All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: Celebrating Wifredo Lam at MoMA – “Wifredo Lam: When I Don’t Sleep, I Dream”

Date: November 13, 2025

Overview

This episode of All Of It centers on MoMA’s retrospective exhibition, “Wifredo Lam: When I Don’t Sleep, I Dream.” Host Alison Stewart is joined by exhibition co-curators Christophe Cherix (MoMA director) and Beverly Adams to discuss Lam’s life, multicultural legacy, the challenges of assembling the show, and the art world’s shifting relationship toward his work. The conversation unfolds Lam’s journey from his early days in Cuba and Europe to his pivotal return home, exploring his complex identity and revolutionary artistic practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Relationship Between Wifredo Lam and MoMA

(03:36–05:00)

• MoMA began collecting Lam’s work early, acquiring pieces as early as 1939.
• Alfred Barr, MoMA’s first director, purchased “Mother and Child” after seeing Lam’s Paris show, followed by key works from Cuba and New York.
• The collection demonstrates MoMA’s early international vision and commitment to emerging artists.

Quote:
“...there was a commitment for emerging artists, but there was also an international vision.”
— Christophe Cherix (04:33)

2. The “Prominent Limbo” of Lam’s Art

(05:00–06:19)

• Lam’s most famous work, The Jungle, was often displayed in MoMA’s lobby rather than main galleries, reflecting difficulties integrating a transnational, multicultural artist into a narrow narrative of modernism.
• His art did not fit the linear trajectory the museum was constructing for modern art.

Quote:
“...he didn’t fit tidily into any of the categories that the museum was trying to create and maintain at that time.”
— Beverly Adams (05:53)

3. Assembling the Exhibition: Global Search and Complex Logistics

(06:19–07:42)

• The works are scattered internationally: 59 lenders, including 39 private collectors and 20 institutions.
• The most challenging piece: Lam’s enormous, fragile, 15-foot-long work on paper—its first New York display since the 1950s.

Quote:
“It became for us, absolutely a priority to bring it back and to show it for the first time in New York.”
— Christophe Cherix (07:20)

4. Exhibition Highlights & Overlooked Late Work

(07:42–08:31)

• Aim to move visitors beyond The Jungle to Lam’s later, more experimental works.
• The Bruce paintings (late 1950s, verging on abstraction) are shown in New York for the first time, revealing new sides of Lam’s career.

Quote:
“One of the goals of the exhibition was to bring people past the Jungle into the later work.”
— Beverly Adams (07:49)

5. Lam’s Identity and Cultural Synthesis

(09:01–10:31)

• Lam’s roots: Cuban, Congolese, Chinese.
• Curators hired a genealogist; discovered his mother was born free, illustrating closeness to slavery’s legacy.
• Lam’s style is an urgent fusion of Afro-Caribbean, European, and Chinese cultural threads—a transnational artist expressing solidarity with his people.

Quote:
“He found his very identity by reconnecting not only to that culture that he hadn’t forgotten... That makes the singularity of this work: to bring all those threads together.”
— Christophe Cherix (10:19)

6. The Picasso Connection

(10:31–11:57)

• Friendship and support, not teacher-student: Picasso empowered Lam, encouraged exhibitions, and protected his work during WWII.
• Their relationship was a meeting of equals and mutual inspiration.

Quote:
“He empowered him like a mentor, but not like a teacher... he also helped him in those kinds of ways. And they were friends throughout their entire life.”
— Beverly Adams (11:15)

7. Exhibition Film: Connecting Narrative Threads

(11:57–13:14)

• The exhibit concludes with a documentary film, offering behind-the-scenes insights and interviews with Lam’s family and museum staff.
• Intended to deepen audience understanding and leave them with context and humanity.

Quote:
“We wanted the work to be first... but after, allow people to go a bit deeper and to leave the museum with some of the discovery that we made throughout the exhibition.”
— Christophe Cherix (12:46)

8. Personal Tragedy and Political Commitment

(13:14–14:21)

• Lam’s art was shaped by loss: the death of his wife and young child, his involvement in the Spanish Civil War.
• His personal struggles fueled his dedication to social causes and inclusive politics, echoing through his painting.

Quote:
“All of those experiences helped sort of forge his convictions... he feels terribly responsible as a starving artist that he couldn't provide health care and medications for them.”
— Beverly Adams (13:39)

9. The Pivotal Return to Cuba

(14:21–15:31)

• WWII forced Lam back to a poorer Cuba: this “reconnection” catalyzed his mature style.
• Empathy, local culture, tropical landscape, and Afro-Caribbean spirituality began to infuse his art, giving it purpose beyond the personal.

Quote:
“That give him a voice, and he understands that his work is not going to be just about his voice, but the voice of his people.”
— Christophe Cherix (15:04)

10. The Jungle: A Material and Spiritual Icon

(15:31–17:11)

• Painted on humble brown wrapping paper (kraft paper) due to wartime shortages—a technique Lam brought from Spain and retained out of both necessity and choice.
• The medium enabled freedom and scale; became central to all his great experimental statements.

Quote:
“It really becomes something, a kind of freedom for him to work on this, with this material.”
— Beverly Adams (16:58)

11. Spiritual and Political Symbolism in Lam’s Art

(17:11–18:57)

• Lam’s art directly weaves in motifs from Afro-Cuban faith and culture.
• His paintings merge magical and real, spiritual and civic, with forms drawn from the natural world and mythic figures protecting and surprising the viewer.

Quote:
“You’ll see in his work, particularly in Cuba, a number of motifs that really come directly out of the Cuban religion, the Afro-Caribbean religion, you can even identify.”
— Christophe Cherix (17:42)

12. Later Work: Shadow and Theatricality

(18:57–21:06)

• After WWII, postwar Europe’s devastation and commodification of African art disturbed Lam.
• He shifted from tropical color to darker, theatrical compositions, seeking to recontextualize the diaspora’s visual culture in epic, spiritually rich paintings.

Quote:
“He doesn’t want to be objectified... he wants to sort of find a way to recontextualize African art of the diaspora in a new kind of way.”
— Beverly Adams (20:20)

13. The Aim: Re-centering Lam’s Artistic Legacy

(21:06–23:00)

• The curators hope to install Lam “among his peers” in the center, not the periphery, of modern art history—a model for today’s artists, especially those with complex, hybrid identities.

Quote:
“We wanted to give him a place in the 20th century, and not in the margins... He is a transnational figure that embodies... so many of the ideas that are so alive today.”
— Christophe Cherix (21:14)

• Beverly Adams underscores the exhibition’s wish for rediscovery, free from the old labels and gallery placement, highlighting Lam’s influence on poets, artists, and future generations.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He was a transnational artist. He was from Cuba, he was black, he was Chinese... He made this amazing picture which they recognize as important, important enough to hang and not keep in storage.”
  — Beverly Adams (05:32)

• “It became for us, absolutely a priority to bring it back and to show it for the first time in New York.”
  — Christophe Cherix (07:20, on reuniting rarely-seen works)

• “One of the goals of the exhibition was to bring people past The Jungle into the later work.”
  — Beverly Adams (07:49)

• “That give him a voice, and he understands that his work is not going to be just about his voice, but the voice of his people.”
  — Christophe Cherix (15:04)

Segment Timestamps

• Start–03:36: Introduction, Book Club Update, Show context
• 03:36–05:00: MoMA’s early acquisition of Lam’s works
• 05:00–06:19: The Jungle’s “prominent limbo” and Lam’s uneasy museum fit
• 06:19–07:42: Exhibition logistics and challenges sourcing art
• 07:42–08:31: Exhibition goals and newly displayed “Bruce paintings”
• 09:01–10:31: Lam’s heritage, identity, and cultural fusion
• 10:31–11:57: Lam’s relationship with Picasso
• 11:57–13:14: Exhibit’s concluding film
• 13:14–14:21: Personal tragedy and political engagement in art
• 14:21–15:31: Lam’s transformative return to Cuba
• 15:31–17:11: The Jungle and the embrace of nontraditional materials
• 17:11–18:57: Spiritual and political meaning in Lam’s art
• 18:57–21:06: Postwar years, changed vision, and darker works
• 21:06–23:00: Re-centering Lam’s legacy and closing thoughts

Conclusion

This illuminating episode provides a comprehensive, accessible exploration of Wifredo Lam’s complex identity and enduring artistic relevance. Lam emerges as a foundational figure whose multicultural vision, rooted in trauma, resilience, and spiritual vitality, resonates strongly in today’s dialogues about art, heritage, and belonging. The curators’ work at MoMA honors this legacy by finally placing Lam where he belongs—at the vibrant heart of global modernism.