← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
'Conclave' Editor Nick Emerson
00:20:28
Film editor Nick Emerson discusses his work on the film "Conclave."
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Alison Stewart
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue with another installment of our series the Big Picture. That's when we speak to Oscar nominated people who work behind the camera to make excellent movies in 2024. Let's talk about Conclave. The Sistine Chapel might seem like an unlikely place for a thriller, but the film makes the election of the next pope as thrilling as any spy narrative. Conclave is nominated for Best Picture at this year's Academy Awards and stars Ralph Fiennes and Isabella Rossellini are up for Oscars in acting categories. Also nominated is the film's editor, Nick Emerson, who helped keep the audience on their toes. Nick took home the BAFTA for Best Editing earlier this month, making him a potential frontrunner in this category. You can stream Conclave now on Peacock. I began my conversation with Nick by asking him about his transition from working in television news to film editing.
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Nick Emerson
It was a long process actually, but I actually started in television news and then ultimately moved from television news into documentary film. And so there was little stepping stones that finally sort of got me to feature films. So, yes, documentary film. And I spend a long time doing documentary film which is an amazing place and field to learn how to tell a story and draw a story out of some material. So I did that for a long time. But I was always interested in, you know, trying to get into films and I was doing lots of short films and one of them did quite well. And I was very fortunate that the directors who made that short film ended up being offered a feature film and they somehow managed to persuade the producers to let me edit it and that was the start of it.
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Alison Stewart
Is there anything the same about editing news footage versus editing film?
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Nick Emerson
Oh, yeah. I mean, the rhythms are different and you know, the way you might cut the picture is different. But the narrative, from a narrative point of view, it's similar. It's obviously, you know, in news or documentary, you know, there's maybe a shorter arc in terms of the story, but they still have a beginning, middle and an end end which is, you know, true of in true of feature films. So, you know, it's similar. But you know, I guess the yeah the form is, is different. But, you know, the narrative side of things is, you know, I learned so much from making documentary films in terms of, you know, narrative storytelling and drama actually, because you still apply, you know, when you're making a documentary film. It's, you know, it's still got to have dramatic peaks and troughs and so forth. So that's something that I took with me into feature film editing.
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Alison Stewart
What was your first thought when you first read the script for Conclave?
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Nick Emerson
My first thought was, I really want to do this. I remember thinking, oh my goodness, it was just such a page turner. It was so thrilling. And there was two aspects to it. I remember thinking, oh, I just love getting to see behind the curtain of this process of seeing this very old and very sacred ritual. Getting a peek behind the door, I suppose, and seeing it. And then also it reminded me when I read it of films that I greatly admire, such as all the President's Men and, you know, the Alan Pakula films like the Parallax View. It sort of had that sort of flavor of, you know, conspiracy thriller. And I was very excited by that about the challenges of that and from an editorial point of view and you know, when I spoke to Edward, when we had a meeting about the film, we shared those that love those films. So it was a, it was a great starting point for our collaboration.
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Alison Stewart
Should let people know Edward Berger is the director. Now. You edited in London, but you did visit the set. What did you get from visiting the set?
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Nick Emerson
It's really about just being able to spend time with the director when you visit set. You know, I mean, they're very busy on the shooting days, but I was able to, you know, spend time together on the weekends, you know, looking at the film together and you know, I'd never worked with him before. So it's always, you know, you know, editing and directing. The relationship between two people, you know, it's a, you know, it's a long relationship. You spend a lot of time together. So it was a lot about being able to develop that relationship and start to, you know, understand what his desires for the film were. And yeah, it was great. We, yeah, just were in Rome for some weekends just to. Just so I could show him some pieces that we were working on. Although I did, although I was in London editing while he was shooting. I would send him scenes that I would cut. As soon as I would have them ready, I would send them over a secure video sharing platform that he was able to see how the scenes were coming together at that early stage.
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Edward Berger
You said that editing Conclave was very meticulous from the beginning, but also that director Edward Berger was open and adaptable. What's an example of him being open to your suggestions?
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Nick Emerson
Just let me think. Oh, yeah, there was. There was one example where, you know, in the beginning, we were. There's a whole sequence where the. The cardinals arrive and, you know, for the conclave and, you know, scripted. And the way it was shot, they were separate sequences. And, you know, there was a dialogue scene and, you know, there was scenes of the nuns preparing the rooms. And then there was, you know, scenes of the cardinals, you know, smoking on their iPads and so on and going through security. And, you know, it was like that. And we. There was a dialogue scene that we sort of. We thought, well, maybe we could take that out. And then I suggested, well, let's just try and mold all this together and not really worrying about the time and the, you know, the chronological chronology of these things. And we just, you know, make it into a montage of all these things sort of coalescing together. But, I mean, that's one example. But he's just, you know, he's very. He's so prepared and so, you know, interested in the detail. But, you know, he just loves. He loves editing, you know, and so he. And he believes that, you know, part of editing is to explore every opportunity available because he thinks, you know, we spent all this time and money and all these, you know, amazing crafts people and actors spend all day on set, you know, and it's, you know, we have to do it for them. If nothing else is just to make sure that we've. We have been so, you know, just examined everything as. As thoroughly as we can. So he's. He's up for everything, you know, and films, not just in this film and any film films, if you don't go down these alleys of trying things out, you know, you have to do it. Because even if you try one way and it's not right, it might lead you another way, which is right. So it's. You have to explore.
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Edward Berger
In electing a new pope, there are so many rituals in this movie. Traditions, steps that must be followed. What ritual proved to be the most interesting to edit?
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Nick Emerson
I mean, I think the ballot sequences themselves. You know, when. When the men are gathered. And I particularly like the first one, the first ballot sequence that we put together. Ed Edward had storyboarded these, so we had a good idea of the structure. But the first voting scene, we. We played out very sort of deliberately, quite slowly that you see every step that that takes place. And what that did was it gave us the permission and, you know, the ability when we revisit the voting sequences later on in the film that we can be more fluid with them and change them around and change the order of shots and, you know, make them faster or even slower. And that was. We were super aware that we wanted to make these rituals different every time. Although it's the same thing taking place, we wanted to see them in an interesting way each time we visited them. So they were so much fun to edit. And just, you know, with those wonderful shots that he shot of, you know, all the characters and they're putting needles through paper and all that stuff is, you know, is such a gift to an editor because it's all very dynamic and, you know, you can create wonderful montages with those.
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Alison Stewart
All right, what was the least interesting but necessary sequence and how did you handle it?
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Nick Emerson
Oh, goodness. The least interesting. I don't know. You know, I think everything, everything that needs needed to be there is there and if it's not there, you know, if it wasn't interesting, you know, we did try to, to take it out. You know, we always, Edward and I used to always say to one another, we, when we were making this was that we just, we don't waste a frame, you know, for every frame has to, has to be there for, for a reason. So I mean, and they're obviously, you know, in the editor, editorial, you know, process, there are obviously always, you know, challenges. And you know, we, I think we spent a lot of time on the, you know, the first 20 minutes of the film, you know, experimenting with structure and making it longer, making it shorter. Because there's a lot of elements that you've got to get going. You've got to set up a world, you've got to set up a main character, you've got to set up inciting incident, you've got to set up all these other characters and get all these little plot lines developing and starting. So that was, that was very satisfying to do. But yeah, we spent a lot of time, yeah, playing with that to get the right combination of those scenes and sequences.
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Alison Stewart
I'm speaking with Nick Emerson, the editor of the Film Conclave. He is nominated for an Oscar for best editing.
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Edward Berger
Okay.
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Alison Stewart
This is really a thriller. This, this film, it reminded me, like you said, it reminded me of all the President's men, the machinations, the behind the scenes action. How did you want to pace the story so it does feel like a thriller?
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Nick Emerson
Yeah, I mean, we Were super aware of that from the beginning, you know, that we wanted it to be. Have a certain pace to it because we were aware it's, you know, it's a lot of, you know, men talking for a couple of hours, you know, so we really wanted to keep the pace up. And we knew that would. Would just help with the tension and keep people on the edge of their seats. And there was sort of two ways we approached it. One was Edward's approach to shooting it, which was very much in the vein of the, you know, those political thrillers from the 70s you mentioned, which is being extremely rigorous with the shot composition and, you know, holding shots longer and also not revisiting the same shot more than once and creating this very sort of strong architecture. So that the way that his gram, you know, grammar approach to these helped create these really strong scenes that are. So. They're so tense because they're not cutting in a way. And then also there's just the overall pace that we spent a lot of time, you know, adjusting and looking at. And often the way you do that is you. It's often about, you know, it's taking out little bits of connective tissue, as I would call them between scenes that you just arrive from one scene straight into the next. So you're carrying the tension from the previous scene straight into the next scene without letting the air out by seeing somebody get up, leave a room and. And, you know, go into the next scene. And I've sort of, you know, tricked my brain over the years in terms of watching films is how to sort of assess the pace is. Because you have to watch these films so many times when you're editing them. But I tend to try to look. You look beyond the cuts. Try to watch it without looking at the cuts because you've spent so many time. So it's so much time perfecting these cuts. But if you try to look beyond that and just look and be aware of the flow of information, the flow of emotion and the flow of story. If you can watch it from that point of view, you can see where the slack is and. Or where there's points that you can really exploit tension. So it's a whole. It's a whole range of processes that we go through to arrive where we did.
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Alison Stewart
You know, so much of the movie is about what's going on with Cardinal Lawrence internally. Ralph Fiennes, he says he doesn't want to be Pope, but, you know, kind of keep that going. How did you help make his sort of his interior performance rise? To the surface for viewers.
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Nick Emerson
Yeah. I mean, we always knew that when we wanted to tell a story, he was the anchor point, you know, he was. We wanted to keep it. Yeah, we wanted to keep it in his point of view so much, you know, that. So that we see everything through him. And it's, you know, so. So much of it is about the way that Edward shoots Rafe as well. You know, he. He has, you know, a really. He's got such a strong instinct in terms of where to place the camera, you know, so he, you know, he would place the camera above the back of Rafe's head and not necessarily looking, you know, at his face, you know, and quite often in films, you know, you get access to a character through their eyes. But this was different, you know, but it creates this sort of interesting tension between the camera and the actor. And you can sort of see audiences sort of try to peek around the corner to look into the. The actor's eyes, you know, because they can't see it. So it's things like that and just giving access. And then also, you've just got one of the great actors in the world, you know, that he is just. Rafe is just, you know, so truthful and so in the moment at any given time, that it's just the crisis and the situation that he's in. It's coming out of every pore. You know, you just have to point the camera at him, you know, and look at him, and it's being transmitted. So, yeah, we did. You know, I always think when I'm putting a scene together is, you know, I always think about these anchor points in the scene in terms of, you know, definitely somewhere where we need to be. And I just sort of focused in on those. And it was always generally related to, you know, to Ralph and how he was. And Cardinal Lawren, how he was receiving information, you know, in terms of, you know, because he doesn't have huge amounts of dialogue, you know, it's often just about watching him, you know, receive the information and, you know, the situation that's going on around him. But what. I mean, I just feel so lucky to have, you know, to be able to work with that, you know, that performance. It's. You know, I've admired his work for years, so it was a great thrill.
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Edward Berger
Stanley Tucci plays Cardinal Bellini, an American who says that he doesn't want the papacy. But later, it seems he does want the papacy. Let's listen to this scene and we can talk about it on the other side. This is between Bellini And Lawrence, as Bellini is arriving for the conclave.
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Stanley Tucci
Father Bellini. Aldo.
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Ralph Fiennes
Am I the last one?
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Stanley Tucci
Not quite. How are you?
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Ralph Fiennes
Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers? Apparently it's already decided it's to be me.
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Stanley Tucci
And I happen to agree with them.
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Ralph Fiennes
What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the papacy.
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Stanley Tucci
Some of our colleagues seem to want it.
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Ralph Fiennes
What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy?
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Stanley Tucci
You are more worthy than any of us.
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Ralph Fiennes
I'm not.
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Stanley Tucci
Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you to pass the chalice.
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Ralph Fiennes
And let it go to him. And I could never live with myself.
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Edward Berger
Tell me about Bellini's arc through this film.
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Nick Emerson
Yeah, well, I mean, that scene in particular really highlights Stanley's actual genius, you know, because that is a scene where you're setting up an awful lot of ideas with a lot of, you know, dialogue, explaining things. And he just is so natural, and it's so. You just understand everything that he's. He's. He's feeling, you know. So, yeah, I mean, he starts as somebody who's, you know. You know, I think is, you know, has a strong sense of what he thinks is right and what is wrong in the world and, you know, really wants to do something about it, but as you know, is worried that, you know, he doesn't have, you know. You know, he doesn't really want, you know, the, you know, the top job or the pressure of it. But. And then slowly, you know, through the film, he, you know, he basically realizes that he has to do it, you know, and he has to do it to, you know, keep the liberal. His liberal agenda at the forefront, but then gets sort of sucked into the politics of it, you know, and the politicking and. But eventually, you know, through the course of the film, realizes that, you know, you know, he. It's. You know, the ambition of it has got to him, you know, and there's a lovely scene at the end, actually towards the end, where he goes to Lawrence and apologizes to him for doubting him so much. And it's a really poignant sort of scene between these two brothers. And it actually has one of my favorite cuts in the film, which is just at the end of that scene when they've comforted one another and sort of, you know, bonded and, you know, Stanley's character has asked, you know, Lawrence what his papal name would be. And just at the end of the scene, we cut to this top shot in the Sistine Chapel of Lawrence with the empty. The Blank ballot. And here it is. Here's the choice, you know, is he going to vote for himself or not? You know, and it's just, it's a wonderful moment. There seems to be so much about the film that's contained in that one moment.
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Alison Stewart
You know, in the background of all of this is the labor of the nuns who are caring for these cardinals. How did you want to make sure that these women didn't fade into the background? In fact, that they were actually, they were definitely going to be present as the movie went on?
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Nick Emerson
Absolutely. And, you know, it was something we, Edward and I spoke about when we were editing. The film was just about that presence and how we place it throughout the film and that, you know, it's, it's there and you know, it's also in terms of Isabella's character, you know, we were, you know, Edward was sure to. When, you know, there's scenes that, you know, she is there in the script that he always made sure to shoot, you know, a big close up of her so that, you know, she wasn't just a, you know, somebody, you know, in charge of the nuns, you know, who are preparing all the food and making the beds, that she's, you know, she's there, she's got real strong presence and, you know, and I think sort of in the film, you know, a little bit of mystery as well. You're not quite sure what, how she feels about things. You get a little hint of it when she smiles in the canteen, when Cardinal Benitez thanks the women for their, for their, you know, for all the work that they're doing. So, yeah, no, we were just careful that it just had to be placed. And actually what I always think about these things is, you know, I look at the scene where she does speak and you sort of at the end where she, you know, reveals to the gathered cardinals about Cardinal Tremblay is I sort of work back from that. You know, that's the point where, you know, she speaks and, you know, sort of is prepared to speak. So you just work back from that really. When you're looking at the overall structure and thinking. And quite often when, you know, you go through films, you do track, you know, when you, well, let's do a pass thinking about Sister Agnes and where she appears. And we'd look at the timeline of the film and see where she appears. And so it's a calibration really. But what a wonderful performance. She's amazing.
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Alison Stewart
That was my conversation with Nick Emerson, the Oscar nominated editor of Conclave. We spoke to him as part of our series the Big Picture. Up next, we learn the detailed work that went into bringing a vampire story to life in Nosferatu from Oscar nominated costume designer Linda Muir. That's next.
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