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- [00:10]
A
You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Costume designer Paul Tazewell took home an Oscar and a Tony this year. In one case, he helped turn a musical into a movie. And in another case, he helped turn a movie into a musical. Paul won an Oscar for his work on the film Wicked and also took home as Tony for his beautiful and sometimes hilarious costumes for the new Broadway musical Death Becomes Her. We spoke to Paul earlier this year about Wicked as part of a special series we do called the Big Picture. And to tell us more about it, is the producer behind that series, Jordan Loff. Hey, Jordan.
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B
Hello.
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A
So tell us a bit more about this series in case people aren't familiar with it.
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B
Yeah. So this is a series of interviews we've done for a couple years now. Each time, as we approach Oscar season, we talked with below the line nominees. And that's just a term for people who are not actors on the call sheet and are not directors. So people who are cinematographers, our editors, our sound mixers, all people that we've spoken to. A lot of these craftspeople are easier to book than the big stars during Oscar season because not as many people are banging down their door wanting to talk to them, but they should because they're often some of the most interesting interviews we do each Oscar season.
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A
Amazing interviews.
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B
I love hearing about all of the details and research and thought that goes behind making some of the year's best movies.
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A
So how did we land on inviting Paul Tazewell?
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B
Yeah, so first he caught my eye because he had already won a Tony actually for his costumes on Hamilton. And that sparked my. Because I thought, oh, it makes perfect sense that a Tony winning costume designer would be a good person to transition Wicked, obviously this loved Broadway musical into its big screen debut. And also the clothes for Wicked are just so fun after I saw it. Like the uniforms for the school are fun. Glinda's beautiful pink dresses are amazing. Even the hat, the sort of witchy hat that Elphaba gets to wear, you could tell, was so thoughtfully designed. So I was really excited to get to invite him on the show.
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A
Every detail is accounted for with Paul Tazewell.
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B
It absolutely is.
- [02:09]
A
And then he won an Oscar. Paul Tazewell became the first black man to win an Oscar for best costume design. It was very exciting. And by the way, Paul will be designing the costumes for Wicked for Good, which is out later this year. Here's my conversation with Oscar winning costume designer Paul Tazewell about his work on Wicked. When did you first know you wanted to be a costume designer.
- [02:36]
C
Oh my God. It kind of trickled in. But I would say the germ of it started when I was maybe nine years old when I learned to sew. And then when I was in high school, that was probably my first full production that I designed a production of the Wiz. It was a high school production that my high school was doing. So that was the opportunity for me to see that I could actually do it and that I love to do it. It just took me a bit of time to find it once I went to undergrad and realized that I wanted to be a costume designer over being a performer, which was my original goal. So here I am.
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A
Who taught you to sew?
- [03:22]
C
My mom. Yeah, I would say is my art angel. She was the one that pointed me in the direction of, of creating in many different ways. One, you know, to start with drawing and painting and then making things, making puppets, that was earlier in my life. And then starting to make shirts for myself. I was, I came up when the dashiki was a very popular silhouette. So I made many dashikis, a lot.
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A
Of T squared, maps, I guess, patterns.
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C
But then, you know, it just continued. And then I learned how to drape dresses and period dresses and tailor frock suits and, you know, all that through college, you know, so as I matured, so did my skills. And then once I graduated from graduate school, I entered into the world of costume design professionally. And I started working at the Arena Stage in Washington D.C. and continued on to many of the regional theaters around the country. And then my work was seen by George Wolf and he invited me to design George C. Wolfe. And he invited me to design Bringing to Noise, Bringing Defunk. And that was my first Broadway show. And then I was working freelance as a designer. There was a period when I was, for three years I was professor at Carnegie Mellon teaching costume design. And that was 2003 to 2006. And. And then I then entered back into freelancing as well. I actually never gave up freelancing. It just so happened I was, I was doing two full time jobs, you know, at the same time. And you know, I decided I would go back to just designing costumes. So the, you know, the rest is, is somewhat history. And also, you know, what's ahead as well.
- [05:33]
A
When you were a student studying, what's something that you remember from that time that has stayed with you to this day?
- [05:44]
C
Wow. I think that somewhere in there I realized the power of listening, listening closely because I spend a lot of time doing that first with directors that I'm collaborating with so that I can better understand what their point of view is and how they see telling a story. And then it is listening to actors when I'm in a fitting, you know, which ends up being a very intimate period, or, you know, that process, because they're trying to figure out where they are with a character and how they're going to become a character. And I play a role in creating that character as well, with the designs that I. That I come up with. So it's, you know, it is really. It's, you know, it's listening to the words that are coming out of their mouth and then also listening to the silence and really understanding what, you know, what's going on in their face, their facial expression, and then coming up with questions to ask so that I can get more information. And I would say definitely that's both for the director and for the actor. And it's just to get a better understanding of how can I be of support in the process for them, which then directs me or redirects me in a different direction for what the costume might be. But that was definitely developed when I was in college. And as with everyone, you make lots of mistakes, and then you've got great successes, and you figure that out, and you figure out who you are within the. Of the process of designing costumes. And, you know, I honed my skills as a, you know, as I was saying earlier, to understand all of the underpinnings that it takes to do any specific period, you know, so, like, you know, I could figure it out, you know, backwards and forwards. And so I really understood what silhouette, what period silhouette is specific to each year. And then being, you know, once I had that under my belt, then being able to understand and make critical judgment on, you know, what will best underscore what, you know, what a personality is, you know, what choices would a character make that will then resonate for an audience, you know, and if you're working in different periods, you know, you still have to find that right color or that right shape that will speak something specifically about the character. So, you know, with everything that, you know, the. The collective of all the productions that I've done both, you know, in. In straight theater and in musicals and. And then in the films that I've done, you know, it's all additive. It's all, you know, it. You know, for every production, I understand more and more what will resonate, how it resonates, and it's, you know, it is. It's a personal process for me because, you know, I have to feel it. And when I feel it, I rely on the fact or the hope that, you know, at least a significant percentage of the audience will feel the same way as I do and see things in the same way. But that visceral, you know, process is, you know, it is specific to me, you know, and that's what is telling. That's what I bring to the event.
- [09:26]
A
You're listening to my conversation with costume designer Paul Tazewell. He won an Oscar for his work designing costumes for the Wicked movie. We'll have more with Paul after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is costume designer Paul Tazewell. Paul won two major awards this year. He took home a Tony for his work on the new Broadway musical Death Becomes Her. And earlier this year, he took home the Oscar for best costume design for his work on the Wicked movie. He made history as the first black man to win an Oscar in that category. Let's dive back into my conversation with Paul Tazewell, which happened before his big Oscar win. You want a Tony for Hamilton, but you've also worked on film adaptations of musicals like west side Story and now Wicked. What's the difference between designing for the stage versus designing for the screen?
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C
You know, first off, when you're designing for the stage, you're creating a picture or in multiple pictures or multiple paintings, if you will, but it is, for the most part, seen from one vantage point. You know, you're with Broadway stage. You know, it's a proscenium theater. It's a proscenium house. So you're creating a, you know, a picture for every scene or every moment within that production. And then how that, you know, how I orchestrate shape and color and different characters. It is inclusive of everyone that's on stage. With film, you zone in on one character, one moment, very close, you know, and it doesn't necessarily relate to everything that is surrounding it. But because I've come from the world of theater, I'm also thinking about what is the environment that this character is going to be in? How are they going to be seen? What is the wall that's going to be behind them or the series of buildings or in any of their surroundings? And then how is that space peopled with background characters as well? But knowing that, then most of the scene is going to be filmed very closely and closely on the principal characters. So that is one element, the Other element, you definitely see it with west side Story and you see it in a magical way with Wicked, is that I'm creating a full world. I'm responsible for the look of everyone that's walking up and down the streets of Harlem when we, when we're in a scene, you know, the number of America, let's say. And you know, so we've got the principal characters that will be dancing in the number and then we have the surrounding community. But it all needs to feel seamless. I mean, it all needs to work together. And you know, with, with west side Story, I mean, you know, speaking of America, I mean, I, I was orchestrating that color wise so that it gave a certain kind of energy and then we could find Anita and Bernardo within that as well. So, you know, it's being, you know, it's very intentional how I'm setting up what the background is gonna look like, you know, as we see them on the streets of New York, and then how the principal characters stand out from that. For Wicked, you know, it's similar, you know, very, very similar. You know, if you, you know, you think about all of the characters that are part of Emerald City when, when Elphaba and Glinda enter into this magical space of Emerald City, you know, everyone has an element of green, but there's, you know, variation of that so that we keep the picture interesting, you know, so it doesn't become this kind of green murky space, but they come sparkling with, you know, with different qualities of green. And then, you know, holding them in a more, you know, a more specific silhouette. So they cut, you know, their figure cuts out from the activity that is surrounding them, you know, and that gives that energy, you know, that very, you know, excited energy that is, you know, one short day. What, you know, everything that that number is about. So, you know, you have to think about what is the 360 view of what this space community environment going to be. What does it require? And I don't necessarily need to think about that as meta away. When I'm working on theater pieces, it's much more kind of condensed and refined. We might have a cast of 24 or 32 at the most, at the very most. But you're not talking about 400 people all in space at the same time.
- [14:57]
A
I'm interested in your point of reference for Oz because obviously your palette could be almost anything. It could you come from any inspiration. This is a made up place. You get to decide. It's kind of awesome when you think about it, where did you go from inspiration?
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C
You know, it is a privilege to get the opportunity to, you know, to design Oz, you know, to want to work just with the, you know, the themes of the wizard of Oz, you know, as we know it and how we've embraced it as Americans, as, you know, and then globally as well. And, you know, I just had to start. Start in. I mean, I've created worlds with the Wiz, let's say, you know, I've done. I've designed four productions of the Wiz and each of them is different. And then, you know, with Wicked, I knew that there was a huge fan base that loves the Broadway show. And so when they're entering into our film, you know, to experience our film, they need to be able to hold on to something that feels familiar. You know, the characters need to feel familiar. But I also, as a designer, my intention is to. And also for, you know, definitely for John M. Chu and the director, he wanted to create a new experience for the audience because there would be those people who had seen the Broadway musical and there would also be people who had never experienced the Broadway musical and they were going to see this story in a brand new way. And so, you know, it became imperative for me to figure out what, what parts or elements or energy of the wizard of oz film from 1939 and, and the Wicked novel by Gregory Maguire. And then also the way production, what of those things can I capture energetically, you know, the spirit of. And then as I'm designing, create a new vision for what this world might be. And that was, you know, that's inclusive of what Nathan Crowley, our production designer, was bringing to the design for the environment for the, for the set. Also how Alice Brooks was seeing the lighting and how she was going to shoot, you know, all of the different scenes. You know, for me it was, you know, what can, you know, how can I best interpret the character of Elphaba, the character of Glinda, the character of the wizard of Oz, of Madame Morrible, and feel in sync with what the culture of Oz is, but not, you know, like, I'm also acknowledging who's playing those roles and, you know, to have someone like Ariana Grande playing Belinda, that's, you know, it colors what that, you know, what that character is going to be. You know, how she wears clothing and what, you know, what her overall aura is, is, you know, it's specific to Ariana Grande and then most definitely with Cynthia Erivo as well as, you know, to, you know, newly see Elphaba as a literal Person of color being played by a person of color and she is then green in our fantasy world. It resonates in a much stronger way, I feel. And, you know, I might be partial because I'm also a designer of color. So, you know, I get the emotional path that she's walking, you know, and that was, you know, a huge kind of entry for me into her design and how I wanted to represent her. And then having worked with Cynthia Erivo before in Harriet, I also had a sense of, you know, how she wears clothes, her, you know, great ability and how, you know, she, you know, she's an athlete, basically. And, you know, and also just how she will move through space and how I could also underscore what the messages, you know, for, you know, how we want to see, you know, our idea of what is wicked and the assumptions around people that are different. You know, all of those questions, you know, feed into my interpretation of what she's wearing.
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A
I'm so interested in the glasses that Elphabet wears. She wears these really interesting swooping black glasses. Can you tell us a little bit about them?
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C
Sure. I mean, what is stylistically consistent within our whole world? And this was early on, imagery that I was very much drawn to was the idea of the spiral. And really, it started by just being drawn to that shape as a whimsical shape. And then as I investigated it, I was seeing the information around the golden spiral and how the golden spiral is a formula for creation, for nature, and how you see it in. It's represented in all of nature. And that led me then down the road of the organic and mushrooms. I've talked about just how mushrooms and bark and the textures that you find in the forest were influential as well. But this idea of the spiral is throughout. And you see it represented in the clothing and some of the detail of design, some that is just decorative. And then also as we were looking at frame designs of frames, because we decided early on that she would wear glasses early, earlier in her time at Shiz, and then lose them as the time progressed. But that pair of glasses was one that was reflective of the spiral. And that asymmetry was. It was reflective of what we were representing throughout the film. Definitely. That wasn't the only design that we created. We created probably five different designs and prototyped about five different glasses. And we arrived at this one that seemed to be. It was large enough. It was the right. It incorporated the spiral. And then it also allowed for us to see her eyes very clearly. And we wanted to make sure that we could engage with her expression and make sure that we weren't cutting anything off. So that was all part of the process, our research and development as we were creating these glasses.
- [22:07]
A
I have to ask about Elphaba's hat. It is one of the most important articles of clothing in the film. So let's think about Elphaba. She's green, she's wearing micro braids. Walk us through the main decisions that you had to make when it came to designing Elphaba's hat.
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C
Well, I knew that it was going to be, like you said, it's going to be. It was going to be an iconic piece, you know, because it, you know, it. The witch's hat is one that, you know, is, you know, recognizable throughout our, you know, our, you know, kind of popular culture. And you see it on everybody when, you know, at Halloween. And, you know, and so it became the shape of that which is wicked, that which is undesirable, that, you know, that, you know. So I wanted to make sure that, you know, our shape was appropriate and, you know, and really captured all of that energy as well. And when Jon M. Chu would describe how he was imagining the film would start, he always said, well, we'll do a close up on the hat, and then we'll kind of zoom in. And then as we pull back, we'll see that what looked like originally a mountain or some pointed structure. See that it indeed is the witch's hat. And then it's surrounded by water. And then, you know, so, you know, there was a payoff for this. And then, you know, so it's now in this, you know, very, you know, kind of primary spot within the film and setting up the energy of what this film is going to be about. And, you know, so that led me to incorporating texture into the hat, which was also reflective of Elphaba and all the texture that is within her clothes, which is reflective of the underside of mushrooms and it's reflective of bark, and, you know, it has all of these organic elements still mostly black. I mean, we do have an under. Under color, you know, kind of a. An iridescence of color that runs throughout her. Her. Her clothing, you know, wardrobe. But, you know, it is essentially this black hat that needs to resonate in a very interesting way. Another part of it or another part of that hat story is that it was originally created by Galinda's grandmother. And so Galinda is traveling to shiz with this hat as a keepsake, but she doesn't like it, and it's gifted to Elphaba as a joke by her and her two friends. And when we first are introduced to it, well, aside from the, you know, the very beginning of the film when we're introduced to the hat from Galinda, it has been collapsed and so it's stored like a collapsible top hat, actually. And then it opens up and, you know, you see the points of it and, you know, it's kind of a delightful moment.
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A
Moment, yeah.
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C
But then when it's offered up to Elphaba and Elphaba puts it on it, then it represents all, you know, her power. It's a power source for her, you know, where, you know, on one side it's, you know, being given as a joke for Elphaba. She makes it, you know, she, it's the definition of who she is. And it, it becomes an integral part of her, her silhouette. And that silhouette is, it's reflecting or referencing the 1939 Wicked Witch of the west silhouette. And it's that kind of turn of the century, 1900s silhouette that we then are left with. When she dons the cape, you know, the velvet cape, and she has on the hat and she has on the dress with the, you know, the prominent sleeves. And then, you know, she spins around and she is, you know, you know, catching that broom in her hand. She is wicked. You know, she is Elphaba. She's not necessarily the Wicked Witch of the west, but she is reflective of that character. Yeah.
- [26:47]
A
That was my conversation with designer Paul Tazwell about his Oscar winning designs for the film adaptation of Wiki. You can see his costumes for Wicked for Good when the movie premieres this fall. And before we end the hour, my producer Jordan Lauf is back to play us out on some music from Lord Huron.
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B
Yes. So I wanted to spotlight this song one because it's been on repeat ever since they came to the studio. The song is called Bag of Bones. It's from their brand new album, the Cosmic Selector, Volume 1. And I just love the song. They did it live. I loved it more when I heard it and I've been listening to it like crazy. Also, they brought so many musicians and so many instruments to this booking. I've never seen so many instruments. And when I told the producers and tech people like, hey, you know, they could strip it down a bit, they said, oh, this is stripped down. So shout out to Lord Huron for really putting their all into a public radio live performance. And you can tell it sounds really great.
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This is Lord Huron with a special performance of their song Bag of Bones. From their brand new album, The Cosmic Selector, Volume 1.
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This is how my tale begins. I was outside looking in again Looking like rain washing so I was lifting the cold and left unseen. Never seen the sky that pale at night should have known it wasn't bright water out there on my Just right over my head before I can see you're doing just fine without me. What did you say when you left me? You never beautiful without. How wrong I was. Dust yes, my tale of W continues. It was me they got, but it should have been you. You were the only one I trusted. You left town and I got busted. Let me see you one last time. You can kiss my worthless ass goodbye. Doubt that. It's been nice to know. I'm going out you best can go I can see there's something not right about me I thought the darkness would heaven, heaven, you never get far without me Life is a joke if you have this is how my story ends I'm stone been broken drunk again Nothing lasts and no one stays I'm just floating on through my Been a long road but I'll be all right living on the countryside I'll be out there on my own just a ride on B I'll be out there on my home just to rattle like a bone I'll be out there on my home just to rat people die and planets turn in Empire cries and fall and burn Nothing lasts and no one stays we just spiral off into outer space Never see the sky so full of stars Makes me wonder where you are I'll be out there all my home yes, you're right on the bag of bones I'll be out there on my own just to ride on bike bones I'll be out there on my home just to ride on by the.
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E
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F
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