B (4:54)

What were the kids and their parents reactions when you first approached them to be a part of the film?

C (5:02)

Whenever you first approach anybody about this area, there's obviously a lot of hesitancy because they're worried, you know, that, that people will criticize, you know, so it's about how they. How they treated. And so for us, for me, a big part of making any documentary is about relationship, and it's about how you develop that relationship and build trust. And so that took a little bit of time. You know, you also want them to have some ownership of the film. So, you know, it's very important because they're not they're not being paid to do this. You know, they're doing this out of their desire to tell their story, to help others. So really, all the families were doing it in the hope that maybe they'll hope evoke change. And so it takes a little while to get to that place, you know, and you meet some families, and you can't continue because for whatever reasons, it's. It's not the right space for them, and it wouldn't be right. So, you know, on our journey, we met a lot of families before we settled on the three families that we were with. But once we started filming with them, you know, there are days that you turn up, and Caylee was like, I don't want to film. I'm tired. I just want to play on the trampoline or whatever, or, you know, and so you've got to respect that. And so I think that that's one of the. The aspects that you have to remember as a filmmaker is you have this desire to make this film, but you sometimes have to step back a bit and let them breathe a little, and then, you know, amazing things will happen. And then it means when events do occur that are quite hard on the family, like having to leave your home and ending up in a motel or taking your dog to the pound, you're. We are on the inside of that, and they just don't even see us. You know, it's that old adage of being a fly on the wall, but that's about relationship building.

A (6:54)

What questions did they have for you before you even started about your film?

C (7:01)

So they, you know, the importance to them is. Is, you know, what. What. Why would we do this? You know, what. What was the purpose of making a film like this? You know, for them, it's kind of, you know, can we make a difference? And it's something that, you know, I've been challenged that on many occasions with the sorts of films I've made, and I think my answer to them is, is, you know, we. We could just not make films like this, and. But we know nothing will ever change, but at least if we try, maybe something will. And. And it was. It was more the, you know, building the trust of what will happen to the film and how, you know, how it will play out, how it's being used. So that was the sort of the bigger concerns for them, really. And then, as I say, as the film then came out, after the first film, we then went back to. To do an update, and. And they were happy to continue filming because they knew how the first film, you know, what the first film was and how they were portrayed and saw that they were portrayed with fairness and in a respectful way.

B (8:08)

Was it always the, the, the goal to keep going back after a period of time, kind of like the Series 7 up?

C (8:18)

No, it wasn't. It was. It was actually Rainey Aronson's idea at Frontline. You know, she's great. Yes. She, she, you know, although, you know, Frontline do amazing investigations, they do all sorts of amazing balanced reporting, but she's also a filmmaker at heart, so, you know, she can see she loves classic film, you know, and, and so with this documentary, I mean, it was Rainey's idea not to put any narration on the first film. You know, I made it in conjunction with the BBC, and the BBC vers had narration all over it, whereas the Frontline version didn't. So we've continued that. So this new film, Born poor, is, is 90 minutes and, and is narratorless. It's just the kids telling their story. And it's very rare as a filmmaker, you get that opportunity. So. But it was. Yeah. Rainey asked me, what do you think? Do you think we could do an update? And it's. I went back to the kids and saw where they were as young adults, and there was. I was right at the beginning of Journey of the. Towards the end of Johnny's journey in football, and he was finishing up at university. So there's a bit of a narrative arc to it. And. And then, you know, you're from that. We've produced a film that, in my mind is. Is a completely different film in a way, to the others, because this really shows the PTSD and trauma that you live as a child, how that plays out as an adult. And the kids are so articulate about that. Some of the things that Brittany says and Kaylee says is. Is astounding. I mean, it's unbelievable.

B (9:52)

I'm speaking with Jessa Newman, director and producer of the documentary Born Poor, which first episode of the new season of Frontline. It's Born Poor premieres tomorrow at 10pm on PBS stations. It will also be on YouTube and at PBS.org frontline and in the PBS app. In the first stages of the film. The kids are just so young. What did you notice about how your youngest of subjects talk to you about being poor?

C (10:24)

They talk with an unfettered honesty and frankness. And what I love about kids talking about these subjects is they speak about it in a childlike way, which I don't mean in a sort of, you know, toddler, childlike way. It's, it's, it's, it's undiluted, it's not sports. So some of the way they describe things is just so poetic. And, and I think that's the, that's the amazing thing about listening to these kids and, and, and, and their perception and understanding is crazy, you know, and, and, and it's almost, you could argue, it's a bit sad that they are so self aware of what they're going through. But you know, there's one point in the film where even, you know, Britney challenges, it challenges the audience. Stroke me with, you could be poor one day. You never know. And that's true for a lot of Americans. You know, a lot of Americans are living one paycheck away from losing their house or losing their car or, you know, slipping, slipping to the other side. So I think that intuition is, is really amazing. And the way they describe their world and how they describe being hungry. You know, Kaylee has this amazing soliloquy on a swing. You know, she sat on a swing talking about what hunger pains are. And it's just, it's so vivid. You get this. Yeah, it just really cuts in and you, and it's not just saying, oh, I'm hungry. It's the way she describes it really gives you a vis, a viscous vision of what hunger is.

A (12:03)

It's so interesting because the kids are like kids and they talk about wanting sneakers and wanting PJs. But I was curious, being born poor, what does it do to their sense of hope?

C (12:23)

So hope is something that they keep, but it's a survival mechanism. So this is what has been described to me by Kaylee. Actually. She's the one that described this really clearly in the latter. Latter, you know, more recently as covering her as an adult. And, and she talks about the fact that because there are times when you watch Johnny's dreams and hopes of being a football player, you know, you'll always question yourself, should he be doing that? You know, is this crazy? You know, how many kids actually make it? But when Kaylee explains that it's the hope and dreams that, that make living the today possible, you kind of got to go, well, yeah, why wouldn't you have that hope and dream? And why would you let that dream go? Because then you're all you're faced with is the reality and the reality is not great. So it's a tricky one because yes, on one level, you know, hope is something that may be never attainable, but yet hope is the thing that actually makes living what, what you're living bearable.

A (13:28)

Was there ever a chance with any of the people that you interviewed where you saw the hope begin to dim?

C (13:35)

I think that, yes, to a degree. I think, I think certainly now with Johnny, it's, I can see in his, you know, I can see that it's, you know, age is, isn't kind to anybody. Right.

B (13:50)

He wants to be a football player.

C (13:51)

He wants to be a football player.

A (13:52)

His dream is to be a football player.

C (13:54)

Yeah, he lives, eats, breathes, and his ident, that's his identity, you know, so the realization for Johnny is if, if that does ebb away and, and that does leave, then he'll have to reinvent himself. But, you know, there is still hope in other areas. Even if you don't play. There's, there's potential of coaching or something, but it's, but it's hard, I think with Brittany, it's, it's, it's toughest because where she lives, social mobility is so difficult. There's no, she's still in the Quad Cities and there aren't, there isn't a great bus network or so it's very hard to get around. And if you, if you, if you want to try and, you know, start a career in something, it's very, very difficult. With Kayleigh, it's, you know, she's just very good at sort of shifting her dreams. And so she'll, she'll, she understands that life doesn't necessarily work the way you'd like it to work. So what you have to do is change and adapt. And she's always adap, so she's one that kind of has, in her survival mode, adapts. So, but I guess, yes, to a degree, there'll be certain hopes and dreams she had that are no longer attainable. But, but yes, she adapts towards the currency of what she's doing.

B (15:15)

We're talking about the documentary Born Poor, with its director and producer, Jessa Newman. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of It.

A (15:32)

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm speaking with Jezza Newman, director and producer of the documentary Born Poor, which is the first episode of the new season of Frontline. Born Poor premieres tomorrow at 10pm on PBS stations. It'll also be on YouTube and at thepbs.org frontline as well as on the PBS app. It was really interesting seeing them as adults. I'm sure for you, after seeing them as Children grow into adults. Kaylee, for example, has found some success for herself in life. She owns a home, she supports herself with a job, but she's not necessarily in touch with her family, which is really quite interesting. And she calls it a lonely life in. In many ways. What did you make of that?

C (16:28)

Well, for Kaylee, the trouble is, is that, you know, her mother has her own, you know, battles in life and has had to overcome a lot herself and is still working through that. And so the difficulty is for Caylee, who has her own, as she describes it, ptsd, you know, from, you know, worrying about whether you're going to eat food the next day, worrying about whether you've. Whether you've got a roof over your head. I mean, you see her in the film, you know, lose a home, can't eat properly, and have to take a dog to the pound. So, I mean, she's. You can actually see the sort of traumas she's talking about. And the trouble is, you know, with very limited access to mental health support, she's dealing with those demons and troubles. And when her mother is also having to deal with her own things, it makes it very hard for her, and they kind of clash. So, you know, that was the thing for Kaylee, is she needs to sort of, you know, keep a certain distance for each. For each of them to heal properly, you know, through the things they've been through. But then also for Kaylee, she felt strongly that, you know, she sort of associates that childhood with the place she's at. So she decided she wanted to move to another state, and that was kind of her way of starting a clean slate with the new Kaylee. And. And obviously that has meant that she's a long way from her family now. It's not simply driving an hour or something, you know, so that's also created a distance between them.

B (18:04)

Yeah. You could see, watching the documentary, the role that her mother played in the life, in her life. She clearly loved her, but clearly her mother had issues of her own to deal with. And Kaylee decided, I'm not necessarily going to deal with that. I'm going to move forward. Which must have been a really hard decision.

C (18:26)

Yeah, it's incredibly hard. And Kaylee's also, you know, loves her mother and. And is very, you know, she. She wanted to make sure that, you know, she didn't want to say anything spiteful about her mother in the film or anything like that. You know, she wanted to be clear that it's a conscious decision by herself to find a way Forward and it was. And also her mother has, you know, she. She had a job that took her away a lot, driving trucks, and she's had other jobs. So she's trying to. To, you know, she's very busy. Anyway, they weren't. Kaylee had left home a while ago, so, you know, she wasn't living at home anyway. So there's already a disparate, you know, there's already space there, like, with many families. I mean, that's the thing today, many families are broken up and, and people are living on their own a lot. But I think for Kaylee, definitely, she was trying to find a way that she could try and sort of start afresh, start new and, And, and, and start. And she's hoping to start a new career as well. So she decided to move states and is now in Texas. So she's starting a new life there, and we'll see where that leads. Certainly she's not. She's not said, I never want to see my mother again. You know, she wants to retain that relationship. It's just about getting herself into a space where she's able to. And ready to re. You know, just to spend that time together again.

B (19:52)

As the characters in the film, as they grow older, they talk about the constant stress that they feel. Why do they continue to feel stress? This may sound like a stupid question, but why do they continue to feel stress? Is it what they felt when they were children? Does it carry it with them? Is it ptsd? What's at the root of it?

C (20:16)

At the root of it is, I think, for a lot of it. I think Brittany really articulates this well. It's, it's the. It's. It's the. They were determined not to re. Live the cycle that they grew up in, and they were determined to try in it. And then suddenly they have a realization that actually they haven't managed to do that and don't understand why, but then kind of do.

B (20:42)

Yeah. Yeah.

C (20:43)

You know, it's like. It's like I try. You know, Kaylee said, sorry, Brittany says, you know, I, I tried and tried, but I. I don't. I'm not sure. I just don't have the skills. I mean, if you spoke to any nonprofit organization or any. Or any Save the Children or anybody working in poverty, they would say, you know, these kids are hitting every. Every bullet point of why families and children stay in poverty. And what is this cycle of poverty we all talk about? It's because kids like Brittany, they have no one else around them. All they have is their family. If their family haven't managed to find a way out, how are the kids going to be equipped to find a way out unless there's someone else that can support them? And, and for, for Brittany, it's that realization that, you know, I did try, I, I did think about, you know, I have tried to get a job and I wasn't expecting to have a child so soon, but she goes through a traumatic experience which is revealed in the film, and that set her back. And so it, it's, it's the realization that they just don't have the skill sets. And it's simple things that we take for granted. Anyone that's been through an education, that's been through school, you don't even have to go university, but have parents who are in a professional sphere. There's simple things like, you know, planning and booking a bus ticket or train to somewhere or go, you know, putting a CV together, go. You'll, even if you don't know how to do it, you'll know someone that does, you know, mum or dad or have a friend who works in, you know, a factory or works, you know, as a doctor, and they can help and support you. These children don't have that, so they don't have anybody. So they're trying to do it themselves and try and make a life on their own. And I think that for the kids, they then start to realize that. And I think a lot of the stress comes from the fact that they really want to be able to do it, but they're not equipped to do it and they can't understand why.

A (22:49)

Out of the three people that you interviewed who sought, who could seek, who.

C (22:56)

Sought mental health, Kaylee sought mental health.

A (23:00)

Which is interesting because she moved away from her mom.

C (23:03)

Yeah. And, and she had, she had gone to, she. There was a period where her insurance covered it. So she doesn't have mental health support at the moment because she's moved states and she doesn't have the insurance in place. But I think that, you know, she's hoping to get that picked up again. But she had a period where she could, she, she got it. And it was actually that support that told, told her about the PTSD of poverty. That's how she lear it. And so she, she, she, she learned that there are areas of her childhood, like she says on camera as well, that she doesn't remember taking her dog to the pound. The only reason she knows she did it is because she knows it's in the film. Right, right.

A (23:41)

And they had to take the dog to the pound because they couldn't afford.

C (23:43)

To keep the dog or to keep the dog. Yes, sorry. And, and, and she only knows that exists because of the film. Right. And. But it's. The, it's. And, but it was through going to the therapy that she learned that is a normal thing that you will bl. Things that, you know, were, were very hard on you because otherwise your brain will just go into overload. And that's how you've, you know, and, and Kaylee has suffered from some depression at times, but how do you build your way out of that? And how do you equip yourself to be out of that? And sometimes your brain protects you, and that's one of them.

A (24:16)

When you meet these three people as adults, what was it like for you to meet them?

C (24:25)

It was, it was amazing. I mean, it. They haven't changed really, you know, who they are as people. They're still, I mean, amazing. I mean, Johnny's, I mean, his enthusiasm for life and dogged determination is, is just, you know, you just can't help but. But enjoy his company and his time. And, and Brittany is so sweet and she's so lovely and, and Kaylee is as well. And, and they're, and they're also very funny as well, so they're fun to be around. I actually really enjoyed making this one too because, you know, the, the, the connection with them and, and the fact that I was able to, to talk about some of these issues and they be able to be very intro, you know, introspective about it was really fascinating. But yeah, meeting them as adults was. Or young adults. I'm also. Brittany is the same age as my daughter, so, you know, I've grown up with my daughter growing up with. Alongside Brittany, if you like, at the same age and not far off Kaylee. And actually these children taught me to be a better parent because I interviewed Brittany and realized that I spent two hours talking to her on, on camera. I went home and realized I don't talk to my kids in the same way. I have a daughter and a son. I'm always too busy and I'm always parenting. So they come home with a story and they tell it to me and then I'll say, okay, okay, but you need to eat your tea because you've got to do your homework or, you know, or they're telling me something else and I'm like, okay, that's fine, but what you should have done is this or what you should have done is that. So I went home And I interviewed my daughter for two hours and it was absolutely fascinating to see the. I still have the film today and what I learned about penguins and polar ice caps, I had no idea. Her tiny little 10 year old brain. But from then on I've made it. I've been very conscious to make sure that whenever I was super busy and they needed something, I'd sort of stop myself and go, actually no, just give them a bit of time because you can't replace that time. And I think that that's something that they actually gave back to me. It wasn't, it was something that, you know, I feel very lucky that Brittany and Kaylee and Johnny taught that.

B (26:45)

Was there ever a time either in their childhood, their teenage years, when they asked you a question and you were kind of put on the spot?

C (26:59)

I mean, in the film Kaylee says, Brittany says you could be poor one day.

B (27:05)

That was, made me think about it and I thought, wow, did that happen? I wonder if that happened again.

C (27:10)

So today. Not really. Not, not. I mean the, the, the, the challenge always with, with these films is making sure that the relation. Obviously it's a strange relationship to have to, to keep, to stay with these people over this amount of years and, and retain that sort of distance that you're there in their lives. But I can't physically change anything because if I do, I'm changing the story for the viewers. Right. But I've always been very honest and true about that. And what's happened over the years is that we've managed to create this relationship where they understand the film, they kind of own it too. So no one's made them be in it, no one's made them do the update. But they trust how Lauren and I will manage their story so they know their story will be handled in a sensitive way. I won't use bits that might, you know, might not be right to tell the story. And so therefore they're happy to maintain this relationship where they know that it's it. I can't solve their problems because I can't, you know, a, I can't solve everybody's problems that you make films about. But equally I can't interfere because if I interfere, I'm not being honest to the viewer. And it's as important to be honest to the viewer who's watching this as it is to the contributors themselves. So actually I've never been asked of anything. I mean, the only thing that I've ever done is, is that obviously if we're out and it's a hot Day you've got to buy water or, you know, but that's normal practice. But, but yeah, no. The only other thing that Kaylee's ever asked for was some advice because she had an English boyfriend once. But I said that my daughter was probably the better person to spe, so I put her on the phone instead.

A (29:08)

What do you hope your film.

C (29:12)

How.

A (29:12)

Do you hope it might change someone's. Change their minds about people who are, quote, born poor? How do you want people to receive the film?

C (29:27)

I really hope people can see and understand what the poverty cycle is. It's a. Is a word that gets bounded around everywhere and people always quote it and talk about it, but no one actually dissects what it really is. And I think this film does. I think you truly see the trauma. It's understanding that, going hungry, not knowing if you've got a roof over your head. They are traumas. They are traumas that stick with you and they will play out in later life. So if you are suffering depression that goes untapped, why wouldn't you turn to alcohol or drugs, you know, as a crutch? You know, you could understand that, right? It shouldn't have to be that way, you know, and it's a, It's a tragedy when it is. But I want people to understand why people might end up like that. And it's because these are traumas that go unfixed. It's just the same, you know, as someone that might witness a horrific event or something. They are traumatized by it. It. And it's, it's accepted that you'll need counseling to get over that horrific event, you know, otherwise it'll stay with you. And it's the same with poverty. People need to understand, I hope people will see that, that these traumas, it needs help, it needs support. But these are really intelligent, smart, clever kids growing up in poverty and they're, you know, Johnny and Kaylee and Brittany aren't alone. They're not the only ones in America. There are thousands of them, just the thousands of Kaylee's and Johnny's and Brittany's, who, with the right support and the right opportunity, can be really amazing members of. Amazing and productive members of society. You know, it, but it is, it's, yeah, getting that, Getting that sort of world of PTSD and, and, and trauma out there that people. So people can understand it a bit better.

A (31:19)

I've been speaking with Jessa Newman, director and producer of the documentary Born Poor, which is the first episod the new season of Frontline. Born Poor premieres tomorrow night at 10pm on PBS stations. Thank you for your time today.

C (31:33)

Thank you very much.

D (31:34)

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.