← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Delroy Lindo and Miles Caton on Fighting Vampires in 'Sinners'
00:33:39
"Sinners" stars Miles Caton and Delroy Lindo discuss their roles in the film.
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- [00:08]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. We're devoting the rest of our show to the movie Sinners. The movie is a wonder because it grossed nearly $368 million worldwide and it touched on issues like ownership, Jim Crow music and, yes, vampires. The story is set in Clarksdale, Mississippi. A juke joint is about to open and all heaven and hell break loose. Coming up later this hour, we'll speak with Saul Williams. He portrayed the preacher Jedediah and he's also a Grammy nominated recording artist. But first, let's get this hour started with two of the film's other actors, Miles Caton and Delroy Lindo. One of the defining relationships of the hit movie Sinners is between the characters Delta Slim and Sammy, past and future, unk and son. Redeemed and tempted, they are played by a star's stage and screen, Delroy Lindo and newcomer with so much talent, Miles Caton. The character of Delta Slim has seen a lot on the surface. He's a local, he likes a drink or two. He plays a mean harmonica, but he has greater wisdom than a passerby might realize. Sammy loves to play the guitar, but as the preacher's boy, the blues and the temptation that comes with it, it's not allowed. That is, until his cousins show up from Chicago and they plan to open a juke joint. At first, Delt dismisses Sam. He's a kid who doesn't know nothing about the blues. But as the film progresses and the characters reckon with faith, desire and the devil, Delta Slim and Sammy realize their connection is deeper than they thought. Not only was Sinners a box office hits, it's an award show presence. Sinners is streaming now. I'm excited to have both Delroy Lindo in studio. It's nice to meet you.
- [01:59]
B
Thank you. Thank you.
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A
And Miles Caton, who is fresh off his critics choice win for best young actor or actress. Congratulations to you.
- [02:06]
C
Thank you.
- [02:07]
A
What did you think when you first read Ryan Coogler's script, Delroy?
- [02:12]
B
I recognized that it was brilliant in as much as it was a much larger story, a much larger narrative, and that Ryan was using the horror or the vampire genre to tell a much, much, much larger story. And I connected with that almost immediately.
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A
When you first heard that Ryan Coogler was going to do this film, you had an audition tape and we heard that it was a dark audition tape. Well, first off, tell me about this audition tape.
- [02:49]
C
Yeah, so it was one of, I want to say one of like three audition tapes that I had sent in. And this one in particular was just a. A video of me singing a song and playing guitar. So I was, you know, normally, like, coming from the music side when I would do videos. When I do, like, covers or stuff like that, I normally go for, like, a more ambient type of vibey lighting. So I'd never done a self tape audition before, so I didn't know the parameters or the guidelines. So I just did me and I just sent in the vibey, you know, kind of. I don't think it was that dark. I mean, they saw something, but, yeah, that was kind of what it was.
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A
Do you remember what you played?
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C
I played Bring It All Home to Me by Sam Cooke.
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A
Oh, well. Anybody listen to that? That's all right. Delmarae, I've heard you talk about how collaborative Ryan is as a director, with his cast and with his crew. What does that open for you as an actor? How does that help you be creative?
- [04:01]
B
It establishes a trust almost immediately. When there is trust, one can relax and because one is aware that the lines of communication are open constantly. And there is, and this is another term that I've used to describe Ryan. There's a generosity of spirit. He's open to what everybody has to contribute. Now, he may not use everything, but he's very, very open to hearing what people have to. What his collaborators have to say to him. And that was certainly the case in my case.
- [04:34]
A
What does trust mean to you with a director?
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B
That's a great question. That's a great question. That's a great. I think it means one can relax inside of whatever one's process is, and one can be assured that one can offer opinions, offer feedback to the material, and that it will be heard. And also it means that one is more likely to take chances in the work. Creative, artistic chances in the work. I think that's what it means to me.
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A
Miles Delroy is a veteran of acting. What did you learn from him?
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B
Oh, don't ask him that.
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A
You shush, you shush.
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C
Wow. Wow, wow.
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B
Make it good, brother.
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C
So, so, so much. I mean, more than I think than what he said or what he told me, but just by watching him and seeing his process and how he approaches his work was extremely inspiring and something I paid extreme detail to, you know, this being my first time, you know, really acting and taking on this big challenge. This was definitely, like, the greatest challenge of my life so far, you know, and, you know, on this journey, and I had to, you know, finding my process was definitely something that was really, I knew was gonna Be really important for this. For this process and for this role. And so once I got to set and I was able to see, like, what everybody was doing, I was able to see Delroy, and, you know, grew up, you know, seeing him in films and just being able to see his process and how he is able to get into character and what he does to get himself to the place that he needs to be was just something that I really wanted to incorporate into my own work. And so there was a particular scene that he did as well that we'll probably talk about it later, but I just. He improv'd, and it just. It was. To be in that moment. It kind of took me outside of, like, what I. What I was in. I feel like we were in the moment, but at the same time, it brought me, like, to, like, 20. Well, 20, 24 at the time. It brought me to the present moment just understanding the work that he was doing. When it comes to the blues and when it comes to understanding why those people were making the music that they were making at that time, the choices that Delroy made acting in that scene made it so clear, and I could feel it in my core. So, yeah, man, just being able to see him working and just having the honor to hear him speak and be around him for that period of time was a blessing.
- [07:56]
A
We'll talk about that scene in a minute. But Delroy, you know, this is Miles film debut. And as an experienced actor, what did you get out of working with somebody their first time? You know, because sometimes you can kind of forget when you're working with actors who've done this before, but when you work with somebody for the first time, what was something you were reminded of?
- [08:19]
B
What I'm reminded of specifically with Miles. And I'm thinking about this right now in this moment as I'm listening to him. And Miles has something in common with a young lady that I worked with many years ago, Aaliyah, who also came from the music world. And they both have an openness. Miles has an openness. There was no artifice. There was no. He was there to contribute, to. Bring himself naturally and very, very open. And that made working with him that much. I mentioned the word trust. I trusted unequivocally that whenever I communicated. And I've not said this to him. I'm saying it right now on air. But I trusted that whenever I communicated with Miles in the work, he would be open to receive what I was communicating. And that came with a certain responsibility. But he was always very present, period. The End he was present. And I think that we see that in his work in the film. And it was functioning on a number of levels. His this, as you say, young actor, his first film. But as Sammy, he's infusing all of those qualities into what he's doing inside the work, and it made the work that much richer.
- [09:57]
A
Do you think being. Having your background in music sets you up for this film in a different way?
- [10:02]
C
100%, yeah. Essentially, that's what got me there. But, yeah, just growing up in a musical family and understanding artistry and understanding music and the power that it has from Young, I think is something that was extremely important, this film. And even with my knowledge of music being on. On this project, I've learned and I understand it now on a much, much deeper level, you know, understanding how important blues has been for the genres that we listen to today. And, yeah, the music was. Was definitely a kind of like a life raft for me, like a safety for me, you know, being on this project, being that, you know, acting was so new for me and I'm in a new environment and it's different circumstances that I haven't really seen before. I had music to kind of carry me through that. Listening to the essential blues playlist that Ryan sent me when we first started working on the project, listening to Charlie Patton, you know, Muddy Waters, Buddy Guys, all these blues musicians that I would be able to draw inspiration from for my character, for the sound and. And just for understanding, you know, what they were going through during that time.
- [11:21]
A
I'm speaking with actors Delroy Lindo and Miles Caton. You know them from the movie Sinners. This movie has so many levels to it. It's a love story. It's a story about the ancestors. A story is about having your own. About the relationship between Irish and blacks at the time. And then there are the vampires which come into the film. Delroy, what do the vampires mean to you in this movie?
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B
They represent. The vampires represent any evil force, any outside force that would come into a community, try to infiltrate that community, and figuratively and literally try to possess that community. It's all about our community being infiltrated and destroyed, which we fight back against. And that, for me, makes it a very, very, very contemporary story.
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A
It's interesting, though, miles. The first 48 minutes of the movie, it's really about establishing the characters in Mississippi in their world and where they come from.
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B
That's right, yeah.
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A
What effect do you think that has on us appreciating those characters in the latter half of the film?
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C
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important because you have to, I think to relate to somebody, you kind of have to be able to see their story. You kind of, you have to kind of know what their life looks like outside of what they're showing you or what the main purpose is. And so you see that these people are, you know, they're human and they're experiencing things that, you know, is some. These are timeless experiences that we've all been through. So that first part of the movie, when you're seeing, you know, everyone's character, you're seeing, you know, what drives them. For Sammy, you know, he is a 19 year old sharecropper, a pastor's kid, and he lives like this redundant life cycle of sharecropping, you know, going back home, going to church, and then Saturdays are his day off where he, you know, he tries to go and pursue his dreams and then you have that fight that he has with his, you know, his father. But, you know, you understand why he's doing what he's doing. You understand why when he goes with his cousins and he gets to the juke, he is performing the way he is, you know, because he's searching for something else. But without that backstory, you wouldn't really understand it.
- [13:47]
B
And I want to say that that's the genius. One of the aspects of this, the way that this story unfolds, that's genius because Ryan and the story, they take the time to estab all of us in our natural environments, our natural habitats, so to speak. So that in doing that, when the vampires show up, we see very clearly what it is that they're aspiring to possess. Like, again, literally and figuratively.
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A
What is Delta Slim's reputation in town? Delroy, when we meet him.
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B
You know, that's a really good. That's a, that's another great question because as you referenced at the beginning of this interview, on the surface we see, let me say this, he's a revered musician no matter what, but a musician, a human being who is self medicating. And we come to find out why he is self medicating. But to answer your question, I think he's. There's a certain reverence for him. However, he's also somebody who is so steeped in the self medicating that a lot of people may make the mistake of dismissing him as just quote unquote, a drunk. But let me say this. In the opening scene with Sammy and Stack and I say, I've been at Messengers for Messengers is the juke joint the rival juke joint that Stack is trying to pull me away from. But think about this. And I'm thinking about this right now. I've been at Messengers. I've been playing at Messengers every Saturday night for over. For multiple years. I would not have that gig if I were not a really, really strong musician. They wouldn't hire me to do that, you know, so the fact that I am. I've had this steady gig for multiple years, I think is indicative of the depth of my artistry, even though I am self medicating, which also is very, very contemporary.
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A
It was interesting you said self medicating because there's a scene when he's drinking from a bottle and your hand shakes a little bit, like, yeah, oh my gosh, you have that. You have that alcohol available to me if I agree to go with you. That was a. It was a short moment, but it was an important moment.
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B
Ryan Coogler. Ryan Coogler. Ryan Coogler. Ryan Coogler time and time again. Now, I was not aware that my hand was shaking, but I'm saying Ryan Coogler, because this is the palette, this is the environment that he presented to us that we could plop ourselves down into and be. And he set the stage for us to be as full and as complete. I mean, we had to do the work, but he certainly set the environment, the stage for us that we could do that kind of. That depth of work. Again, it reverts back to the trust in the opening scene where Sammy, where preacher boy comes with Stack to try to entice me to go with them. As we started rehearsing that scene, I said, man, I said to Ryan, I feel like I want to stand up, man, at a certain point. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. This is your throne. This is. This is right, right. He said, no, don't stand up. This is your throne. And I didn't argue. I did the scene seated. But he was right. He was right. And later on in the film, in another scene in the car where I said I wanted to stand up. Our lines of communication were such that he understood. He resisted initially, but then he said, no, let's give it a shot. So that's an example of the open lines of communication that existed between myself, all the actors, and Ryan as director.
- [18:09]
A
What does Sammy think of Delta Slim when he first meets him?
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C
Sammy thinks and knows that he's a legend. You know, I think you also see when they're going through the train station, you see how Sammy is kind of looking around he's seeing other musicians there, other, you know, players that he may be familiar with. But when he sees Delta Slim, that's like, that's Delta Slim. That's a legend. That's legend. Much like how we sitting right here right now, he's a legend. And he doesn't. I don't think he knows that fact about Delta Slim, that he's, quote unquote, a drunk or he drinks a lot. And then later on, you see. I mean, you see Sammy kind of putting the clues together when Stack offers the bear. And then later on when Delta Slim tells a story of him and his buddy Rice, you kind of understand the story. And even in that, Sammy asks, what did you do? You know, what did you do with the money? And Delta Slim says, he drank it all. So I think, you know, that that might have been a thing. But I think overall, when it. When it comes to Delta Slim, he's definitely a revered, you know, musician, and he's loved.
- [19:22]
A
We're talking about the movie Sinners with Delroy Lindo and Miles Caton. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. Minnesota was already in the headlines after a MAGA YouTuber released a highly misleading video alleging widespread film fraud in Somali run daycare centers. This one's also generated nearly $3 million in the past. And then Wednesday, an ICE agent shot an American citizen in her car. The battle for control of the narrative on this week's on the Media from wnyc. Find on the Media wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm speaking with actors Delroy Lindo and Miles Caton, who you know from the movie Sinners. Delta plays. Delroy plays Delta Slim. Miles plays Sammy, also known as Preacher Boy. You can watch Sinners on streaming right now. I want to get to this. This key scene in the car. You pass a chain gang, and Delta Slim tells you more about his past. It's a very moving monologue. When you get a monologue like that. Delroy, when you're presented a monologue like that, where do you start with it?
- [20:44]
B
In the case of that particular monologue, I had to start with committing the words to memory, which is not the way that I would like to work, but I had to because it was a three page monologue. And very, very similarly to the monologue in Five Bloods a few years ago. Thank you.
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A
You just caught me going so good.
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B
I had to commit it to. I had to commit the words to memory. And then you start to work on it in more depth as we started to rehearse the scene in context. So that's where it started. Now, obviously, as I am committing the words to memory, I'm having responses and I'm having thoughts and ideas about how to approach the work, but it really takes off. It really starts to unfold and evolve. When one is actually in the context of working with my colleagues, it's like.
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A
Learning the notes of the music.
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B
And then you start to learn how to play the music, right? Yes, that's right.
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A
You talked about a moment in this scene where Delroy improvises.
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B
Yes.
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A
Tell us a little bit more about that moment.
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C
Yeah, I mean, so after. After he tells that heartbreaking story. And another thing I also noticed is that, you know, throughout the film, you see Sammy, he's definitely in like a. Like a position where he's learning a lot. He's receiving a lot of information and interpreting it in his own way. But when it comes to Delta Slim, it's always a different look that he kind of gives an understanding. And I think that's also, like, on a musician level, you kind of just understand things differently. You connect on a different level. And I think that's also the dynamic and relationship between Sammy and Delta Slim. But that scene in particular, we get to the end of the monologue and he transitions into song. And it was maybe. Maybe a couple. Couple takes to the last take in, and he just went there. And, you know, obviously I stayed in it as an actor, but it. Just looking back at it, it really hit me in a different way. Because that right there was the epitome of the blues. It was turning that pain and that hurt and that trauma into song and into something that people can relate to and that people can feel. So realizing that and watching that back in the scene, I was just blown away that he made that choice.
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A
In doing your homework, Miles, what did you learn about the blues? What did you learn about the blues that you could use in this film?
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C
I really leaned into the storytelling. That's a really important part of the blues, aside from the live performance and actually conveying the message in person. But the storytelling back then, it wasn't. It was. It had a simplicity to it, but also such a heartfelt and heart wrenching, you know, take on what they were going through. If you hear like, you know, like, even Muddy Waters, who. I mean, Buddy Guy, who he had the pleasure of working with on this project, if you hear some of his records and you hear what he's talking about and the way he conveys it, that's. That's something that I really, you know, leaned into now that I can now take and add to my own music.
- [24:39]
A
Same for you, Delroy. When you were researching the blues and you're getting into the blues.
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B
It's not a music of victims. There's no. There's no victimization. That part, right?
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C
Yeah.
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B
Even when a cat is talking about, my woman done left me and she took up another man, it just is. There's an artistry that transforms those sentiments into storytelling, into song, into something that's beautiful. It does not take away from the sentiment of the lyric, but what it does is that it elevates the lyric to a place of artistry. And that, I believe, is what we are all connecting to and responding to in the work. And these were some very, very, very complicated human beings. I listened to Son House. I listened to quite a bit of Son House. And then you listen to his story, right? And the classic. The classic relationship between. What do you call it? The sanctified and the sinful, which you can also. And I hope I'm not getting out of my depth right now, you can see that in contemporary musicians. I'm thinking about Princess, the Sanctified and the quote, unquote. And I'm saying this in quotes. Sinful. That.
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A
Oh, that is Prince all day long.
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B
All day long. But I'm thinking of him. There are many, many, many musicians that one can categorize in those kinds of terms. But when you think about Sunhouse, when you think about Muddy Waters, thinking about Howlin Wolf, and you get the sense of how they live their lives and how artistry to articulate their lives through music. To your question, I learned in exposing myself to these artists, I was learning about who they are as human beings, learning about their lifestyles. And hopefully I was interpreting that through my own process as I was pursuing creating Delta Slim. And can I just say one thing? That is what this young man represents. The continuum, the continuing of that legacy, of that tradition. And that's what needs to be protected in the film. Ultimately, that's what I understand and realize needs to be protected at all costs.
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A
You're from a musical family. When did you first decide to take on music? Was there a decision you had to do it?
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C
I didn't. I was drawn to it. I was drawn to it. I grew up around it. And it's always been a part of my life. It's always been something that I wanted to do. I started singing when I was 3. Years old. And I remember performing and just always knowing, like, this is what I want to do with it. I didn't know where exactly I was going to end up or where it could go, but I knew that this is what I wanted to do.
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A
Can we play a little bit from Sinners?
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C
Yeah.
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A
Can we play Traveling?
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C
Let's do it.
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A
Let's do it. Traveling.
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C
I don't know where in the world I'm in. Traveling.
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A
I don't know why the world.
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C
I'm good.
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A
That's Michael B, by the way.
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C
We gonna make some money. I don't know where the way to go.
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A
What does the guitar mean to Sammy in that moment?
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C
Everything.
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A
Everything, Right.
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C
Everything. Everything. Kizo. That's like. That's like. When you, like, you get around, like, the people that you trying to impress, and it's like you got a moment to really show what you got. It's like, oh, yeah, now I gotta show off. And it was. I think that was like, just like freedom, you know, for him. You know, he finally got to get out and be around his cousins and do something different that he doesn't. He never gets to do in his daily life. And that was just the start of it.
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A
Y' all are on your press tour. We all know that.
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C
Yeah.
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A
So many people you have to talk to, so many voices that you have to hear. Delroy, what has this press tour been like because you've been on other ones? What's been unique about it?
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B
Doing a press tour with one's colleagues, you always learn little bit more about them. On this project, I've learned a lot about my colleagues in terms of the way that they've articulated how they approach their work. For instance, I would say I have learned a tremendous amount about my colleagues and from my colleagues as they have, in responding to the various questions they've been asked by the press or whomever interviewer might be. I've really learned a lot. Mike. Mike B. You mentioned Mike. Michael B. Jordan, who plays the twins Stack and Smoke in this. And learning about how he approached the work. Listening to Miles, how Miles approached the work. Wumi, who plays Annie in the film, as each of those actors, as Jamie, as each of the actors on the press tour have expressed how they've approached this work. I'm learning a lot. Jamie, who plays Perlene. Perlene. Thank you. Who plays Perlene, talks about having, as a young student, having stopped singing. She stopped because she. For various reasons, she stopped. And in this process, she was given the license. The. You used the word agency to reconnect with her musical talent and how Ryan and the process of working on this film allowed her to open up, reconnect with her music and give it expression. So to your question, I've learned so much about my colleagues and from my colleagues in the process of doing these various press tours.
- [31:31]
A
Has there been anything that you've wanted to say that you haven't gotten to say about the film?
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B
How much I revere my colleagues. I revere, and I hope this doesn't come across as being obsequious, but I love these guys, man, I do. I love the depth of respect and love that we've all shared as a company of co workers. And it doesn't happen all the. It happens rarely, frankly. But we had it on Sinners. I think that's part of what's conveyed as you watch the film. I love. I've loved this experience. I love my fellow, my, my colleagues and I've really appreciated and enjoyed learning more about them.
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A
You had a special first film.
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B
Oh, my God.
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C
Oh, man.
- [32:29]
B
Oh, my God. Big time.
- [32:32]
A
You're from New York, right?
- [32:33]
C
Yes.
- [32:34]
A
Yankees still in the Yankees, yeah.
- [32:37]
C
Yeah. I mean, I'm not big into, like baseball, but, you know, just thought, I'm checking. Yeah.
- [32:42]
A
My guests have been Delroy Lindo and Miles Caton. You should go see the movie Sinners or you should watch it streaming. It's streaming now. Thank you so much.
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B
But watch it on IMAX if you can.
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A
Because if you can.
- [32:54]
C
I believe it's coming back in January. It's this soon.
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B
It's coming back soon. It's coming back soon.
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A
Oh, go see it in a theater then.
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B
Yeah, go see it at a theater. Please, please, please. It was built for an screen. We used the brilliant cinematographer Autumn Durald, Arkapa used IMAX equipment, and that's when you'll get the full value of the sinner's experience. If you can't do that, then certainly watch it and stream it wherever you can. But it was built for an IMAX screen. Yes.
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A
Be my fourth time. I'll go see. Thank you so much for being with us.
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B
God bless you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
- [33:39]
A
Coming up, we'll continue our conversation about sinners with actor and musician Saul Williams. He plays Jedediah and he's also nominated for his first Grammy after 25 years as a recording artist. That's next after a quick break. Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting. Your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship wnyc. Org.