Demystifying 'Couples Therapy' With Dr. Orna Guralnik

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Demystifying 'Couples Therapy' With Dr. Orna Goralnik"

All Of It is a cultural exploration podcast by WNYC, hosted by Alison Stewart. In the episode titled "Demystifying 'Couples Therapy' With Dr. Orna Goralnik," released on May 27, 2025, Stewart delves deep into the intricacies of couples therapy alongside clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst Dr. Orna Goralnik. This episode provides listeners with valuable insights into the dynamics of relationships, the challenges couples face, and the therapeutic approaches that can help navigate these complexities.

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Introduction to the Episode

Alison Stewart opens the episode by introducing the documentary series Couples Therapy, which offers an intimate glimpse into the therapeutic sessions led by Dr. Orna Goralnik. The series showcases couples grappling with a range of issues, including shame, gender trauma, deafness, queerness, identity, and differing perspectives on the concept of home. Stewart emphasizes that the show not only highlights the struggles of these couples but also serves as a mirror for listeners to reflect on their own relationships.

Notable Quote:

“ALL OF IT is a show about culture and the what and why of their work.” – Alison Stewart [00:30]

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The Concept of "Blocking the Exits"

One of the fundamental concepts discussed is the idea of "blocking the exits," a therapeutic technique used to prevent couples from avoiding difficult conversations and confronting underlying issues.

Key Points:

• Definition: Blocking the exits involves creating a controlled environment where couples cannot leave the session prematurely, ensuring they address their issues head-on.
• Purpose: This method encourages couples to engage deeply with their problems rather than escaping them through various "exits" like work distractions, affairs, or general avoidance.

Notable Quote:

“It makes it hard for couples to deal with their issues when they keep exiting.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [01:51]

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Understanding Transference in Couples Therapy

Dr. Goralnik explains the role of transference in therapy, particularly how individuals project feelings from other relationships onto their partners or therapists.

Key Points:

• Transference Defined: The unconscious redirection of feelings from one person to another, often from past relationships to present ones.
• Application in Therapy: Recognizing transference helps therapists understand the hidden motivations and unresolved issues that couples bring into the therapy room.

Notable Quote:

“Most of what people talk about is their relationships.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [04:49]

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The Balance Between In-Therapy Work and Homework

The discussion moves to the distinction between what happens during therapy sessions and the work couples are tasked with outside of them.

Key Points:

• In-Room Work: Couples engage in guided discussions within a safe space, allowing for immediate feedback and gentle exploration of issues.
• Homework Assignments: Tasks assigned to couples to practice new communication strategies and behaviors in their daily lives, facilitating the internalization of therapeutic gains.

Notable Quote:

“The work of integration and therapy is helpful.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [10:23]

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Choosing Couples Therapy Over Individual Therapy

Alison Stewart inquires about the benefits of couples therapy compared to individual therapy, and Dr. Goralnik shares her perspective on balancing both approaches.

Key Points:

• Dual Approach: Dr. Goralnik practices both individual and couples therapy, recognizing that personal growth can enhance relationship dynamics.
• When to Choose Couples Therapy: Ideal when partners face issues they cannot resolve independently and realize they need external support to navigate their differences.

Notable Quote:

“Therapy is appropriate when a couple is facing issues and getting stuck.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [22:22]

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Case Study: Katherine and Nick

The episode delves into the specific challenges faced by Katherine and Nick, who bring deep-seated trauma from their childhoods into their marriage.

Key Points:

• Background: Katherine struggles with trauma related to being overweight, while Nick has faced ridicule concerning his questioning of his sexual identity.
• Protective Instincts: Both partners attempt to shield each other from discomfort, resulting in a cycle of avoidance that hinders their relationship's growth.
• Therapeutic Intervention: Dr. Goralnik and her team work to help Katherine and Nick address their individual shame and foster a more curious and open form of care for each other.

Notable Quote:

“They were gentle with each other, very caring, but it also blocked their development.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [07:19]

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Unpacking Surface Issues to Address Deeper Concerns

A common scenario in couples therapy is when disagreements over surface-level issues, such as finances, mask more profound underlying problems.

Key Points:

• Beyond the Surface: Therapists aim to uncover the hidden emotions and motivations that drive seemingly trivial arguments.
• Example: When Nick expresses frustration about finances, it may be a manifestation of deeper insecurities or unaddressed grievances within the relationship.

Notable Quote:

“Often it's about something else. There are often other issues hiding underneath those more explicit content areas.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [09:19]

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Integrating Alternative Therapeutic Approaches

The episode explores how alternative methods, like ayahuasca journeys, interplay with traditional therapy techniques.

Key Points:

• Benefits: Such experiences can bypass certain defenses, revealing material that couples might not access through conventional therapy alone.
• Challenges: Without proper integration, the insights gained from these experiences may not translate into lasting change.
• Therapeutic Support: Dr. Goralnik emphasizes the importance of integrating these experiences with ongoing therapy to ensure meaningful progress.

Notable Quote:

“They don't necessarily know how to use it later and incorporate it in a more consistent way in their lives.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [10:18]

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Listener Questions and Expert Responses

Throughout the episode, listeners contribute questions that Dr. Goralnik addresses, providing practical advice based on therapeutic principles.

1. Encouraging a Reluctant Partner to Attend Therapy

   • Question: How can one encourage a partner who is averse to therapy?
   • Advice: Approach the conversation with compassion and express mutual suffering, emphasizing the joint effort to improve the relationship.
   • Notable Quote:

     “I would start with compassion and care.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [18:06]

2. Balancing Objectivity and Selfishness in Relationship Evaluations

   • Question: How can one objectively evaluate a partner’s meeting of their needs without seeming selfish?
   • Advice: Focus on subjective honesty and open communication, listening to one's own feelings and those of the partner without defensive barriers.
   • Notable Quote:

     “We want to be very subjective... listen honestly to yourself and your partner.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [12:03]

3. Understanding Awareness in Communication Styles

   • Question: How common is it for clients to be unaware of their negative communication habits, such as yelling or interrupting?
   • Advice: Many individuals have blind spots regarding their interaction patterns. Awareness and willingness to change are crucial for breaking negative dynamics.
   • Notable Quote:

     “We all have plenty of blind spots about how we influence our partners without awareness.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [13:41]

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Case Study: Rod and Allison

Another case discussed involves Rod and Allison, a couple experiencing growth and conflict due to differing communication styles.

Key Points:

• Dynamics: Rod is quiet and mild-mannered, while Allison is brash and artistic. Their contrasting styles initially lead to frequent interruptions and raised voices.
• Therapeutic Progress: Through therapy, they learn to appreciate their differences and develop more effective communication strategies, addressing deeper issues like grief and personal change.

Notable Quote:

“They listen to each other really carefully and learn from each other.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [20:55]

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The Myth of "Finding the One"

Dr. Goralnik shares her perspective on the romantic notion of finding a single "one" person destined for you.

Key Points:

• State of Mind: Believing in "the one" fosters openness, trust, and love, but it's more about a mindset than fate.
• Reality: Relationships require continuous effort, understanding, and adaptation rather than reliance on a predestined perfect match.

Notable Quote:

“The feeling of having found the one is a state of mind where you're willing to assign trust and love to someone else.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [15:06]

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Practical Advice for Navigating Relationship Challenges

Towards the end of the episode, Dr. Goralnik offers actionable advice for listeners to prevent minor issues from escalating into significant problems.

Key Points:

• Contending with Differences: Embrace and understand differences in needs, values, and worldviews. Strive to see the world through your partner’s perspective.
• Communication: Honest and open dialogue is essential for addressing and resolving conflicts.
• Continuous Growth: Relationships evolve, and ongoing effort is necessary to maintain harmony and mutual respect.

Notable Quote:

“Learn to see the world through the eyes of another person.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [23:56]

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Conclusion

Alison Stewart wraps up the episode by highlighting the relevance of Couples Therapy on Paramount Plus and thanks Dr. Goralnik for her invaluable insights. She hints at future episodes, ensuring listeners remain engaged with the ongoing exploration of culture and relationships.

Notable Quote:

“Paramount Plus is where you'll see the series Couples Therapy.” – Alison Stewart [23:56]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of All Of It provides a comprehensive look into the world of couples therapy, offering listeners both theoretical knowledge and practical strategies to enhance their relationships. Dr. Orna Goralnik's expertise illuminates the complexities of human connections, emphasizing the importance of compassion, communication, and continuous personal growth in fostering healthy partnerships.

Transcript

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All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it from wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In the docu series Couples Therapy, viewers are offered a rare view inside the office of Dr. Orna Goralnick, where she helps her patients overcome some of the dynamics that make for relationships that feel stale or sour, maybe even hopeless. She helps her patients reconnect with the care and love and partnership that good relationships are supposed to foster. And the show can help us as the viewers recognize some of those factors in our own lives. The series is back with four new couples who present with issues like shame and gender, trauma, deafness, queerness and identity, and what it means for two partners who have different views on the idea of home. Joining me now to talk about it is clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst Dr. Orna Goralnik. Nice to speak with you again.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Hi, Alison. Good to see you. Good to speak with you.

[Alison Stewart]

You use the phrase block the exits. Open up and work it out.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

So what changes about a couple's dynamic when you literally block the exits?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Well, I think generally people tend to.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Use a lot of defensive maneuvers to avoid things that are hard to bear or things that cause them discomfort or shame.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And it makes it hard for couples to deal with their issues when they keep exiting, exiting.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And that could be towards anything.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It could be towards work or it.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Could be an affair or it can be just avoiding the relationship, that those are all these exits that couples tend to use to avoid discomfort in the show.

[Alison Stewart]

It's so interesting because we hear you.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Talking with your own therapist, with a group of other therapists about whether a patient trusts you or how they respond to you. What can you learn about how couples relate to each other with the way they respond to you?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Interesting question.

[Unnamed Therapist]

You know, the way generally, I'm a psychoanalyst, so one of the tools that we use to understand what's going on in our patient's psyche is what we call the transference, meaning how they relate.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

To the therapist, which is really an indication of what's going on in them.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And what they project onto the person around them in individual therapy.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You do a lot of work in the transference.

[Unnamed Therapist]

In couples therapy, it's much more here and there. I can, I use that.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

But mostly I focus on their relationship. But sometimes it's a good indication of what's going on with them in terms.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Of how they relate to me. Did that make sense?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's also interesting in this season because, or at least I recognized it more in this season is you send people to go out into the world with their homework that they have to do. What's the difference between the work that happens in the room and the work that happens outside in their lives, their homework?

[Unnamed Therapist]

Well, over the course of a.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

If a treatment is good, ultimately there's not going to be a big difference. Ultimately, what therapy is about is about.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Internalizing whatever people learn in the context of a safe space, the session, eventually you want them to take it home and just it become kind of a.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Natural way of relating.

[Unnamed Therapist]

But early on, what I ask people to do is to save the trouble.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Between them to the session where we.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Can unpack it and work on it gently, carefully, without damaging the relationship, and.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Then at home to do things that.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Are more kind of safe for the relationship, changes that will not necessarily induce.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

A crisis between them.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Why did you choose couples therapy versus individual therapy for the show, just in general, or do you do individual therapy as well?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Oh, I do both. I'm a psychoanalyst, so I see plenty of individuals multiple times a week for long periods of time.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I don't only work with couples.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I'd say I probably see half, half couples and individuals.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

What do you like about couples therapy?

[Unnamed Therapist]

Oh, many things I like about it. First of all, even in their individual.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Work, most of what people talk about.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Is their relationships, Whether it's their romantic.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Relationships or with their parents or with.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Their employers, relationships is the stuff of life. What's really interesting about couples work is that you get to actually see people.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

In action, not only the way they think about it or talk about it.

[Unnamed Therapist]

But you get to see their blind spots and you get to work on it in real time with them while.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

They'Re in the room with you. It can be very exciting work.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

My guest is Dr. Orna Goralnick. She is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. We're talking about the new series of Couple Therapy. It's now streaming on Paramount. Plus, listeners, if you'd like to join this conversation, we want to hear how you overcame a persistent challenge in your relationship. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 W. I see. Or if you have a general issue, you need to know the right words to start a conversation with your partner. Perhaps we can help. Dr. Grolness obviously can't help you with your deep personal issues, but there's a more general question that you have. You could give us a call. Our number is 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Let's talk about the couples on the show, Katherine and Nick. They both have deep seated trauma from their childhood. Hers from being overweight, his from being ridiculed because he was questioning his sexual identity. And you observe in the beginning that.

[Alison Stewart]

You can feel they're both trying to protect each other even in the session a little bit. How does it happen that one partner's instincts about what it means to express care, to protect can actually wind up being counterproductive?

[Unnamed Therapist]

It goes back to what we started.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

This interview with in terms of like.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Exits and people, you know, people generally try to avoid discomfort and they avoid their own discomfort and they feel their.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Empathically they feel their partner's discomfort.

[Unnamed Therapist]

So when things get a little tricky or shaky, they kind of shut it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Down often rather than go there and they do it with each other.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Nick and Catherine were both, they came.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Into their marriage both with a lot.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Of hesitation, shame based kind of protectiveness.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And they, they were gentle with each other.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I mean, in certain ways, adorably gentle.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

With each other, very caring.

[Unnamed Therapist]

But it also blocked their development as.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Individuals and as a couple. And that's how they started their work.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And I helped them in the work, I helped them both address their own.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Shame operations, kind of loosening up those.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Operations and allowing themselves to get more curious about each other and express their care for each other in a different.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Way by way of wanting to learn.

[Unnamed Therapist]

About each other rather than protecting each other.

[Alison Stewart]

There's this funny moment.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Oh, funny.

[Alison Stewart]

It's a moment when Nick says he gets really sort of a little upset with her about finances. In the relationship, when something like that happens, there is the issue of finances, but there's something else going on as well.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

How, how do you unpack it so.

[Alison Stewart]

That people can realize the finances are one thing, but here's something else to consider.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Yeah, well, that, you know, as, as a psychoanalyst, our whole training is all about kind of reading what's underneath. Like the, the stuff that is not necessarily conscious or more motivated by hidden motivations. And you know, you have to go.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You have to respect people's defenses and.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Go nudge them a little bit beyond what they're comfortable with, yet not overwhelm them.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

So open up a little space there.

[Unnamed Therapist]

To ask what might be there in Addition to the thing that you're fighting about, could there be something else there that you're not quite conscious of that we want to think about? And, you know, people often argue about things like finance or division of labor.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Or even when people argue about sexuality.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I mean, often it's about something else. There are often other issues that are.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Hiding underneath those more explicit content areas.

[Alison Stewart]

Nick and Katherine come to you after.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Attempting to work on this experience through ayahuasca. Having an experience like that, how does that enter your approach? Know that a couple has tried something aside from. From therapy before getting to you.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I'm promiscuous that way. I mean, anything that helps, I'm like, bring it on. Anything that will help you. And many people now are. You probably know, many people now are, like, trying out, like, psychedelic medicine who.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Bypass certain defenses and bypass their own limitations. And sometimes it's great. It really does open up a door for people to material that they didn't have access to. The problem with just leaning on psychedelics.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I mean, there are all sorts of.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Potential problems with it. But one of the problems is that they don't always then know how to use the material that comes up for.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Them while they're doing whatever ayahuasca journey.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Or whatever journey they went through. They don't necessarily know how to use it later and incorporate it in a.

[Unnamed Therapist]

More consistent way in their lives.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And that's why kind of the work of integration and therapy is helpful. But with Katherine and Nick, it was super helpful to start with them right.

[Unnamed Therapist]

After they did that journey because they.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Were very open and they had access to material that was hidden from them before.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

We've got a question here that says. It's a text. It says, how can I encourage my partner to attend therapy with me? He's very averse to it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah, it's not an unusual question for couples. You can just ask your partner to.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Give it a try and give them.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Like, full control over whether you continue with it or not.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I mean, you can't.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It doesn't hurt to try something, and.

[Unnamed Therapist]

If it doesn't work for them, it's not a good idea.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Let's talk to Lori, who is calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Lori. Thank you so much for calling all of it. You're on the air.

[Unnamed Caller]

Hi. Thank you for taking my call. My question is, how do you know if you're being objective when you're evaluating your partner's meeting of your needs without and without and getting out of the way of being selfish in terms of that evaluation? If that Makes sense.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

So she's asking how can you be objective in the relationship without appearing to be selfish?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I'm not sure being objective is exactly what we do in relationships. I think in a way we want.

[Unnamed Therapist]

To be very subjective.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And I don't mean subjective in terms of being distorted, but I think when we listen to ourselves and when we listen to our partner really listen, there's a lot of information that is available. Again, it goes back to the idea of like employing defenses versus trying to really get to the truth of the matter. When you're honest with yourself, you check in with your very subjective gut feelings and you open, honest conversation with your partner on how they're feeling. Plenty of information is available to you to know if this is a relationship that is good for the two of you.

[Alison Stewart]

We are talking about the Paramount plus series, Couples Therapy. It just dropped a whole batch of new episodes. My guest is Dr. Orna Goralnick. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of It. You're listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Dr. Orna Goralnik is our guest. She's a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. You can watch her on the Paramount plus series couple. I want to ask about Rod and Allison. There's a lot of growth that goes on with Rod and Allison. He's quiet, kind of mild manner. She's sort of brash and artistic. And it's really interesting because she doesn't understand the way that she talks to him is basically she's kind of yelling when she talks to him at first and she's kind of interrupting all the time. How often do you find that you have clients who aren't aware of themselves like that?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Lot.

[Alison Stewart]

A lot.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

We all have blind spots about how.

[Unnamed Therapist]

We interact and ways in which we.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Influence our partners without awareness of it. That's why we get stuck in all sorts of dynamics.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Alison and Rod were a wonderful example of that in the sense that it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Was both so obvious. Right. What was going on.

[Unnamed Therapist]

They were, in a way in the.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Beginning clueless about it. But they were also very open hearted.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And willing to go through the process.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And learn really fast.

[Unnamed Therapist]

So they're a great example of how both the way they talk to each other gets them stuck in a certain dynamic.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

And also you can see, I mean, speaking to what we were talking about earlier, you can see how the surface of what they're talking about is concealing much deeper issues, issues like grief and change that they were each going through.

[Unnamed Therapist]

That their bickering Was kind of getting in the way of their really being able to address.

[Alison Stewart]

We have an interesting question. This text says, what is your opinion. What is your opinion on the idea of the one, you finding the one person in your life?

[Unnamed Therapist]

I think the feeling of having found.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

The one is a wonderful feeling. I think it's a feeling that one can generate when one opens one's heart to someone outside of them.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I don't think it's really an expression of that one special person necessarily being out there.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I think it's a state of mind.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Where you're willing to assign that kind of trust and love to someone else.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Let's take a call. This is Tara, who's calling online, too, from East Brunswick. Hi. Thank you so much for making the time to call today.

[Tara]

Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Sure.

[Tara]

So my question is. And, you know, I'm not sure how. Anyway, my question is, I have a husband, and we've been married for quite some time. My husband, I guess I'm seeking to find out how to speak to him. He has panic attacks that don't allow for him to drive very far at all. And it's so overwhelming. And when we do talk about it often, you know, it's just so. It brings up a lot of emotions in me because I feel like, you know, we're not. I don't know, I just feel overwhelmed. So. But how do I talk to him, but be gentle on him, but just let him know that, you know, we need to do something, you know, about this because it affects every aspect of our relationship.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Thank you so much for calling. What advice would you give Tara talking to her husband, who can't drive because he has these panic attacks?

[Unnamed Therapist]

Oh, Tara, first of all, I hear the compassion and the gentleness with which.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

You'Re trying to address this, which your husband is lucky for that. I hear that. I mean, panic attacks are both really hard for the person going through it.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And for the people around them. But panic attacks are also something that are quite easy to address if the.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Person is in good therapy.

[Unnamed Therapist]

So the person is, in a way.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Your husband is, in a way, wasting very precious time not getting help.

[Unnamed Therapist]

So the question is how to bring.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Him to the door of a good therapist. I would say to him, look, you're suffering.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I care.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I'm suffering with you. Why don't we just try. Give it a try.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Some combination of a good therapist, a good.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Either cognitive behavioral therapist, or, if there are other issues involved, a more psychoanalytically oriented therapist. And then there are medications that help.

[Unnamed Therapist]

With panic, really help is really easy to find when you're dealing with panic attacks.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It's a very well known issue.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Is it right for Tara? Not is it right. Is it helpful for Tara to tell her partner how all the driving is weighing on her?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I mean, that's a little bit, that's more of kind of a guilt tripping. I, I would start with more just compassion and care, which I heard in her voice.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And if that doesn't work, then you can use like, you know, heavier technologies in terms of influence.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

But I would start with compassion.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

This says I can credit my individual therapy with saving my marriage. A lot can be done in a relationship if you're open and honest with yourself. Thank you for sending that text. Let's talk about Kyle and Mondo when they show up in your office. Kyle, who is deaf, has given Mondo sort of a little bit of an ultimatum that he wants to have an open relationship when they first show, show up. What do you hear when you hear the words open relationship?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

As a therapist, I don't, I, I don't yet know what I'm hearing. I mean, open relationships mean a lot to different people.

[Unnamed Therapist]

They, they can serve different functions.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

People use it in different ways. I mean, some people want open relationships.

[Unnamed Therapist]

When almost like it's like a sexual orientation, they, they're non monogamous somehow by nature. And some people try to employ an open relationship to address an issue that is that they don't know how to.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Resolve between the couple as a way.

[Unnamed Therapist]

To bring in some kind of other.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Either other person or other dimension of the relationship. And some people use open relationships hoping that that will solve something, that it's not really about that and it's just.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Kind of a step on the way out.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

So it really, I have to listen.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Very carefully what people are looking for.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

When they're talking about open relationships. And then how do they compare?

[Unnamed Therapist]

I mean, people want different things and.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Need different levels of safety versus excitement, safety versus openness in their relationship.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And some of it is a matter.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Of negotiation, developing trust, learning a new language.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Yeah, it's sort of interesting. There's this moment for Kyle and Mondo where there's an opportunity for Kyle who has to be worried about Mondo, not vice versa. Where is the value of those times when the shoe is on the other foot in a couple's ability to, to understand each other?

[Unnamed Therapist]

Well, that's, I mean, developing the capacity to really see the world through your partner's eyes is the challenge of a.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Relationship and the gift of a relationship.

[Unnamed Therapist]

I mean, Kyle and Monda were just.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Wonderful in being able to do that.

[Unnamed Therapist]

With each other and being open to really.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I mean, if you watch them on.

[Unnamed Therapist]

The show, you'll see that they.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

They listen to each other really carefully.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Funny to say listen because Kyle is deaf, but listen. Yeah, really carefully to each other and.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Learn from each other and appreciate. They really appreciate the difference between them.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And extend a lot of sympathy and empathy to each other, and they grow a lot as a couple.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's take Taylor in Manhattan. Hi, Taylor, you're on the air.

[Progressive Insurance]

Hi.

[Taylor]

Thank you for taking my call. Huge fan of Dr. Orna. I just was curious if you recommend couples therapy for all couples, no matter how long the relationship has last or if it's something that, you know, if it's not broke, don't fix it. That's sort of what I have the feeling.

[Unnamed Therapist]

What do you think?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yeah, people often ask me that question. I'm not.

[Unnamed Therapist]

You know, I'm not a. Therapy is for everyone, always type person.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

I think therapy is a very particular.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Endeavor to take on. It's expensive. It takes time. It takes a lot of resources and.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Effort, and I think you should use it judiciously.

[Unnamed Therapist]

It's not for everyone.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It's certainly not all the time. I think therapy is appropriate. When a couple is facing issues, they try to work on it themselves, and they realize that they're getting stuck, that they're not able to resolve it themselves.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Then it's a good idea to bring in a therapist.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

But otherwise, we all have plenty of resources available to us that do not require therapy.

[Alison Stewart]

What advice would you give to folks who are in relationships to help them navigate some of the things that you've seen snowball into bigger issues?

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

That was a little general.

[Unnamed Therapist]

Can we.

[Alison Stewart]

Are there certain things that people who are in relationships should be aware of, should acknowledge before it gets out of hand? Does that make more sense?

[Unnamed Therapist]

It's.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

It's so general.

[Unnamed Therapist]

It's. That question is sort of kind of life itself. Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Yes. Life unfolds. And there are a lot of issues.

[Unnamed Therapist]

That we face as we live with our partners. You know, the biggest issue that people face when they're in a committed relationship.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Is that their partner is different from them.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And it could be a difference in.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Terms of what they need, what they want.

[Unnamed Therapist]

It could be a difference in values. It could be just a difference in.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

How they see the world.

[Unnamed Therapist]

And I think my. I guess my biggest advice and basically writing a book about it is like.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

How do you really contend with difference? How do you learn to see the world through the eyes of another person.

[Alison Stewart]

Paramount plus is where you'll see the series Couples Therapy. They have just dropped a new season. My guest is Dr. Orna Goralnik. Thank you so much for your time today.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

We really appreciate it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnik]

Thank you, Alison. And good luck to wnyc.

[Alison Stewart]

Coming up on the show tomorrow, New York Times critic Kyle Buchanan has just returned from Cannes and he joins us to talk about this year's slate of.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Films, from the big directors to the big prizes.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.

[Ira Flatow]

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine, news you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship Wnyc. Org.