Diving Into the Modern Dictionary with Stefan Fatsis

Summary

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Title: Diving Into the Modern Dictionary with Stefan Fatsis
Date: November 14, 2025
Guest: Stefan Fatsis, author of Unabridged: The Thrill of and Threat to the Modern Dictionary

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Episode Overview

Alison Stewart hosts journalist and author Stefan Fatsis to discuss his new book, Unabridged: The Thrill of and Threat to the Modern Dictionary. The conversation explores the evolving role of dictionaries, the craft and philosophy of lexicography, the history and legacy of Noah Webster, user stories of dictionaries changing lives, societal debates over language and usage, the challenges posed by digital technology and artificial intelligence, and the enduring cultural resonance of the dictionary.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Behind the Scenes at Merriam-Webster

• Access as an “In-Training Lexicographer”

  • Stefan Fatsis gained full access to Merriam-Webster, even receiving a desk and key, allowing him an immersive experience among the lexicographers ([03:01–03:14]).
  • "I had written a long piece for Slate about Merriam's attempt to revise its 1961 unabridged dictionary... then made this pitch to let me inside as a lexicographer in training, to really understand from the experts how this happens.” – Stefan Fatsis [03:14]

• Atmosphere and Working Methods

  • Merriam-Webster’s editorial floor maintains a “no talking” policy, reminiscent of a library ([03:53–04:18]).
  • Editors historically compiled 16 million citation slips documenting word usage that fill metal filing cabinets ([04:47–05:49]).
  • There is concern about preservation—digitizing the slips versus the risk of fire or flood ([05:53–06:42]).

2. The Vision and Influence of Noah Webster

• Renaissance Figure and Culture-Shaper

  • Webster was influential in early America as an educator, publisher, and more ([07:39]).
  • Central belief: America needed its own distinct English, and language was foundational to national identity ([07:39–09:28]).

• Religious Influence on Lexicography

  • Webster's Calvinist faith colored many definitions in the 1828 edition, sometimes including biblically inspired definitions and examples ([09:40–10:42]).

• Inclusivity and Americanization

  • The 1828 dictionary included uniquely American words and reflected contemporary American life, setting a standard for lexicographic inclusivity ([10:52–11:47]).

3. The Lifelong Impact of Dictionaries: Caller Stories

• Language as Liberation and Opportunity

  • Eddie from Manhattan shares a moving story of how a dictionary in prison dramatically changed his life.

    "Without understanding of language and of words, I would never have gotten this far in life. ...I owe my life to that dictionary. And I still have it. It should be museum piece under glass." – Eddie (Caller) [11:55–13:05]

  • Fatsis responds:

    "Oh, my God, I'm shaking. … In many ways, that's exactly what the publishers of American dictionaries intended." – Stefan Fatsis [12:55–13:05]

• Personal and Educational Milestones

  • Mary Ellen from Florida recounts winning a Merriam-Webster dictionary in a spelling bee:

    "Talking about rubbing salt in the wound anyway, but I just love that." – Mary Ellen (Caller) [15:14–16:11]

  • Dictionaries become longstanding personal artifacts with deep meaning ([30:26–30:58]).

4. Lexicographic Philosophy: Descriptive vs. Prescriptive

• How Words Get in the Dictionary

  • Fatsis describes contributing nearly 90 definitions, balancing hot-button terms (“microaggressions,” “safe space,” etc.) and playful entries (“sheeple”, “dogpile”) ([14:04–15:06]).
  • On slang, he notes that Merriam-Webster tends to wait for slang to become established before inclusion, utilizing online portals for emergent language ([24:14–25:43]).

• Navigating Language Change and Controversy

  • The controversy over the 1961 edition’s “descriptivist” (reflecting actual usage) approach and public backlash ([24:14–25:43]).
  • Caller complaints about usage drift (“hone in on” vs “home in on,” “literally” meaning “figuratively,” “irregardless” as a word), and Fatsis’ explanation that dictionaries reflect language as used, providing guidance but not authority ([28:06–29:43]):

    “Dictionaries are descriptive. They attempt to catalog the way that people use language and reflect it. So if usage changes over the decades, the dictionary's obligation is to reflect that.” – Stefan Fatsis [28:54–29:43]

5. The Dictionary in the Age of AI and Changing Media

• AI, Copyright, and the Value of Scholarly Definition

  • With AI engines scraping dictionary data without attribution, companies like Merriam-Webster (and parent Encyclopedia Britannica) are suing over copyright ([18:19–20:26]).
  • Fatsis advises users to look for definitions directly from dictionary publishers for accuracy and quality ([19:45–20:26]).

• Clever Marketing for Print Dictionaries

  • Discussion of Merriam-Webster’s new print dictionary as a “counterweight” to AI:

    (Mock ad voice) “This LLM has over 217,000 rigorously defined parameters. It never hallucinates, it does not require a data center, and uses no electricity. ...There’s artificial intelligence and there’s actual intelligence.”* – (Merriam-Webster ad, paraphrased by Stewart & Fatsis) [20:39–21:12]

  • Print dictionaries evoke nostalgia, like vinyl records, and retain appeal despite digital convenience ([21:12–22:16]).

6. Slurs, Harmful Terms, and Cultural Responsibility

• Lexicographic Handling of Slurs

  • Fatsis details Merriam-Webster's evolving approach to documenting and labeling slurs, such as the N-word ([25:43–28:01]).

    “They handle them in what they like to believe is an academic way... There's no denying that slurs are a part of culture—a deeply offensive part of culture, but a part of culture. People go to the dictionary to get answers. They want authority. ...The N word is one of the most looked up words in the dictionary online." – Stefan Fatsis [26:14]

  • Editors’ identities (historically, “white men with PhDs”) influenced how words were handled, with major updates to harmful terms only occurring more recently ([27:15–28:01]).

7. The Art and Challenge of Writing Definitions

• Journalist vs. Lexicographer
  • Fatsis describes the tension between storytelling (journalism style) and the invisible neutrality sought in dictionary writing ([31:08–32:37]).

    "The lexicographer's job is to write something that is almost invisible... All you're focused on is, is the meaning precise and are the examples benign? You don't want to offend." – Stefan Fatsis [31:11–32:37]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Power of Dictionaries

  • "I owe my life to that dictionary. And I still have it. It should be museum piece under glass." – Eddie (Caller), [12:58]

• On the Philosophy of Inclusion

  • “Noah establishes this sort of precedent that language should be inclusive and it should describe the way people use it.” – Stefan Fatsis, [11:09]

• On Modern Lexicography’s Challenges

  • "Every media company, and Merriam Webster is really just a media company, is going to face this issue of what do you do with the paper?" – Stefan Fatsis, [05:53]

• On AI and Copyright

  • “AI seems to have crawled Merriam's data and this is the source of a lawsuit. … At the same time, they don't want chatgpt and other bots stealing their proprietary work.” – Stefan Fatsis, [18:37–20:26]

• On Language Change and Frustration

  • "Because now when I look it up, I see that they're also accepting hone in, which means I don't win an argument." – Caller Riley, [28:41]

• On the Lexicographer’s Mission

  • "The goal of the dictionary is to, you know, you want to pick up this book or open this website and not think who did this, but just that it exists. It's almost like this magical product that was given to us to help explain language and society and culture, when in fact it is the work of the assiduous work of expert linguists and lexicographers. Hard, hard work." – Stefan Fatsis, [32:11–32:37]

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Noteworthy Segments with Timestamps

• [03:07–04:36] – Fatsis recounts gaining intimate access to Merriam-Webster and describes the library-like, silent environment.
• [07:39–09:28] – Detailed look at Noah Webster's life, motivations, and contributions to American English.
• [11:55–13:05] – Eddie’s story: A life transformed through accessing the dictionary while incarcerated.
• [14:04–15:06] – Fatsis on defining words for Merriam-Webster and how definitions are chosen and written.
• [18:19–20:26] – Debate over AI, dictionary copyright, and the importance of proper attribution.
• [21:12–22:16] – Discussion of the role of print dictionaries in an AI world; reference to Merriam-Webster’s clever marketing.
• [25:43–28:01] – Handling of slurs and evolving responsibility in documenting offensive language.
• [28:06–29:43] – Caller frustrations with changing definitions and Fatsis’ explanation of “descriptive” lexicography.
• [31:08–32:37] – Fatsis discusses the unique challenges and philosophy behind writing definitions steeped in neutrality.

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Summary

The episode gives listeners an insightful, humane, and sometimes emotional look at the world of dictionaries—from their creation, philosophy, and history, to the cultural meanings and personal impacts they engender. Stefan Fatsis’ access to Merriam-Webster brings rare perspectives on how definitions get made, how language is preserved and evolves, and the ripple effects of technology and society on one of humanity’s oldest forms of knowledge curation. The stories from callers, combined with Fatsis’ expertise, reinforce the dictionary’s role as more than a reference—it is a living cultural artifact and personal lodestone.

Episode verdict: Essential listening for word lovers, cultural historians, and anyone fascinated by the crossroads of language, technology, and society.

Transcript

[Announcer]

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[Becky Milligan]

It's 1972. A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes. Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds. All they have left is a life raft and each other. This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan. Listen to Adrift, an Apple Original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here on today's show. We have two documentaries to discuss. Maurice Smith joins us to talk about her documentary titled Steve Shapiro Being Everywhere. And from Doc nyc, we'll speak with Elizabeth Lowe, the director of the documentary Mistress Dispeller. Musician Sean Mason has a new album out and he is here to play some live music in WNYC's Studio 5. That's the plan. So let's get this started with Stefan Faddis, the author of the new book Unabridged. According to Merriam Webster's a dictionary is a reference source in print or electronic form, containing words usually alphabetically arranged, along with information about their forms, pronunciations, functions, etymologies, meanings, and syntactic and idiomatic uses. But what happens when language starts shifting faster than the source is defining it? Journalist and author Stefan Thusis wanted to find out. His new book is called Unabridged the Thrill of and Threat to the Modern Dictionary. It makes sense because Stefan's previous book was Word Freak, which was about competitive Scrabble. He spent three years inside Merriam Webster, sitting with the lexicographers who debate new words and philosophize over definitions and and more recently, they figure out how to keep up with the Internet and artificial intelligence. All of this word work traces back to Noah Webster Jr. A man was absolutely convinced the United States needed its own English, not the British version. His 1828 dictionary, titled An American Dictionary of the English Language, became the backbone of every American dictionary that followed, including, you guessed it, Merriam Webster's Unabridged is a deeply reported look at this meticulous world. The book is out now and Stefan is here with me in studio. It is nice to talk to you again.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Good to see you, Alison.

[Alison Stewart]

So you spent all this time in Springfield, Massachusetts, at Merriam Webster. They even gave you a desk.

[Stefan Fatsis]

They did, which is big and a key.

[Alison Stewart]

And a key. What was your pitch to them to Convince them to give you just this full access.

[Stefan Fatsis]

I think there was interest on their part in having a journalist show what happens, how the sausage is made in language. I had written a long piece for Slate magazine about Merriam's attempt to revise its 1961 unabridged dictionary. This massive 2,700 page definitive work that hadn't been touched since 1960, 1961. And they were doing this project online. So I wrote about that and then made this pitch to let me inside. But to let me inside as a lexicographer in training, to really understand from the experts how this happens.

[Alison Stewart]

What was it like inside?

[Stefan Fatsis]

It was super fun. I mean, it was very quiet is what it's like inside. It's really a library atmosphere. Since that 1961 book, there was the editor of that book, a guy named Philip Gove, instituted a sort of de facto no talking policy on the editorial floor.

[Alison Stewart]

There were no it's so funny place about words. There's no talking.

[Stefan Fatsis]

No talking. We're writing, we're creating definitions. And there were free for decades when telephones on desks were a thing in offices. There were no telephones at Merriam Webster. There was a little telephone booth on the main editorial floor. And if you wanted to make an outside call, you had to go into it and log your call.

[Alison Stewart]

What did being surrounded by all of those citations teach you about how American English actually evolves?

[Stefan Fatsis]

You mentioned citations. Citations are these little slips of paper on which editors through the 20th century and earlier compiled examples of the usage of specific words. And those would go into this file called the consolidated files. And then when it was time to define a word, editors would pull out a little stack of sites they're called and compose a definition based on that. There are 16 million slips of these paper, of these little. Of this paper on Miriam's editorial floor in these sort of shoulder high metal filing cabinets. It's sort of overwhelming and it's awesome in the literal sense of that word. It you open any drawer and you are witnessing the evolution of American language, but also American history. It's sort of a chronicle of the 20th century until Miriam started doing everything digitally. But the 19th century, you want to know about it?

[Alison Stewart]

It's in those filing cabinets and they haven't been digitized.

[Stefan Fatsis]

No. One of my fears, and I brought this up with the publisher of Merriam Webster, was that at some point, you know, every media company, and Merriam Webster is really just a media company, is going to face this issue of what do you do with the paper? And Miriam has accumulated tons of paper, not just these citation slips. And it seemed to me like digitizing these 16 million slips was a no brainer. But it's costly. I tried to connect Mariam with someone from Google who was willing to do it, but it just has never gotten off the ground. And like a lot of paper lovers and sort of historical preservationists, I worry that something's gonna happen to this and this archive of the American language could be lost.

[Alison Stewart]

Fire, flood, any. Anything could take them.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Well, interesting you should say that, Allison. There are no sprinklers in the ceiling at Merriam Webster because the fear is that water would do more damage to the citation files than fire would to the metal filing cabinets, which was supposed to be fireproof.

[Alison Stewart]

I am talking to Stefan Fatsis. We're talking about his new book, the Thrill of and Threat to the Modern Dictionary. Do you have a question for Stefan? Give us a call. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Or tell us how you use a dictionary. Do you own one? Are they important to you? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. You can call in, you can join us on the air, or you can text. Well, let's go back to Noah Webster Jr.

[Stefan Fatsis]

The man.

[Alison Stewart]

When you look at the historical record, how would you describe him?

[Stefan Fatsis]

One of the most influential figures in early America. He was a sort of revolutionary. Little young to be part of the revolution, but he was involved in the political life of the early country. He was an educator. He was a newspaper publisher. He was a sort of lay scientist or researcher. He was a politician. He helped start Amherst College. He was this Renaissance person. He was a controversial figure. He ran a newspaper in New York for many years. Newspapers were very political in the late 18th century, so he had lots of enemies. People frequently derided him. But at the same time, he had this vision about what America should be, that it needed its own national identity. And at the core of national identity for the young country was having a national language apart from what the British had imported to what the British had exported to our shores. And Noah attacked that from his. From a very young age, his 20s, he wrote these tracts about how language should change, how it should be Americanized. And that included not just getting rid of, like our spellings and re at the end of center or theater and getting the K off of music and other words, which really did simplify the language and Americanizing it its own way. He was also an advocate for phonetic spelling. So Noah wanted to change the spelling of soup to S o o p and opaque to opaque and dozens of other things tung T u n G which kind of made sense. Some of those he, he put in his very first dictionary in 1806. Took a lot out of them for the 1828 dictionary after he got backlash. But some of them do live on. He did change language in that way as well.

[Alison Stewart]

He said he was struck by the.

[Announcer]

Voice of God and he turned to his Calvinist faith. How did his religious awakening influence the way he defined words?

[Stefan Fatsis]

It had two effects. One was that he paused compiling, working on what would be the 1828 dictionary for about a decade because he went down this 10 year rabbit hole to try to prove this flawed and, and wrong theory that all language was devoted from one language in the Bible. But his, his religious beliefs influenced almost every page of his 1828 dictionary. And what you will see are definitions that reflect that, that sort of religious, that have religious overtones. The examples he often cites were biblical and ignoring contemporary writing. So it didn't overwhelm the dictionary. It wasn't a, it wasn't a critical component of the dictionary. But that 1828 book is still used by, by, by Christian fundamentalists today as a preferred book. In some cases it is promoted and it is sold by by some Christian groups.

[Announcer]

His major dictionary came out when he was about 70 years old. First of all, it was two volumes.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Right.

[Announcer]

How was it received when it was published?

[Stefan Fatsis]

Much better than the 1806 dictionary. It was much bigger, it was much more authoritative, it had much more contemporary language. Noah was adamant about pulling from culture. So words that came from or were derived from Native American life, plants and animals that were only found on the continent. Aspects of commercial Life Savings Bank. A lot of political words, Noah, that were created by Americans, he included. So Noah establishes this sort of precedent that land should be inclusive and it should describe the way people use it. Which was a principle that was followed by for generations of Merriam Webster publishers up until today. So it was hailed as an American masterwork. And Noah got the kind of recognition late in his life that he felt he was denied for his other pursuits earlier in his life.

[Announcer]

Are you ready for some calls?

[Stefan Fatsis]

Let's do it.

[Announcer]

Let's talk to Eddie who is calling in from Manhattan. Hi Eddie, thank you so much for calling all of it. Hi.

[Eddie (Caller)]

Sure. Okay, so here it goes. About 50 years ago I did seven years in prison. And in order to pass the time besides exercise, I wanted to read. But Every other word in the book was unknown to me. So I had a friend bring in a dictionary, Merriam Webston Dictionary. And that book has changed my life.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Wow.

[Eddie (Caller)]

Without understanding of language and of words, I would never have gotten this far in life. I wound up opening up a legitimate construction company. I made millions of dollars. I also opened up a sanctuary that rescued animals, cats, dogs and pigs. And without that, without the tool of language, I would never gotten anywhere.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Oh, my God, I'm shaking.

[Eddie (Caller)]

I owe my life to that dictionary. And I still have it. It should be museum piece under glass.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Oh, my God, I am moved by that, Ed. And that's an incredible story. And in many ways, that's exactly what the publishers of American dictionaries intended. Merriam Webster marketed its books for generations as these tools for improving yourself and living a better, more complete life. Giving yourself a chance to advance in society and overcome whatever circumstances that existed. Whether that was a story like Ed's or whether you were an immigrant. I mean, my little dictionary story is that my father was an immigrant from Greece after World War II. And I have this lovely leather bound Merriam Webster dictionary inscribed by him in 1949.

[Announcer]

This is directly related to my next text. It says, stefan, what was your favorite word to learn when you went into the dictionary building, whether from reading or talking to someone?

[Stefan Fatsis]

Ooh, that's a great question. I mean, I think that it's less about learning words. It was more about how can I find words that need to be included in the dictionary? Because part of what I did was define words. I drafted about 90 definitions for Merriam Webster during my time there and about, and 14 of them have been included, added to the online dictionary, including some politically important words at the time and still microaggressions. Safe space, alt. Right. So I wanted to work on these sort of hot button words that were important, that needed to be in the book. And at the same time, I was also defining fun things like sheeple and dogpile and headbutt sort of words from my background as a sports writer that I felt needed to also be included in the book. So I really was. It was less about, like, learning crazy words than it was about being focused on doing the work and understanding what it takes to do that work. And it was really hard work, I discovered.

[Announcer]

Let's talk to Mary Ellen in Clearwater, Florida. Hi, Mary Ellen. Thank you for making the time to call all of it.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Thank you.

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

And thank you for your show. I love your show. And Brian Lehrer, longtime New Yorker. I live in Florida now. But in April 1975, my family was living in Chatham County, North Carolina. I had won the spelling bee for my middle school. So I was representing the school at the Chatham county level spelling bee, the winner of whom would go on to represent the county in the state spelling bee. And I came in second. And my reward, my gift as the second place winner. I'm reading it right now. The inscription was a Merriam Webster dictionary, a Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. Talking about rubbing salt into the wound anyway, but I just love that. And I was looking to see what year it was. And it was published. From it was a 1973 edition of the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. That's my spelling bee story.

[Stefan Fatsis]

And the spelling bee has always been a Merriam Webster. They use Merriam Webster's Unabridged Dictionary. So the big fat book. So when you're watching the spelling bee finals on tv, that's the source for the words in the dictionary. That's a wonderful story, too. I mean, the Collegiate Dictionary was a bestseller, like New York Times bestseller for months and months and months, years in the, in the 1980s and 90s. I mean, it was a foundational book. And its decline. They, it hadn't the 11th edition, published in 2003, up until this month, was the last print version of that book. Merriam Webster rolled out a print dictionary that publishes actually the next week, as you know, not because we need a print dictionary, but because it is, in a way, become this throwback item. It's kind of like vinyl records. It has an appeal to people who still love the idea of paging through this, this, this book of knowledge and letting your brain wander from one word to the other and having this sort of serendipity of finding one word when you're looking up another.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking to journalist and author Stefan Fatsis to discuss his book the Thrill of and the Threat to the Modern Dictionary. When we come back, we'll talk pronouns, we'll talk slurs, and we'll talk ChatGPT. You're listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Stefan Fatsis. We're discussing his new book, the Thrill of and the Threat to the Modern Dictionary. If you'd like to weigh in or you have a question for Stefan, give us a call. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Or tell us how you use dictionaries. Do you own one? Are they important to you? 212-433-9692. Let's talk to Rob from my hometown of Glenridge, New Jersey. Hi Rob.

[Rob (Caller)]

Hey, how are you doing? I was wondering, do dictionary makers have enough swing to enforce AI engines to properly attribute them? Or also when, you know, students, ask them for a definition to give the full version and not dilute any of the immense amount of scholarship that goes.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Into their definitions as of now. And that's a great question. No, I'll give you one example. I have a chapter in Unabridged about artificial intelligence. And one of the things I did is I took some of the words that I defined And I asked ChatGPT to write definitions in the Merriam Web, you know, style of Merriam Webster. And one of the words I gave it was microaggression. And it parried, it parroted back the definition pretty much verbatim. So AI seems to have crawled Miriam's data and this is the source of a lawsuit. Already Mariam's parent company, Encyclopedia Britannica has filed lawsuits against some of the purveyors of these large language models in an attempt to rein back because the dictionary companies, like other media companies, are in this face this dilemma. On the one hand they, it's, they want to use AI Mariam has. If you go to Merriam Webster's website, there is an AI assistant that you can use for dictionary related information. At the same time, they don't want chatgpt and other bots stealing their proprietary work. So I would advise people to scroll down below the AI generated definition and scroll down even below the licensed definition that Google sometimes throws up at the top of their search page, which might be 50 or 70 or 100 years old, and go down to the actual dictionary company, whether it's Merriam Webster or a British dictionary like the OED or Collins. And this is the threat part to dictionaries. They need people going to the website and clicking on their definitions to generate traffic and be able to charge advertisers for revenue. It's a, it's a competitive media business.

[Alison Stewart]

As you mentioned, the new dictionary is set to be released on the 18th of this month. And if you go to Merriam Webster's social media page, there's this amazing ad targeting AI. Let's listen.

[Stefan Fatsis]

It is the dawn of the AI era and we are proud to introduce our latest large language model. This LLM has over 217,000 rigorously defined parameters. It never hallucinates, it does not require a data center and uses no electricity. It's a powerful tool that will take change how you communicate forever. There's artificial intelligence and there's actual intelligence.

[Alison Stewart]

And it's a big picture of a dictionary.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Yes, Spinning. Spinning dictionary. The ad itself, the visual is great because they really did a wonderful job of making it look like a modern Silicon Valley promo ad with this hard tag at the end. And it is an effective piece of marketing because the book has it all. What the book doesn't have is the ease. And the book doesn't have the ability to incorporate audio, video and have this complete website. It's harder to use. Let's be honest. In some ways, the Internet is a much better delivery system for a dictionary. But when you market the dictionary as this, this, this counterweight against the onslaught of AI, which a lot of people are offended by and troubled by, and at the same time, you promote the dictionary as this, as I was saying, this, this throwback product, that's a pretty effective way of hammering home the point that this book still matters.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Daniel, who is calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Daniel, thank you for making the time to call all of it.

[Rob (Caller)]

Hi, yeah, I'm a collector of antique dictionary. I've got about a dozen, mainly the large format. One next to me right now in my room is the Webster New International Dictionary from 1961. My favorite of all is the Collegiate Webster from 1934. And that in the beginning of it, even has many words that they were using in Scotland at the time. But it is wonderful. I love reading archaic words that they don't use and even using them on people sometimes when they give you crazy looks. But my one beef I do have, and I know my college professor was the same way, is how quickly today we want to include slang words into our dictionary. In the past, it was always things that had to be used for quite some time. And we'll just say it was accepted by society that it was using, not ones that would come and go. I know my professor in college, it used to just drive him crazy and he would predict words that would disappear and he was pretty accurate. This was a long time ago, but he's pretty accurate.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you so much for calling. Let's talk to Jim from Ocean County, New Jersey. Hi, Jim, thanks for calling all of it. Hey, Jim, are you there? Not going to talk to Jim. We'll talk to Anna from Westchester. Hi, Anna. Can't get Anna. Anna's there. There you are.

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

Just wanted to give a shout out to Webster's, Webster's second unabridged, which I have open at all times in my house. And consult very regularly.

[Stefan Fatsis]

You're one of those people, huh?

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. It's got great etymologies in particular, it's interesting.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you want to.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Yeah, I mean, two things. One, I'll go with Anna's comment because there are people that still cling to this 1934 dictionary as a real standard of American usage. The 1961 dictionary that followed it was perceived as this very permissive document. It was descriptivist. It, it seemed to sanction. At least that's the way people interpreted it. Usage that was substandard or non standard. A lot of that was overblown. But the reaction to this 1961 book, which I get into in some detail and on a bridge, was kind of remarkable. Like the dictionary became the focal point of this culture war. It went viral. These complaints about this book as being permissive. It prompted other publishers to create new dictionaries like the American Heritage Dictionary that were a direct reaction to the 1961 book. And as to the slang question, that's a really interesting observation. I will say this. Places like Merriam Webster don't tend to admit new slang until it has been sort of firmly established. But what companies do need to do like Merriam is find a way for people to have access to definitions that they are curious about. So Merriam has created a slang portal on its website, sort of a way station for words. They can put them in there and then when they maybe graduate to accepted full usage over a longer period of time, they can get in the main data.

[Announcer]

You tackle a lot of tough topics. And we've been talking about the 1934 edition and the 1961 edition. We have to talk about slurs. Slurs in the book, the N word, another deeply offensive slur targeting indigenous women. And there are these folders there with information at Miriam and they're inside these cabinets. It's gonna be hard to get into. But how did it show you how Miriam handled words that carrie real harm. And they have history.

[Stefan Fatsis]

They handle them in what they like to believe is an academic way. There's no denying that slurs are a part of culture. A deeply offensive part of culture, but a part of culture. People go to the dictionary to get answers. They want authority. They want to understand what things mean. The N word is one of the most looked up words in the dictionary online. And there Miriam has ways of tracking this, obviously. And I was interested in how the dictionary sort of documented the evolution of the use of words of slurs and also how culture changed its views. And you find that with, in my research, with terms like the N word, the former name of the former nickname of the Washington football team, you go through those citation files and you see on these little slips of paper the way that editors try to grapple with how to label words and how to define them.

[Announcer]

Because the N word didn't necessarily have like a pejorative next to it.

[Stefan Fatsis]

It did not at the very beginning. Sometimes it was written as derogatory. There were other labels. And you can see from dictionary to dictionary, I was able to see how the editor sort of came to terms with what to do about this word. And you had to remember that, that editors at a place like Merriam Webster for most of the 20th century were white, white men with PhDs often. And I really found it fascinating to see how the, the, the, the, the, the way that these, these, these explosive terms were handled and the changes, some of these changes to try to make them more reflective of what the word, how the word is used didn't happen until like the last 10 years.

[Announcer]

Let's talk to Riley on line six. Hi, Riley, thanks for calling all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi.

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

So I'll just get right into my issue, and that is that the dictionary does change definitions, I guess because when misuse is done so often they just give up. And my specific example is the.

[Barbara (Caller)]

Moot.

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

More I'm hearing people use mute instead.

[Barbara (Caller)]

Of moot and hone in on something. Hone means sharpened.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Right.

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

And what they're trying to say is hone in.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Right.

[Mary Ellen (Caller)]

That makes. Because now when I look it up, I see that they're also accepting hone in, which means I don't win an argument.

[Announcer]

Thank you for your call.

[Stefan Fatsis]

I'm so sorry for you losing those arguments. The way dictionaries try to handle terms and words like the ones you cited and others like literally to mean figuratively or the use of irregardless is to recognize how they are actually used by humans. Dictionaries are descriptive. They attempt to catalog the way that people use language and reflect it. So if usage changes over the decades, the dictionary's obligation is to reflect that. And Miriam tends to handle this by writing notes that explain that, you know, people think that irregardless is a non standard word. In fact, there's been debate about this for more than a century. And here's some background about how that's happened.

[Alison Stewart]

That one hurts, though. Let's talk, let's talk to Barbara in Forest Hills. Hi Barbara, thanks for calling all of us.

[Barbara (Caller)]

Hi, great segment. I just wanted to say that in 1992, I was given as a birthday present by my then boyfriend, who's long gone. The Random House Dictionary. Sorry, it's not Merriam Webster of the English language. It's only 2,400 pages long plus, and the inscription was say the word and you'll be free. Say the word and be like me. Say the word I'm thinking of. And you know the word is love. See page 1139. And it's love.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Oh, sweet. Oh my God. I love that dictionaries have this power over us. I still have my battered, taped up Webster's New World Dictionary that my mom gave to me on my 11th birthday. And this was in. I'm gonna give my age away here in 1974. I've carried this around with me my entire life. I used it high school, college, into my career as a journalist. And it means a lot to me to have this, like, it means a lot to me to have that dictionary that my father bought.

[Alison Stewart]

I wanted to ask you as a journalist, because you write that your journalist side and your inner lexicographer side. Can you say it for me?

[Stefan Fatsis]

Lexicographer.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you. They were battling.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Why was that? What was going on?

[Stefan Fatsis]

Well, the journalist wants to tell a story and what. And really use. Wonderful. The best example you can find. Right. The most colorful, full bodied thing that will grab the reader. The lexicographer's job is to write something that is almost invisible that you look at and you don't wonder who wrote it. You don't think about the content. All you're sort of focused on is, is the meaning precise and are the examples benign? You don't want to offend. I wrote, I used an example sentence to define in my definition of the word sheeple. That was a review of an Apple iPhone case that implied that Apple users were sheeple. And it went viral and my editor said he made a mistake. I shouldn't have allowed that to go through. We're trying to not offend anyone politically, culturally, economically. The goal of the dictionary is to, you know, you want to pick up this book or open this website and not think who did this, but just that it exists. It's almost like this magical product that was given to us to help explain language and society and culture, when in fact it is the work of the assiduous work of expert linguists and lexicographers. Hard, hard work.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the book is the Thrill of and Threat to the Modern Dictionary. My guest has been author Stefan Fatsis. Thank you for coming to the studio.

[Stefan Fatsis]

Thank you, Alison. It's been a pleasure. With stays under $250 a night, VRBO makes it easy to celebrate sweater weather. Book a cabin with leaf views or a home with a fire pit for nights with friends with stays under $250 a night, find a home for your exact needs. Book [e-mail] and now a next level.

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