Podcast Summary: Chloé Zhao on 'Hamnet' and Shakespeare

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Chloé Zhao, Oscar-nominated director and co-writer of Hamnet
Date: March 10, 2026
Episode Theme:
An in-depth conversation with Chloé Zhao about her Oscar-nominated adaptation of Hamnet. The episode explores the creative process of adapting Maggie O’Farrell’s novel for the screen, Zhao’s collaboration with the author, her approach to depicting Shakespeare and his wife Agnes as real, complex individuals, and the film’s portrayal of grief, marriage, gendered intuition, and artistry.

Main Theme and Episode Overview

The episode centers on the adaptation of Hamnet, a film focused on the marital partnership of William Shakespeare and Agnes (Anne) Hathaway in the aftermath of their son’s death. It examines the creative choices behind translating the novel into cinema, themes of grief and connection, and Chloé Zhao’s unique working methods, both as a director and collaborator.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Impressions and World-Building (03:08-03:42)

• Chloé Zhao’s Initial Love for the Novel:
  • “I love the world building. I love the little intimate little moments of everyday life, domesticity, but also how grand and cosmic it feels because the way he connects the characters to nature and to the world that is unseen.” — Chloé Zhao (03:14)
• The juxtaposition of the intimate and the cosmic stood out as the heart of Zhao’s interest.

2. Collaboration with Maggie O’Farrell (03:49-06:08)

• Zhao’s process was voice-note driven, often impromptu and intuitive, sending long, looping messages to O’Farrell in Scotland.
  • “I tend to talk in a spiral shape...my point will show up...But I don’t always go in knowing what I’m going to say. It’s a feeling, an intuition.” — Chloé Zhao (04:11)
  • Memorable anecdote: Once Zhao sent a 58-minute voice note, leading O’Farrell’s daughter to ask what podcast she was listening to (04:42).
• The creative exchange was organic: ideas presented as “seeds” that O’Farrell would develop and return.
  • “She’s my bridge to the wild forest beyond the garden. That’s her world. I don’t have access to that.” — Chloé Zhao (05:48)

3. Challenges of Adaptation (06:08-07:43)

• First time adapting a novel (as opposed to non-fiction).
• The process likened to an hourglass: condensing the story down to its essence, then letting it expand again on screen.
  • “So much is about taking things out and be very clear on what...the path we want to walk...sometimes that means letting go some sceneries. Really beautiful ones.” — Chloé Zhao (07:29)

4. Portraying William and Agnes: Research and Casting (07:43-10:49)

• Research primarily came alive through casting and rehearsal, focusing on bringing characters into the present moment with actors.
  • “My research is on the day. It’s almost like the research happens all the time until we say cut at the end of the day.” — Chloé Zhao (08:46)
• On casting Jessie Buckley as Agnes:
  • “She’s an artist herself...she has that same compulsion to create in order to survive in this world the way Shakespeare does.”
  • “Jesse is looking for that language, that lost language, as an artist, as an actress, and also as a woman.” — Chloé Zhao (09:20-09:56)

5. Agnes’s Special Sensitivity & The Notion of “Witch” (10:49-13:31)

• On “witchiness” as misunderstood feminine intuition:
  • “The word witch...has been quite misunderstood. What is a weather witch, for example? It’s just somebody who’s taken their time to watch the weather, who are a bit more sensitive...It’s just a level of sensitivity.” — Chloé Zhao (11:09)
  • “...Modern life does shut down that sensitivity...particularly for women, we were born more so with that sensitivity. And that’s our power.” (12:10)
• The filmmaking process itself attempted to follow Agnes’s sensitivity, focusing on intuition and mystery rather than pure logic.

6. Marriage, Grief, and the Core Relationship (14:38-16:34)

• Will and Agnes as Complements:
  • Will: structure, control; Agnes: wildness, intuition.
  • “They’re very different...but you understand why they needed each other. So he was all about structure...Her wildness is full display...she’s looking for someone who can hold all of her and accept her and see her for who she is.” — Chloé Zhao (15:17-16:19)

7. Tantric Practice, Embodied Performance & Gendered Energy (17:27-19:47)

• Zhao uses principles from tantric practice with her actors to unlock both feminine and masculine energies.
  • “It’s for us to show a full spectrum of human condition and experiences...to allow them to physically embody the energy of their gender self to the full extreme and giving consent and safety for them to interact...That’s how the universe is created.” — Chloé Zhao (17:46-19:17)
• Performance is created in a “spiral shape,” not a straight line—making space for surprises.

8. Humanizing Shakespeare (19:47-21:15)

• Will is depicted not as a literary icon but as a real man.
  • “Not hard at all, because he’s just a man. And that’s the thing...But at the end of the day, biologically, we have to eat. You know, we will die. We will die. And so I think that’s actually very easy for me.” — Chloé Zhao (20:03)
• Audience response: Some only realized he was Shakespeare late in the film—Zhao saw this as both a compliment and a marketing challenge.

9. Childbirth, the Wisdom of the Body, and Death (21:15-24:14)

• Dual birthing scenes:
  • First involves surrender to nature; second is harder, more communal.
  • “The body knows how to be born, how to give birth, how to make love, and how to die. I also recently trained as a death doula.” — Chloé Zhao (21:31-22:12)
• On death and grief in historical context:
  • Referencing O’Farrell’s perspective: even when child mortality was high, “losing a child is anything less than catastrophic...people’s hearts weren’t broken over and over again...” (23:42-24:14)

10. Grief and the Creative Process (24:58-27:17)

• Grief as an engine for empathy, art, and connection.
  • “Grief is something much bigger than us had designed us to have for a reason. Because without grief, there’s no empathy and there’s no love.” — Chloé Zhao (24:16)
• Artistic creation (Will’s play, the film itself) becomes a “container” that holds and shapes chaos and suffering.

11. On-Set Ritual: Dancing Away the Day (27:17-29:00)

• At the end of tough shoot days, cast and crew would dance, sometimes in the middle of emotional scenes, as a purposeful ritual.
  • “Emotions is energy, motion...all you really need is to shake it off...when you start dancing, you go into your body, and then the body’s gonna do what it needs to do, and you have to let go of the control.” — Chloé Zhao (27:33)
• The dance becomes a communal way to process and release the day’s emotional work.

12. What Zhao Hopes Audiences Take Away (and Talk About) (29:00-29:44)

• Zhao hopes audiences find new safety and openness to share emotions after watching the film.
  • “If they could share a little bit about themselves...say to each other and to themselves, I see you and all your emotions or feelings are welcome. It’s okay.” — Chloé Zhao (29:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On adaptation:
  “Maggie described it as...like the process, like an hourglass. So the sand has to...get distilled to the central—the little neck of the hourglass. That’s what we do when we take the sand of the novel.” — Chloé Zhao (06:21)

• On feminine sensitivity:
  “That’s the language of Agnes...So for her to have this sensitivity, this Intuition about him...in many, many cultures around the world, vision is considered a feminine quality.” — Chloé Zhao (12:10)

• On Will and Agnes’s relationship:
  “He needed someone to see what he could be, and she needed someone to accept and see her for who she is.” — Chloé Zhao (16:20)

• On grieving and art:
  “The only way for him to survive is to find a way to express it. And that is his safe place, is his art...Because they did that, she and that audience is able to have a container. And that container is in the shape of a play, a film...” — Chloé Zhao (26:17)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Impression of the novel & world-building: 03:08–03:42
• Collaboration & voice notes with Maggie O’Farrell: 03:49–06:08
• Hourglass metaphor/adaptation process: 06:08–07:43
• Casting Jessie Buckley: 09:08–10:49
• Intuition and “witchiness”: 10:49–13:31
• Portrait of marriage (Will & Agnes): 14:38–16:34
• Tantric practice & gendered energy in acting: 17:27–19:47
• Humanizing Shakespeare: 19:47–21:15
• Birth, death, body wisdom: 21:31–24:14
• Grief and art’s container: 24:58–27:17
• Ritual of dancing: 27:17–29:00
• Zhao’s wish for audience impact: 29:00–29:44

Conclusion

The episode offers a poetic, intimate look at the making of Hamnet and the philosophies guiding Chloé Zhao’s creative process. By blending ritual, intuition, and deep empathy, Zhao reshapes the familiar story of Shakespeare’s family into a meditation on grief, gender, and the necessity of art as a vessel for feeling and connection. Audiences are invited to carry the film’s lessons into their own relationships and conversations.