C (4:42)

Well, I went to the Lilith Fair. I covered the Lilith Fair and it was awesome.

B (4:45)

Congratulations. I know, I am very, very jealous that you got to go physically. Yeah.

C (4:51)

Listeners, we want to hear from you. Did you attend Lilith Fair? What was your experience? Call or text us now. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. Did you discover any new artists?

B (5:05)

Did you make friends?

C (5:06)

What stood out to you? We want to know.

D (5:08)

Age?

B (5:09)

Did you come out exactly?

C (5:11)

212-433-969-22124, 433WNYC. And if you do have any photos, actual physical photos that you want to share with us, you can put them on Instagram and tag us at all of it. Wnyc. First of all, where did it get its name from the Lilith Fair?

B (5:32)

Well, Lilith was Adam's first wife in, you know, religious mythology. But she was like, this sucks to be subservient to you. And she left the Garden of Eden. And when Sarah was looking for a name, she just thought. And it was a bit prophetic because in the way that Lilith has been sort of written out of religious history books and definitely is not as famous as. As Eve who stuck around, you know, Lilith was also misremembered. Its massive contribution to pop culture into the music industry Was also kind of like. Yeah. Written out of the history book. So I think it's, like, so also fitting now looking at the whole picture and the whole story. But at the time, Sarah just thought, wow, this woman, this, you know, ancient woman, you know, just felt like a really good representative of her wanting to, like, leave maybe the garden of the mainstream music industry and create this, like, safe space outside of it, if only for, you know, a couple of summers. Yeah.

A (6:46)

Like Lilith said, peace out, I'll do my own thing.

B (6:48)

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that was edited at the Bible, that exact quote, which is unfortunate.

A (6:57)

What experiences did Sarah McLachlan have? We can ask her in a little bit when she's our guest. That gave her the idea for the festival.

B (7:06)

Well, I think it was just. There is something, like, so Canadian about her, too, in the fact that I think. And she says it in the doc, she was a bit sheltered from the harshness of the American industry early in her career. And then when she was, like, starting to achieve American success and she went down to work with American labels and that system, that's when she really felt a lot of the misogyny and the, like, emphasis on image. And these are the rules, and you have to play by the rules if you're, like a woman in the music industry. And so I think maybe having the softer, more welcoming or safe experience of being in this Canadian environment first and then coming and being able to have that perspective, looking at the system in the States and going, wait, that's strange. That's weird. That pushback is not what I want to be dealing with. Maybe it made her a little bit bolder to say, I'd like to do things my own way. But, yeah, she was being told as well as a lot of the other really high performing female artists of the 90s, including, like, Sheryl Crowe and Tracy Chapman, they were being told by booker's promoters, like, you can't pick your own openers. You cannot bring a female opener on your tour with you because we won't be able to sell those tickets. And I think Sarah just, like, literally looked around and used her eyes and ears and was like, I just know my audiences, and I think if I want to listen to Paula Cole, they'll want to also listen to Paula Cole. And. And I think she just truly set it out with a very honest, personal, authentic, small want, which was to be surrounded by the artists she actually liked and wanted to be in community with when she was out on the road, when she was on a tour, when she was Doing shows. And. And she just said, this is what I'm going to do or I'm not going to do it. And that's, like, really powerful. And often big, big ripples can happen from that. Kind of, like, very. Yeah, just small, but very honest and strong thinking.

A (9:14)

Let's take a couple of calls. This is Maria, who is calling in from Flatiron. Hey, Maria, thanks for making the time to call. All of it.

E (9:22)

Oh, thank you. My pleasure. I am a makeup artist. Have been my whole life, and I was. I did a couple of Lilith Fair appearances with my dear friend and client, Emmylou Harris.

B (9:33)

Oh, my gosh.

E (9:33)

Sarah had this thing. Oh, yeah. And so Sarah had this thing where she would go around and put pink glitter on all the artists. Like, pile of pink glitter everywhere. And I actually had a little container of pink glitter in my makeup case that opened up and exploded. And I'm still finding in that case, piles of pink glitter. You can't get rid of it. But I'm curious if anybody else remembers the pink glitter image.

B (9:59)

You are going to be pleasantly surprised when you see one of the anecdotes that Emmy Lou Harris gives in her interview. I don't want to give it away. The. The button of her joke or the. The big reveal, but I think you'll be very happy that she also remembers that.

A (10:22)

Let's talk to Savik from Astoria. Savik, I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. You're on the air.

E (10:29)

Hi. Thanks. Very close, Savik. But, yeah, I was. I went to the first Lilith Fair in 97, partly because I have been a huge Sarah McLachlan fan ever since I, you know, found her in college. I have all of her albums, and I still have somewhere buried in my dresser, my 1997 Lilith Fair T shirt, which got worn to death and is, like, not appropriate to wear in public anymore.

B (10:57)

Well, let me tell you, it's worth a lot of money on the Internet right now.

E (11:03)

Not for sale. Not for sale. And I just, you know, I think also, like, I'm professionally. I'm an astrophysicist, which is another field where, you know, women are underrepresented. I mean, obviously women aren't underrepresented in music, but these, like, disadvantages that were very structural. It's really hard to convey, like, how bad the 90s were. Like, people think, oh, the 90s. You know, like, there's this nostalgia and stuff, but it's like the misogyny was so out there to an extent that, like, it was just everywhere. And I, and I loved being at Lilith Fair with all of these like wonderful women artists and the women fans. It was just such like a great space even, you know, like, obviously it's just like a college student, grad student fan. And so I have very, very fond memories of it still.

A (11:50)

Thanks for calling.

B (11:51)

Yeah, when you speak of the misogyny of that time, it was like very, very specific and very blatant. Like obviously there's been misogyny and homophobia and racism and all of these things in pop culture long before and there will be long after. But in that time it just felt like it was like the trend in comedy. Like that was like the thing that was a safe thing to say on some of the, like, most mainstream large platforms that millions of people could watch. And when you start going through the archive and you start looking through it and compiling all of it and looking at it all together, it feels really relentless. And it really took me back to that time of like being a teenager in the 90s and in the early 2000s and going, oh my God, this was like how I was taught how to look at myself as a young woman and for me specifically as like a queer person. And how did I ever like survive that thinking? And it's taken many decades to unlearn that thinking. And this doc was like a really nice opportunity to continue that work. But yeah, you had some, you know, old late night hosts talking about teenage girls breasts more often than you could count. And yeah, it's, it's really crazy. And when you, when you start walking down that memory lane. But I think it's something we need to do right now in pop culture is like, look at that time period and go, oh my God, how do we let that happen?

C (13:23)

My guest is director Ally Pankiw. We're talking about her documentary Lilith Building.

A (13:28)

A the Untold Story. Did you go to Lilith Fair? We want to hear from you. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC.

C (13:39)

We'll have more with Allie and we'll have more of your calls after a quick break.

A (13:43)

This is all you're listening to, all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is director Ally Penk. We're talking about her documentary Lilith Building a Mystery, the Untold Story. It will be released on Hulu and Hulu on Disney on September 21, 2025. I want to follow up. So many women joined the bill. They seemed ready to join the bill. Was anyone concerned at all about being Blackballed in the industry when it first started.

B (14:26)

Yeah, definitely. A lot of artists spoke about why I don't want to get lumped together with a bunch of girls. I don't. I don't want to be tokenized. Which was like, already happening, of course, in the industry quite a bit. But as. As soon as Sarah started to explain, like, I just want to prove that it's possible so that they can't control us in this way. Like, I just want to prove them wrong and then we don't have to do this anymore if we don't want to. People really got on board really quickly. But I also think, again, like, that's that internalized misogyny of that time, like, speaking through those responses of. We're all taught to align with the thing that isn't thought of as frivolous and isn't thought of as like, too overly earnest. And being in the music industry was about being good at being in the boys club, you know, which happens a lot in the entertainment industry and in the arts. And. And then I think, though, that myth very quickly broke down when they got to Lilith and they were like, this is a so fun, but also like, so cool and radical. Like, it's. Yeah, it. So there was a lot of mixed feelings, I think about it at first. Absolutely.

C (15:42)

When you were working on the documentary, where did the footage come from? You have great footage.

B (15:47)

We got really lucky. We have lots and lots of beautiful archive. Almost too much because we couldn't use all of it. But it came from a few different sources. There was a documentary that was being made at the time of Lilith that was being filmed over those summers and it just didn't get distributed. That footage didn't really get used. So we were able to license that group of filmmakers footage from that time. And that's where a lot of the like, never before seen footage came from. And then of course there's like media coverage and news clips that we licensed. And then also a nice mix of some video and a lot of photo from a lot of the artists that were there and the people that worked on Lilith. Some crew members brought like whole scrapbooks with like their lanyards and their photos and ticket stubs and like, it was very much a thing that you could tell already was something that people wanted to remember and like, hold on to when they were a part of it back then.

C (16:50)

So this text says, I attended the Lilith Fair in 1998 in Albuquerque. It was wonderful. This text said, I attended Nate in 97. Fiona Apple was mesmerizing Tracy Chapman was unbelievably affecting. And how many other people had ever heard the Cardigan's play Love fool live?

B (17:09)

Oh, my God. That's one thing that I will, yeah, forever be jealous.

C (17:14)

Let's talk to Laurie, who's calling in from Frenchtown. Hey, Laurie, thanks for making the time to call.

B (17:18)

All of it.

D (17:21)

Hey, thanks for taking my call. I went to the first Lilith and I used to be a professional musician in the band in New York. So I am looking through those eyes. I was very excited that there was a lot of female dominated bands and artists. And I was shocked at one performance that just blew everyone else away. And that was Tracy Chapman. She's the only one. She didn't have a band. She just came out by herself with a guitar, stood in front of the mic and smoked the place. She was so good, it just blew my hair back. I couldn't believe how effective her voice was and how she transfixed that crowd.

E (18:08)

That's my memory.

C (18:09)

Laurie, thanks for calling in. Suzanne is calling us from Philly. Hey, Suzanne, thanks for calling, all of it.

F (18:15)

Hi, thanks for taking my call. Boy, you guys just brought back great memories. My daughter was about 11 or 12. I think it was 97. I'm not 97 or 98. And we were huge Sarah McLachlan fans, huge Tracy Chapman fans. And we were able to get two tickets to Lilith Fair. So my husband and I decided that he would be the one to take her because the message would be, you know, men really need to support women in music and the arts. And so they went, and I still remember them barreling into the house after the concert. Christina had been on his shoulders, and I don't know which band was playing, but someone tossed out a drumstick and Christina caught it. And I probably think she still has it today. I'll check in with her later. And it was just a wonderful experience for my daughter. And she's a strong, wonderful woman today. And I think these are the kinds of experiences that really helped make her who she is.

C (19:11)

Thank you so much for calling.

B (19:13)

Yeah.

C (19:13)

How did the audience fare at Lilith Fair? What was their experience?

B (19:19)

I mean, yeah, we only heard overwhelmingly positive anecdotes like that of, like, firsts and really formative memories. And, you know, that it was like the first place that people felt safe. Festivals and spaces in music were not safe for young women, and they still aren't all the time, you know, and so it was very family friendly. A lot of the artists brought their babies to the tour. And I think it was just like a top down, like, trickle down effect of everyone on the tour was being treated really well. All the crew were being treated well. They were, like, given health care. It was like one of the first tours or the first tour to, like, provide dental care to its crew members. Like. And I think that environment of, like, everyone's equal, everyone's deserving really trickled down to the audience. And, like, that was like a really big feedback loop we've heard. And also, it was a big myth that men didn't go. That was like a great anecdote from your listener to, like, dispel the myth that it was like men wanted to listen to women artists. I just don't think they thought they had permission to in society at that time.

A (20:27)

But, yeah, speaking of men, let's talk to Lee from Morristown. Hey, Lee, thanks for calling all of it.

D (20:34)

Hi. Well, yeah, speaking of men, I went there thinking maybe the first one, I'm not sure with my wife and I are two children. We all thought it was just fantastic. My kids got a great kick out of it when one of the artists started off by saying, yeah, great effing audience.

A (21:04)

Thank you for clearing that up. Let's talk to Kevin. Hey, Kevin.

B (21:11)

Hey.

G (21:11)

Hey, Allison. Yeah, I went to all three of the Lilith Fairs. They were amazing. And I'm a professional musician and it was very exciting. I love Sarah McLachlan. A female roommate of mine turned me on to her years in the earlier 90s. And I remember going to one and there was like, they had three different stages and one real small satellite. I saw Juliana Hatfield and then walked down and saw Amy Mann and then walked up to the main stage and saw the Pretenders and Sheryl crow and Sarah McLachlan. And, you know, so it was just phenomenal. It was amazing. And one thing, I had seen Cheryl before on her own tour with Wilco, and I could feel that her show had evolved so much her performance. And I felt like the Pretenders, because Chrissy Hind is just so incredible as a performer. And later I read in Rolling Stone that Cheryl said, yeah, Christy Hein really kicked my butt into gear about what. So I just think there was so much cross pollination among the artists. It seems like it was a great environment for them, which was just this amazing benefit for us, you know, the audience. So I really, really loved it. And I wish it was still something that was happening today because it was just a fantastic festival and amazing event.

B (22:41)

Thanks. I think a lot of that cross pollination happened too, because there was like equity among the artists. They all had the same size dressing rooms and they were all in the same place and no one was like, treated better or worse. So they all actually hung out and talked to each other and you know, no one was like shepherded in and from a different area or anything like that. It was, it was very communal.

C (23:02)

So something that it did take some criticism from. And you address it in the documentary as that it was not diverse aside from Tracy Chapman. And how did Sarah handle that?

B (23:14)

I think Sarah handled that with like a lot of grace that a lot of people could learn from today of like taking criticism and being like, we'd like to hold you to a higher standard. And. And they really put in a concerted effort to hold themselves to a higher standard in following years and to make the, the festival more intersectional. Obviously, like, that work was not done. I think they would have continued to improve had it kept going past 99. Like, you know, it was never perfect, but there was like this grace and this like, willingness to be like, we really want to try. Like, we want to also try and combat that issue that's like industry wide, that there's like not a lot of representation in the industry and we want to, you know, so they brought on Erykah Badu, they brought on Missy Elliott in the second year and all of these other artists. And. And I just think it is really interesting that nowadays I feel like when people get criticism, they often like, dig their heels in and like, and there's this like, defensiveness. And I think there wasn't a defensiveness to the, like, it was totally accurate criticism. There was like an openness to be like, okay, well we're gonna try and do as much as we can in this moment in time in the industry to like do something about it and do outrage. So yeah, I, I commend her for her response in that time.

A (24:38)

How do you think the Lilith Fair changed the music industry?

B (24:42)

I mean, in very tangible ways, like we talked about at the beginning or you set up in the beginning. Like, there are literally radio show hosts and radio programmers that say before Lilith Fair they didn't program two women back to back, and after Lilith Fair they did so like something tangible like that. I think it really proved to promoters that they could book bills with more than one woman on them. I mean, you know, festivals are still learning to book more women on their bills, but it, you know, it started then. And then I think there's like less tangible ripples of some modern day artists that credit those women as their inspiration. One of the younger artists in our doc is Olivia Rodrigo. And she said a lot of her songwriting, you know, like, that spark in her comes from listening to that era of artist music. And she's such a great lyricist. And you can see, like, it makes so much sense that there's like a link to that era of like, lyricism and how those women were writing music. So there's that just to like, I think festivals trying to be safer spaces. And also something that people don't know is Lilith was the first festival to have like a village. So everything you see now, from like a Coachella to all those things and like the other smaller stages, like, Lilith pioneered that. So all of those smaller discovery stages were blossomed from Lilith. So in many ways, I think it shifted things.

C (26:18)

I've been speaking with Allie Panki. She's the director of the documentary Lilith Building a the Untold Story. It's from ABC News Studio and it will premiere on Hulu and Hulu on DIS this Sunday, September 21st.

A (26:31)

Thank you so much for joining us.

B (26:33)

Thank you so much for having me. What a thrill. I hope everyone enjoys the doc.

H (26:37)

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.