Alison Stewart (3:45)

I have to ask, what did you learn that people really wanted from a match versus what they said they wanted from a match?

Celine Song (3:52)

Well, I think that at the end of the day, it really does come down to the way that we want to feel loved. And I think that we also want to feel loved in a way to feel valuable, you know, even in situations where maybe we don't really feel that way about ourselves. And I think that I saw the way that so much of being a matchmaker was kind of like being a stockbroker for stock. But part of the job was to really assess everyone's value and then to try to match them up with other people of similar value. And I think that, you know, so much of the conversation ended up being about the numbers, the height, weight, income, age. And I think that at the time, I was married, and something that I felt in that time was that, well, the way that love feels, the way that marriage feels, the way that all of these, you know, how my heart works, seem to have nothing to do with any of these numbers or even feeling valuable.

Alison Stewart (4:48)

Yeah, it was sort of interesting because in the film, people are very blunt with what they want. I don't want somebody who likes cats. I don't want somebody with a political leaning. Why did you think it made sense? Or. I'm sure you heard this as well. Why do people want to place a Starbucks order for a maze?

Celine Song (5:06)

Well, I feel like. Because part of, like, paying for a Matchmaker or paying for anything we're so used to when you're paying for a luxury experience, right. What that means is that you're going to get what you want. So it's more like, you know, it's kind of like a car, right? You're kind of saying, like, well, how do you get a car with all these qualities in it? Well, you pay more, right? So I think that there is a really funny thing where I think the world and the way that the world works has taught that we can also start asking for that in terms of people and not just people. People that we supposedly will love and grow old with and be together with.

Alison Stewart (5:42)

One woman in the film says, I'm ready to settle. What does settle mean?

Celine Song (5:48)

Well, I feel like she is saying something because, like, she of course grew up with so much dreams that are built in. In us through media and everything about, like, what she should get, what she deserv. And I think about this so much because the movie is so much about objectification and commodification of ourselves and each other. And then the way that we place ourselves and compare ourselves against everyone else. And this is like. This is what we're talking about when we talk about the dating market or like the marriage market, right? Which is like the market. The market. Exactly, the market. And it's like, so part of our language about dating that it's now inseparable from the way we talk about dating. But of course, this, I would say, tracks back to Jane Austen or the Victorian romance days where we would talk about the marriage market or dating market really openly. But instead of the garden parties and, you know, the little communities, that the dating market existed. Now this kind of turning ourselves into merchandise, turning ourselves into commodity in the dating market is now immigrated into the phone. And now the whole world, a global dating market, is now in our phones. And you can have access to it and compare yourself to it. You can be like, okay, that person got Botox. And, you know, should I get it? Like, there's so much of placing ourselves as an object against other objects that are people.

Alison Stewart (7:20)

So much to write about.

Celine Song (7:21)

Yeah, yeah, so much to write about. And that's really how I felt. I mean, as I was leaving the job after six months, which I'll tell you why, why, why I left, but the reason why. And after I left, I feel like on my way out, I remember thinking, oh, I think one day I'm going to write about it. And I've been. And I been trying to since I left the job in the 2000 and tens. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (7:42)

I'm speaking with Celine Song, the writer and director of the story of a matchmaker who has to make a choice that will affect the rest of her life. Let's talk about Lucy. She's our protagonist. And there's this early scene in the film where a bride who's having a little bit of a meltdown on her wedding day wants to talk to Lucy. And Lucy marches in there like a general going into battle. She's got the bridesmaids behind her. They're kind of in a V shape as they're walking into the room. Sort of like her regiments with her. How did you think about staging that moment when she had to talk to this bride about what marriage might mean?

Celine Song (8:19)

Well, in the script I wrote, it's like a president being ushered into the situation room. She's the fixer. And I think that's really what's true about some of these client facing jobs. Generally speaking, I don't think it's. Of course, I think in this movie it's of a matchmaker. But I think that there are a lot of us who have jobs where it's client facing. And what that means is that when the client is in crisis, you're showing up to help and you're the person who can help. And a part of it is that she cannot reveal how she feels about marriage and her heart and her own dating life. It's all about the client.

Alison Stewart (8:58)

So what does she really feel about love, Lucy really feel about love and marriage?

Celine Song (9:03)

Well, I think that you can in the film later, as the film grows deeper and deeper, you know, through its runtime, you will get to that. You know, what Lucy really believes, and I think that it's part of it is that she has real trouble with it because she's not sure of the way it lasts. She's not sure if it is worth the difficulty or the pain. And I think she has trouble having hope for it. Like I think a lot of us.

Alison Stewart (9:33)

She goes through an arc really with how she feels about it. When the movie first starts though, what's her take on love?

Celine Song (9:42)

I think her take on love is that she prefers to not deal in it. And she's kind of completely outsourced anything she might want from it into her clients, into her job, which I think is like a lot of us working women can relate to. Of like. Well, you know what, I'm just not going to deal with my own dating life, but instead I'm going to put all my energy, all my obsession with intimacy and dating and love into my work. And then I'm gonna live vicariously through my clients.

Alison Stewart (10:16)

You as the writer. In thinking about Lucy's backstory, why does she become a matchmaker?

Celine Song (10:23)

Well, I think that she. It's probably a similar reason as I did, which is a financial reason. Right. It's kind of a great job for anybody who will walk into a room and feel like they have some empathy to give or some of a people skill to use. And so I feel like she probably was trying to. And also, you know, the dating industries in general are female dominated fields. The few female dominated, you know, industries. So I feel like she probably felt like she could slip right in and really start to make some money.

Alison Stewart (10:59)

It's really. She's very straightforward about money. She disclosed her salary like that, no problem. Some people are like, I make a round. So and so how does this play into her beliefs about money and what another person can offer her financially?

Celine Song (11:16)

Well, I think that that when it comes to the way that everybody's salary and also everybody's living situation, everybody's rent, those are going to be said out loud in my movie and in Materialist, something that I really wanted is to really name names and number numbers. And I think it's because of the way that I felt like that was most honest thing. And I feel like it's interesting because I feel like we might be, I think people, we are even more comfortable being honest about. We're comfortable being honest about a lot of things. Amazingly, money is still a place where I think we feel like we must be polite. And I do think that it comes from the mores that were built into us from the wealthy. Because I feel like it's like, well, who doesn't want you to know how much they make? Your boss. Right? Your boss does not want you to know how much they make. Because of course, because if they do, then of course resentment will build and then we'll start to really be able to place our salary against theirs. So I think that's something about Lucy being so exposing with it. I think it has to do with her relationship to money and how she decided that, to be frank with it, is the way that she's going to be free from it. And I think it does come from her working class background.

Alison Stewart (12:32)

You know, I have a writerly question for you. So obviously there are socioeconomic shades in this film. And in the film, Lucy places an order for. For a coke and a beer. It's great. It introduces another character and as the it sat down, I thought Wouldn't she up her game at a fancy wedding?

Celine Song (12:50)

Of course. Well, I think that she would. And then I think she did for all her dates with Pedro Pascal's character, Harry, who is a wealthy guy. But the thing is, I feel like in that moment, she is trying to actually recruit him. Harry, Pedro Pascal. And something that she, of course, wants to do is she wants to show him the real her. Because she doesn't want him to think that he's going to. He should date her. Cause, I mean, just moments before Harry asked, like, are you hitting on me? So I think she's saying, like, no, no, no, no. I'm trying to recruit you. Cause I'm a working person who's trying to get you onto the service. So I'm not the girl you want to date. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (13:32)

Harry, played by Pedro Pascal, he's wealthy man, he's in finance. And he sort of overhears Lucy giving her pitch to women at her brother's wedding, which she set up. What does he find interesting about her pitch as a matchmaker to the women in the room?

Celine Song (13:47)

Well, I think that she sees. He sees her. And how. I mean, I want to say how smart she is when it comes to. You know, I think he feels that she speaks the same language. And we see that they do. For example, their conversation in Nobu, it's about how they are really acknowledging how much financial language they know how to speak. They talk in business, they talk in deals. And I think that they. He kind of, like, sees a kindred spirit in her.

Alison Stewart (14:16)

Harry seems like a super nice person. He's a unicorn in her eyes. Looking at him as a prospect, we should say. And it comes up in the film, we're not gonna spoil anything. But would he be that great if he didn't have that kind of money?

Celine Song (14:29)

Right, Right. Well, I think that the thing that is very interesting is that, like, well, how can you separate something from that person? Right. Because I feel like the kind of job you have or the kind of a point of view you might have, everything is a part of you. So I think that's just where it becomes a complicated thing when it comes to treating ourselves as merchandise or as people. There's a character in the film who says, I'm not merchandise. I'm a person. And I think that that's the key to my whole movie because I think that, well, you can talk about Harry Pedro's character as merchandise. And then you can, of course, look at all these different assets, all these different qualifications that he has, or you can see As a person. And then you realize that, no, every single part of him is. It's all holistically who he is. And he is also trying to work out how to be a person in the middle of everything that he has. And he's just scared. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (15:30)

I'm not going to give away any of your spoilers. I decided that we. Upstairs, half our room had their hands over their ears because they hadn't seen it yet. And the other half, we were talking about it. My guest is Celine Song. The name of the film is the Materialists. All right? John is played by Chris Evans. He's an actor who wants to make it. He doesn't have an agent. He doesn't necessarily go on commercials because they're not for him. Fill in the blanks. Is John based on anyone you know?

Celine Song (15:56)

Well, I feel like it's based on so many really talented actors that I know who. I think. That, of course, is very difficult when you and I think about this so much. I think so many actors, they become actors because they were the best actors in college, right? They were the best actors in high school. They're the best actors in college. And then, of course, when they graduate, I think that you're kind of faced with how the. How vicious the marketplace is for actors. And this is actually connected to the way I would talk about my actors, my three actors, Dakota, Pedro and Chris, which is that, you know, I think all three of them understand the central message of the film, which is that I'm not merchandise, I'm a person. I think this is true about all actors, right? All actors understand what it's like to be treated like merchandise. I mean, they call it cattle call, right? They call. Right? They call those auditions cattle call, right? They call it the meat market. And then, of course, you know, you go through the humiliating process of auditioning, auditioning, auditioning. Sometimes they're just told that, like, yeah, but you're not as valuable as, I don't know, somebody who's another theater actor or another TV actor who became a theater actor, right? So I think that some of those things are really heartbreaking. And I think that John in the film has gotten quite bitter spirit of it. And I think that's really what's hard about it. It's what's hard about. I mean, it's what. Generally, I think what's hard about poverty in general. But I feel like it's also hard when you have a dream, you know, and you have a dream, and then every day it feels like, you know, the world is telling you that your dream is never going to come true. And, you know, you live in New York City, which is a city of so much cynicism that we need to have to survive. And then of course, this, like, endless well of romanticism, too, because, like, it's so romantic for all of us to be here and live our lives and get day jobs and then be like, well, I wanna, you know, I live in New York so that I can one day maybe, you know, get my big break, you know.

Alison Stewart (18:02)

Yeah, he's in a play and it was quick, but I think it's a play that you actually wrote.

Celine Song (18:09)

It is a play that I wrote.

Alison Stewart (18:10)

All right. I saw your name and I was like, wait a minute.

Celine Song (18:12)

Yes. Yes, it is a play I wrote.

Alison Stewart (18:14)

What was the name of the play?

Celine Song (18:14)

Tom and Eliza.

Alison Stewart (18:16)

Yeah, and that was the actual. That was the actual language of the play when you were on stage. Oh, yeah.

Celine Song (18:21)

Those are the first lines of the actual play. And the play had an amazing world premiere directed by Knuth Adams, starring Elizabeth Bent and Daniel Kulik. And we were basically, you know, doing it at Jack. New York City. Do you know that space? No.

Alison Stewart (18:38)

Where is that?

Celine Song (18:39)

It's like a. It's like a place with. Anyways, it's in downtown Brooklyn. And I really, you know, love working on that play. But that play is a 50 minute that start from these two people's first date to the night they die together. So I would say that it was just thematically correct. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (19:00)

How did you go about your casting process?

Celine Song (19:03)

Well, to me it's like. Well, I talk about it always as a piece of matchmaking because I don't write for actors. I think some. Many filmmakers do write for actors, but I don't really write for actors. Write the characters and then I go out like a matchmaker in search of their soulmate. So so much of it is like, you know, part of, like, you know, releasing past lives and, you know, going and doing the award circuit, which was, I feel so lucky to be able to do part of that, is that I get to meet a lot of actors. And of course, like, you know, like at the time, because the actors were watching past lives, you know, they wanted to meet me. So I was just sitting down with a lot of amazing actors and I feel like it's just. Is like a little bit of lightning, like just falling in love, where I sat down with Dakota and I think within like five minutes. I don't believe in love at first sight, but I believe in love at first conversation. So during the first conversation with her, I think at some point it just occurred to me, like, Celine, this is Lucy. Celine. And then by the end of it, after she got up from lunch, and then before I got up from lunch, I texted 8 24, my producers, and I said, I think I found out Lucy.

Alison Stewart (20:21)

I was wondering about this cast because they do work so well together. Was there anything that any of the actors brought to the character which caused you as the writer to change? Something in the script? Something that Dakota brought or something that Pedro brought to Harry? Was there something about their portrayal or how they dug into the character that you thought, you know what, I could change that a little bit?

Celine Song (20:48)

Bit? Well, I think that, honestly, I mean so much, right. Because I feel like they show up and then they, you know, I mean, it would happen, of course, in rehearsal even. We would just talk about, like, a certain scene and the way they were breaking up or then breaking up the scene. And we're also, like, talking about it. Like, even in the middle of us talking about it, I would just look at their face and I would just know that we would need a certain level, for example, or, like, we would be. There would be a simpler way to do it because the way that they are is going to speak to it or the way they're talking about a line will speak to it. So that was happening throughout the whole rehearsal process. But on set, I feel like then, you know, they're in their costume and they're there, and some of it is happening there. And of course, some of it is happening in the edit, too. So every piece of it, they're building it because after it's just text on the page, they have to fully embody these characters. And they're thinking more than. Of course, gets to a point that. Where they're thinking about their own characters as much or more than me, Right. And then it becomes so special. But they're. Oh, you know, what I would say is there are a couple of jokes that Dakota pitched that were so good that are now in the movie, and I just feel like. I'll give you one. What is it? Oh, oh, you know, there is a line where. Oh, no, I don't want to spoil that. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. But I feel like there are a couple lines. Oh, I mean, for example, it's like, what's a couple inches? Like, I feel like it used to be a little bit more professional. And then, of course, she was like, I just wanna. I just wanna find something where it's like a little, like. Like a little sharper And I think that we were starting to pitch each other lines and I think that in that moment we were like, what's a couple inches? And then also the way that Dakota did it is what made it like so funny, you know? So I think that that would be how it is. Yeah. Oh, there are a couple other lines, but I like, they will give it away, giving away the movie. So I'll tell you about it some in a much later interview. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (22:55)

You know, directors have to constantly make choices on the set. What was a choice that you had to make that maybe ruffled writer Celine a little bit. But director Celine said, I have to do this for this movie.

Celine Song (23:12)

Well, I mean, I think that the. I really think of directing as an extension of writing. So the truth is, like, I don't have the same kinds of maybe like rubbing up against each other that maybe the. I don't know. I feel like my writer and my director are really in sync because my director is really showing up in service of the writer.

Alison Stewart (23:34)

Right, Interesting.

Celine Song (23:35)

But I think it's coming from the fact that I'm a playwright first. Right. And usually the playwright is the person that the director and then the production is serving. It's the writer first medium. And in film, of course, it's a filmmaker, it's a director first medium. But still, because I think because of my background, I'm always showing up as a director to serve the writer. So I don't think I really have that kind of a thing. The thing that I know is really true is that I feel like making decisions every day. Some of it is about discovering what the writer wanted as the director and then like realizing that like, oh, there's, there's a more elegant way to handle that without lines. Or like, oh, there's a better way to handle that in a way that's going to make the writer even happier. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (24:25)

When did you write this?

Celine Song (24:26)

I wrote this after I finished working on Past Lives, after I finished like all the post production and everything. Those. The summer of 2022 and there was a little period before Sundance 2023. Past lives started its life. So there was like a fun like six month period where I was going a little bit crazy because. Because I was like, I knew I was a filmmaker and I knew I had to made a movie, but nobody else knew. And I was just waiting for Sundance to happen. So my life begins. Right.

Alison Stewart (25:01)

That's such an interesting time in a person's life.

Celine Song (25:04)

Oh, yeah. Because I'm like, you know, like I'm, I'm So nervous and I have so much anticipation. But it's like. But like, I still have to wait for the festival, you know. So it was like just like a six month of, like a little bit of, like, I don't know, I felt a little bit out of my mind. And in that time, I was like, okay, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna try to, in these six months, crack something that is going to be my next movie. So I wanted to write my next movie at that time. And then I was. And then I thought, you know, well, what's a story that I always wanted to figure out? And I think that I. Then I thought back to the time I worked as a matchmaker, and I was like, I'm just going to figure this out. So, I mean, so the whole time that I was releasing Past Lives and, you know, going through that incredible, like, journey of, like, you know, going through, like, past lives entire my. My debut films, like, entire life, I knew what my next next movie was going to be. So it was always a little secret that I would walk into everything with. I'll be like, I know how my next movie is. It's going to be materialist, you know.

Alison Stewart (26:09)

Celine, what did you learn from Past Lives that proved to be useful to you on this film?

Celine Song (26:16)

Well, I think that honestly, how to Make a Movie, because before Past Lives, I didn't know how to make a movie. So I think that I would say, like, it wasn't just like one or two things, it was like the whole thing. I think that I just knew. I just didn't know how to make a movie before Past Lives. And then for Materialist, I did know how to make at least one movie. So I think that in that way, the other thing that I know is. Go ahead.

Alison Stewart (26:40)

I'm saying, like, what does that mean for you? If you knew how to make it before you did it? Yeah, you made this beautiful movie. You didn't know how you do it. And now. Okay, now what do I know about making a movie?

Celine Song (26:51)

Well, just the process. Because, like, you know, like, I think all art making, I think that. And I'm sure so many, you know, artists and, you know, writers, people who come on this show will tell you the same thing. The process is what makes the, you know, like, what everybody sees is the product, quote, unquote, it's the end of a process. But for me, as somebody who's making something, the making of it, the process of it is the art, right? So it's an act. So I think that I Didn't know how to do the act and then I learned how to do the act. But I feel like the other part of it that I really learned beyond just like how to make a movie. And I mean that and I mean that pretty literally as like, as the verb that it is. Like how do you like wake up every day, go on set, what to do, how to run a day. So it's like to like, you know, how to edit, how to editing work, how does post production work? So to me it's like that's what I mean by making a movie. But beyond all of that, something that I know from making past lives is that the theme of love is completely universal and that it is entirely worthy of cinema. I think that it is something that I felt. It's really funny because I feel like it wouldn't matter who you are, you could be the, you know, like the toughest looking guy and that I would talk to at. On a small Irish festival. But even you are going to be interested in love and matters of the heart. Love, dating, relationship, marriage, matters of the heart. Everybody's so obsessed with it and into it and is curious about it and want to talk about it because it's a great mystery of our lives and it's a great trauma that visits us, even the most ordinary of us. We don't have to be the most extraordinary people in the world to do this one thing in our lives that is completely extraordinary and entirely miraculous. And I think that's something that I learned releasing past lives is that it's really just a matter of if you're embarrassed to talk about it. Really. I think that's really what it is because I feel like I would just. The only difference that I would feel everybody would want to talk about love and their own love life when I was releasing Past Lives, but it would just be the difference of who whispers it to me and who is proud to talk about it. So I think that it's just a matter of. I mean it's funny, but it's real. But I feel like so the. So it's not a question of like whether you're. You are interested in the matters of the heart and cinema from the heart. But I think that it's also the question of like, well, how comfortable are you to really get real with it or to really dive in and to really say like, yes, I think love is worthy of talking about that love is an important theme in my life and that love is worthy of such cinema.

Alison Stewart (29:39)

Your husband wrote Challengers, Justin Kriskus he was here, actually. Do you consult one another or is that separation of church and state?

Celine Song (29:48)

No, I mean, I feel like it's so much more, you know, like he reads my first drafts. Yeah. And I read his first drafts. Like the really raw, like not ready to show anybody kind of travels.

Alison Stewart (30:00)

Oh, you love each other.

Celine Song (30:02)

Yeah, of course. And then of course a part of it is that we also have to. Something that's true is that like, you know, we would be as brutal with each other the way that we are brutal with ourselves. And that's how you can trust. And this has been true for. We were married for now we've been married for nine years. We've been together for 2012. So what is that?

Alison Stewart (30:27)

Thirteen.

Celine Song (30:27)

Thirteen years. Yeah, so. And I think. But it was happening from the year one. Just how. And I think the re really built their relationship off of the part of us that's like a colleagues too. So I feel like it's like. Yeah. So it's not really church and state in that way. It is church and state when it comes to the business of it. Or like we wouldn't work together. Yeah. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (30:49)

The name of the film is Materialist. I've been speaking with this writer and director, Celine Song. Thank you for coming to the studio.

Celine Song (30:55)

Thank you for having me. This was so great. What a great conversation.

Ira Flatow (30:59)

This is Ira Flato, host of Science for Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost. Foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.