← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Bill Sherman On Writing Your Kid's Favorite Songs
00:22:47
Prolific songwriter and arranger Bill Sherman discusses his latest project for PBS Kids, 'Donkey Hodie.'
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- [00:07]
A
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Thanks for being with us. I hope you're having a good Monday. This week you'll hear five shows of what we call producer picks. Each day, a different producer on our team will select some of their favorite segments they've worked on this year and share some behind the scenes anecdotes. Our producer, Luke Green is with me in studio for the first show featuring his selections. Luke, what are we going to start with this hour?
- [00:34]
B
Yes. So we are going to start with Bill Sherman, who is the music director of Sesame Street. I don't know if you remember this conversation. He also worked on the music behind in the Heights with Lin Mamo Miranda also and Juliet on Broadway. He's kind of big in the Broadway and kids music world.
- [00:50]
A
He's part of the Wesleyan gang.
- [00:51]
B
Yes. Well, like certain people, I was unsure if I wanted to bring this up, but he mentioned in the interview that he's, he sort of gives us his story from Long island and how he got into music. And he's like, well, I went to Wesleyan University in Connecticut and there's this big, you know, Wesleyan Mafia in the entertainment industry where like, you know, Lin Manuel went there and he obviously did not know that I also went there. But when he left the studio, he, I was walking him out and I was like, bill, I hate to break this to you, but like, fellow member of the mafia right here. And he was like, oh my God, I can't believe it. So that was a funny moment. And I'm just a big fan of his. I think working on Sesame street is such a legendary gig and to hear him tell the behind the scenes stories of what that gig is like is cool. Now, the reason Bill was joining us for this specific segment was because he was working on a new puppet project from PBS Kids and Fred Rogers Productions called Don Quixote. Don Quixote. Don Quixote. You see the connection there? And so he made a lot of music for the show and came on to talk about it.
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A
All right.
- [01:52]
C
The music of Don Quixote is streaming now also on PBS Kids. And I started by asking Bill Sherman about his origin story of how he got into music growing up on Long Island.
- [02:04]
D
I originally wanted to be a marine biologist, which didn't work out because here we are. But I played the clarinet. I had a great music teacher in elementary school who then hit me to the saxophone, which sort of became my instrument in life and, and moving forward from there. And a really great story about that is that man, his name is Gary Meyer, and he taught me at Lloyd harbor elementary on Long island, and he now is the saxophone player in the Sesame Street Band. So I sort of did a little paying forward and, you know, all that kismet business and I felt were the great thing to do. Anyway, so I studied music there, and then I went to Wesleyan University in Connecticut, and I wanted to be a saxophone player. Both my parents are doctors. They didn't know that that was a profession, but they've supported my journey, as it were, and. And then, as luck would have it, while at Wesleyan, I met Lin Manuel Miranda, the famed Hamilton creator, et cetera, et cetera. And he and I became fast friends and have been ever since then. That was a long time ago. We'll just leave that at that. And he sort of introduced me to musicals. I grew up on Long island, like you said, and so my family would come and we would see musicals from time to time, but it wasn't necessarily my thing. And then Lin was like, do you want a music direct? And I said yes. And I had no idea what any of that meant. And I sort of. It was like a very fast learning curve. And we worked on his shows in college, and then we graduated from college, and he was like, hey, we're gonna. I did this show in college. I had. I had not seen it while we were there. He's called in the Heights. It's about people growing up in Washington Heights, and it has Latin music and all this stuff, and seriously, like, nothing I knew anything about. And so. And he's like, we're gonna try to make it into a Broadway show. So we developed it over years and years and years at the Drama Bookshop in Midtown with the help of some other friends from Wesleyan, Thomas Kael, Neil.
- [03:47]
A
The whole posse, the whole.
- [03:48]
D
Yeah, it's like they call it the we for a reason. Like, there's a lot of. Everywhere I go now these days, like, somebody never, you know, somebody went there. And so we developed in the Heights over eight years. I don't think there's a thing people don't know that musicals take really long time to make. So it was like an eight year journey. And then we did that, and then from there, everything sort of took off. And I don't know how origin we want to get. And then we worked on, you know, the Electric Company, and then Sesame street and then Hamilton, and then. Let's fast forward to. Here we are.
- [04:16]
A
Were you a good saxophone player?
- [04:17]
D
I was a. You know what, Alison? I was a great saxophone Player. And I was so into it, and it's just sort of become a thing. Like, I just don't do that much anymore. It sits in my studio in the corners, sort of like staring at me and getting, you know, blaming me for not playing it and. But yeah, but I sort of. I taught myself how to play the piano, and I can, like, sort of get the job done as it were, composing. But yeah, the saxophone was sort of like my first love and definitely the thing I really enjoyed to do. And then it just. I don't know, it just sort of. As, you know, things evolve, people evolve, life evolved. It sort of went away.
- [04:48]
A
When you're setting down to write a song or to work on your craft, what kind of environment do you need to have a creative side, but also to get things done?
- [04:58]
D
It's a good question. So I live both in Westchester and in Hoboken, New Jersey. And so in Westchester, I've built this beautiful studio in my basement, and I'm there all the time. A funny story about that is there's no windows. So I picked this very weird, like, baby blue nursery color to sort of like provide an environment. And now when I'm on zooms and people see this ridiculous. I always apologize. Just be. I'm sorry. This is a really weird look because to me it's just like, why, why, why did I pick that color anyway? And then. And then in Hoboken, my girlfriend lives in Hoboken, and I sit at the kitchen table with a laptop, and I do the same work in both places. And it's just so. I think, you know, I've been doing this for what seems like forever, I guess it's like 20 some odd years. And so it's mostly just in my head. And most of the times when I'm writing a song, it's when I'm driving from one place to another. So I'll drive and I'll voice memo a melody or whatever, and then I'll be like, that's it. And then I'll get home and 90% of the time I'll play it back, and that'll be the thing I use. And then 10% of the time, I'll sort of take that and adjust it into something else. But like, I don't. I don't know how you feel about this, but, like, after you've been doing something for so long, it sort of becomes second nature. You know, I. If I need to write a song and I sit down and I can't figure it out in like 15 minutes. Then I'll either like, take the dog for a walk or take a nap or like go do. Or take. Just go do something. Most often it's napping, but we don't want to admit to that. And I'll wake up and sometimes I'll have it and sometimes I don't. And then the other thing that I do is if I know in my bones that I don't have it, I will call somebody up and ask who I know will have it and ask them to do it. And it's taken me a long time to get to that, but I think that that's really important. It's just particularly a creative thing. Like if you, if you know you don't have it, that's okay. And like, find somebody who has it and then everybody wins, you know?
- [06:40]
C
My guest is musician Bill Sherman. He's the music director for Sesame street and arranger and orchestrator of Ann Juliet and In the Heights. He most recently was the co executive producer of Don Quixote, sort of a puppet series from PBS Kids and Fred Rogers Productions. You can see the videos now they're streaming on PBS Kids and YouTube. You've written thousands of songs over your career?
- [07:03]
D
It seems like that, yes. It's a lot. I couldn't tell you an exact number. I mean, I could, but I don't know what exactly what it is. It's a lot.
- [07:11]
C
When you're writing for kids, how has it made you a better writer of songs?
- [07:18]
D
So, you know, the average. Excuse me, American pop songs, like three and a half minutes long. Right. You know, and two and a half now. Yeah, right, right. Depends on what era we're in. Absolutely. So it's, it's, it's longer though. Like they have bridges and more than one chorus or more than one verse. And I think with, with, with kids music, it's like a minute and a half. You have a minute and a half to pack everything in. So I, my, my phrase with that is like, it's always all killer, no filler, you know, so you. It's first chorus, verse out, and that's sort of the vibe for this, for the song. And so I think the, the challenge is to sort of create an earworm melody that works for the verse and an earworm melody that works for the chorus because. Which I guess is sort of the key to any song, but particularly with kids songs, if you can get a kid hooked and be humming both the melody and the chorus, then you sort of won the thing. Right. And so that's, that's the challenge, though, and then the challenge is also, like, you don't have a ton of time to do that, so you, like, you have to start big. Like, there's no long intros. There's no, you know, none of that stuff. And there's no, like, instrumental breaks. And also a thing I've been talking about lately is there's not a lot of, like, held notes because, like, because children's music, you're trying to. At least the ones that are sort of like, learning focused or educationally focused are. Are always trying to pack as much information into the song as they can. So it's not a lot of held notes because you're just trying to get all the info all the time. So that's the. And lately, sort of people who become, like, writers for me and I work with, I'm always telling them that we're not. Don't think about writing a kid's song. Think about writing a great song. And I think that that's the most important thing. And the reason I say that is, like, if I'm in the car with my children and they're playing pop and they're playing all the top 40 hits, and they, of course, know all of them and Tikt this and Snapchat that, and they know all of the things. They're so smart and so, and, and, and so I always feel like I'm always writing for them and, like, what their ears are hearing, and they're a little older than, like, my demographic, but for the most part, it's like you write a catchy song, you write a catchy song, and I think a kid can sort of feel that and hear that. And I think.
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A
Let's talk about Don Quixote.
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D
Absolutely.
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A
Much like Don Quixote.
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D
In fact, one of the same.
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A
One in the same. Is it?
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D
Well, Don Quixote is sort of. Is a Fred Rogers, like, quirky take on that particular thing. And so Don Quixote is herself a donkey and a puppet and this incredible character that was sort of like this other. Other than Mr. Rogers neighborhood. This was sort of this other thing that he did. So it's Don Quixote, it's Purple Panda. They live in somewhere. Someplace else. And they, you know, they go on misadventures. And it's a very. It's a very well done, smart show. And one of my favorite things about it is the producers of it, who are spiffy entertainment and Fred Rogers Productions, they give me a sort of carte blanche to almost do whatever I want. And so you know, one day, donkey will be singing a bluegrass song, and then the next day there'll be, like, an EDM thing, and then the next day there'll be, like, a hip hop thing, and you sort of get to do whatever you want, and I love that. And. And it's very rare that I sort of get that sort of, you know, ability or people grant me that to do really whatever I want. And so sometimes, of course, I'll push it too far and write some ridiculous song that's just absurd. And then they're like, well, not that.
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A
But okay, well, you know, you hear that?
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C
It's produced by Fred Rogers entertainment. That's huge.
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A
Do you think about the legacy of what he wanted to do with kids when you're writing the songs?
- [10:37]
D
It's so funny you asked me that. So I knew I was coming here, and so I was walking the dog last night, and. And I was thinking about legacy, and I think legacy is such an interesting thing to me. There are people in my life who are very interested in their legacy, and then they're people who are not. And so I think that there's an innate pressure of working on things like Sesame street and Fred Rogers. Pressure is the wrong word. An innate responsibility. Responsibility to uphold this high level of stuff. And I've always said to myself over the years, if I. If at any moment I feel like I'm not like Fred or Joe Raposo or whatever wouldn't be proud of this, then I should quit. And so you went all the way. Yeah. Which sounds very dramatic.
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C
Just take a nap.
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D
It would have been okay. And then I'd wake up and I'd have the new sunny days, whatever. But, yeah, I always. I do feel that, and I think that that helps me sort of keep a really high level of composition and whatever in the songs that sort of are coming into those shows. But, yeah, I mean, there are some days where I forget that it's like, it's Fred Rogers, it's Sesame street, it's all these things. And it's like. And then there are other days where it's like, oh, I better get it together. Like, this is a lot to live up to, you know, and, like. And so many of those. I mean, I like to think that, like, as I took over the job at Sesame street and with Don Quixote, that it was like you were writing the new classics. But that's a really hard bar to set for yourself because, like, classics are classics, and the reason they. A lot of the reason that those things were such A big deal is they were at the beginning of something, and I'm taking over something like. Like many years into the sort of evolution of it. And so it's a different. It's sort of like sustaining a legacy or like. Or like, sometimes it's. Sometimes it feels like you're redefining it. Sometimes it feels like you're not. I don't know. It's. It's. It. The answer to your question is yes. It's like, I do think about legacies a lot because I'm sort of, like, inundated with them. And. And, yeah, I feel like it's my responsibility to keep the level of everything as high as possible.
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A
All right. In Don Quixote, there's all kinds of music. You mentioned it. Pop, rock, country, New Orleans swing, sea shanties. We're going to listen to.
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D
I love that we're going to listen to this one.
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A
A song about a sea shanty. How did this come up?
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D
That's a really good question. I think I was sent. If I remember correctly, I was sent a page of lyrics, and the top it said sea shanty. And I was like, well, you know, as a. As a kid from Long island, from a whaling town, I know sea shanties very well, which is a total lie and absurd. But I was like, all right, you know, let's. And so I just. I listened to a bunch of sea shanties, and I was like, oh, okay. Like, I get this. And. And the fun. The funny thing about that is, is not a lot of kids songs are written in six or three, right? So. Ding ding ding ding ding. And so this was kind of fun to get to, like, sort of live in that neighborhood a little bit.
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A
Here is Donkey. Sea Shanty by Bill Sherman.
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E
The anchor here. Bow wow wheel of this boat from stern to bow we'll sail the sea, you and me and sing the skunky sea chantee he ha hey O J he bow wow the sea is calm we sail along and sing our happy sailing song Don Quixote and her crew riding on the ocean blue Hee haw hey all day day bow wow I'm a duck and I can float But I prefer life on a boat when the sea gets rough My greatest wish is to play some fetch with a dog fish Hee ha he Now, I.
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C
Wouldn'T have thought about the 6, 3 till you mentioned it.
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D
Yeah, 6, 6, 8, 3, 4. For sure. Yeah.
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A
Why are you laughing?
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D
I just. Cause that's. I don't write a lot of sea shanties, and so it's funny. That we played that particular one. And also I remember I usually start writing songs on piano and I was like, sea shanty. So I started on accordion. So there's a lot of accordion in that. And like, one does not often lead with. Unless you're like Weird Al. One does not like lead with the accordion. And so I just remember that blaring in my speakers and thinking, oh, this is quite something.
- [15:02]
C
So anyway, my guest is Bill Sherman. He's the music director for Sesame street, an arranger and orchestrator of and Juliet in the Heights. He most recently recently the co executive producer of Don Quixote, a music puppet series from PBS Kids and Fred Rogers production. Music videos for the show are streaming on PBS Kids and YouTube. Okay, so last month it was found out that Sesame street has reached a distribution deal with Netflix.
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D
Correct.
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C
First of all, how did that, how did you react to the news?
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D
Exciting. I thought we were sort of waiting around to see sort of where Sesame street was going to find a home. And we found this wonderful home with Netflix. So it's a super exciting for everybody.
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C
On your normal day as being the music director of Sesame street. What's it like? What's your day like?
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D
I want everyone to think that I, you know, I go to breakfast and Elmo is sitting there and we enjoy eggs together. But that's not really how that happens. It depends. So we just finished. We just wrapped season 56, which is the craziest thing to say out loud on the radio. Season 56, we just wrapped a week ago, I think, or soon. And so the first half of the year is usually like, I get scripts and the scripts are made and approved, and then we sort of figure out what the songs are going to be for the episode. And then we were, you know, we write them and we do that and then we record the vocals and then we shoot all the episodes within like a month. And then starting in July, we sort of go into post and we do all the underscoring and do all this stuff. So it's like a. It's a bit of an ebb and flow, but like, that's generally the scope of the thing. And then there's other sort of things that are dispersed between there. But that's basically the idea.
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A
You've worked with so many different guests, so many celebrities from, I think Michael B. Jordan and Renee Rapp was on. Who's a guest? Who surprised you the most with their musical talent?
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D
Oh, there's so many. And I get this question a lot, and I can't believe that I Can answer it with, like, the names that I can answer it with, but. So two of my favorites are Ed Sheeran. So Ed Sheeran came in. We were in a studio in Brooklyn. We'd written this song, and he really liked it. And then he sang. He's known as, like, just nailing it the first time all the time. And he did that. And then he goes, do you want me to sing the harmonies? And I remember saying I had not written any harmonies. He's like, I got it. And I was like, okay. And so he just, like, proceeded to do all of these harmonies, and it was just like, okay, well, there's Ed Sheeran for you. And just nailed it. And then the other person who is. Is, like, Who I referred to as a vocal assassin is Nick Jonas. He. I wrote this song called Check that Shape, which was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever written. And he. He came in, and he added all of this stuff to it, and he just. And he was. Everything was one take and just nailing it. And I was just like, well, that was really impressive. I was really amazed by that. And then there's probably, like. I think the other thing that at Sesame street we've done in the past is done parodies of songs and for someone to come in and, like, nail alternate lyrics of a song that they've known forever and. But then, like, not being able to do it because they're so used to saying one particular thing. My favorite example of that is Macklemore came in and we did a parody of Thrift Shop, and it was really early in the morning. He's like, I don't usually get out of bed this early anyway. So he, like. He nailed. He nailed the whole thing. He's like, these lyrics are insane. And he, like. It was. The whole thing was really wild, and it was very fun to watch him do that. Yeah.
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A
Do people ever get intimidated that they're gonna be on Sesame Street?
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D
I wouldn't call it intimidation. I think people. I think people have an expectation of what being on Sesame street is like. And I think that when they get there, it's never the same thing. It's sort of. I always say, and this is a total nonsense thing I say is walking onto the Sesame street is like walking into the Oval Office. I've never walked into the Oval Office, but I assume that it's that same sort of, like, take your breath away moment. And so when they get there, like, everybody's, you know, I think childhood sort of flashes before their eyes, and then they Turn. Some people just, like, turn into a child again. And there's, like, the eyes of wonder and, like, the puppets are there and the set. And like, I think, you know, when you're small, Sesame street seems like this giant place, and it's like a whole street, and it's a whole thing. And then when you get into the studio itself, like, it smells different, and it, like, it's positioned in a way that, like, maybe you wouldn't have expected. And. And I for. And you forget that. And then you. You go. I go every year. And it's just like, oh, my God, that's. It's. It. There's so much magic in here. And, like, you. You maybe bring a friend or a composer or somebody who wrote the song, and they're like, oh, my God, this is. And then you sort of remember it's. It's a wild experience.
- [19:22]
C
We got a text here that says, what is your favorite song from Sesame Street?
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D
Like, ever?
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C
I guess.
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D
Okay, I will say. Okay. So the first song I ever wrote for Sesame street is what I Am by Will I Am or Will I am sang this song called what I Am, and it was the first song I ever wrote. And I remember not ever wrote the first song I wrote for Sesame Street. And I remember being there, and I was writing with a friend of mine, the famous Chris Jackson from Hamilton, and I called him on the phone and went to voicemail because he never picks up the phone. And. And I sang the first bit of it to him, and then he called me back, like, five minutes later. He's like, I got it. And then he. And then we sort of developed this song, and then we got to work with Will I Am, which is a very interesting, cool experience. In fact, his studio was in the same building. Weirdly enough, Chung King Studios used to be, I think, used to be in this building.
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C
Yeah. Def Jam, too.
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D
Yeah. And so. And so it was. It was a total mind trip. And also, like, the first, like, major thing that I've ever. That I had ever written. So that was pretty cool. And then, like, in general, you know, I mean, talking about, like, legacy and this kind of stuff, like songs like Sunny Days and then songs like who are the people in your neighborhood? And then, like, all the Fred Rogers stuff. Like, all that stuff's pretty hard to beat. And, like, once you sort of, like, get in and start studying it, it's so complex and so simple at the same time. It's like, what was an earworm back in those days? What's an earworm now? What does it sound like this anyway? It makes me just sort of think about, you know, the art of songwriting and stuff like that.
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C
Okay, so you have an Emmy, a Grammy, a Tony.
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D
Yes.
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A
Tell me about any film work you have coming up.
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D
This is what my mom gets on me. My mom, once I won. You have an ego.
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A
You can call it ego for now.
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D
I have plenty of an ego. Some can attest to that. Yes. So my mother, when she found out or when she was actually when I won those awards, she just like was convinced that I was gonna win an Oscar and she did all this research. And then I'm on these like crazy lists with like Bette Midler and like Al Pacino. And then it's like me, which always feels very funny to me. You know, I do, I score some films. I don't know if I ever will score a film that is of such stature to win an Oscar. That would be fantastic. It's not something I'm, I'm looking out for, although it would be super cool. So what's interesting, it's like a lot of egots haven't happened until this past like five or 10 years. And that's a lot of our friends like Justin Paul and Ben Pasek, the guy who wrote the Greatest show, they just e gone ed like I don't know, last year and Bobby Lopez and his wife. And they're amazing. Like all of these great songwriters who sort of live in the world that I live in, which is like this theater, poppy, whatever the heck you want to call it. And so all have written songs for Sesame Street, P.S. which I'm very proud of. But yeah, I don't know, I mean, all of that seems very nice. All of the honors are bananas. And I would never in my life have, have imagined that this would be part of it. And it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's very, it's quite an honor to have all those, those things. It's fun to talk about.
- [22:30]
C
That was my conversation with musician Bill Sherman. He's the music director for Sesame Street. He's also behind the music of Don Quixote, a puppet series from PBS Kids and Fred Rogers Productions. Music videos from the show are streaming on PBS Kids and YouTube.
- [22:47]
F
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D
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D
Wait, let's negotiate. How's about you throw in hash browns for a dollar?
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D
Take it or leave it.
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C
Take it, I guess.
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D
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