Podcast Summary: "Demystifying 'Couples Therapy' With Dr. Orna Goralnik"

All Of It is a cultural exploration podcast by WNYC, hosted by Alison Stewart. In the episode titled "Demystifying 'Couples Therapy' With Dr. Orna Goralnik," released on May 27, 2025, Stewart delves deep into the intricacies of couples therapy alongside clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst Dr. Orna Goralnik. This episode provides listeners with valuable insights into the dynamics of relationships, the challenges couples face, and the therapeutic approaches that can help navigate these complexities.

Introduction to the Episode

Alison Stewart opens the episode by introducing the documentary series Couples Therapy, which offers an intimate glimpse into the therapeutic sessions led by Dr. Orna Goralnik. The series showcases couples grappling with a range of issues, including shame, gender trauma, deafness, queerness, identity, and differing perspectives on the concept of home. Stewart emphasizes that the show not only highlights the struggles of these couples but also serves as a mirror for listeners to reflect on their own relationships.

Notable Quote:

“ALL OF IT is a show about culture and the what and why of their work.” – Alison Stewart [00:30]

The Concept of "Blocking the Exits"

One of the fundamental concepts discussed is the idea of "blocking the exits," a therapeutic technique used to prevent couples from avoiding difficult conversations and confronting underlying issues.

Key Points:

• Definition: Blocking the exits involves creating a controlled environment where couples cannot leave the session prematurely, ensuring they address their issues head-on.
• Purpose: This method encourages couples to engage deeply with their problems rather than escaping them through various "exits" like work distractions, affairs, or general avoidance.

Notable Quote:

“It makes it hard for couples to deal with their issues when they keep exiting.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [01:51]

Understanding Transference in Couples Therapy

Dr. Goralnik explains the role of transference in therapy, particularly how individuals project feelings from other relationships onto their partners or therapists.

Key Points:

• Transference Defined: The unconscious redirection of feelings from one person to another, often from past relationships to present ones.
• Application in Therapy: Recognizing transference helps therapists understand the hidden motivations and unresolved issues that couples bring into the therapy room.

Notable Quote:

“Most of what people talk about is their relationships.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [04:49]

The Balance Between In-Therapy Work and Homework

The discussion moves to the distinction between what happens during therapy sessions and the work couples are tasked with outside of them.

Key Points:

• In-Room Work: Couples engage in guided discussions within a safe space, allowing for immediate feedback and gentle exploration of issues.
• Homework Assignments: Tasks assigned to couples to practice new communication strategies and behaviors in their daily lives, facilitating the internalization of therapeutic gains.

Notable Quote:

“The work of integration and therapy is helpful.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [10:23]

Choosing Couples Therapy Over Individual Therapy

Alison Stewart inquires about the benefits of couples therapy compared to individual therapy, and Dr. Goralnik shares her perspective on balancing both approaches.

Key Points:

• Dual Approach: Dr. Goralnik practices both individual and couples therapy, recognizing that personal growth can enhance relationship dynamics.
• When to Choose Couples Therapy: Ideal when partners face issues they cannot resolve independently and realize they need external support to navigate their differences.

Notable Quote:

“Therapy is appropriate when a couple is facing issues and getting stuck.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [22:22]

Case Study: Katherine and Nick

The episode delves into the specific challenges faced by Katherine and Nick, who bring deep-seated trauma from their childhoods into their marriage.

Key Points:

• Background: Katherine struggles with trauma related to being overweight, while Nick has faced ridicule concerning his questioning of his sexual identity.
• Protective Instincts: Both partners attempt to shield each other from discomfort, resulting in a cycle of avoidance that hinders their relationship's growth.
• Therapeutic Intervention: Dr. Goralnik and her team work to help Katherine and Nick address their individual shame and foster a more curious and open form of care for each other.

Notable Quote:

“They were gentle with each other, very caring, but it also blocked their development.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [07:19]

Unpacking Surface Issues to Address Deeper Concerns

A common scenario in couples therapy is when disagreements over surface-level issues, such as finances, mask more profound underlying problems.

Key Points:

• Beyond the Surface: Therapists aim to uncover the hidden emotions and motivations that drive seemingly trivial arguments.
• Example: When Nick expresses frustration about finances, it may be a manifestation of deeper insecurities or unaddressed grievances within the relationship.

Notable Quote:

“Often it's about something else. There are often other issues hiding underneath those more explicit content areas.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [09:19]

Integrating Alternative Therapeutic Approaches

The episode explores how alternative methods, like ayahuasca journeys, interplay with traditional therapy techniques.

Key Points:

• Benefits: Such experiences can bypass certain defenses, revealing material that couples might not access through conventional therapy alone.
• Challenges: Without proper integration, the insights gained from these experiences may not translate into lasting change.
• Therapeutic Support: Dr. Goralnik emphasizes the importance of integrating these experiences with ongoing therapy to ensure meaningful progress.

Notable Quote:

“They don't necessarily know how to use it later and incorporate it in a more consistent way in their lives.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [10:18]

Listener Questions and Expert Responses

Throughout the episode, listeners contribute questions that Dr. Goralnik addresses, providing practical advice based on therapeutic principles.

1. Encouraging a Reluctant Partner to Attend Therapy

   • Question: How can one encourage a partner who is averse to therapy?
   • Advice: Approach the conversation with compassion and express mutual suffering, emphasizing the joint effort to improve the relationship.
   • Notable Quote:

     “I would start with compassion and care.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [18:06]

2. Balancing Objectivity and Selfishness in Relationship Evaluations

   • Question: How can one objectively evaluate a partner’s meeting of their needs without seeming selfish?
   • Advice: Focus on subjective honesty and open communication, listening to one's own feelings and those of the partner without defensive barriers.
   • Notable Quote:

     “We want to be very subjective... listen honestly to yourself and your partner.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [12:03]

3. Understanding Awareness in Communication Styles

   • Question: How common is it for clients to be unaware of their negative communication habits, such as yelling or interrupting?
   • Advice: Many individuals have blind spots regarding their interaction patterns. Awareness and willingness to change are crucial for breaking negative dynamics.
   • Notable Quote:

     “We all have plenty of blind spots about how we influence our partners without awareness.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [13:41]

Case Study: Rod and Allison

Another case discussed involves Rod and Allison, a couple experiencing growth and conflict due to differing communication styles.

Key Points:

• Dynamics: Rod is quiet and mild-mannered, while Allison is brash and artistic. Their contrasting styles initially lead to frequent interruptions and raised voices.
• Therapeutic Progress: Through therapy, they learn to appreciate their differences and develop more effective communication strategies, addressing deeper issues like grief and personal change.

Notable Quote:

“They listen to each other really carefully and learn from each other.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [20:55]

The Myth of "Finding the One"

Dr. Goralnik shares her perspective on the romantic notion of finding a single "one" person destined for you.

Key Points:

• State of Mind: Believing in "the one" fosters openness, trust, and love, but it's more about a mindset than fate.
• Reality: Relationships require continuous effort, understanding, and adaptation rather than reliance on a predestined perfect match.

Notable Quote:

“The feeling of having found the one is a state of mind where you're willing to assign trust and love to someone else.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [15:06]

Practical Advice for Navigating Relationship Challenges

Towards the end of the episode, Dr. Goralnik offers actionable advice for listeners to prevent minor issues from escalating into significant problems.

Key Points:

• Contending with Differences: Embrace and understand differences in needs, values, and worldviews. Strive to see the world through your partner’s perspective.
• Communication: Honest and open dialogue is essential for addressing and resolving conflicts.
• Continuous Growth: Relationships evolve, and ongoing effort is necessary to maintain harmony and mutual respect.

Notable Quote:

“Learn to see the world through the eyes of another person.” – Dr. Orna Goralnik [23:56]

Conclusion

Alison Stewart wraps up the episode by highlighting the relevance of Couples Therapy on Paramount Plus and thanks Dr. Goralnik for her invaluable insights. She hints at future episodes, ensuring listeners remain engaged with the ongoing exploration of culture and relationships.

Notable Quote:

“Paramount Plus is where you'll see the series Couples Therapy.” – Alison Stewart [23:56]

Final Thoughts

This episode of All Of It provides a comprehensive look into the world of couples therapy, offering listeners both theoretical knowledge and practical strategies to enhance their relationships. Dr. Orna Goralnik's expertise illuminates the complexities of human connections, emphasizing the importance of compassion, communication, and continuous personal growth in fostering healthy partnerships.