about that.

[Tommy Dorfman]

So what I found in research and working with, like, I work with Julia Crockett, who works with Sarah Paulson and Rachel McAdams, a bunch of different amazing actors. She's incredible. Julia's this incredible movement acting coach and we were playing with these. We just spent a couple hours together playing with each age, because I didn't have a lot of time. I had overlap rehearsal between Romeo and Juliet and this. And when you're younger, you talk from a higher space. It's not just in your register. It's an energetic space, like your crown chakra. There's excitement. And actually the same thing happens when you get older again. The same thing happens when you get older again. You start to, like, your crown chakra sort of opens up. And then your teenage years, you start to get your voice. You start to get some autonomy of thinking, maybe not in the environment you live in, which is an issue that Hava's obviously presented with, but that did not stop her from being a very outspoken teenager and young adult and adolescent and adult.

[Listener Support Announcer]

I think it exists. It exists even in that community on a different level, but it definitely exists.

[Tommy Dorfman]

So then for me, it's like I knew transitioning into teenage voice, it was gonna come from. From here. And then when you go into marriage and adulthood, you have a sexual awakening. So stuff starts to come from your root chakra. I can say sexual on npr, right on wnyc. And so that offered me a toolkit to quickly shift, because I have to shift within. Sometimes there's no. There's less than a second in between ages. So there's a section of prayer that happens where Hava starts praying at 6 years old. And then during the same prayer, chava enters at 13, the day before her bar mitzvah. And her dad's gonna come in and teach her how to do tefillin. And I think that I just. I had to really spend a lot of time placing those things in my body so that I could easily access them and then immediately go back into the present moment, which is Chava, 14 months into her transition, having a really challenging conversation with her father using centuries old text about the Ikeda from one of their. An interpretation of the Ikeda from a rabbi that is also one of their ancestors that talks about, you know, a female soul being born inside of a male body. And that's kind of.

[Alison Stewart]

My son's name is Isaac.

[Tommy Dorfman]

That's my golden ticket. That's my golden ticket. But, yeah, so that was the process. And it's exceptional to work with puppetry artists because it offers a different kind of collaboration of a deep, deep focus of work.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, yes.

[Tommy Dorfman]

Breathwork together as a company. We have to. Sometimes there's four or five of us moving as one organism, playing the same energy and character and I think we spend a lot of time where I would block it with my physical body and then they would come in with puppetry and then I would match their puppetry.

[Alison Stewart]

And it's sort of funny when you're trying to eat cookies as a little kid.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Oh my gosh.

[Tommy Dorfman]

I know. And sometimes they'll grab a cookie at a different line and that's great and that's fine. And we play off each other, kind of have to play this. It's like the cookies in my mouth. Yeah, exactly. But it is, I think, trying to really live in the experience of the memory. And to me, the most beautiful part of Emile's writing, Tynes direction, Abby's book, and how it comes together on stage with the puppetry is that it allows memory to enter the present day space. Because I think that's how memory functions. It functions in our present. It enters you. And I could be talking. I'm thinking about something that happened to me when I was four and then I'm back at the table and I'm like, sorry, what did you say? You know, and that's what's happening to Chava this entire time.

[Listener Support Announcer]

I mean, I will just say like that for me, watching it, like when you said like five bodies working as one organism is so interesting because it's one of the many like kabbalistic Jewish mystic things that they talk about. Like every person there's a mention to one of those sources in the play, a source from the Zohar, which is this like 13th century core kabbalistic Jewish mystic text that talks about every person having to be male and female at all times. But there's actually a lot more. Every person has somewhere between 7 to 10, like at all times, different kind of almost personalities. And to me it is one of those kabbalistic things that I grew up with as this mystical thing that is actually very real to me in a day to day life. And like, I think I feel like to this day, like I have all of those parts. Like sometimes I am a very, if we can use that word now, very sexual, you know, 30 year old living in New York City as a queer person and trying to live life. The next day I'm giving a sermon in front of 1500 people for our high holiday service. And another time I am just like this like nerdy farming girl who is up in the, I don't know, in upstate New York doing some farming because I love doing that and like all of those different ideas coming together and it's actually extremely liberating and Beautiful to watch what isn't, but obviously isn't me. And I had to do a lot of work on being like, this is Chaveh in the play, which based on me, not me. And, like, doing all of that. But watching it has been so helpful in my own life, if I may say. Like, it has been so liberating. And I think I've mentioned. You might have heard me say this, Tommy. Like, I've mentioned how, like, I used to have this complicated relationship with pictures of me before transition, to the extent that I wouldn't share them. I shared them once 10 years ago, and then I stopped. And now with a puppetry, I'm like, oh, an old photo of me. That's puppet me. That's not really me anymore. To the extent that now talking, just like on Sunday when I learned that my grandfather passed away, I think for the first time in 10 years, I actually shared two photos that are pre transition me from my wedding for the first time in 10 years. And 100% that my therapist, plus the play gave me the ability to have this. Like, this is me, but it's more of a puppet. It's not real me. It's not in there. There is still a lot growing in and, like, with the puppetry and Amanda, who made the puppets, and Rowan and, like, all having all these conversations. But one of the things that the puppets do is as it gets older, it becomes more corporal. Like, it becomes more. It starts out more vague, like, the body isn't so solid. And as the puppet gets older, it becomes more and more real. And then there's all those moments where Tommy steps in for the puppet, like, the first time with a kiss, and then, like, conversations with Freddie kind of with the ex and so on. And those are all so real because, yes, it's Chaveh, but it isn't. And it is so much about growing into a way of feeling comfortable. And this was not the plan of this play in any way or form. But it has turned into. I was expecting it just to be extremely traumatic for me, to be honest. And it has turned into this thing where I found myself someday thinking, can I share these photos? Because the only photos I have with my grandfather are pre transition. And I'm like, yeah, I think I'm comfortable with this. It's not really me. This is puppets. This is puppet Abbey. There's puppet Chava on stage. There's puppet Abby in photos. It's perfect.

[Tommy Dorfman]

So happy.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

I want to get to this before we run out of time, but, Tommy, I Want to know how it feels to perform in a play like this at this particular moment that we're in right now with trans folks? What is it?

[Tommy Dorfman]

What's happening? Yeah, what's happening in this moment?

[Alison Stewart]

What's happening for you?

[Tommy Dorfman]

What's happening for me? It's been an incredibly vulnerable year of being an actor on a stage, in sharing physical space with hundreds and hundreds of people in a political climate that is actively threatening trans people's safety, serenity, peace. I mean, just on the basic. But I also think there's been violence perpetrated towards trans people since the beginning of time. So there's Maybe not since the beginning of time, but in my contemporary life and in this nation. And it's just being publicized on a different. It's being platformed differently, it's being weaponized differently. And obviously that is a really complicated space to try and do anything in. So it can be a hard space to wake up in, let alone go on stage and share a story, such a specific story about a trans experience with an audience. I think I remember feeling this really distinct shift in January, February. We all know why, when I was doing Romeo and Juliet, because I was the only trans person in that cast. There was a non binary actor who was my understudy, but at least, you know, company on stage, eight shows a week. Most of the time. I was also very scantily dressed. So it invites a certain type of investigation of body. Trans people. I don't like inviting that type of investigation of body. But that's also part of the human experience, any actor's experience. It's not specific to being trans. It's just that there's another layer to that. And especially when the country's talking so much about us in this negative, deeply violent, violating way, it can be really complicated to somehow move through that, feel safe enough to do my work, which requires me to feel completely unburdened. And so I can be as present as possible. And I'm not worried about the violence that people are wanting to engage with with me on stage. And Becoming Eve is. I feel great. Cause I had this experience with Romeo and Juliet where I kind of had to realize my body was protest in this moment. And then becoming Eve is just like a continuation of my body as protest in this moment. And really offering that to the people who get to show up and see it.

[Alison Stewart]

The play is called Becoming Eve. My guests have been Rabbi Abby Havish Stein and actor Tommy Dorfman. Thank you for coming to the studio.

[Tommy Dorfman]

Thank you for having us.

[Listener Support Announcer]

Thank you so much for having us. Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

And that is all of it for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship wnyc.org.