Podcast Summary: Deborah Willis Reflects on 25 Years of 'Reflections in Black'
- Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
- Host: Alison Stewart
- Guest: Deborah Willis (Photographer, NYU Professor)
- Air Date: November 3, 2025
Main Theme & Purpose
This episode commemorates the 25th anniversary of Deborah Willis' groundbreaking book, Reflections in Black, which surveys nearly 200 years of Black photographers' work in America. With a new, expanded edition—Reflections in Black: A Reframing—and a companion exhibit at NYU, Willis reflects on the cultural, historical, and personal impact of Black photography, the evolution of visual narratives, and the photographers who have redefined representation from the 19th century to today.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Genesis of Reflections in Black
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Personal Motivation
- Willis began her research as an undergraduate, struck by the absence of Black photographers in textbooks.
- Growing up in a Philadelphia beauty shop, Willis was exposed to influential images in Ebony, Life, and National Geographic.
- Quote:
"I was a sophomore questioning where the black photographers in our history books... no black photographers were referenced."
— Deborah Willis (01:12)
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Unearthing Hidden Histories
- Willis described combing through 19th-century Black press archives, contacting historical societies, and reaching out to families to uncover lost photographers.
- Quote:
"The difficult part was just finding the images. I found the names and then I decided to write to historical societies as well as to libraries, contacting families to identify."
— Deborah Willis (02:22)
Pioneering Figures in Black Photography
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Addison Scurlock
- Renowned for chronicling both everyday life and Black excellence in Washington, D.C., especially as Howard University’s photographer.
- His studio became a vital space for Black migration, intellectualism, and culture.
- Quote:
"Both [his sons] taught Mrs. Kennedy photography during the 60s... The studio was basically the hub, when migration—Blacks from the south—were moving and education at Howard..."
— Deborah Willis (03:14)
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James Van Der Zee
- Willis shared her experience seeing his work in the Met’s 1969 "Harlem on My Mind" exhibit, which transformed her understanding of photography’s power in capturing community and protest.
- Quote:
"It was important for me as a photography student to see images and to translate the images into beauty, to protest, and see how communities develop..."
— Deborah Willis (04:32)
What’s New in the 25th Anniversary Edition: A Reframing
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Expanding the Frame
- The new edition incorporates over 130 images, emphasizing global perspectives by including the African diaspora (UK, Caribbean, West and South Africa).
- Quote:
"It was important for us to really think about the inclusiveness of photography within the African diaspora and how photographers were telling stories and recreating memories for all of us to absorb."
— Deborah Willis (05:32)
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Recent Notables
- Willis references Ernest Cole (subject of Raoul Peck’s new film) as an example of overlooked diasporic photographers now getting attention.
- Quote:
"It's just a fantastic way of thinking about the diaspora and how [Ernest Cole] visited New York and made photographs that we did not know about."
— Deborah Willis (06:29)
Visual Representation & Politics of Portraiture
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The Camera as Counter-Narrative
- Willis supports bell hooks’ assertion that cameras offered Black Americans a tool to disprove racist imagery, documenting nuance, activism, and joy.
- Quote:
"Having the opportunity to use the camera was documenting and representing the people in the community... It just showed that people were human, that they had fun, that they mourned."
— Deborah Willis (08:15)
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Photography in Social and Political Movements
- Photographs served as both evidence and testimony, capturing the realities, struggles, and beauty often denied or ignored.
- Quote:
"We see photography as evidence... We see it also as a way of saying this is where we are, this is who we are and this is family and this is work..."
— Deborah Willis (09:54) - On civil rights activists dressing up for protests:
"They wanted the people who were stopping them to see them as human, to see them as part of the next generation..."
— Deborah Willis (10:55)
The Power and Legacy of Portraiture
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Studio Photography as an Act of Desire and Hope
- Willis describes photo studios as “theaters of desire”, spaces where subjects project aspirations for themselves and future generations.
- Quote:
"When we think about that as a place where people walked into a photographic studio... imagine how our lives will be for the future... These photographs would last and be part of a future generation."
— Deborah Willis (11:57)
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Favorites from the Book
- Highlights Gordon Parks’ iconic “American Gothic” portrait of Ella Watson and a contemporary prom-night photo by Scheherazade Tillet, each emblematic of dignity and community.
- Quote:
"The young person has her grandmother and her mother dressing her, preparing her for prom... there's a community of women who are photographing and helping to shape her desire to be beautiful and have a grand night."
— Deborah Willis (13:10) - Also mentions Chuck Stewart’s photographs of John and Alice Coltrane, which evoke both “silence” and creative partnership (14:11).
Community & Continuity Among Black Photographers
- Willis recounts the vibrant networks among Black photographers, including the Kamoinge Workshop in NYC and Kwame Brathwaite’s “Black Is Beautiful” collective.
- Quote:
"There was the Kimungae Workshop, and then there was Kwame Brathwaite's group... They had a sense of connection."
— Deborah Willis (15:38) - Stories like Teenie Harris’ "Double V Campaign" skirt photographs further highlight visual activism.
Generational Change and the Next Wave
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New Voices: Tyler Mitchell and More
- Willis celebrates students like Tyler Mitchell (first Black photographer to shoot a Vogue cover) and Denise Hewitt, noting their fearless creativity and emphasis on Black rest, fashion, and leisure.
- Quote:
"Tyler is actually photographing young people, the generation from fashion to play and to leisure... young millennials who are stylizing themselves, but also writing and making a new community..."
— Deborah Willis (18:21)
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Family Archives as Inspiration
- Willis says many of her students turn to their family photo albums to study lineage and community, exemplified by student Gabby Gates’ exploration of her mixed South African and Southern roots (19:09).
Art, Family, and the Importance of Storytelling
- Passing Down the Legacy
- Willis speaks movingly about nurturing her son, artist Hank Willis Thomas. His fascination with rearranging family photo albums as a child grew into powerful conceptual art, including public monuments like "The Embrace" in Boston.
- Quote:
"He would rearrange a visual story in the album, in the family album. So early on, he was reconstructing and thinking about photography in this way and asking difficult questions."
— Deborah Willis (20:37) - On Hank’s evolution:
"His interest has not only been two dimensional, it's now going into three dimensional, because he wants people to have an experience of the work of the people, but also the love of community."
— Deborah Willis (21:28)
The Black Portraiture[s] Conference
- Building Global Dialogue
- Willis co-created Black Portraiture[s], a conference exploring the breadth of African diasporic portraiture, held in cities across the world (South Africa, Florence, Tulsa, Los Angeles).
- Quote:
"We wanted to have a broader conversation about black portraiture... We want stories told. We want writers and artists to exchange stories about what it means to make a portrait."
— Deborah Willis (22:06)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Reframing History:
"How do we tell the story again and again so that it's not forgotten the way that it was forgotten when I was a student."
— Deborah Willis (05:15) -
On Black Beauty and Political Agency:
"Black women have to be political about their work... She's recreating the models that have been missed in 19th century photography."
— Deborah Willis, on Maude Salter’s portrait (06:54) -
On the Value of the Camera:
"The camera was the central instrument by which blacks could disprove representations of us created by white folk."
— Quoting bell hooks; elaborated at (08:15) -
On Community in Photography:
"I spent most of my life documenting the photographers. And when I had a chance to meet some of these photographers, I shared my experience. And they were really happy that I noticed them."
— Deborah Willis (16:51)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 00:09 — Introduction and impact of Reflections in Black
- 01:12 — Willis’ impetus for writing the book
- 02:20 — Research methods; finding lost Black photographers
- 03:00–04:40 — On Addison Scurlock and James Van Der Zee
- 05:14 — What’s new in the anniversary edition: reframing & global reach
- 06:48 — Significance of Maude Salter on the book cover
- 08:15 — The camera as a tool for rewriting Black narratives
- 09:54 — Photography as evidence and activism
- 11:57 — The importance of portraiture for Black identity
- 12:57 — Most meaningful portraits in the book
- 15:38 — Black photographers’ communities
- 17:44 — The new generation: Tyler Mitchell and students
- 19:09 — Students exploring their own archives and histories
- 20:19 — Instilling artistic curiosity in her son, Hank Willis Thomas
- 22:06 — Creating the Black Portraiture[s] conference
Conclusion
The conversation is both a retrospective on the transformation of Black photography over 25 years and a forward-looking meditation on legacy, memory, and representation. Through Reflections in Black: A Reframing, Deborah Willis invites us to consider not just who has made images, but whose stories those images carry—and how reframing that history can inspire generations to come.
For information on the exhibition and book:
- Reflections in Black: A Reframing publishes November 18, 2025
- The NYU Tisch exhibit runs through December 21, 2025