David Cronenberg and Diane Kruger Explore Grief in 'The Shrouds'

Summary

All Of It Podcast Summary: Exploring Grief and Technology in David Cronenberg’s 'The Shrouds'

Introduction

In this episode of ALL OF IT, hosted by Alison Stewart on WNYC, listeners are treated to an in-depth conversation with acclaimed writer-director David Cronenberg and versatile actress Diane Kruger. The episode delves into their collaborative work on the new film “The Shrouds,” exploring themes of grief, technology, and the human condition. Airing on April 16, 2025, this episode offers a comprehensive look into the film’s conception, production, and underlying philosophies.

Film Overview: 'The Shrouds'

“The Shrouds” presents a poignant narrative centered around Karsh, an entrepreneur coping with the loss of his wife, Becca, who succumbed to cancer. Driven by his inability to let go, Karsh invents Grave Tech, a company that creates high-tech shrouds enabling mourners to access live-streamed camera feeds of their deceased loved ones. This innovative yet unsettling technology allows Karsh to continually monitor Becca’s decaying body in her grave. The film also features Diane Kruger in a groundbreaking triple role as Becca, her sister Terry, and Honey, Karsh’s AI assistant designed to emulate Becca.

Director David Cronenberg’s Insights

David Cronenberg opens up about his motivations behind creating "The Shrouds," revealing that the film was partly inspired by the profound loss of his wife, Carolyn, in 2017. Cronenberg explains, “[...] once you start to write, it becomes fiction. [...] it's no longer a question of autobiography, it's a fictional” (02:35). He emphasizes the transformation of personal grief into a universal narrative through the collaborative and creative process of screenwriting.

Cronenberg discusses his approach to filmmaking, highlighting the importance of maintaining emotional distance on set to focus on the craft. “Once I'm making the film, it's not emotional. It's emotional in a cinematic way” (04:43). This professional detachment allows him to concentrate on elements like lighting, camera movement, and dialogue, ensuring the creation of compelling art without being overwhelmed by personal emotions.

Actress Diane Kruger’s Insights

Diane Kruger shares her experience portraying three distinct characters in "The Shrouds." She describes the challenge of distinguishing between Becca, Terry, and Honey, noting, “It took me a minute to figure it out... David had very clear ideas” (07:14). Kruger found joy in embodying Terry, a cynical dog groomer, and the whimsical AI assistant Honey, while acknowledging the emotional weight of playing Becca, Karsh’s deceased wife.

Kruger also reflects on her collaboration with Cronenberg, appreciating his supportive and trusting directorial style. “He trusts you. He expects you to be prepared and ready. But it's a collaboration” (06:32). This mutual respect fostered a productive environment, allowing Kruger to fully explore and bring depth to her multifaceted roles.

Themes and Motifs: Grief, Technology, and Humor

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the film’s exploration of grief intertwined with cutting-edge technology. Cronenberg elaborates on integrating humor into the narrative, asserting, “All of my movies are funny... it's like life. I don't know how you could get through life itself without humor” (09:11). This blend of dark humor and serious subject matter mirrors the complexity of human emotions in the face of loss.

The film also delves into the concept of paranoia as a coping mechanism for grief. Cronenberg explains, “Paranoia can create meaning... it empowers you” (19:46). By introducing conspiracy theories surrounding Becca’s death, Karsh seeks to find purpose and regain a sense of control amidst his helplessness, reflecting real-life tendencies to seek explanations for senseless tragedies.

Audience Reception: Varied Reactions

Cronenberg and Kruger discuss the diverse reactions their film received at different venues. While the Cannes Film Festival audience was more reserved, citing the film's heavy themes and the presence of the director in formal attire, screenings in Toronto garnered more laughter, aligning with the film’s intended balance of humor and tragedy. “At Cannes, there were not a lot of laughs... Toronto, full of laughter. Cause this is a Toronto movie screening” (09:54-10:41). This contrast highlights how cultural contexts influence audience interpretations and emotional responses.

Notable Moments and Scenes

One memorable segment discussed is a clip from the film where Karsh navigates the dating world post-loss, revealing his vulnerability and the lingering presence of his late wife. Kruger provides context for the scene: “Karsh is trying somehow to move on... it doesn't go so great” (11:54). The humor embedded in Karsh’s awkward attempts at dating juxtaposed with the underlying sorrow exemplifies the film’s nuanced storytelling.

Another poignant moment involves Becca’s physical deterioration, depicted with intense emotional and visual impact. Kruger describes the challenge of portraying Becca’s decay while maintaining the character’s dignity: “All of those scenes were very difficult for me to play... I felt very vulnerable” (16:31). Cronenberg aimed to capture the terrifying reality of illness without resorting to traditional flashbacks, focusing instead on the physical and emotional strain between Karsh and Becca.

Conclusion

As the conversation wraps up, both Cronenberg and Kruger emphasize the film’s release schedule: “The Shrouds” opens in New York theaters on Friday and nationwide on April 25th. They also hint at upcoming Q&A sessions in the city, offering fans an opportunity to engage directly with the creators. Cronenberg reflects on his legacy with a touch of humility, “I have totally let go of that process... I'm not gonna worry about my legacy” (22:43), underscoring his commitment to the artistic process over personal acclaim.

Final Thoughts

This episode of "All Of It" provides a rich and engaging exploration of "The Shrouds," offering listeners a window into the collaborative dynamics between Cronenberg and Kruger, the film’s thematic depth, and the nuanced performances that bring the story to life. With its balanced blend of personal insight, professional expertise, and thoughtful discussion, the episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone interested in contemporary cinema and the intricate portrayal of human emotions.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Cronenberg [02:35]: “[...] it's no longer a question of autobiography, it's a fictional.”
• David Cronenberg [04:43]: “Once I'm making the film, it's not emotional. It's emotional in a cinematic way.”
• Diane Kruger [07:14]: “It took me a minute to figure it out... David had very clear ideas.”
• David Cronenberg [09:11]: “All of my movies are funny... it's like life. I don't know how you could get through life itself without humor.”
• David Cronenberg [19:46]: “Paranoia can create meaning... it empowers you.”
• Diane Kruger [16:31]: “All of those scenes were very difficult for me to play... I felt very vulnerable.”
• David Cronenberg [22:43]: “I have totally let go of that process... I'm not gonna worry about my legacy.”

Release Information:

• Film Title: The Shrouds
• Release Date: April 16, 2025 (New York Theaters); April 25, 2025 (Nationwide)
• Q&A Sessions: Lincoln Center, Tomorrow Night and Friday Night

For those eager to delve into the intersection of grief and technology through the lens of masterful storytelling, “The Shrouds” emerges as a compelling cinematic experience, thoughtfully dissected in this enlightening episode of ALL OF IT.

Transcript

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[David Cronenberg]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I am really grateful that you are here. Coming up on the show today, we'll learn about some of the powerful images and a new exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art about early American photography. And we'll hear from Saratoga Shafer, the author of the new thriller Serial Killer. Support group that is our plan. So let's get this started with director David Cronenberg and actor Diane Kruger. In David Cronenberg's new film the Shrouds, a grieving man watches his wife's body decay in her grave, literally and lovingly. The movie follows Karsh, an entrepreneur whose wife Becca died of cancer. Driven by grief, Karsh invents Grave Tech. The company wraps bodies in high tech shrouds that allow mourners to access live stream camera feeds of their loved ones. Buried corpse Carsh really just can't let go of his wife. He checks in on her regularly. He has an AI assistant named Honey that's designed to look and sound like Becca. He spends time with Becca's sister Terry, who looks quite a bit like her. But when vandals destroy grave text burial plots, including Becca's, everything is upended. The Shrouds was written and directed by David Cronenberg, who was inspired in part by the loss of his wife Carolyn in 2017. And the movie stars Diane Kruger in three different roles as Karsh's wife Becca, as Becca's sister Terry, and as Honey, Karsh's AI assistant. The shrouds is in New York theaters on Friday. It opens nationwide on April 25th. David and Diane are doing a series of Q&As around the city, including film, at Lincoln center tomorrow night and Friday night. But first they join me in studio. It is nice to have you here.

[Diane Kruger]

Hi.

[David Cronenberg]

Great to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

David, why did you want to make this movie?

[David Cronenberg]

Well, you're never really sure when you start to write a screenplay. You don't really know what's going to in the old days, what's going to come up out of the typewriter. Certainly I knew that I felt I had to do something to address the loss of my wife of 43 years. But as soon as you start to write, it becomes fiction. So even though the sort of the incentive to do this comes from things that you've said, things that you've felt, events that you've lived through, once you start to write, you are creating fictional characters who take on a life of their own and start to push you around. They start to tell you what they like, what they don't like, what they're going to say. They surprise you, and you want that. You want them to come alive. And at that point, it's no longer a question of autobiography, it's a fictional.

[Alison Stewart]

Diane, what questions did you have before taking on this project?

[Diane Kruger]

Many. I remember reading the script and being quite taken aback by how, in a way, it felt different for a David Cronenberg film, even though all the themes that we know about his films are in there. I've been a fan of his work since I can remember, and so the opportunity to possibly get to work with him wasn't lost on me. But I remember meeting in Paris, and I didn't know that this was partly, partially based on his own experiences through the loss of his wife. So we met, and he sort of informed me of that. And so everything was different than what I thought. And I remember talking and talking for quite some time, few hours, and, yeah, just walking away with this sense of, wow, this is. It's very personal. It feels very emotional and very. And yet very uncomfortable as well, because we are uncomfortable with themes of death and bodies and. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Was it emotional for you in making the film?

[David Cronenberg]

Once I'm making the film, it's not emotional. It's emotional in a cinematic way. In other words, you are a filmmaker. You're a craftsperson, and it's the craft of filmmaking. So on the set, it's not like I'm sobbing through every scene. That reminds me of scenes that happen. It's. On the contrary, it's. I'm thinking about lighting, about camera movement, about, you know, the actors and their dialogue. And that's a good thing. I mean, you need distance. You can't be wallowing in it and make, I think, great art at the same time. You need a sense of distance. So it's really gets emotional first time you have a screening. You know, when we screened it at Cannes, I mean, that was pretty emotional, because suddenly it's a movie and it touches you.

[Alison Stewart]

Directors always tell me that they are. Their job is to make decisions. That director's job is to make decisions repeatedly. Repeatedly. Repeatedly. What was a decision that you made on this film that. That turned out to be really important?

[David Cronenberg]

Well, casting. I mean, really, it's a part of directing that is not usually addressed in film schools and so on. But a huge part of directing is done before you're making the movie and it's casting. And when you have someone like Diane, who really is a fabulous actress, it takes a huge burden off you because it's her reaction to the characters, her reactions to the dialogue. I try not to direct very much, and I think Diane can.

[Alison Stewart]

Diane's eyes just got huge.

[David Cronenberg]

Yeah, it's true.

[Diane Kruger]

It is true. You know, it's so funny because, I mean, funny as an actor, before you meet a director, you have all these ideas of what they're going to be like, and especially when you know a director really well.

[Alison Stewart]

Sure.

[Diane Kruger]

And his films, you know, have a certain style. They're all different, but they have similar. Similar things throughout them. And so to me, I thought, oh, you know, David is going to be this cold, very precise, very demanding alien that I'm going to meet, and he's like the opposite of all of that. So just that took me aback. And then, yeah, he couldn't be lovelier. And he just. What's lovely about it is that he trusts you. He expects you to be prepared and ready. But it's a collaboration, you know, he trusts that you know what you're doing, and he helps you get that done. But he steps back, like you said.

[David Cronenberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are writer and director David Cronenberg and actor Diane Kruger. Were talking about their new movie, the Shrouds. So, Diane, you play three different characters in this film. You play Cars, dead wife Becca, you play her sister Terry and AI named Honey. How did you think about each of these characters as separate people, but also separate people who are connected to one another?

[Diane Kruger]

Yeah, it took me a minute to figure it out. Thankfully, David had very clear ideas and he told me a lot about not just the people that inspired those characters, but just in general, what he expected me to do. I had a lot of fun with Terry. You know, playing a dog groomer and just being this slightly cynical person in life was a lot of fun. Becca, you know, she's a very. She's sick. So you see her in various degrees of her illness taking over. They are scenes of great tenderness and emotion, and in a way, very lovely scenes to play because you feel a lot of stuff. And, yeah, I felt I loved her. And then, yeah, buddy, Honey was me in a suit and Being silly, really. I had so much fun.

[David Cronenberg]

Yeah. I mean, she's in a motion capture suit in a sort of empty warehouse with 14 cameras around. So it's a different kind of acting, but it's still acting.

[Diane Kruger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Alison Stewart]

David. In one of the first scenes in the film, a dentist tells Karsh, who's in a chair, that his teeth are rotting. And there's a sort of a darkly funny moment when he asks if he wants JPEG of the picture, at least. I kind of laughed when I heard that. I'm like, just ask this man, does he want JPEGs of his dead wife's teeth? When you were writing the script, what was the experience like to write funny, dark, funny lines all while attending to a very serious subject of grief?

[David Cronenberg]

To me, there's no difference. I mean, the line was, grief is rotting your teeth. And that was the first line that I thought of, the first line of dialogue that I thought of for the movie. And it actually set up the whole movie for me, I must say. But all of my movies are funny. I mean, I know they're considered to be dark and horrific and this and that, but they're also very funny. And it's like life. I mean, I don't know how you could get through life itself without humor. I think we have. Humans have evolved a sense of humor in order to deal with the rest of the stuff that their brains are doing, you know, their understanding of life and death and all of that.

[Alison Stewart]

Do different audiences experience it different ways?

[David Cronenberg]

Definitely, yeah. Yeah. And you accept that as a filmmaker. I mean, you look forward to experiencing it. For example, our Cannes Film Festival screening, there were not a lot of laughs, you know, and it's partly because the Cannes Festival audience is a sort of odd one, because it's partly distributors, partly industry people, and some locals. And I think they also thought, well, it's about grief and loss and death, and maybe we shouldn't laugh because there's the director in his tuxedo. How can we laugh at. But then a screening in Toronto. Wall to all laughter. Cause this is a Toronto movie screening in New York Film Festival. Wall to all laughter. Which, to me, is correct. That's the right response.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you agree that it should be laughing in this movie as well?

[Diane Kruger]

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely funny moments in this. I've seen it a few times. And it, to be honest, gets funnier the more I watch it, because, I guess, as you said, I let go a little bit of everything else that's going on, but I will definitely say that when I first watched had a very strong impact on me. Just about like the ending and whoa. I'd never really seen a film like this. And I was equally disturbed and amused. But also I felt really bad about death and all these questions that just like, you know, I got to do something. It's my time soon. And as time has passed, I was just saying to David, it has really stuck with me. And it evolves like now that I, when I watch it, I see so much beauty and so much love and I see the absurdity and the AI thing. And it's just there's so much in this film that I think a lot of people can appreciate.

[Alison Stewart]

We're gonna play a clip from the shrouds. It's gonna be when Karsh, he's just starting to enter the dating world again and he's deciding to tell his sister in law Terry about it. You wanna set us up a little bit?

[Diane Kruger]

Say that again.

[Alison Stewart]

What's going on with Karsh and Terry? It's when he's first telling her about going on a date.

[Diane Kruger]

Oh yes. So Karsh is, you know, trying somehow to move on, find love again or at least date. And so he goes on this date with this lady and his first date, he takes her to the graveyard where his wife's buried and is telling her about the shrouds technology. And yeah, it doesn't go so great.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's listen to this clip from the shrouds.

[Diane Kruger]

Another bad date last night. Was she put off by your desperation? Like the last one?

[David Cronenberg]

I'm out of practice. It's been decades since I had to seduce a woman. I'm never really sure whether I'm flirting or not.

[Diane Kruger]

That's what you get for having had a successful marriage. I don't have that problem.

[David Cronenberg]

Should I give up trying to find a girlfriend or should I just sink gracefully into terminal asexuality?

[Diane Kruger]

You'll never replace Becca.

[David Cronenberg]

I'm not trying to.

[Alison Stewart]

Meanwhile, she's just sort of grooming a dog. Yeah. As they're talking about this, why does Karsh decide it's time to date?

[David Cronenberg]

I think it's just really the essence, you know, the life force in general. You know, he's a high tech entrepreneur and he thinks in terms of high tech solutions to everything, including his grief. But I think he comes to a point where he realizes that that can only go so far to providing a life for you. He's still a relatively young man and he. It's just life force that finally Says to him, okay, it's time, you know, see. See if you can fashion a life with another woman.

[Alison Stewart]

Meanwhile, he develops this technology, these shrouds, which you can wrap someone in. What kind of research did you do into burial practices to help you move this story along with the idea of shrouds being a big part of it?

[David Cronenberg]

Well, I originally was thinking of this movie as perhaps being the beginning of a series. And I thought that because burial practices vary so hugely from culture to culture, and some are quite strange and interesting, and it's always involving economics and politics and religion and all kinds of things that you could really get quite deeply into it if you were this entrepreneur and you were trying to establish these strange sort of. He calls it the religion of tech, you know, high tech, to go to a Catholic country or a Muslim country and try to establish these strange kind of high tech cemeteries. So you'd run into a lot of interesting people and situations so that. That, you know, it's. So I did do a lot of research because of that and that it feel. You can feel it in the movie. I mean, it's alluded to often, but we don't go to these other countries. But the. The feeling that that will happen, that he will try to expand his empire of high tech cemeteries is there.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are writer and director David Cronenberg and actor Diane Kruger. Were talking about their new movie, the Shrouds. It's about a grieving man who invents a way to watch his wife's corpse decay in their grave and all kinds of things happen. It opens in New York theaters on Friday and nationwide on April 25. Without giving too much away, Terry and Karsh, your character, Terry and Karsh, they start to. They take their relationship to a new level. We'll just say that much. What do you think is drawing them together?

[Diane Kruger]

The sister, you know, and his wife. And I think that's sort of the. The guiding pose throughout the film is that the. The ghost of Becca is very much there. No matter where he turns, no matter how much he would like to move on or find love again, he can't escape her and everything. And everybody has to measure up to that, I guess, to a certain extent. At least that's how I saw it. So for her, it's great loss, too. She lost her sister. There was rivalry between them, as there often are between sisters, but she loved her sister and she loved them, and she loves her. Him in a way. I think that. And the jealousy or the idea of losing him to another woman because now he's, you know, dating in the movie is pretty sad. It's almost like death again, you know, that's very.

[David Cronenberg]

That's good. I like that interpretation. Yeah. I mean, Terry, she. That's how she can keep her sister alive is sort of to become her sister in this relationship.

[Alison Stewart]

In the film, you play Becca in these dream sequences and sometimes they're disturbing, sometimes they're heartbreaking. We see the decay of her body. How did you approach these really charged scenes, Diane?

[Diane Kruger]

I gotta be honest, all of those scenes were very difficult for me to play. I don't often do a lot of nude scenes. It's not my. Not that I'm a prude. I just don't find them necessary often. And I don't find them appealing often as a viewer, you know. So, yeah, so I felt very vulnerable, I have to be honest. Plus the added, you know, losing an arm, being in the illness of it all wasn't easy, you know, so that combined with being nude and then having to play these very emotionally charged scenes on top of it, they were very sad. I felt her presence very much and I felt David very much. And I felt like I was treating. I had to treat lightly with how I treated her because I loved her so much, you know, I loved their relationship so much.

[Alison Stewart]

It was a heartbreaking scene when her hip cracks as her husband is cradling her. That was.

[Diane Kruger]

Oh, yeah, it was like. I remember reading it the first time and like. Yeah, it's just so, you know, the need to be held and to be touched, no matter what's going on, how old you are, how sick you are. It just really hit me.

[Alison Stewart]

David, what did you want to evoke with these sequences with Becca?

[David Cronenberg]

I didn't really want to do sort of the traditional flashback to happy times, you know, when you went to that spa in Norway and when you had the kids birthday party and stuff like that. I really thought it would be Karsh would be focusing on, you know, the end of their relationship and the pain of the relationship. And yes, he's totally body focused. But of course, when somebody is sick like that, their body becomes the focus of an entire family. For example, everybody's worried about, you know, the doctor, the chemotherapist, the radiologist, you know, and what they said about the body and so on. So I was really trying to combine all those things and the sort of kind of nightmare moments when the couple have to deal with her sickness, which is very physical, it involves some amputations and so on. And at the same Time deal with their continuing love and passion, physical passion for each other. So that's basically was my approach to Becca's sickness.

[Alison Stewart]

We should also add there's a degree of paranoia in this film. People have different ideas about why certain people died. David, why did you want to add paranoia to the mix?

[David Cronenberg]

Because it has been my observation that that often happens when there's a sickness like this. Because what happens to Becca is basically impossible. I mean, it's unacceptable. It's unbearable. And it's also. It seems random and without meaning. And we also have evolved to look for meaning everywhere. And the death, this sort of random death of someone in the family who's been hit by a car or run over or dies of a disease very young, there's. It's. It's too random to accept. And so one of the ways that you can create meaning is through a conspiracy theory. The doctors did not take care of her well enough. They used the wrong chemotherapy. We should have taken her to some other clinic or perhaps the doctors were actually experimenting on her. What if that's possible? You know, so that. That strangely gives you. Empowers you. Instead of being feeling helpless and with no meaning in your life, suddenly you can see through what's really the facade and see what's really happening. It empowers you. You feel very special. And I've actually seen that happen in situations like that over the years. So I was basically. I don't see that too much in movies, but I have seen it in life.

[Alison Stewart]

It's so interesting because our next guest is. It's called the Good Death is her book. And she was a registered nurse who started a sort of a death Doula Institute to teach people about how to have a good death.

[David Cronenberg]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

It's really interesting to hear you say that.

[David Cronenberg]

Yeah. Well, a good conspiracy can help you through death.

[Alison Stewart]

Diane, how has this changed the way you think about death?

[Diane Kruger]

Oh, my gosh, I don't know. It's.

[Alison Stewart]

Or life. You could say that about life, too.

[Diane Kruger]

Yeah. You know, in a way, it's made me hopeful to be more aware of it, to say that while I am here, we should make the most of not just the spiritual idea of being in love, but also the physicality of it. To be present, to enjoy the time that is left. One of the lines that broke me the most in this film is when Karsh says, you know, I just couldn't. I just wanted to be in there. It seemed so unfair that she would be alone in death. And that really struck me. And so I'm, I hear that. And I try to figure out how that, how that could be avoided, you know, if you found, if you're so lucky to find a person that you love, you know, whatever that means.

[Alison Stewart]

Dave, right now on the Criterion Channel, there's your film streaming going all the way back to 1969 stereo. How do you hope your films resonate with people who may be discovering your work for the first time?

[David Cronenberg]

I have totally let go of that process, yes. Really, I don't care. I mean, you care about it, but I can't really care about it. I can't really control it, and I'm not really worrying about it. I have to say, when people say, you know, it's a very French thing, for example, say monsieur Cronenberg, how do you think your legacy will affect, you know, And I say I after I'm dead, I'm not gonna worry about my legacy, frankly.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests have been writer and director David Cronenberg and actor Diane Krueger. We've been talking about their new movie, the Shrouds. It opens in New York theaters on Friday and nationwide on April 25th. And I believe you have a Q and A happening tomorrow in the city. So thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it.

[David Cronenberg]

It's been a pleasure.

[Diane Kruger]

Thank you.

[Progressive Insurance]

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