Daniel Dae Kim and David Henry Hwang on the Tony-Nominated Revival of 'Yellowface'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Episode with Daniel Dae Kim and David Henry Hwang on the Tony-Nominated Revival of 'Yellowface'

Release Date: June 3, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Show: All Of It by WNYC

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Introduction to 'Yellowface'

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart engages in an in-depth conversation with David Henry Wong, the playwright of Yellowface, and Daniel Dae Kim, the acclaimed actor who stars in the Tony-nominated revival of the play. Yellowface addresses critical themes surrounding racial representation and identity in theater, drawing from real historical events and personal narratives.

Alison Stewart introduces the play, highlighting its success and significance:

“The revival of the play Yellowface will make you laugh and think, and if you missed it on Broadway, you can catch it streaming now on PBS until June 30th.” (01:32)

Origins and Context

The conversation delves into the historical context that inspired Yellowface. David Henry Wong explains his motivation to protest against the casting practices in Broadway, specifically referencing the controversial casting of a white actor, Jonathan Pryce, in the lead role of Miss Saigon during the 1990s.

“I felt kind of traumatized and I needed to process that. So I decided to write a comedy of mistaken racial identity...” – David Henry Wong (05:02)

Daniel Dae Kim reflects on the necessity of such protests to address the scarcity of opportunities for Asian actors:

“They were necessary because as a young Asian actor, I knew what a dearth of opportunities there were for us.” – Daniel Dae Kim (03:55)

Character Analysis: Dhh

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Daniel Dae Kim’s portrayal of Dhh, the fictionalized version of David Henry Wong. Dhh is portrayed as a complex character grappling with his identity and the consequences of his actions.

Daniel Dae Kim describes Dhh's internal struggles:

“He is a man who is wrestling with this idea of who his authentic self is... what does it require for those masks to come.” – (06:23)

The guests discuss Dhh's flaws, such as hubris and narcissism, and how these traits contribute to the character’s development and the play’s narrative.

“A lot of hubris, really. And really trying to protect his reputation as an Asian American role model...” – David Henry Wong (07:18)

Casting and Representation

The revival of Yellowface brings fresh perspectives on casting, addressing inclusivity and diversity. The play features a white actor in the lead Asian role, a deliberate choice that sparks conversations about representation in modern theater.

David Henry Wong explains the evolution of the play's casting:

“In the original production, the casting was essentially binary... we wanted this production to be more inclusive.” – (16:32)

The discussion touches on contemporary casting practices, such as actors of color portraying characters of different ethnicities, and the impact of these choices on audience perception and inclusivity.

“We're pretty used now to actors of color playing white people... but what will it mean for actors of color to play other characters of color...” – David Henry Wong (16:32)

Personal Stories and Themes

The interplay between personal narratives and broader societal issues is a cornerstone of Yellowface. Daniel Dae Kim shares insights into Dhh's relationship with his father, reflecting the generational differences in the Asian American experience.

“When you have preconceived notions based on how they look... that's not just Asian Americans.” – Daniel Dae Kim (24:52)

David Henry Wong relates the character's struggles to real-life events, such as the Wen Ho Lee case, emphasizing the persistent stereotypes faced by Asian Americans.

“...relevant in 2024 is that we are currently going through one of those periods... similar to the Wen Ho Lee character...” – (20:36)

Impact and Relevance

The play serves as both entertainment and a historical commentary, aiming to educate audiences about pivotal moments in Asian American history. Daniel Dae Kim underscores the importance of such narratives in shaping public understanding and fostering empathy.

“Those who don't know who David Henry Huang is... it's important that they do, because very often we're considered the silent minority...” – (22:20)

David Henry Wong highlights the play’s role in expanding Broadway’s audience and redefining the American theatrical canon:

“...pieces like Yellowface... are so important in expanding our audiences...” – (23:56)

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a poignant reminder of the play's availability on PBS and its significance in contemporary discourse on race and representation. Both David Henry Wong and Daniel Dae Kim emphasize the dual purpose of Yellowface: to entertain and to provoke thoughtful discussion on important cultural and historical issues.

“I think if it spurs people to say what was that Vincent Chin story all about?... then I think we're serving a dual purpose.” – Daniel Dae Kim (22:20)

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Notable Quotes:

• David Henry Wong on writing Yellowface:

  “I needed to make him a character. So, yes, there are ways in which he's like me and then there are things that happen because it helps the plot...” (07:44)

• Daniel Dae Kim on the challenges of performing without intermission:

  “There's no time to think about that now... it's been a great challenge.” (09:50)

• Alison Stewart on the play being a "shape shifter":

  “...starts out as sort of a documentary, it turns into just all out farce and then it becomes sort of political and then it becomes very personal.” – (11:26)

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This episode of All Of It offers a compelling exploration of Yellowface, shedding light on the complexities of racial representation in theater and the personal journeys that inform such narratives. Through engaging dialogue and insightful reflections, Stewart, Wong, and Kim provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the play's themes and its relevance in today's cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

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[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The revival of the play Yellowface will make you laugh and think, and if you missed it on Broadway, you can catch it streaming now on PBS until June 30th. The 2024 revival of the 2007 play from David Henry Wong received three Tony nominations, including best revival of a play and best actor for star Daniel Dae Kim. It makes Kim the first Asian American man to be nominated for a Tony in a lead role. The play is centered around a fictionalized Wong, a playwright named Dhh, who has made a name for himself fighting against yellowface in theater. White actors playing Asian roles. This really happened when Wong led the fight against Miss Saigon, which used British actor Jonathan Pryce in a lead role in the 1990s. In yellowface, DHH runs into a problem when he accidentally does the same casts a white man in a role he wrote for an Asian actor. DHH and the actor don't come clean. He tells the world his actor is a Siberian Jew and Siberia is in Asia. The whole thing comes to a head when reporters and the government start asking about investigating Chinese Americans for spying and money laundering. And that includes the act and DHH's father, a wealthy businessman who loves America. The question is, does America love him back? Yellowface is streaming now on PBS as part of their Great Performances series. I began my conversation with David Henry Wong and actor Daniel Dae Kim by asking David why he decided to lead a protest against Miss Saigon back in the 1990s.

[David Henry Wong]

I mean, I had based my career I owed to earlier yellowface protest people who protested in front of the Public Theater 10 years earlier, which led Joe Papp to start to look for an Asian playwright. And that was me. And so when the Miss Saigon protests came around, it just felt like someone had paid it forward to me and I needed to be part of that.

[Alison Stewart]

This was all happening. When you were starting out in your career, what did you think about the protests, Daniel?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I remember thinking that they were necessary because as a young Asian actor, I knew what a dearth of opportunities there were for us. And, you know, when you have a chance to play a lead on Broadway and that is no longer there for these kinds of reasons, it's problematic. At the same time, I also sympathize with my friends who also said, well, when else are we gonna be even on Broadway in a supporting role other than in a show like Miss Saigon? It represents one of the few opportunities we have to do anything, even in the ensemble. So, you know, it was, you know, I had some mixed feelings about it, but there's no question that David was on the right side of history there.

[Alison Stewart]

It was a big story. The point was made, and it sort of was bypassed. The play came to Broadway. Price was told he couldn't tape his eyes in response. You set out to write face value, white actor cast in the Asian role. And it was originally a farce. What part of it made you think, oh, I'll write a farce? A lot of doors slamming, I don't know.

[David Henry Wong]

Yeah, I just had this notion. I mean, after the Miss Saigon protest, which was sort of an early culture wars event, and being caught in the middle of that and arguably being a little bit canceled by mainstream media and opinion, I felt kind of traumatized and I needed to process that. And so I decided to write a comedy of mistaken racial identity about the question, you know, what does it really mean to play a race, to play one's own race? But I wrote it as sort of a door slamming farce, and it became one of the biggest flops in Broadway history.

[Alison Stewart]

You say that with such joy, in a way, when you think about it now, is it. Would it be a flop now?

[David Henry Wong]

Oh, yeah, I think. I mean, it's just. But I mean, I can have some joy about it because, you know, after 20 years, the story has a happy ending.

[Alison Stewart]

What?

[David Henry Wong]

Well, in the sense of taking that concept, again, a comedy of mistaken racial identity and coming up like 10, 15 years later with yellowface, a different way to approach the same idea in Yellowface.

[Alison Stewart]

Daniel, your character is dhh. How would you describe him?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

He is a man who is wrestling with this idea of who his authentic self is. And what are the masks that he's developed over the years to try and conceal who he really is, protect who he really is, and what does it require for those masks to come? And even though he has the best of intentions, there are other parts of his personality that serve as obstacles to him being his true self.

[Alison Stewart]

What are his flaws? What are DHH's flaws?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I would say a little bit of hubris, a little bit of narcissism, a little bit of inability to acknowledge mistakes until the consequences get so high that he's forced to acknowledge them. I'd say that sounds about right. What do you think, David?

[David Henry Wong]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like Dan's being a little kind because I'm also in the studio, but I would say a lot of hubris, really. And really trying to protect his reputation as an Asian American role model after making mistake after mistake after mistake. In this play, you'd have to be.

[Alison Stewart]

Are you really self aware? I mean, when you write something like this, you had to write your own flaws into your. Into your play.

[David Henry Wong]

I mean, there are a lot of autobiographical works. It's just that usually the author doesn't name the main character after themselves. And in this case I found, well, once I did that, I really needed to make him a character. So, yes, there are ways in which he's like me and then there are things that happen because it helps the plot and it helps the character. An arc and some redemption at the end.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

And I will say that I give David a lot of credit for not making himself a very shiny hero in his own work. He's very human, more than human. I'm not sure what that means exactly.

[Alison Stewart]

People like that.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

He presents himself as the butt of many of the jokes in this piece. And it takes a very healthy sense of self to allow people to laugh at you openly.

[Alison Stewart]

The original version of yellowface was around 2007.

[David Henry Wong]

2007.

[Alison Stewart]

Apparently this script has 30 minutes knocked off the length. Intermission is gone.

[David Henry Wong]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

What did you do to the script? Did you take fresh eyes to it? What did you do?

[David Henry Wong]

I do think that after A certain amount of time has passed. Both Leigh Silverman, the director, and I were able to look at the piece with a little more objectivity. We had originally intended it to be an intermission less evening, but the show is just too long. And I think most of the changes that have happened between 2007 and the 24 version just involved cutting and shaping and polishing. And there was stuff that we got rid of and then we didn't miss it.

[Alison Stewart]

Daniel, for you, I mean, you're on stage the whole time almost.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Have you seen the show also?

[Alison Stewart]

I saw it Saturday.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, yeah. No, you're there creatively. What does that do for you, being on stage the entire time? Almost the entire time. And then what are the challenges of it? I think I know the challenges, but I want to hear them from you.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Sure.

[David Henry Wong]

I tried to build in a bathroom break.

[Alison Stewart]

There's a bathroom.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

There's a key break somewhere in the show where I do get to use the bathroom. And I think that's really important. But, you know, I think it's really great to stay in the flow. It helps me stay in the flow of the play, you know, And I recognize that once we started doing run throughs, the audience really is seeing this show through this character's eyes. It's almost as if he's retelling and recounting the story. And so it requires him to be on stage. Even at moments when he's not necessarily speaking. Like during a scene where we're introduced to a character, the character of Wen Ho Lee, based on a real person, he's there watching. Because all of it, as we find out later, is born from his imagination or his perspective on real life issues. And so the challenges of it, of course, are that, you know, when, you know, as a performer, when you're feeling a little bit behind in a moment, you don't get that break to recoup, and you have to think on your feet and get back in. And that's been a fun challenge because there have been times where I've thought about a particular choice I just made, and I realized you don't have time to think about that now. There's one other one coming up, you know, and it's not fair to your other actors if you're not present with them and listening to them. So it's been a challenge. But that's been a great challenge.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, that's interesting, I think. I interviewed Sahim Ali, who talked about not having the intermission, how it just keeps you right there. Keeps you right with the characters and what they're saying.

[David Henry Wong]

Yeah, I mean, this is a play that Lee Silverman calls a shape shifter. And in the sense that it starts out as sort of a documentary, it turns into just all out farce and then it becomes sort of political and then it becomes very personal. And to be able to deliver that to an audience in one shot and just have them take that ride with you from the beginning to the end feels like the most effective presentation in yellowface.

[Alison Stewart]

You cast a white actor to be the lead in your play. It's sort of pre Internet, so you can't really check them out. You heard it from a friend. From a friend, From a friend. Why do you think DHH goes along with the white actor? Why doesn't he just say, wait, wait, no, no, no, we need to stop.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I think for him there's too much at stake. There's, as David mentioned, protecting his reputation. Especially as someone who protested the casting of a white actor previously and again, hubris, this idea that he can get away with it if he chooses to make these choices. And I think we've all been in positions where we have to make choices and sometimes the honest choice is the one that comes at the greatest cost.

[Alison Stewart]

Well into the play, Daniel's having a fight with dhh, is having a fight with the white character. And you call him a racial tourist. What does that mean to you?

[David Henry Wong]

Ethnic tourists? Yeah, the line is, you come in here with that face of yours and everyone falls at your feet, you ethnic tourist. So exactly. You have in the play the white actor, Marcus, not only gets David sort of covers up and gives him an Asian identity which is invented, but then Marcus runs with that and becomes sort of an Asian activist. An activist of the sort that David is not willing or able to be at that point in the story. And so David is saying, you know, he just skims the cream and gets to have the advantages without any of the real consequences.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Which I think is very funny too because he's criticizing Marcus in that moment for a mantle he could be taking. And he's criticizing the very creature he created.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, it's interesting because the actor, the white actor is saying, I like being part of something. I'm a Eurasian actor. I can be part of a community. I can be part of this. In your mind, when you think about it, is he wrong?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

No, absolutely not. I think that's what makes this play so human and universal. We all want to find a place of belonging. We all want to be validated in some way and Just because you're of one particular race or another race doesn't change that need. We all are looking for our home and our community. And I think that's what makes Marcus sympathetic.

[David Henry Wong]

But I mean, I would also add it's complicated because his need to be part of the community where his justification is based on a lie. You know, he's not actually a mixed race Asian. So hopefully it gives the audience stuff to chew over and discuss. After the show, I wrote in my.

[Alison Stewart]

Notes Rachel Doazal across the top. I thought about for people who are sort of like Rachel Doazal, she was a white woman who portrayed herself as a black woman, headed the naacp, and there was a big hoo ha. I'm wondering what you thought about that.

[David Henry Wong]

Well, I mean, it happened after the original production, and so I guess I thought in the original play, it seems likely to me that this sort of thing is going to happen as we move forward as a more multicultural, more diverse society, and that passing might end up going both ways. So, yeah, when the Rachel, I don't even know how to pronounce her last name case came around, and there are a couple others that have come up since, particularly in the publishing world, it's been, I don't know, either gratifying or horrifying.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

And by the way, you don't have to not be a member of a particular ethnic group to start using.

[Alison Stewart]

Kind.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Of the emphasis on identity and inclusion as a mask. There are a lot of Asian Americans who never cared about this issue until very recently. And then suddenly they've taken up the mantle. And the question is, how genuine is that? Or how much is that just going along with a rising tide?

[Alison Stewart]

And then to add another layer to it, in your cast, you have people playing against type. You have a woman playing a man. You have Marian Anderson. She plays Jane Krakowski. Kevin d' Aguila plays Ed Koch. How does this set up the audience to maybe understand the play better?

[David Henry Wong]

Well, in the original production, the casting was essentially binary. It was just sort of Asians and white people. And because society has moved on in some good ways by the time we get to 2024, we wanted this production to be more inclusive. So then there was the question of, okay, what does it mean? I mean, we're pretty used now to actors of color playing white people. Hamilton certainly has mainstreamed that. But what will it mean for actors of color to play other characters of color, not of their own ethnicity? And we try to be very mindful about the choices that we made. But to me, in A good and fun way. Maybe it pushes the envelope a little more. And it's something that people can talk about too.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

And just FYI, it's Mirinda Anderson and Kevin Del Aguila.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you for the names.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

They might be listening.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm glad you corrected me. The personal part of the story comes in. It's your father, Daniel. When you're thinking about dhh, what is DH having a hard time understanding about his dad?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

Well, I think as a second generation immigrant or a 1.5 generation immigrant, there are expectations, I think speaking as a one and a half, 1.5 generation that we can have of our country that sometimes recent immigrants do not have. And what I mean by that is, for instance, my family, my parents, when they came here, they thought of themselves as visitors to this country. And so they didn't think to question the issues that are problems in the country as much as to say, we're lucky to be here. Take what you're given and work hard, put your head down here. But as a 1.5 generation or a second generation who's grown up with the issues in our country, there's more. I think of a sense of ownership and I'll just speak for myself. And so when I see problems, I want to raise my voice and say, life is not. This place is not perfect. I 100% choose and love this, choose to live here and love this country. And at the same time, I can be a voice that helps shape this country. And I think that's kind of what DHH and his father are going through. His father has an American dream where he literally puts himself in the shoes of. Well, not literally puts himself in the shoes of, but he imagines himself to be white Americans, you know, as part of the American dream of the 50s and 60s. But I don't, in my interpretation, David's right here so he can comment. But David doesn't see the image of an American as necessarily Jimmy Stewart or one of the many characters that his father does.

[David Henry Wong]

Yeah, I think, you know, immigrants choose to come to America and many of them, such as my actual father, had an intense love for this country. They made the decision to uproot themselves and start over again in a new culture. And I think those of us who are born here, such as myself, our definition of what it means to be American also includes being critical, wanting to speaking up, and wanting to change this country so that it comes closer to fulfilling the ideals that define it best.

[Alison Stewart]

In the play, your father's being investigated by the US Government. It's a serious charge perhaps made with biased eyes by the government and by reporters from the New York Times. You redact their names. Easy Google search to find out who's who. What did you want to show about that time, especially when it came to your father?

[David Henry Wong]

Yeah, so my father, Everybody can Google search this. Got caught up in this sort of anti Chinese investigations in the late 90s. And he was accused of laundering money for China, essentially in the New York Times. And it seems important to revisit that both as investigation into the ways in which the sort of perpetual foreigner stereotype engulfs Asian Americans whenever there is any tension between the US and any Asian nation. And we saw that most recently during the pandemic which led to the spike in anti Asian hate. And one of the things that makes the play particularly relevant in 2024 is that we are currently going through one of those periods now where the deterioration and hostility in the relationship between the US And China has again started to impact Asian Americans, Chinese Americans. Chinese American scientists are again being investigated the same way that the Wen Ho Lee character in our play in the late 90s was. So all these things keep resurfacing in American history.

[Alison Stewart]

We got a text in it says, alison, we are reading this play as part of a program at Queen's Public Library, the Flushing Brants. Bravo.

[David Henry Wong]

Thank you so much.

[Alison Stewart]

That's such a great thing to see. You know, when I went to the theater on Saturday, I saw a lot of Asian Americans in the audience everywhere I went. What did they get to see?

[Daniel Dae Kim]

First of all, they get to be entertained. And I think I love that most of all, because our job, first and foremost, is to entertain. And when there are people in the audience who wait for me backstage or outside the stage door and they say to me, this is the first Broadway show I've ever seen, that is one of the biggest compliments that I can receive because it tells me that we're expanding the number of people who come to the theater. And I think, you know, that that couldn't be more important for a new generation of theater goers to know that that's part of the entertainment landscape. I would also say that I think it's really important for young Asian Americans in particular, because we're learning about this show is about our history. And, you know, those who don't know who David Henry Huang is and don't know what the controversy around Miss Saigon was, it's important that they do, because very often we're considered the silent minority that we do not speak up for ourselves. But we did have pioneers all throughout history who did that. And there are very necessary chapters of our history that are included in this play, like the murder of Vincent Chin, Wen Ho Lee. And by the way, this is not just Asian American history, this is American history. And I think if it spurs people to say what was that Vincent Chin story all about? Or who was Wen Ho Lee? Then I think we're serving a dual purpose.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you want to respond?

[David Henry Wong]

Well, needless to say, we are very fortunate to have Daniel because there are a fair number of Asian Americans who come to and people in general who come to see Daniel. But this whole where Broadway is looking for the theater is looking for new audiences. And that isn't going to happen as long as we keep appealing only to a narrow slice of the demographic, which in the relative scheme of things is becoming disproportionately smaller. So pieces like Yellowface, but also pieces about other communities that have been marginalized in the entertainment world, are so important in expanding our audiences as well as our definition of what constitutes the American theatrical canon.

[Daniel Dae Kim]

I think that's such an important point because a lot of the themes of this play apply to anyone who's had preconceived notions based on how they look. And that's not just Asian Americans. Muslim Americans are going through it right now and a number of other groups.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with playwright David Henry Wong and actor Daniel Dae Kim about their Tony nominated play Yellowface. You can stream a performance of the 2024 revival now on PBS through June 30th.

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