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All Of It with Alison Stewart
Bobby Finger's 'Four Squares' Now In Paperback
00:23:06
Bobby Finger, author and co-host of the Who? Weekly podcast discusses his second novel, Four Squares. which is now out in paperback.
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- [00:01]
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- [00:40]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. It's beach read season and we want to remind you about our Summer Reading Challenge. Throughout the end of through through the end of Labor Day weekend, we are inviting our listeners to read at least one book in five different categories, including a classic you've been meaning to get to, a book about or set in New York, a memoir or biography, a debut and a book released in 2025. Head to wnyc.org summerreading to register and to download the Summer Reading Challenge PDF again, that's wnyc.org summerreading now. If you're looking for one place to get started in the category of a book based in New York City, here's one that just came out in a handy portable paperback edition. The novel Four Squares is the second from Bobby Finger, co host of the popular podcast who who Weekly. You may remember his great debut, the old Place, his second novel turns the lens to New York City circa 1992 and 2022. Artie Anderson is a 30 year old living in the West Village. It's the 90s and art hustles as a copywriter. But that's not where his passions lie. Deep down, he wants to finish his novel about a group of queer friends living in New York during the AIDS epidemic. He has a good life, a small group of friends. But things get complicated when he meets Ab, a standoffish lawyer at the Bar Julius in the West Village. Despite his friends being a bit hesitant about Abe's intentions, the two eventually become lovers until they aren't anymore. Then the book takes us decades later. It's 2022 and art is now 60 years old. We find out that he's alone. His friends and community are no longer in his life for reasons that we will not spoil for you. But after a sudden leg injury, Art starts attending a senior center for LGBTQ people, where he encounters a cast of queer elders who are also grappling with solitude and the desire to seek community and intimacy. Interweaving through two stages of Art's Life Four Squares is a tender story about friendship and connection amid loss and is often overlooked experience and often the overlooked experience of aging as a queer person. The New York Times praised Finger's quote inviting tone of warmth and decency. His empathy for these people and their world is bright humor and skillful timing and clever phrasing. Here's my conversation with Bobby Finger. So you were on the show a few years back to cover your first novel, the Old Place, that's based in a fictional town in Texas. Good morning to what you grew up in. Foursquare is based right here in New York, where you currently live. How long was the desire to write a book with New York as the backdrop?
- [03:38]
Bobby Finger
I was hesitant. I was more eager to write a book about Texas than I was to write a book about New York City because the story in the Old Place was one that was kind of long lingering in my mind. It's something that was long stewing. And I worked on it in different forms for a long time until it became the novel that is now published. And I wasn't quite ready to write about New York City yet. And I felt like I hadn't been here long enough, even though at this point I've been here for 15 years. But I wanted to be sure I got it right. There was more pressure. Like the Old Place was truly a part of me. It felt like was part of my DNA. And I felt perfectly allowed to write that novel and this one. I felt like I needed to, I don't know, prove myself or prove to myself that I was allowed to write about New York City.
- [04:25]
Alison Stewart
Yeah, well, you go back to 1992, you had to obviously do research to find out what it was like to live in New York. In 92, where did you go to.
- [04:33]
Interview Host
Get the real experience, the experience of people who'd been through the AIDS epidemic crisis?
- [04:38]
Bobby Finger
I did a lot of reading, nonfiction, a lot of fiction, actually. But the most interesting piece of research that I did beyond my volunteer process with Sage, where I kind of. Which is definitely the inspiration for gals in the novel. GALS exists in kind of a different space than Sage and is way more social socialization focused than Sage, which is a lot more advocacy focused, although Gals does do those things. So after I had some experience with that, I had the idea for a novel about someone who finds himself in this place for the first time and is on the younger end and kind of doesn't feel old, doesn't feel young anymore, and has to make friends because I was in a. I don't know, maybe naive way, I was completely unfamiliar that this place existed, being sage. And when I was there, I was just so delighted by all of these older queer people. You know, 60s, 70s, 80s. There could have been some 90 year olds that I interacted with who were just so delighted to see each other, so delighted to see me living kind of robust social lives and knowing that there was a place that made that possible for them. And I felt like, oh, I don't. I never think about this. I never really think about what I will need in the future. So that was sort of the first inspiration and maybe the most, I don't know, important moment to me of the writing process came later. In one of the final drafts, I went to the Library of Congress with the intention of looking at the documents of a queer writer who had all of his papers from his life available to access for researchers. And I was denied that request for kind of complicated reasons. But. But the librarian at the Library of Congress said, what are you working on? And I told him the idea of the novel and what it was about. And he said, you know, we just got a submission or a donation from another queer writer who lived during the AIDS epidemic in the 80s from New York. And he gave us all of his materials. And they're not processed yet, they're not organized, they're not cataloged, but you can look through them if you want to. And I spent a couple days there just sifting through all of this stuff and what I found so nice about this is the novel is sort of. The novel is sort of small in that a lot of these queer people are just kind of sitting around in their apartments and talking or going to the bar, eating takeout, watching movies on HBO that they got illegally, you know. And to me, I love those sorts of small domestic slices of life, that sort of, that sort of novel. But I felt like, you know, I'm writing about this horrible moment in queer history. It almost feels unfair to make something so small. And in looking at those items from that writer, just the sort of everyday, like banal things that he did with his friends, partners, lovers, whatever, I realized like, this is life. This was life then and it's life now. And it almost gave me permission to keep going with it. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:35]
Alison Stewart
The protagonist of Four Squares is Artie. It's 1992. We meet him, he's a 30 year old man living in the Village. What excites him at that point in his life? What's exciting to him?
- [07:48]
Bobby Finger
What's exciting to him are his friends. Because in 1982. And this is. I set the novel in 1992 in part because I think of it as this transitional period where people, including Artie and his friends, have been living in New York during these horrible days of the epidemic, watching all of their friends die constantly, just constantly going to funerals. And at this point, treatment is sort of on the horizon. People aren't dying instantly. It's not a death sentence. And. And for the first time in many years, they're forced to actually contend with their future and they are allowing themselves to see that they have time. And he's, I think, embracing his friendships a lot more for the first time and enjoying just the quiet times that they have together without the burden of that constant, you know, trudge through activism, protests, death, you know, and he's just so happy to have these people in his life, which is why later on in 2022, he's so lost without them.
- [08:51]
Alison Stewart
You know, we're gonna ask you to read a little bit of the book.
- [08:55]
Interview Host
And this is a point when Artie and his friends, they're at Julius, their.
- [08:59]
Alison Stewart
Favorite bar around the corner, and Adam's.
- [09:02]
Interview Host
Art's friend Adam, tells him the last time he cried at the bar when he found out that he got an inconclusive HIV test. Will you read this passage for us?
- [09:11]
Bobby Finger
Sure. His friends didn't try to mask their relief, but they did hold their tongues, knowing better than to ask why he didn't tell them sooner. This wasn't about their own feelings. It was about his. One of the toughest things about any friendship is remembering that the mere act of listening is often not only enough, but also the totality of what the other person wants. Sometimes there is no follow up question, no complimentary personal anecdote, no soothing cliche that will do more than a silent nod or caress of the hand or pat on the knee. I didn't mean to drag down the mood. Adam finally said with a forced grin. I'm really, totally fine. I promise this isn't the first time and it won't be the last time. Well, I'm glad, Arty said, but still inconclusive. What a nightmare. I'm sorry. Adam shrugged as the memory of way fell upon all of them like an invisible dusting of snow. Could have been worse. This is the world. Now they knew the world. He meant it was the world. Too many straight people had spent the first decade of the pandemic pretending didn't overlap with their own. And their world wasn't insular or even hidden. It was right there. Within spitting distance of everyone else's worlds, so close to each other that they shared an orbit, an atmosphere, an apartment building. The last time Artie emerged from a testing location on 19th Street, a passerby shouted, stay away from me, faggot. Since his childhood, as the most effeminate boy in school, the word had struck him like the remnants of a broken glass. Non lethal, but liable to scar, with emotional reverberations that linger long after cleanup. When a glass breaks in a room, you change the way you walk inside it. You keep your eyes peeled for pieces you miss, just in case one finally proves unavoidable and pierces your skin, drawing yet another stream of blood.
- [10:46]
Alison Stewart
That was Bobby Finger reading from his novel Four Squares. Four Squares. It's the name of his book, the book that Artie's writing. Let's get all the books right. And it's the four squares are Abington, McCarthy, Fother, Demo, and Washington Square?
- [11:02]
Bobby Finger
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
Do they have meaning? Is there anything special about those four squares?
- [11:06]
Bobby Finger
They are. I mean, in the world of the book, his friends don't all live on each of these squares. But when he was fictionalizing his friends, he wanted to set it in this place that was so special to him and to me. It was special because I've never lived in the West Village. I love going to the West Village. And part of the fun, the most fun I had researching this book wasn't sort of like rifling through documents and reading books and watching movies and various things like that. Was just sort of wandering those streets and really looking up at the buildings for the first time and taking in those squares for the first time. You know, you walk past them all the time, but you don't read the plaques. So the significance was just. It was Artie's fictional in the world of the book, but also mine. When I was looking at things more fully for the first time. And it was special to me.
- [12:00]
Alison Stewart
When he publishes his book Four Squares, how is it received? How does he want it to be received?
- [12:07]
Bobby Finger
It's received with a whisper.
- [12:10]
Alison Stewart
The worst book signing ever.
- [12:12]
Bobby Finger
The worst book signing ever at a bookstore he loves, which is like another indignity. And a bookseller he finds kind of cute who doesn't give a damn about him, you know, and it's disappointing to him. But ultimately, I really do think that Artie is just relieved to have gotten it out. There's a sting to the lack of success or the lack of any kind of buzz, but really, the fact that his friends came, the fact that he proved Himself. And to Abraham, that he was able to finish this novel that he'd been working on for so long was really all that mattered. And ultimately, it helps him get his career as he ages.
- [12:47]
Alison Stewart
When you were thinking about putting out your own book, did you have similar feelings?
- [12:50]
Bobby Finger
Yes. Yes, I remember. This sounds darker than it is. Oh, no. But I remember my most vivid memory of the day that my first novel came out, which was something I had worked on in various other forms for a long time. But the novel itself kind of came together quickly in a way that I wasn't expecting. Like, I got an agent. She told me I could finish the manuscript. I did. I got an editor, you know, like. And then it was published in kind of that later stage of the pandemic in 2022. And I was surprised by this, and I. I was almost speechless. And I remember when I got back from the little book party I had with my friends after the novel came out, I was in my apartment with my husband, and he said to me, sort of jokingly, you can die now. And he. He meant it. He meant it as a joke, but I think he was kind of serious because he was saying, you did this thing that you didn't think you could do, and it's. It's huge. It's huge for you. And I think. And I don't want to compare it to children at all, but it's like, I'm never gonna have kids. And there is something. There's something truly unbelievable about having a book that will be around somewhere, you know, for hopefully, the foreseeable future. You know, it's gonna be somewhere on a shelf. Even if it's collecting dusk and the dust and the. You know, the spine isn't cracked. That's really. I still can't believe it.
- [14:09]
Interview Host
My guest is Bobby Finger. We're talking about his new book, Four Squares. So the book weaves back and forth through time. 2022, 1992. When we meet Artie, in his 60s, he's living in New York. He's ghostwriting for celebrities. It picks up writing gigs here and there. He's trying to, like, sugary breakfast cereal, Try to start an ad for it. Can't do it, whatever. But it's clear that he's grappling with loneliness. Truly, what motivates art to start thinking about his life, his priorities?
- [14:42]
Bobby Finger
It's the departure of the two closest people in his life, and they are both connected to Abraham because Abraham is. Was bisexual. So he had a wife. I mean, he had a messy relationship. And that Is one. He was a walking red flag. You know, this is why all of his. This is why all of his friends were saying, why are you with this guy? He's married to a woman. He's constantly cheating. He's lying to you. He's mean. You know, your first. Your meet. Cute. Wasn't cute at all in Julius and. But still, there was something about this man that sort of. That stuck with him. And he doesn't quite understand it. He just loved him. And he changed the trajectory of his life. And when Abraham dies, he leaves behind a daughter and a wife, Vanessa and Hallie. And he puts his entire affection for Abraham onto these two women, and he gives them basically the entirety of his life, especially after he no longer has his closest friends for a reason. Again, we won't spoil. And when they announce that they are leaving New York City, he realizes that he's always been. Not only is he going to be alone, maybe he's been alone this whole time. And he has to actually put some work into finding friends, which is something that he hasn't done for decades.
- [15:56]
Alison Stewart
You just said something so interesting, that he just loves him, that Artie just loves Abe. But that doesn't necessarily bring you closeness. It doesn't necessarily bring you. When you're in love with someone, the other person can be doing anything, but you just love them.
- [16:13]
Bobby Finger
You're right. And that's the thing that his friends don't understand. And like I said, he doesn't really understand it either. He just loves him. And that might be one of the things that's so impossible for him to deal with. He's obsessed with this guy, but he can't even articulate why. He just matters to him. He needs him by his side.
- [16:31]
Alison Stewart
Early on in 2022, he gets injured his leg, and he ends up on one of those scooters that you have to scoot around on, which is.
- [16:38]
Interview Host
That's.
- [16:39]
Alison Stewart
That's so uncouth. So. And he goes to gals.
- [16:42]
Bobby Finger
Yes.
- [16:44]
Alison Stewart
This is sort of a brain teaser, but if he hadn't had the leg injury, what might have happened to him?
- [16:53]
Bobby Finger
I've thought about that before. I don't think. I don't think he would have become a member early. I honestly think he would have given up. I don't think he would have volunteered more than a handful of times. And then he would have said, I really don't know that I belong here yet, you know? And that's why I injured him, because I couldn't believe him as someone who was going to continue Going to this place when he is such a deeply uncomfortable and kind of aimless man, you know, I needed him to break his foot. I needed to put him on a scooter. Yeah, it slowed him down. It slowed him down.
- [17:28]
Alison Stewart
So at gals, the elders there, they're fun. They poke shade at each other. And these actions are so vivid, the way you describe, describe them. What did you learn from the folks that you met at Sage? What did you learn about aging as a queer person?
- [17:48]
Bobby Finger
That it's a privilege. That it's really a privilege, and that the people who go there really seem to acknowledge it as a privilege. Because I think specifically in the generation that I'm in now and that they're in now, the people who are, you know, taking advantage of Sage's offerings live through stuff I never lived through, you know, and they went through things I can only imagine and try to imagine in the novel. And they just really do, for the most part, in my experience, see every day as a gift. And they feel extremely fortunate and extremely lucky. And they're kind of broad in the book. They're a little fun, they're a little. They're a little loud, maybe a little louder than a lot of people in real life. But I really wanted them to celebrate life in a way that was almost infectious to Artie because he internalizes it. You know, he's depressed, he's sad, he's traumatized, but he hasn't really acknowledged the gift that he's been given. Like the gift of a future, the gift of getting older. Yeah.
- [18:47]
Interview Host
Did you have an elder that you liked writing? Which one?
- [18:50]
Bobby Finger
I really liked. I loved writing Annabelle. I loved writing Annabelle, the woman with the loud glasses who was mysteriously quite wealthy. I loved writing Gregory. Yeah. And I loved writing Jasmine. There's a character who's sort of kind of a sourpuss, you know, a little. But what I liked about her is that she's sort of dour. She's not as excited as the other people, but she's still there. You know, she gets something out of it. She shows up for dinner every day or most days because she likes these people, even if she's not laughing as much as everyone else.
- [19:24]
Interview Host
There's another elder, Sterling Bismarck, who's a former big time actor who Art is gonna help write his memoir. If you were to talk about Sterling on who weekly, what's his status?
- [19:39]
Bobby Finger
Sterling? I love Sterling. I mean, Sterling is my favorite elder. He doesn't go to gals. He stays in his apartment.
- [19:45]
Interview Host
Those are great scenes.
- [19:46]
Bobby Finger
I love those are great scenes. I think that's my favorite chapter, if I had to pick one. But who is he? He's. He's a former them who sort of become a prestige them and maybe a generational who. Who you would recognize. You'd recognize the mustache. You know, you'd say, why have I seen this? Or why did my parents watch this show when I was growing up? And maybe you'd only hear about him on People or Else Weekly when, unfortunately, he died or got sick, because that's the sort of. That's the sort of headline he is making in his older age. Yeah.
- [20:15]
Interview Host
My guess is Bobby Finger Four Squares is his second novel. It's out now. Writing a book. This is about you. We'll put the book to the side. When do you find time? Are you a morning writer? Are you a thousand words by the end of the summer writer? What are you. What's your schedule? What's your skill?
- [20:35]
Bobby Finger
I love talking about this because I love talking about this with other writers because everyone is so different. And I'm always shocked by everyone's answers and everyone's shocked by mine because we can't believe that there are other ways to do this. But I cannot write in the morning.
- [20:46]
Interview Host
You can't?
- [20:47]
Bobby Finger
I can't. And also my podcast, we record three mornings out of the week, and the mornings, even when on days I'm not recording, I'm working on the show. So for years and years, the mornings have been my who weekly time. And I found that I also can't write at night because I like to cook, I like to. I like dinner. I just like. I have these very.
- [21:07]
Alison Stewart
I'm narrowing it down now.
- [21:08]
Bobby Finger
I love. Right. No, fully. It's a. We're just. It's. It's an elimination game. What's left? The afternoon. And so I have sort of out of necessity, the afternoon has become the time I can write. And because it's the time that is the most malleable and the most free. And I like writing. I mean, I wrote some of the early chapters of the Old Place doing Jami Attenberg's Thousand Words of Summer project. And I love daily word counts. But I found what works for me even better, even more is the weekly word count, because I would love to get, you know, a thousand, fifteen hundred, maybe even two thousand words a day. That would be amazing. But I love a deadline. I love sort of a mandate, and if you can't reach that, then I feel very depressed. So I sort of get a middle ground by adding the weekly word count. Okay, I'll make it up on this day. If I can make my X thousand words by Sunday, I'm good. So I give myself weekly word counts.
- [22:06]
Alison Stewart
We're doing the summer reading challenge around here, and we're asking guests who've written books and who are guests if they would participate. And you talked about a few different things. You're thinking about reading your debut novelist, Ways and Means by Daniel Lefferts.
- [22:20]
Bobby Finger
Mm. Yeah. It's also set in, like, contemporary New York. It's very. It's so exciting. And plot hungry. There was another category on there that was like, books that are going to be adapted into TV or movies and Ways and Means, as far as I know, has not gotten that yet, but. Oh, that would be. That would be a great limited series.
- [22:42]
Alison Stewart
Well, you have on your turn it a TV series or movie. People collide by Isle McElroy. Oh, they were a guest. They were great.
- [22:49]
Bobby Finger
Yeah.
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Interview Host
That's a great book.
- [22:50]
Bobby Finger
That's a great book. Yeah.
- [22:51]
Interview Host
Okay.
- [22:52]
Alison Stewart
Recommended by a friend. Loved and missed.
- [22:54]
Bobby Finger
Oh, that. Loved and missed. So this is a. I wanted to. Maybe I shouldn't say this on the air, but that's fine. I wanted to call this novel Old Fruits. They changed it. And I respect the opinion. I love the opinion. And I love the title Four Squares. It makes so much sense. But one of my favorite things as a reader is the. I don't know if there's a term for it, but you know, when you're the sort of late game final chapter reveal that reframes the title of a novel, or you get like, added context, you think you know the name, you think you know what it means, and then, oh, no, it means so much more than that. Loved and Mist was recommended by a friend just two weeks ago. Loved it. But it has one of the best instances of the title explanation in the final pages. And it's kind of unforgettable.
- [23:33]
Alison Stewart
Yeah, that was Bobby Finger. His new novel, Four Squares, is out in paperback.
- [23:38]
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