Did Early 2000s Pop Culture Undermine Feminism?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Did Early 2000s Pop Culture Undermine Feminism?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
• Episode Title: Did Early 2000s Pop Culture Undermine Feminism?
• Release Date: April 28, 2025
• Description: ALL OF IT is a show about culture and its consumers, aiming to engage thinkers, doers, makers, and creators in discussions about the cultural landscape.

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the intricate relationship between early 2000s pop culture and the feminist movement. Featuring Sophie Gilbert, an Atlantic staff writer and author of the new book Girl on Girl: How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves, the discussion explores how the cultural dynamics of the early 2000s influenced women's perceptions of themselves and each other.

Sophie Gilbert’s Insights on Pop Culture and Feminism

The Impact of Early 2000s Pop Culture Sophie Gilbert argues that early 21st-century pop culture presented a version of womanhood that was "infantilized, sexualized and heavily policed" (02:16). This era, marked by the rise of post-feminism, shifted feminism from a collective pursuit to an individual one, emphasizing personal freedom over collective advancement.

Definition and Consequences of Post-Feminism Post-feminism emerged as an ideology suggesting that feminism had achieved its goals, allowing women to live freely and celebrate individualism. Gilbert explains, "Post feminism... was sort of this celebratory, like girl power. Woohoo. But without sort of demanding anything or wanting change" (02:51). This shift led to a diminished focus on ongoing gender equality issues, impacting women's ambitions and self-perception.

The Role of the Internet and Pornography The advent of the Internet in the early 2000s unleashed new platforms that often objectified women. Gilbert points out that many internet giants like Facebook and Google Images originated from the desire to assess women's attractiveness. She states, "There was an explosive rise in plastic surgery during the 2000s... reality TV was putting predominantly women on display," highlighting how pornography became a dominant cultural force affecting various aspects of media and society (06:07).

Influence on Fashion and Media Pornography's influence extended to fashion, exemplified by the early 2000s trend of revealing clothing and the controversial work of photographer Terry Richardson. Gilbert remarks, "Terry World... it really sort of embodies the, what we call porno chic... how hip porn was and how much people saw it as like a force for sex positivity" (08:13). This era emphasized thinness and objectification, as seen in shows like America’s Next Top Model, where models were frequently subjected to harsh body critiques (13:34).

Critique of Media Representation

Misogyny in Early 2000s Films Gilbert criticizes numerous films from the early 2000s, including Shallow Hal, Knocked Up, and White Chicks, for their misogynistic portrayals of women. She notes, "There was very much this lack of curiosity about women's stories and this idea... they sort of just don't want to make movies about women" (10:59). This lack of diverse female narratives reinforced negative stereotypes and hindered the progress of meaningful feminist discourse.

Impact of Reality Television Reality TV shows like The Real Housewives perpetuated a narrative of women competing against each other, fostering an environment of "girl on girl violence" (19:18). Callers shared their experiences, highlighting how these shows normalized and even encouraged conflict among women, damaging real-life friendships and self-esteem.

Listener Interactions and Personal Stories

Call from Rupa (Asbury Park) Rupa discussed her MFA research on the male gaze and the convergence of Vogue and Playboy covers, illustrating the pervasive objectification of women in media. She also mentioned Lady Gaga's controversial statements on feminism, which Gilbert linked to the broader issue of feminism’s image problem (16:34).

Call from Sarah (Brooklyn) Sarah expressed frustration with reality shows that focus on women arguing, noting the portrayal of women as constantly in conflict. Gilbert likened this dynamic to Jane Austen novels, where conflict drives the narrative, reinforcing harmful stereotypes about female relationships (19:51).

Call from Jocelyn (Brooklyn) Jocelyn shared her disdain for the film Knocked Up, criticizing its sexist undertones and the backlash faced by actress Katherine Heigl for labeling the movie as sexist. Gilbert highlighted the difficulty of protesting misogyny during that era, as even mild criticisms were met with extreme backlash (22:01).

Call from Taylor Taylor, a young model, discussed internalized misogyny resulting from her experiences in the fashion industry. Gilbert empathized, sharing her own struggles and emphasizing the importance of self-love and rejecting harmful societal messages (25:12).

Economic Factors and the Girl Boss Movement

Gilbert connected the 2008 economic downturn to the rise of the "girl boss" movement, where women were encouraged to hustle harder amidst economic instability. She noted, "It made us a little bit more susceptible to what it was, preaching these values, the idea that... you just need to work the hardest" (24:00). This shift reinforced individualistic approaches to feminism, often ignoring systemic issues.

Hope and the Future of Feminism

Positive Changes in Modern Media Despite the challenges, Gilbert finds hope in recent developments within the film industry. She cites the increased representation of older women in complex roles at the Golden Globes and the proliferation of stories addressing real women's experiences, such as aging and motherhood (27:18). Gilbert believes that diverse storytelling and female filmmakers can redefine cultural narratives and support feminist progress.

Conclusion

Sophie Gilbert's Girl on Girl provides a critical examination of how early 2000s pop culture contributed to undermining feminism by promoting objectification, individualism, and misogyny. Through insightful analysis and listener interactions, the episode underscores the importance of collective feminist efforts and the transformative power of diverse storytelling in shaping a more equitable cultural landscape.

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<a name="timestamp02:16"></a> 02:16 Sophie Gilbert: "We should say it is out tomorrow."

<a name="timestamp02:51"></a> 02:51 Alison Stewart: "You say the early 2000s was marked by the rise of post feminism. What does that mean?"

<a name="timestamp06:07"></a> 06:07 Sophie Gilbert: "But I think the biggest shift was really the real explosion of porn and how popular it became as this really dominant cultural pastime."

<a name="timestamp08:13"></a> 08:13 Sophie Gilbert: "The photographer Terry Richardson released a coffee table book in 2005 called Terry World... it really sort of embodies the, what we call porno chic."

<a name="timestamp10:59"></a> 10:59 Sophie Gilbert: "I think there was very much this lack of curiosity about women's stories and this idea... they sort of just don't want to make movies about women."

<a name="timestamp13:34"></a> 13:34 Sophie Gilbert: "It was really the obsession with Thinness in the 2000s."

<a name="timestamp16:34"></a> 16:34 Rupa: "I was thinking about that John Berger quote... growing similarity between the covers of Playboy and Vogue."

<a name="timestamp19:18"></a> 19:18 Sophie Gilbert: "It is kind of dispiriting, especially to imagine the impact that it has on real life friendships."

<a name="timestamp22:01"></a> 22:01 Jocelyn: "I remember watching it in the theater and being so disgusted with it... It really, really makes me angry."

<a name="timestamp24:00"></a> 24:00 Sophie Gilbert: "It made us a little bit more susceptible to what it was, preaching these values, the idea that... you just need to work the hardest."

<a name="timestamp27:18"></a> 27:18 Sophie Gilbert: "I think that they help define our imagination and our sense of worth in so many ways."

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Note: Timestamps correspond to significant quotes and moments within the podcast episode, providing context and attribution.

Transcript

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[WNYC Studios]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Coming up later this week, Ara Snook, yeah, it's Snook Rhymes with Luke and Duke. Sarah Snook will be here. You may know her as Shiv in the HBO series Succession. Now she's starring as all 26 roles in the new Broadway production of the Picture of Dorian Gray. And if you've ever had a hard time bringing up a difficult subject with a friend, we'll get some advice from a psychologist. Dr. Marissa Franco joins us to talk about how to navigate honest conversations with your pals. Plus, she'll take your calls. That's in the future. Let's get this hour started with a conversation about how pop culture has impacted feminism. Sophie Gilbert's new book is titled Girl on How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves. In it, the Atlantic writer argues that 21st century pop culture, pop culture presented a version of womanhood that was infantilized, sexualized and heavily policed. She writes, there was a moment at the beginning of the 21st century when feminism felt squashed by a cultural explosion of jokey extremity and Technicolor objectification. This was the environment that millennial women were raised in. In it, it informed how we felt about ourselves, how we saw each other and what we understood women as a collective to be capable of. It colored our ambitions, our sense of self, our our bodies, our work and our art. I came to believe that we couldn't move forward without fully reckoning with how the culture of the aughts had defined us. The book is out now, and Sophie Gilbert joins me in studio. It's nice to have you here.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Thank you so much. It's so nice to be here, listeners.

[Alison Stewart]

We'd love for you to weigh in. What did the early 2000s teach you about feminism or what it meant to be a woman? What's an example of early 2000s pop culture that left you feeling that you felt was problematic? Yeah. Did you have any sort of pop culture that made you feel a certain way during this period? Also, how did you fight back? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC I want to say one more. I think the book is out tomorrow.

[Sophie Gilbert]

We should say it is out tomorrow.

[Alison Stewart]

It is out tomorrow. Well, people get in line tonight.

[WNYC Studios]

That's all I know.

[Listener]

It's fine.

[Alison Stewart]

You say the early 2000s was marked by the rise of post feminism. What does that mean?

[Sophie Gilbert]

It's. Yeah, post feminism is a little bit hard to define because there wasn't really anyone kind of waving a flag for it. It was just this sort of ideology that emerged, really, in media. And it was the idea, I think, that feminism had achieved everything it ever would or needed to, that women were free now to live however they wanted. That feminism, as it had iterated, was sort of boring and restrictive. And now women could be free. They could dress however they wanted. They could, you know, go out and be sex liberated. It was sort of embodied, I think, by things like Sex and the City. It was very much this kind of celebratory vibe that celebrated, among many things, spending money. And so it was so caught up in the. In the culture of the moment, but it was. It was sort of very individualistic. And I think with post feminism came a lack of focus on what women still needed to achieve.

[Alison Stewart]

The first wave of feminism came in the early 1900s, getting the right to vote. Second wave was 63 to 80, about having the same rights as men under the law. And the third wave started about 92, around Anita Hill. It was inclusive. Kimberly Crenshaw came up with intersectionality. You had the Riot Girls. It was all good. You write. And this is really interesting that in the early 2000s, feminism moved from the collective pursuit to an individual one. What happened when feminism became about the individual?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, it was so interesting. It really. It happened almost earlier than that, in the. In the middle of the 90s. And I'm so sorry to say, because I love them so much. But one of the bands that really embodied the shift was the Spice Girls, because before that, obviously, the Riot Girl movement was very political, and they were agitating for change and for, you know, freedom for women from sexual harassment, sexual assault. It was this very, like, not angry, but it was a sort of very activist movement. And they had this slogan, Girl Power, which was all about trying to put two terms that people wouldn't associate together and to see what they could do with them. And it. And then the Spice Girls came along, and they were. I mean, they were so. I remember them so well when I was a teenager, just loving how colorful it was and how fun and how poppy the music was and how everything was spectacle and it was just really exuberant. And they reappropriated the slogan girl Power. But the way that they used it, it sort of didn't really stand for anything. It was again like this celebratory, like girl power. Woohoo. But. But without sort of demanding anything or wanting change. And what happened with the Spice Girls is they were so good at selling things. I think they had something like $500 million worth of brand deals in their first two years as a band. And the minute that people saw how good they were at selling things, they. They sort of globbed onto more pop artists who. And certainly younger pop artists, younger women who they felt would be equally good at branding as branding tools.

[Alison Stewart]

The big difference between the 21st century and previous was the Internet. Yeah, it's hugely. What did the Internet unleash or let loose that perhaps was on the decline or at least in hiding.

[Sophie Gilbert]

What was so interesting to me in the research for this book was how many of our, like, very crucial Internet platforms now came out of the desire to see women, like to look at women online and assess women's hotness. So you had, I think faith kind of works. That's exactly what Facebook was. It was, I think originally the prototype for Facebook was like a hot or not website. Google Images came about because Jennifer Lopez wore that iconic dress, the Versace dress, to the Grammys, like cut very low in the jungle print. She looked incredible. But people were sort of. There was such a high demand online to see pictures of her wearing that dress that Google, I think, created Google Images as a result, and YouTube. One of the precipitating factors was for YouTube was actually nipplegate. When Janet Jackson, one of the developers, wanted to see pictures of Janet Jackson and what happened to her during the super bowl performance. And he realized there was no way to sort of easily access videos online. So you have all these major components of the Internet that were kind of built out of this sort of quite puerile impulse. But I think the biggest shift was really the real explosion of porn and how popular it became as this really dominant cultural pastime. And how I sort of hadn't quite, I think, assessed before I started working on the book how much it impacted directly the culture of the 2000s and how much suddenly porn was this, like, very influential creative force on virtually everything on fashion and music and TV and movies, but also even on things like books.

[Alison Stewart]

Give me an example of how porn could be seen in fashion.

[Sophie Gilbert]

So it's really the fat. I think if you remember the fashion of the 2000s, you remember so much like how like barely there it was. Like it was just sort of acres and acres and acres of skin. But also I think there's an example in the book. The photographer Terry Richardson released a coffee table book in 2005 called Terry World which is, I mean it's, it's available in Internet Archive if anyone wants to look at. I would say brace yourselves.

[Alison Stewart]

Not safe for work.

[Sophie Gilbert]

It is safe for work. I'm trying to think how I can say this in public radio terms, but there's a lot of pictures of his penis in, in there and things he has done with his penis. There's a lot of, and there's some.

[Listener]

Quite.

[Sophie Gilbert]

It'S quite disturbing photos to me now. The sort of models being dragged around by their hair. There's models who look to me as though they might be in pain. It's, it's disconcerting now to. And this was a book that at was celebrated in a gallery show and like lots of celebrities went and it was, I mean it really sort of embodies the, what we call porno chic. How, how trendy it was in that particular moment and how hip porn was and how much people saw it as like a force for sex positivity and all these like really important things.

[Alison Stewart]

So how did porn shape the way women were portrayed in other forms of culture, TV movies?

[Sophie Gilbert]

So one example I always give, I think in the book, I start by going back to the year 1999 when I was 16 years old, very much like curious about, curious about womanhood, curious about the 21st century and what it might mean. And there were three things that happened that year that really seemed to embody what it meant to be a woman or what it meant to be a girl, I should say. There was Britney Spears on the COVID of Rolling Stone in a pink and black polka dotted bra clutching a Teletubby doll. Quite a transgressive image in lots of ways. There was American Beauty, the movie which I saw in theaters, I remember and absolutely loved. But as an adult now I realize it's a movie about a middle aged man's sexual fixation on his teenage daughter's best friend, which no one seems sort of troubled by in the moment. I think it won five Oscars, including Best Picture. But watching it now, now I have my own children, I'm like. And then at the end of the year the Abercrombie and Fitch holiday catalog came out which I think was targeting 13 to 18 year olds. And it had all these like very sexually, fairly sort of sexually explicit images. And also an interview with Jenna Jameson, the porn star, in which she was harangued by the interviewer repeatedly to give him sexual favors. So again, this was a catalogue for a fashion company very much aimed at teenagers. So that was very like. I think it gives you some sense of just how. What kind of an influence porn was having on pop culture in that moment before it really sort of metastasized into the 2000s and the particular cruelty of that era.

[Listener]

You write in your book, Sophie, that movies in the aughts hated women. And you give a long list of films. Shallow Hal, which is written by the Farrelly brothers, Knocked up, written by and directed by Judd Apatow. White Chicks by the Wayans. Do you blame the makers of these.

[Alison Stewart]

Movies, the writers and directors, or do you blame the studios who gave them the green light?

[Sophie Gilbert]

I think I don't. It's really hard unless you're sort of steeped in the. In the culture of the era, as I was during much of the research, to convey like how much all the culture of the era was sort of down on women in general, how much sort of hating women, making fun of them, being like, ugh, girls was like generally, generally sort of accepted form of. I mean, it was just the vibe. I mean, this was the vibe of like Girls Gone Wild and so many sort of iconic cultural products of the time. But I do think there was a really good New Yorker profile by Tad Friend, I think from around 2011, of the actress Anna Faris. And I think he quoted producer in that story saying, we just don't want to make movies about women. And if we don't want to, we won't. Like, if we don't have to, we won't. So there was very much this lack of curiosity about women's stories and this idea. I think people hadn't really figured until the movie Bridesmaids came out that women might actually be a valuable movie going demographic on their own. Right.

[Listener]

My guest is Atlantic staff writer Sophie Gilbert. We're discussing her new book, Girl on Girl, How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What did the early 2000s teach you about feminism? What's an example of early 2000 pop culture that made you feel particularly problematic towards women? What aspects of the aughts culture made you feel a certain way? And what did you do to fight back? Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We're going to talk about thinness in the 2000s figure. Let's listen to one example of an episode of America's Next Top Model from. She's gasping. This is from 2005, where they're discussing the body of one of the models. She has been. For the record, she is very thin. We should say that out loud. And in this photo shoot, they have dressed her up as an elephant. Let's listen.

[WNYC Studios]

But I hate to say it, they had to do a lot of body work on you and retouching at home. Pretty much. I try to, you know, eat right. And we come here. My towels. Everything is thrown off.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Stop.

[Listener]

If you're sporting a gut, then you turn to the side and disguise it.

[WNYC Studios]

You knew. Be honest with yourself and don't point the finger because nobody will retouch a picture as much as we did this picture.

[Alison Stewart]

Yes. Wow. What do you see? Was the main driving force behind the obsession with Thinness in the 2000s.

[Sophie Gilbert]

It's really. It's really hard to know where it came from. But I do think one thing that happened with the rise of the Internet was suddenly people were just visible and suddenly able to be visible in a way that they hadn't been before. And also at the same time, you had the rise of reality television, which was putting mostly predominantly women on display. And it was kind of. It was creating this idea which I think comes across in a lot of the beauty culture and the diet culture of the era, that anyone can be visible now because they have the same tools. And. And anyone, therefore, can turn their body into kind of their. Their career, like their. Their source of income. And so if you can do that, why wouldn't you? And so there was this really explosive rise in plastic surgery during the 2000s and in different kinds of cosmetic procedures. And you had a lot of shows on reality tv, sort of. There were lots of makeover shows like the Swan and Extreme Makeover, but there were also. And the Biggest Loser, obviously, is another one. But it's. It's really funny listening to clips like that. And then, you know, some of the episodes of the Biggest Loser that I watched from back then, because it's just such cruelty. It's such cruelty. And it. Would you sort of gasp seeing it now? Because I think we've come so far since then, which is cheering in lots of ways. Like, we really understand how damaging those kinds of comments and that kind of critiquing can be.

[Alison Stewart]

Given the world that you lived in. For writing this book, I'm curious. And if you don't have an Opinion. It's fine. What do you think ozempic and glp1s how this will affect the issue of fatphobia?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, I had to get into this very briefly in the book because obviously it was looking back at an era when these drugs were not available. But I think what is a little bit discouraging is that actually looking at the history, we had come a long way with the body positivity movement. So in 2016, I think you had Ashley Graham on the COVID of Sports Illustrated. You had the plus size range of. Not the plus size, but like the. The range of Barbies with different kinds of body shapes that was released, which was kind of a really significant moment in, I want to say, in toy making. But it was significant for those of us who grew up with Barbies. And so it felt like we were making such progress. And they have. There have been studies done that show that when girls are exposed to body positive content, it does change the way that they feel about themselves. They report feeling more positive and more happy with themselves after they see body positive content online. And I. Drugs like Ozempic, they seem to have incredible health purposes. Like, they seem to be really, really, really useful and to be revolutionizing healthcare in some ways. I think what does worry me is the cultural impact, as always, just to sort of now that very thin and very slender bodies are possibly easier to achieve than they once were.

[Listener]

Let's talk to Rupa, who's calling from Asbury Park. Hi, thank you for making the time to call all of it today.

[Rupa]

Of course. Can you hear me?

[Listener]

Okay, I hear you. Great, great.

[Rupa]

So I wanted to say two things. I was actually working on my MFA about the male gaze and the late aughts.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh, wow.

[Rupa]

So I was thinking about that John Berger quote. All the time that men look at women, women see themselves being looked at. And one of the most shocking things that I saw in my research was just over the years, like the growing similarity between the covers of Playboy and Vogue. So, like the same amount of skin being shown at the same poses and just how odd that was. And another thing was, again, this is a bit later in the ops, but there was a very prominent Lady Gaga interview at the time where she was asked if she considered herself a feminist. And she basically said no and continued to say, you know, I'm not a feminist. You know, I love men, I hail men. And it just seemed like such a misstep by somebody who was, you know, so iconic at the time and considered to be a feminist.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, I think feminism really hasn't has an image problem because there have been so many instances of celebrities saying this over the years where. And they literally say, exactly, I'm not a feminist. I love men. I mean, I love men, too. I'm married to one. I have a son. I mean, I think sort of whenever anyone says that, I try to kind of say, do you believe that women should have equal rights under the law? Do you believe that women should have equal opportunities? You do. Okay, cool. That's all that feminism is really. I mean, there are many different applications of it and interpretations and you can take it any way, but. But basically it at its premise, it's that. But it, for some reason, and I think a lot of it does come back to this post feminist kind of rejection of boring old. Boring old, stuffy old feminism. And it's scoldy old rules about how women should behave. Like it kind of has a branding problem, I suppose we could say. But that was really. That's really interesting to hear about Vogue and Playboy. I did not know that. And it makes total sense. And I was remembering actually earlier this morning, that moment, I think in 2005, when you could not walk down the street without seeing the Playboy bun on people's T shirts and tops. And it was just such a kind of fetishized brand.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking about the new book, Girl on Girl. How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves. We'll have more with Sophie Gilbert after a quick break. This is all of It. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Atlantic staff writer Sophie Gilbert. We're discussing her new book, Girl on Girl. How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves. Let's go to the phone. Sarah is calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Sarah.

[Sarah]

Hi. I just wanted to touch base on the reality shows you guys mentioned earlier. They started to come out like 20 years ago, specifically those Housewives shows. And it always bothered me that it really just portrays women arguing with each other is really the main topic of the show. And then I will say, you know, the second point, I'll make it fast as I've been assert for many years. And I do feel I see more of a prevalence and talking about someone when they've left the table just to go to the bathroom when it's a group of girls. And that there's not like kind of less shame involved and just seems, I don't know, I feel like those shows had a big effect.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, that's so. That's so interesting. I remember a while Ago writing for the Atlantic, a piece on reality shows and how they seem to really model themselves after Jane Austen novels. Because you have a lot of women who are sort of kind of idle, like they don't really have enough to do, and so what do they do? This is not being very generous to the characters in Jane Austen, but I actually went back and reread Pride Prejudice recently, and there's a lot of, like, Ms. Bingley is quite, quite catty about Elizabeth Bennet. There's a lot of, like, trying to make Elizabeth look bad to Mr. Darcy. And it's this. It's the same dynamic, I think, that you see on so many shows where conflict is really, like, the engine that drives the show that makes people watch. And I don't know, I know that it's sort of fun and girl on girl, violence, for want of a better term, has always. Has always been, like, at the heart of the reality model. And I think it's always. Producers of always seem to sense that it will get ratings, but it is. It is kind of dispiriting, especially to imagine the impact that it has on real life friendships.

[Listener]

Let's talk to Jocelyn from Brooklyn.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi, Jocelyn. Thanks for making the time to call all of it today.

[Jocelyn]

Hi. I'm so excited to be on. I love this topic that I was so excited about. And it was crazy that one of the first things she mentioned was Knocked up, which is a movie that I have such a special hatred for. I remember watching it in the theater and being so disgusted with it and this. I mean, it wasn't 20 years ago. It still makes me so angry because it was just. It just the whole concept of it was so horrible. Like, the fact that Katherine Hagel would ever even look at the disgusting death row. And he was so gross. And he was like this successful person, right? And he was just like, loser who I think he was. It was basically porn that he did for, like, a basic, if you could call it a living. It was just so the whole concept. And then the fact that she would just keep that baby. Are you kidding? Like, it was just infuriated me so much. And it still. Still makes me really, really angry. And I love that you guys are talking about this because it's. Apparently it was everything. Every, you know, TV show, movie, everything, music. So much was around us at that time. And I. Yeah, this is. I'm excited about this book.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh, thank you. It was such a theme in movies at the time. The idea that these, like, beautiful, high achieving, like, very successful women should kind of Lower their standards, essentially to end up with men who are often kind of jerky, not very nice to them. I think I recently rewatched 27 Dresses, which is. I mean, poor Katherine Heigl. She was in lots of these movies. But the interesting thing about Knocked up, one of my central questions when I wanted to write the book was, why was it so hard to push back against the misogyny and the sexism of this era? Like, and I remember this feeling of being like, I can't complain. If I complain about how I'm being treated, I will be, you know, a scold. No one will. People will think I'm boring. And Catherine Heigl, I think, gave an interview to vanity fair in 2007 where she called Knocked Up a little bit sexist, which is not, like, a strong criticism in any way or form. But the pushback to her saying that was really extreme. I think the director Judd Apatow came out against her, and Seth Rogen spoke out against her, and there was this real, real backlash to the fact that she had made even this very benign comment about what is, in fact, quite a sexist movie in lots of ways. So it sort of speaks to how hard it was, I think, for all of us who are in this moment to try and protest, even when we knew, even when we sensed, which was often hard to. We were being mistreated.

[Listener]

This is an interesting comment. They made feminism a bad word the exact same way they did with woke.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh. What do you think about that? I think that's exactly right. They did. It's really easy to create a kind of ghost version of something, like a really all the most negative possible interpretations of something and to demonize it and then to just weaponize the word over and over again until people are sick of it. Sometimes I feel like I've used misogyny in my own writing so much I can't use it anymore because it just feels like it has no meaning. Whereas something like woman hate feels like it still has a bit of power left.

[Listener]

I was curious how you felt how.

[Alison Stewart]

The downturn, the economic downturn in 2008, did it have a role in this in any way?

[Sophie Gilbert]

I think it had a role more in what came after. Because I remember I was living in New York in 2008. I was finishing up my graduate degree in journalism at nyu, and I just remember that feeling of catastrophe, like, everything falling apart, wondering if I would ever get a job. And I think so much of the women of my generation felt. Felt that at the time. It was sort of this feeling of real catastrophe. And one of the ways in which we reacted to it was to sort of hustle harder, to use the modern term, like to have three jobs and to constantly be sort of thinking about how we could best promote ourselves, present ourselves, like just, if we could just grind hard enough, we would get a foot in the door and make it worthwhile. And I think that really made something like the girl boss movement. It just made us a little bit more susceptible to what it was, preaching these values, the idea that, you know, you just need to work the hardest and be relentless and lean in as hard as you can, things like that.

[Alison Stewart]

That chapter is the one that I like the most.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Thank you. If I can say that.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, please, let's talk to Taylor. Hi, Taylor, thanks so much for calling all of it.

[Taylor]

Hi, thank you for having me. So I was born in 2000. I started modeling in New York City around 2018. And I really noticed the culture that our author is describing of girl against girl. And it was really preyed on by agents and trainers and anyone who had any success from young models work. So I find myself, no matter how far I get from that industry, I'm thankful enough that I'm no longer in it. I still have deeply internalized misogyny. It seems to be like my base to go back to. So I wondered how our author, if she deals with internalized misogyny and how she works against that.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh, Taylor, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I mean, fashion, first of all, you.

[Alison Stewart]

Write books about it, you speak out about it.

[Sophie Gilbert]

I do. I do try to write books about it. I do. I mean, the nice thing about simply getting older, I'm 42 now, is you just don't care as much. Like, it's just. You just feel like it's just not as important what the world thinks it. How you look and that actually how the world responds to the things that you say and the things that you think and the work that you put out sort of as you get older, just has more and more significance. But the fashion industry, it's just. It's been so tough. That whole chapter about fashion and the way that models were treated as just kind of faceless, nameless bodies and dehumanized in so many ways in so many of these shoots. It was. That was one of the more upsetting ones for me to research. So I'm sorry for your experiences. But I do. I know that from my own experience it does get better. It does get so much easier to love yourself and that's not to say I walk around every day being like, I look good today, but it is, I think what happens as we learn more and more about how constant the barrage of this kind of messaging is, it gets easier and easier to call it out and to reject it, especially to reject it when it's coming from our, from ourselves.

[Alison Stewart]

What's more important is that you feel good.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Not just you look good, but you feel good.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alison Stewart]

Where do you see hope? Where? Around us, in our culture, do you see hope? You might not, but I'm curious if there's any place that you think like, they're doing something right there.

[Sophie Gilbert]

I really do. I really do see hope in movies at the moment. Like, I was thinking about the Golden Globes earlier this year and how many women on the red carpet were in their 50s, 60s, even 70s, and they were nominated for roles that in some ways were the most interesting, the most complex, the most demanding of their lives. I think about Demi Moore with the substance and Nicole Kidman with Baby Girl. And there it's. For the longest time, there really weren't any stories about women in film. And so to have this real proliferation of stories, not just about women, but about real things that women go through like aging and beauty standards and motherhood and transitions into different eras of life, it. It feels so heartening to see the different range of stories and to see so many more female filmmakers being able to make their art. And I do, I believe, I sort of argue at the end of the book that if anything can save us, it will be stories, because I really do believe that they help define our imagination and our sense of worth in so many ways. And so that, I think, is hopefully an optimistic note.

[Listener]

The book is called Girl on Girl How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves. My guest has been Atlantic staff writer Sophie Gilbert. Sophie, thanks for calling.

[Alison Stewart]

I mean, thanks for joining us and.

[Listener]

Taking our callers questions and answers.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh, thank you so much for having me. And thank you everyone for calling. It was really great to hear to hear your perspective.

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