Podcast Summary

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: Chloé Zhao's 'Hamnet'
Date: December 5, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Chloé Zhao, director and co-writer of Hamnet

Episode Overview

This episode features Oscar-winning filmmaker Chloé Zhao discussing her new film, Hamnet—an adaptation of Maggie O'Farrell's acclaimed novel. The conversation explores how Zhao worked with O'Farrell to adapt the story for the screen, the intimate and cosmic dynamics of Shakespeare’s marriage, the depiction of grief and motherhood, and Zhao’s approach to representing femininity, intuition, and creative collaboration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adapting Hamnet from Novel to Film

• Zhao’s collaboration with author Maggie O’Farrell was unique, involving long, unfiltered voice notes sent across continents. Zhao sent inspiration and ideas that O’Farrell would distill and return, likening the process to gardening.
  • Zhao: "I would send her voice notes...I don't talk linearly. I tend to talk in a spiral shape...there was one time it was 58 minutes long...Her daughter walked in and said, what podcast are you listening to? She said, it's Chloe. I'm taking notes. Shh." (03:11)
• Zhao describes the adaptation process as an hourglass: distill the novel’s vastness to its essence, then expand it again through filmmaking.
  • Zhao: "So much is about taking things out...Of everything in the novel...What is the path we want to walk?" (06:26)

2. Portraying Shakespeare and Agnes

• Zhao focused less on historical research, relying instead on acting and presence to bring the characters into the “present moment.”
  • Zhao: "My job is to take that character that exists in the past...bring that character to the present moment, allow the camera to capture that character existing in the present moment." (07:21)
• She chose Jessie Buckley for the role of Agnes because of her artistry and intuition:
  • Zhao: "Beyond being an actress, she's a storyteller. She's an artist herself...she was going to create Agnes' language for me, because Agnes had a different language to create the way Shakespeare did." (08:22)

3. Intuition, Feminine Power, and the "Witch" Archetype

• Agnes’ "sixth sense" in the story is seen as connected to a deeper, often misunderstood sensitivity—a “lost language,” especially for women.
  • Zhao: "The word witch has...been quite misunderstood...It's just somebody who's taken their time to watch the weather...a level of sensitivity." (10:13)
  • Zhao: "Particularly for women, we were born more so with that sensitivity. And that's our power. And I understand why it was considered dangerous, because it's extremely powerful." (11:07)

4. Love, Marriage, and Grief

• Zhao emphasized the complementary differences between Will and Agnes: Will seeks order and control out of necessity, while Agnes is wild and uncontained, both needing the other for wholeness.

  • Zhao: "He was all about structure and order and control...Her wildness is on full display...She needed someone to see her for who she is." (14:30 - 15:34)

• Handling loss and grief is central—Agnes’ and Will’s differences lead to deeply distinct reactions to tragedy.

  • Zhao: "For him, if he starts crying, then he will be crying until the end of the day. He's held every tear in since he was a little boy...For her, her grief is so overwhelming...Without some kind of container, I'm just grabbed by the complexes...Frozen." (24:12 - 25:07)
  • Grief, Zhao reflects, is essential to connection:
    • Zhao: "Grief is something...much bigger than us had designed us to have for a reason. Because without grief, there's no empathy and there's no love. And we connect with each other through our grief more than our joy." (23:14)

5. The Process: Tantric Principles and Embodiment for the Cast

• Zhao drew from her training in tantra to help actors embody masculine/feminine energies safely and holistically.
  • Zhao: "You help you put them in their bodies. That's where the best acting comes from...to allow them to physically embody the energy of their gender self to the full extreme and giving consent and safety for them to interact with each other physically." (16:38)
  • This contributed to the authentic collision and harmony of “total chaos meeting total order.”

6. Physicality, Ritual, and Closure on Set

• To process the difficult emotions stirred during filming, Zhao ended tough days with dancing—ritualized, sometimes choreographed, and sometimes spontaneous.
  • Zhao: "Emotions [are] energy in motion...you really feel like you have to let go of that control of that emotion...when you start dancing, you go into your body...when you see others do it, it gives you the permission." (26:25 - 27:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On collaborative writing:

  "So they're long [voice notes]. And I believe there was one time it was 58 minutes long, and her daughter walked in and said, 'what podcast are you listening to?' She said, 'it's Chloe. I'm taking notes. Shh.'" — Chloé Zhao (03:11)

• On adapting the novel:

  "The sand has to...distill to the central...little neck of the hourglass...We take the sand of the novel, distill it down, and then allow the filmmaking process to expand it again." — Chloé Zhao (05:54)

• On Agnes' powers and femininity:

  "The word witch has...been quite misunderstood. What is a weather witch, for example? It's just somebody who's taken their time to watch the weather, who are a bit more sensitive...a level of sensitivity." — Chloé Zhao (10:13)

• On grief:

  "Grief is something that something much bigger than us had designed us to have for a reason. Because without grief, there's no empathy and there's no love." — Chloé Zhao (23:14)

• On the importance of art as a container for grief:

  "The only way for him to survive is to find a way to express it. And that is his safe place, is his art, his fantasy...Within that container, the chaos of their grief gets to have meaning." — Chloé Zhao (25:19 - 25:51)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and film synopsis: (00:58)
• Chloé Zhao on the world of Hamnet and voice note collaboration: (02:08–04:24)
• Approach to adaptation and the 'hourglass' metaphor: (05:33–06:41)
• Casting and Jessie Buckley as Agnes: (08:08–09:03)
• Agnes’ intuition and “witchiness”: (09:49–12:31)
• Clip from the film – Agnes and Hamnet: (12:41–13:38)
• Depiction of the marriage, loss, and grief: (13:53–15:34)
• Tantric practice and embodiment: (16:09–18:38)
• Humanizing Will Shakespeare: (18:38–20:07)
• Approach to childbirth scenes: (20:23–22:11)
• On grief, children, and history: (22:11–23:45)
• Handling grief and art as container: (24:12–25:51)
• On-set ritual of dancing: (26:09–27:54)
• What Zhao hopes audiences take away: (27:54–28:36)
• Closing remarks: (28:36–28:44)

Takeaways and Episode Tone

The conversation is thoughtful, reflective, and often poetic. Zhao speaks in metaphors about nature, art, and the feminine spirit. She offers rare insight into the emotional and practical aspects of creating a deeply empathetic historical drama. Listeners are left with an appreciation for the complexity of adaptation, the nuance in human relationships, and the healing potential of art.

For more: See Chloé Zhao’s Hamnet in theaters, and experience a moving exploration of love, loss, femininity, and the enduring power of story.